Economist on Islam and homosexuality

Ershad

Junior Member
:salam2:

Not sure if this should go here or in the Islamophobia section. The Economist was as far as I know only western news agency which didn't do Islam bashing so far. What has economics and business to do with homosexuality anyway?

If you are not sure what I am ranting about, here is another reason why my colleagues will call me a "Narrow-minded extremist":

Straight but narrow

A debate about homosexuality in Islam is beginning. But in Muslim lands persecution—and hypocrisy—are still rife

ONE leaflet showed a wooden doll hanging from a noose and suggested burning or stoning homosexuals. “God Abhors You” read another. A third warned gays: “Turn or Burn”. Three Muslim men who handed out the leaflets in the English city of Derby were convicted of hate crimes on January 20th. One of them, Kabir Ahmed, said his Muslim duty was “to give the message”.

That message—at least in the eyes of religious purists— is uncompromising condemnation. Of the seven countries that impose the death penalty for homosexuality, all are Muslim. Even when gays do not face execution, persecution is endemic. In 2010 a Saudi man was sentenced to 500 lashes and five years in jail for having sex with another man. In February last year, police in Bahrain arrested scores of men, mostly other Gulf nationals, at a “gay party”. Iranian gay men are typically tried on other trumped-up charges. But in September last year three were executed specifically for homosexuality. (Lesbians in Muslim countries tend to have an easier time: in Iran they are sentenced to death only on the fourth conviction.)

Gay life in the open in Muslim-majority countries is rare, but the closet is spacious. Countries with fierce laws, such as Saudi Arabia, also have flourishing gay scenes at all levels of society. Syria’s otherwise fearsome police rarely arrest gays. Sibkeh park in Damascus is a tree-filled children’s playground during the day. By night it is known for the young men who linger on its benches or walls. Wealthy Afghans buy bachabazi, (dancing boys) as catamites.

Where laws are gentler, authorities find other ways to crack down. In the Jordanian capital, Amman, several gay hangouts have been raided or closed on bogus charges, such as serving alcohol illegally. Even where homosexuality is legal (as in Turkey), official censure can be fierce. A former minister for women’s affairs, Aliye Kavaf, called it “a disease”; the interior minister, Idris Naim Sahin, cited it (along with Zoroastrianism and eating pork) as an example of “dishonour, immorality and inhuman situations”. A new film, “Zenne Dancer”, portrays a young man’s murder in 2008 as Turkey’s first gay “honour killing” (the suspect, the victim’s father, is on the run).

Charges of homosexuality can also be used in political repression. The Malaysian opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim, was twice tried for sodomy; the attorney-general is appealing against the latest acquittal. Intolerance can unite otherwise warring factions. In Nigeria Muslims and conservative Christians alike back a proposed law banning gay marriage (and indirectly criminalising all same-sex unions).

The democratic upheavals of the Arab spring have brought little comfort. Hossein Alizadeh of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, a New York-based lobby group, says that religious awakening is strengthening hardline interpretations of Islam and a repressive backlash on all kinds of sex-related issues. But the laws left behind by the former regimes in countries such as Tunisia and Egypt seem draconian enough to satisfy the new governments.

An ominous counter-example is Iraq. The previous Iraqi regime was politically repressive but unbothered by sexual mores. Now men even suspected of being gay face kidnappings, rape, torture and extrajudicial killing. Ali Hili, head of a group called Iraqi LGBT, (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender) says that since the 2003 invasion more than 700 people have been killed because of their sexuality. It is the most dangerous place in the world for sexual minorities, he says.

Theology or technology


One small source of hope is the internet: life online offers gays safety, secrecy and the chance to make their case. In a campaign called “We are everywhere” Iranian gays and lesbians are posting protest videos on Facebook. In one, entitled “Ali the Queer”, a man speaks of his longing for a world in which those who deviate from the heterosexual standard are no longer considered unnatural or abnormal. However, a video newly posted from the United Arab Emirates shows an effeminate gay man being “cured” by two straight men.

The internet also offers a chance to debate the fundamental issue: the Islamic prohibition of homosexuality. This is based on a tale (common to all three Abrahamic religions, though details differ) of a man called Lot and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. These were engulfed in fire and brimstone as divine punishment for the local penchant for gay sex.

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Earlier Islamic societies were less hardline. An 11th-century Persian ruler advised his son to alternate his partners seasonally: young men in the summer and women in the winter. Many of the love poems of the eighth-century Abu Nuwas in Baghdad, and of other Persian and Urdu poets, were addressed to boys. In medieval mystic writings, particularly Sufi texts, it is unclear whether the beloved being addressed is a teenage boy or God, providing a quasi-religious sanction for relationships between men and boys. Austere European chroniclers fumed at the indulgent attitudes to gay sex in the Caliphs’ courts (now the censure is the other way).

Like liberal Jewish and Christian scholars in recent decades, some Muslim thinkers are now finding theological latitude. “The Koran does not condemn homosexuality,” says Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle, an American Muslim convert who teaches Islamic studies at Emory University in Atlanta. The story of Lot, he argues, deals with male rape and violence, not homosexuality in general. Classical Islamic theologians and jurists were mostly concerned with stifling lustful immorality, he says. Koranic verses describe without condemnation men who have no sexual desire for women.

Arash Naraghi, an Iranian academic at Moravian College in Pennsylvania, suggests that the verses decrying homosexuality, like those referring to slavery and Ptolemaic cosmology, stem from common beliefs at the time of writing, and should be re-examined. Even Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, the late spiritual leader of Lebanon’s Hizbullah party-cum-militia, conceded that more research is needed in order to understand homosexuality.

Unsurprisingly, the debate, such as it is, is led by gay Muslims outside the Islamic world. Though their rights are better protected, they too can suffer from intolerance—as the trial in Derby last month highlighted. In European cities with lots of poor, pious Muslim immigrants, municipal politics brings some rum alliances. Ken Livingstone, a left-wing London politician with a strong record on gay rights, has in the past welcomed Yusuf al-Qaradawi, an America-bashing Muslim cleric from Egypt who supports the death penalty for homosexuality.

In Muslim countries activists have mostly shied away from the pitfalls of theological debate. Instead, groups such as Helem, a Lebanese NGO, use the secular language of human rights, citing United Nations declarations. Mr Alizadeh sees progress, though it is slow. Even some Muslim clerics, the group most resistant to reform, are shifting slightly. After attacks on gay men in Iraq in 2009, Muqtada al-Sadr, a fiery Shia cleric, condemned the killings. He said that the “depravity” of homosexuality should indeed be eradicated, but through “preaching and guidance” rather than violence. Optimists would see that as progress, of a sort.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21546002

What irritates me more is so-called "muslim-scholars" (again!) trying to fabricate “The Koran does not condemn homosexuality” to make Islam politically acceptable for the kuffar.
 

strive-may-i

Junior Member
:wasalam:

Rumi said : "If you are irritated by every rub, how will you be polished?".. whats your take on this quote?

I fear ...incase you are keeping tab/chasing every source of irritation!!
 

Idris16

Junior Member
Man sodomising or getting sodomised is punishable by death in Islam. If they want to be homos, let them, but they should not practice sodomy at all.

One thing I want to mention are the countries with their (kufr) laws. Who gave them permission to legislate besides Allaah the Almighty? Did Allaah or the Prophet :saw: tell them to invent rules they wish?
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

There needs to be a change in the Muslim mindset. We do not need to apologize to anyone about Islam. I do not care what the kufr laws are..AND..

Are the opinions of those who do not bend their knees to Allah really of any concern to me. I am trying to strive for the Mercy of Allah, I am begging for the Mercy of Allah to forgive my multitude of sins so I can see His Promise..

and if He says it is a sin..I am going to yell, scream, dance, cry, sing and tell the simple Truth. It is out of His Mercy that He sent His Light and told us..folks..don't trip now. This is My Word. I am Your Lord..it is a sin.

No. two ways about it.
 

Perseveranze

Junior Member
This article is narrow minded.

1. In Muslim lands, they don't talk about homosexuality, they don't go around saying; "death to all homosexuals" and so on. It's not something people discuss in everyday life, like they do in the west.

2. Because homosexuality is so open in the west, it has caused alot of homophobia, resulting in many suicides. Far more homosexuals die in the west than they do in Muslim lands.

This is because under Shariah, what a person does in their privacy, be it homosexuality is his own business, and because of the "four witness rule", no one persecute them or say anything to them. If they invaded their privacy, they would get in trouble for "spying".

Ask Economist, in early Islamic history, where did Homosexuals get executed? If it ever happened, (which i havn't found) it would've been extremely rare.

On top of that, Homosexuality isn't sin, the sexual act is. If you're a homosexual, you wouldn't be hated or anything like that, because it's just how you are. You are seen as someone who's going through a big test by God, and aren't outcasted because of it.
 

Shak78

Junior Member
So in Pakistan if you are in the tribal areas you can still have sex with a boy if you are a man, yet some of these area's claim to be bastions of Islam...yea...no.
 

Mabsoot

Amir
Staff member
Assalamu Alaykum,

Its not suprising, the Economist is a well known Right leaning publication.
 

John Smith

Junior Member
Iv'e always considered Shirt Lifting a sin...period.

But i would ask a question..a freinds brother was abused in his childhood by his step uncle who convinced the young boy it was right and dont be afraid and dont tell anyone...the boy has grown to be a man but you would never guess he as slept withe men whilst married and he has to fight his demons which goes back to when he was abused.

Where do we stand on such issues? he knows its wrong and goes against what our creator has told us but he cannot breakaway from his torment in childhood.

Any advice would be appreciated to pass on.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

What you are asking goes back to the nature of rape. Why is rape such a heinous act. The act itself robs a person of their individuality. The victim becomes property of the abuser. An unspoken rule becomes the norm. The victim has to come to an understanding that it is not their fault. No-one asks to be raped. Yet, they have to carry the scar of the rape with them. Healing can only come about from the victim finding the strenght to forgive themselves. The victim has to declare themselves as free. It is a process. There is a fine line between pain and pleasure. The victim has to examine what that line in. Hope this makes sense.
 

John Smith

Junior Member
Assalaam walaikum,

What you are asking goes back to the nature of rape. Why is rape such a heinous act. The act itself robs a person of their individuality. The victim becomes property of the abuser. An unspoken rule becomes the norm. The victim has to come to an understanding that it is not their fault. No-one asks to be raped. Yet, they have to carry the scar of the rape with them. Healing can only come about from the victim finding the strenght to forgive themselves. The victim has to declare themselves as free. It is a process. There is a fine line between pain and pleasure. The victim has to examine what that line in. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks aapa,i will print of this post and pass it on to him,hope he gets benifit from it.
 
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