why there is no thread about the pope speech

[aiwa]

asalam allaikum brothers and sisters

What do u all think of the pope Benedictus's XVI speech, did he really mean to insult the prophet Mohamed (PEACE BE UPON HIM), OR Islam...
Was his apology convincing? Since he didn’t apologies publicly, instead another person quoted his apology.


thanx

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

My opinion and the facts on this matter.

asalam allaikum brothers and sisters

What do u all think of the pope Benedictus's XVI speech, did he really mean to insult the prophet Mohamed (PEACE BE UPON HIM), OR Islam...
Was his apology convincing? Since he didn’t apologies publicly, instead another person quoted his apology.


thanx

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

Bismillah...

Brothers and Sisters, indeed we have cause for concern regarding the Pope's comments a couple of weeks ago. I have a few comments to share regarding this matter, as I do read the news every single day and I was very disturbed by what Benny had to say. Here is a quote from a trustworthy Canadian newsmedia website, the CBC.ca:

[[When the Pope gave a speech in Germany on Tuesday, he quoted a a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor who said 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.' The reaction from Muslims around the world has been swift and furious. Yesterday, the Vatican issued a statement saying 'The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers.' Has he truly apologized - and will that be enough?]]

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Secondly, I am disgusted by his weak and pathetic apology. What I didn't quote is that the Pope actually said, in defense of himself, words to the effect of: Besides, I was only quoting a 14th century emperor and that those words don't reflect my own opinions. He said this. Uhm, okay - If those words didn't reflect his own opinions... Why would he say them?! I mean, seriously!! Cmon!? Obviously he agrees with them, otherwise the Pope wouldn't have included them in his speech to illustrate his point about how violence and religion should never go hand in hand. I would like to insult Benny at this point, but upon reflection of now being a Muslim I will say nothing except that I leave it to you (my Brothers and Sisters) to make your own judgement, and that I leave it to Allah to make the final and supreme judgement.

And my 2nd point flows nicely into my 3rd comment on all of this. Benny said that he was repulsed on how Muhammad SAW used the sword to spread Islam. Okay, but let's be fair and take a look at the history: Really, our Prophet (peace be upon him) only used the sword to defend the lives of the Muslims when fleeing Mekkah to Medina when the disbelievers were plotting all sorts of things against him, and while in Medina in self-defense. It's not like he went over to Iran and said, "You guys revert to Islam, or I'm gunna keel you!" No, this isn't the case and anyone who isn't an ignorant dungbeetle knows this.

HOWEVER (and yes, this is a BIG however) ... Let's take a trip down Memory Lane. Anyone remember the history of the Christian Church? Anyone? Good, because I do! It all started with the last Roman Emporer Constantine deciding that he was unable to control his empire from also worshipping "God"/"Jehovah"/"Allah" so he was better off just accepting Christianity. Infact, not only did he accept it but he made it a thing that was mandatory across the whole of his empire (for tax reasons, too). If you weren't a Christian, you were an Infidel, a Heretic!! And indeed he commissioned the Roman Catholic Church to begin a whole new chapter of cruelty in human history. We had the dreaded "Confessors", the "Inquisitors" (a little later), and a whole Roman army dedicated to invading any country that didn't accept Constantine's views of Christianity. Anyone remember the "heretics" being burned alive at the stake? Anyone remember the "Christian Soldiers" who would crucify the unbelievers, all across Europe and even elsewhere? Forgive me for discomforting you, my dearest Brothers and Sisters, but the fact of the matter is that it was the Christians who spread religion by the sword! Far more than Muhammad (peace be upon him) or (to my knowledge) any other group of Muslims since!

There is one last point I'd like to make about Constantine, and I believe it reflects a great deal of truth about his mind. It is recorded in history that right at the very end of his life, just before he was about to die that he suddenly insisted on getting baptized. I believe that we Muslims know about baptism with water, because I know John the Baptist is meantioned in the Qu'ran. Basically, it's something that Christians are compelled to do; something that seals your bond with God, and forgives you of any sins you might have commited before swearing your heart over to Christ and to God. He did this right at the very last days of his life. Why? I'll tell you why - Because he had a guilty conscience! Because he was compelled to do whatever he could to make peace with God. Otherwise he would have done it years before. No, this was an act of desparation. Ponder that for a while.

My dearest Brothers and Sisters, I am not saying these things to you in the hopes that you will hate Christians. I am telling you this so that you know the Hak, the truth. Pity the ignorant Christians, but do not hate them. Not even Benny is to blame, because he's just a guy filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was etc. etc. etc. The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers. I was a Christian for 15 years (yes I know I keep telling you this, but it's the truth) and I always had a heart to serve and please God - All it took was for me to use my rational brain, to put together the facts for myself, and to accept the encouragement of YOU people here at TTI as well as the knowledge this website posseses.

Alhamdulilah

So to answer your questions, Sister Aiwa: Yes he really meant to insult our Prophet SAW, but also to insult the intelligence of the whole world community. Yes he was insulting Islam. No his "apology" was not at all convincing, and may I also accuse him of being a coward for not apologizing himself but instead having to use one of his peons.

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls). Of course, you'll never hear Benny talking honestly about this issue - but just remember that next time this dungbeetle tries to insult our religion.

Assalamu Alaikum, my Brothers and Sisters. I hope this knowledge helps you understand, and guide more misinformed believers to Islam. Peace! =)

 

[Mabsoot]

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he was patient. Look at how the Prophet had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.

 

[Andalusian]

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers.

Assalamo alaikoum

I liked brother your sentence about Satan
there are some verses :
"O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan (Satan); surely he is your open enemy."
Surah N°2 The Cow (al-Baqqara) verse n°168

"Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins you to be niggardly, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing."
Surah N°2 The Cow (al-Baqqara) verse n°268

"Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Shaitan, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°60

"They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°117

"He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive."
Surah N°4 women (an-Nisaa') verse n°120

"And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our communications, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray."
Surah N°7 The Eleveted Places (al-A'rafe) verse n°175

"And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment."
Surah N°14 Abrahame (Ibrahim) verse n°22

"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah N°16 The Bee (Anahele) verse n°63

"And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and follows every rebellious Shaitan;"
Surah N°22 The Pilgrimage (al-Hajj) verse n°3

"So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,"
Surah N°22 The Pilgrimage (al-Hajj) verse n°53

"Certainly he led me astray from the reminder after it had come to me; and the Shaitan fails to aid man."
Surah N°25 The Criterion (al-Furqane) verse n°29

this verse sum up the what you said brother :
"Like the Shaitan when he says to man: Disbelieve, but when he disbelieves, he says: I am surely clear of you; surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds"
Surah N°59 The Banishment (al-Hachere) verse n°16

WaSalam

 

[Andalusian]

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he was patient. Look at how the Prophet had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.

:salam2:

i found this comment in a website but there is no source this is the translation :

"Do you know that more than 500 places in America names of Arab root carry? What there were Amerindianes tribes whose women wore the veil as the sign Islam? And that an Amerindian chief Cherokees has as name Ramadhan Ibn Wati? this is a link about him :
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sequoyah1.htm

and an Algerian, named Salem, son of a royal family from Algeria of the 18th century who were taken as slave by the Spaniards and brought in America and lived among an Amerindian tribe of the state of Virginia before converting to Christianity? etc…
The theory according to which there would have been Moslems in America before the conquistadors is not new. It is already obvious that Christophe Colomb was not the first navigator of the old world having put the feet in America: The history of the Vikings is already known, but less known, of the navigators of the kingdom of Mali, sent by the king abou bakar II, already crossed the Atlantic.
In the same way it is allowed to think, since Christophe Colomb would have used charts (maps) which were established by the Andalucians Moslems (Muslims who lived in Andalucia in Spain today), that they would have preceded him to reach America.
Witnesses of the presence of Moslems, it would seem that the town of Mecca in Indiana would come from the name of Mecca to Arabia. In the same way for Medina in Ohio, Texas… These names of Amerindian origin, and are not instituted by the colonists.!! "

« There are 565 names of places (villages, towns, cities, mountains, lakes, rivers, etc.) in USA (484) and Canada (81) which are derived from Islamic and Arabic roots. These places were originally named by the natives in pre-Columbian period. Some of these names carried holy meanings such as : Mecca (Indiana) - 720 inhabitants, Makkah Indian tribe (Washington), Medina (Idaho) - 2100, Medina (NY) - 8500, Medina and Hazen (North Dakota) - 1100 and 5000, respectively, Medina (Ohio) - 12,000, Medina (Tennessee) - 1100, Medina (Texas) - 26,000, Medina (Ontario) - 3200, Mona (Utah) - 1100, Arva (Ontario) - 700, and many others. A careful study of the names of the native Indian tribes revealed that many names are derived from Arab and Islamic roots and origins, i.e. Anasazi, Apache, Arawak, Arikana, Chavin Cherokee, Cree, Hohokam, Hupa, Hopi, Makkah, Mahigan, Mohawk, Nazca, Zulu, Zuni, etc. »

Again i have to insist that i just found this comment on a website and i translate it and that i am not sure about those sentence and arguments.

See this link (MUSLIMS IN THE AMERICAS BEFORE COLUMBUS)
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html

I think that some studies even why not PhD etc. must be done as brother TheHumbleWun said in his comment :
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22&page=2



I will end with this verse :

"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah N°16 The bee verse n°63

 

[muslim]

WAS ISLAM SPREAD BY THE SWORD?

Question:
How can Islam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?

Answer:

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth (Guidance from almighty ALLAH) , reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.

ALLAH effaceth What He will, and establish (what he will), and with him is the source of ordinance.[Quran 13:39]

1. Islam means peace.
Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).

2. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.
An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?


3. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

4. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.
Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.


5. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

6. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

7. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

8. Indonesia and Malaysia.Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"

9. East Coast of Africa.
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"

10. Thomas Carlyle.
The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."

11. No compulsion in religion.
With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

12. Sword of the Intellect.
It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.
Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

 

[Mrmuslim]

Salaam Alikom

I just want to comment on the incident of pope Benedictus's, Allah swt make things happen for a reason which far beyong our thought... and I am sure there is a good thing will come out of this too, a lot of people in Europe started reading about Islam and some of them accepted islam just becaus what Danish newspaper did, also with incident of 9/11 1000's of people came to Islam, Allah make things happen for a reason. They try to push people a way from Islam and every time they do or say something against Islam it comes back with good results people start learning moure about islam on wide range.

يريدون أن يطفئوا نور الله بأفواههم ويأبى الله إلا أن يتم نوره ولو كره الكافرون) (التوبة: 32). ​

They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse /009.032 .

(هو الذي أرسل رسوله بالهدى ودين الحق ليظهره على الدين كله ولو كره المشركون) (التوبة: 33​

).
He it is Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse. 009.033

also the prophet peace be up on him said
ما رواه مسلم في صحيحه وأبو داود والترمذي وصححه وابن ماجه وأحمد عن ثوبان أن النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- قال: "إن الله زوى لي الأرض - أي جمعها وضمها - فرأيت مشارقها ومغاربها، وإن أمتي سيبلغ ملكها ما زوي لي منها. . . " الحديث (رواه مسلم برقم -2889-، وأبو داود -4252-، والترمذي -2203- وصححه، وابن ماجه -3952-، وأحمد 5/278، 284).

Meaning:
The prophet peace be up on him said { Allah collected the earth for me and I saw the east and west of the earth and my Ummah will reach as much Allah collected from earth for me and I saw) Muslim-2889-, 4252-Abu Daoud-, and Al-Termezi - 2203-and corrected, The son of Magh - 3952-

This my translation I couldnt find the english translation if any onehave the english translations of hadith can you post the link

and also

ما رواه ابن حبان في صحيحه: "ليبلغن هذا الأمر - يعني الإسلام - ما بلغ الليل والنهار، ولا يترك الله بيت مدر ولا وبر إلا أدخله الله هذا الدين، بعز عزيز، أو بذل دليل، عزًا يعز الله به الإسلام، وذلاً يذل الله به الكفر" (ذكره الهيثمي في موارد الظمآن إلى زوائد ابن حبان -1631، 1632​

Translation ( Narrated by Ibn Haban that the prophet peace be up him said
This matter ( meaning Islam) will reach as far the day and night reached, and Allah will not leave a house except he introduced this religion to this house, either by honoring of honorable or by humiliating the humiliater )

This my translation of hadith so if you have it in english please post it

wa salaam alikom

 

[west]

Okay, its really simple. when he was young, this pope had belonged to the Nazi Youth. He also has no sympathy for any other religion beside Christianity. In the last few months he even insulted teh Jews at Auschwitz.

Unfortunately the pope is a religious leader who thinks that he can say what he wants. People must also realise that he does not spek for all Christians.
I was Christian - look what faith I am practising today. The majority of my family are Christian and they are not anti-Islamic. We need to look at this in the context that it is the personal opinion of one man.

See Islamonline.net for more stories and responses to the pope's speech

 

[Robb]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well

 

[Robb]

Oookey.. it seems my posts don't register?

 

[Mabsoot]

Hi Robb, welcome to this site.

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.

Hi, Islamite? sounds like marmite..... First, make sure you know who you are addressing and what it is you are talking about.

Im quite suprised at your first statement...... especially when the US has killed 200,000 people in Iraq.. and has recently supplied weapons to Israel and allowed them to massacre thousands in Lebanon.

People are dying in the Middle East because of US imperialism. Lets not forget the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran, the empowerment, support and supply of chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein (a great friend of Rumsfeld), the support and creation of Alqaeda in Afghanistan (yes, a lot of CIA money went into that!).....

Oh, and there is Israel, a racist apartheid state, which is handed billions of dollars so they can freely use missiles, helicopters, tanks and cluster bombs against some of the most poverty stricken, stateless people in the world.

You are talking to someone who in the past year lived in a Christian/Muslim village in Lebanon. I can show you some photos if you really want of Churches and Mosques near each other.... and Muslims and Christian neighbours chatting about the world cup.....

It was the Crusaders, who sent out by the Pope to kill and plunder ... massacred the Arab Christians and the Muslims. For their brains were soooo up their nether regions, they had no idea that there were Christians living in that region.

Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived side by side in the Middle East for centuries. Evidence is in the history books. ----- Archaeological evidence is in the magnificent and luxurious Jewish quarters which are still visible today in Toledo, Morocco and Iraq. The Churches that were built by Muslims still stand.......

This website is a testimony to Islam and its openess to all of mankind. We have Americans, European, Arab, African, Asian... Muslim and non-Muslim....

No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.

AlQaeda is evil, there is no doubt about that. What they do is wrong and it is not from Islam. They use politics and the theory of "Revenge" to justify their actions........... its the foreign policy that does it..

Suicide bombing and terrorism is not something that Islam sanctions.

Its not my fault that people believe everything they see in the NEWS everything FOXNEWS tell them.

Hizbullah, does suicide bombing. ??Did you know the majority of their suicide bombers were Christian and secular/atheist?? Infact, they even had a Christian female school teacher who decided to be a Suicide bomber. ---- the question needs to be asked why people would do such things..... for them, it was for their nationalism, to expel the invaders......

In Pape's book "Dying to win" he conducted research and found that Hezbolla suicide bombers in the period 1982-1986 were 71% Christian, 21% Communist/Socialist, 8% Islamist (204-07).

So, Extremism and terrorism hasnt anything to do with Islam. It has everything to do with desperation and oppression.

Tony Blair, George Bush.. and the worst puppy Howard go around telling people that the Iraq war has not angered anyone, nor has it created any increase in global terrorism. Totally untrue, as long as they continue to do this:

People will continue going towards extremism..... its as simple as that.

This is not to say that it is justified... no attack against civillians can be justified.... But, it is very simplistic to imagine that Muslims and Islam is evil due to the actions of a very small group of people who are statistically insignificant but whose actions are shown on the media.

Infact, it can also be said that these groups deliberately do these extremist actions simply to get their voice heard and seen on the media..... and to create a reaction such as yours..... The extremists want to create seperation and conflict.

Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

Whats wrong with going down to your local Mosque? You have come to this website, you have contact with Muslims, so how can you even say such a thing?

In that case, wouldnt someone living out in Iraq seeing American soldiers kick doors down and shoot children will think they are the true face of Westerners? (not christians as there are Christians living in Iraq, but, you wouldnt know it because the media dont show it..... some of the oldest churches are in Iraq)

Oh, and we shall not forget Australian history..... and its treatment of aborigines and other immigrants. When was it that forced seperation of families was finally outlawed??? "The Stolen Generation" ? 1969..

 

[Robb]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart

Salaam.

 

[Mrmuslim]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well

Hello and Peace be up on you too Robb, welcom to TTI I hope you will enjoy reading and learning more about Islam,

You taking incidents and linking them to Islam , eventually you have not read or searched what is the True Islam.
you blaming more than 9 billion Muslim for the action of few. No Muslim agreed or will agree with what happened and Most of the Muslim condimed what happened but the MEDIA choose not to show it on so they keep showing the wrong Idea about Islam , and in no way any muslim is responsible for action of others. as you are not responsible of action of others on the streets.

No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha

If that the case lets go back in history and see what chiristian did to Muslim when they went to jeruslem (and you can watch the movie kingdom of heaven to get just very little idea)
what Chirstian did to Muslim in Bosina where more than 80,000 human being before being ( Muslim) been killed in a way non of the Human being would think.
they killed pregnagt women, newly born babies...etc search on google and you will find more, they still finding mass graves for Muslims till today 6 years after the war.

We can not blame Chirsitians in every part of the world for what happened in bosnia, same way you cant blame all the muslims.

at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

No they are not representing Islam in any way, that what the Media want you to believe I would suggest you do some more reading and research on Islam instead just following what the Media says. I would suggest you take a look at the link which has a lot info about True Islam
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12
wa salaam ( Peace)

 

[Andalusian]

After seeing what islamites have done to non-muslims in the middle-east and elsewhere (9/11, anyone?), I'm convinced that islam is indeed a violent religion.
No amount of saying its peaceful is gonna wash when we have videos of suicide bombers talking about killing people in the name of Islam/Allah.
I don't think that, say, christians or buddhists would go on a furious rampage after seeing a couple of caricatures drawn of Jesus or Buddha.
Anyway, at the moment the fundementalists are the true face of islam. They are the only representatives of that religion that are visible.

I know a couple of muslims who are alright people, they're muslims but they're not very religious, and I believe the people browsing these forums are not too evil either.

Hm, I suppose that didn't have much to do the with pope, but oh well

Hello there
I think you got a full answer up but i want to add something, and i will talk with honesty to you.
You talk about "violence" in "Islam" so give for us things as they are don't talk to us about what happen in some areas or what some people do.
Because violence has no land or time.
Try just to take a look on history to learn about nations who used what they call "resistance" to liberate their nations in all part of the world.
Why when someone use "Islam" to fufill his own agenda, do you see with open eyes and do you blame Islam as religion??

Look i will be with you frank,from inside the Quran, because saying anything and stick it to islam it's a shame on every person who lives on earth.

So let us talking about "violence" as you call it, i hope that you will be honest in your understanding!

Allah Says in the Quran :
"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, but do not transgress the limits, surely Allah does not love those who transgress the limits".
Surah The Cow al-Baqqarah N°2verse n°190
You know the more people blame Islam the more muslim and non-muslim learn about Islam and as a consequence the muslims stick to Islam and non-muslim revert because lies against Islam push people to look for information like i do now.

I will help you now and i will give you the explanation for the Aya above:
Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed.'' `

(...those who fight you) applies only to fighting the enemies who are engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the Ayah means, `Fight those who fight you',

So everyone will defend his family etc. from ennemies even cats or birds do the same things!!! so open your eyes and don't make advertising for the empty message of "love"!!

You have to remember, above all fighting was between personvperson without tanks or missiles...


You know the question is not what happen and to defend or to blame Islam etc. This is the question : because violence which happen in other places, people and media don't care much about it or talk about it, they talk only when someone use "Islam" on his own live!
Things are lights clears : Mankind and Man look for lies so as not to believe in a Creator, they want to live in their own live in their fiction freedom as they imagine it!

About this Allah says :
"We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious."
Surah the cave (Al-kahf) N°18 verse n°54

Unfortunately everyone thinks that he does well in this life, but Allah says this :
"By Allah, most certainly We sent (apostles) to nations before you, but the Shaitan (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment."
Surah The Bee (An-Nahl) N°16 verse n°63

This is the teaching of Islam and the Quran :
"For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land."
Surah The Food al-Maidah n°5 verse n°32


So don't try to isolate and stick to one word like "slay" or isolate one verse alone as some people who think there are clever and start to learn arabic so as to tell to muslims we master arabic then we understand what the Quran said and we are able to understand that Islam teach "violence". Those people try to explain word by word and to say what they want but they don't care of the message of Islam.
Islam is an honest religion and way of life and no one word were deleted or erased or changed from the Quran. I think only this fact it's a message for people and should think about it. But i know that not all people will open their heart!! This is what God and his messeger Peace be upon him teach us :

"And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"
Surah Yunus N°10 verse n°99

"And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ."
Surah Hud N°11 verse n°118

So tell me there is more than this freedom which Islam teach us!!!

But let us again see what the Quran says :
"If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds"

an advise for you don't be lost inside those silly arguements against Islam or some dates in history about fighting or what happen today. But try to open your heart and your mind!
"But when the deafening cry comes, The day on which a man shall fly from his brother, And his mother and his father, And his spouse and his son, Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him."
Surah He frowed (Abasa) N°80 verses n°33-37


You brag watching video on ogrish!!!
I will give you only ONE simple example : if we filmed what colonialism did in some areas : they threw people alive in desert from planes which were flying.


Open your mind, open your heart...

 

[Mabsoot]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart

Salaam.

Hi, Robb

There is always another side to somethings. It is true that terrorism and killing of civillians is wrong, as we have pointed out before it is a sin.

At same time, you must realise the anger and frustration people feel. You state that many troops have died in Iraq trying to keep the peace. . .

But, is that why they were sent there? And is that what Iraqis think of the troops?? 200,000 have died..... many more died whilst the same Western Leaders supported Saddam Hussein. The US urged Iraqis to overthrow Saddam, and they did that in 1991. 2/3s of the provinces were free from Saddam's control..... however, US help never arrived, they lied.. Their spy drones were seen overhead when Saddam's men shot and massacred protestors and revolters........ The history goes waaaaaay back, in the 1920s British empire had been responsible for the killing of 1000s of Kurds, infact they used Chemical weapons against them.

So what about all this??? How can you stick to your point of view when all these things and much more have happened to the innocent people in Iraq?

Iraq today has more killings, more torture than it EVER had under Saddam Hussein.

Now, i do not want to go into politics, but there is a political and historical dimension to these issues....

What we as Muslims want, is peace. To not have any foreign involvement in our affairs..... However, this is difficult as USUK coalition want the oil.

This war was about oil, gas, strategic control and aiding Israel. Our governments could not give a damn about the people living in Iraq.

They dont care about the poor. Those calling the shots have 1,000,000s at stake, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Rice all of these war hawks have stakes in reconstruction companies, oil&gas companies, weapons and armaments manufacturers.......

They sit back waiting to get the US, UK, Australian, tax payers to pay for the war...... whilst preparing to loot the natural resources of the Iraqi people.

As for the people who target the coalition, what do you expect when a sovereign country is bombed in "shock and awe" fashion and an unpopular foreign invasion occurs?

People are dragged off the streets by the invading army, there is a shoot first ask questions later policy. - so they have not won the hearts and minds of anyone, except the lackeys they pay to be in power.

Suicide bombing shouldnt be happening, the Iraqis shouldnt be wasting their lives trying to get rid of these invaders. Their lives are far too precious.

 

[mr. ok]

Rob



:salam2: my dear brothers and sisters (Muslims & non-Muslims)

AlQaeda is evil, there is no doubt about that. What they do is wrong and it is not from Islam. They use politics and the theory of "Revenge" to justify their actions........... its the foreign policy that does it..

How would he know as he lacks the teachings of Islam. He's just being a naive person who lets the Media influence (effect) his judgment. He doesnt care for the truth (it shows after what he said but i believe people can change). If he did he would pick up the Quran and actually read it. In Robs case, you cant make a horse play the piano.

Rob, please for give me if i misunderstood you or said anything unsounded, offensive, or wrong about you.

barakAllah fik

 

[mr. ok]

Dear Rob



:salam2: my dear brothers and sisters (Muslims & non-Muslims).

Posted by Rob: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

Look you got to understand one thing. The people whom you speak of may appear Muslims to you but always remember that Islam does not support terrorism!

Written by Mabsoot: "At same time, you must realise the anger and frustration people feel"

Rob, people kill each other all the time but dont judge Islam by there actions or any religion for that matter. But study the religion and then judge them according to there religion.

When love ones die people revolt (in war). I think its unwise of those people who think they have the right to kill anyone (unfortunately, often innocents have to pay the price) just because their loved ones were killed. There is no justice in this. Verily, this is not of Islam.

Please forgive me if i said anything offensive, wrong, or unsounded.

Best Regards,

Mr. Ok

 

[dna1987]

Suicide bombing shouldnt be happening, the Iraqis shouldnt be wasting their lives trying to get rid of these invaders. Their lives are far too precious.

About this little bit in your post, an Iraqi friend and classmate of mine, told me in that a car garage was shut down in his uncle's village in Iraq for planting bombs under cars while fixing other things (eg. like replacing a flat tyre, etc). Makes you think..hmmm..

And think about this ... ONE muslim could be travelling in a bus with 40 other people; if somebody blows the bus up externally, or if if anybody blows the bus up, the muslim will be labelled a "terrorist suicide bomber". How is anyone going to argue with that? How is anyone going to find the time to investigate an attack like that, if there are dozens of attacks everyday. It's a lot simpler to say "well somebody blew it up; it must have been a suicide bomber".

To Robb, there is more than sufficient evidence that suggests Muslims were not behind 9/11. For you to use that as an example of "Islamic terrorism" is not right. We could make an entire thread about that, just discussing it. There is already another thread about 9/11 in the "Current Affairs" that you might find interesting.


And if you want to know a long list of false flag operations commited to create disruptions between the Muslims and say .. Jews, you should read this article by an Iraqi Jew, who moved to Israel in the 1940s.
The Jews of Iraq

 

[Mabsoot]

Assalamu alaykum,

^^^^ with regards to suicide bombing anyone targetting civillians is a criminal act, same as Murder ^^^^^

About this little bit in your post, an Iraqi friend and classmate of mine, told me in that a car garage was shut down in his uncle's village in Iraq for planting bombs under cars while fixing other things (eg. like replacing a flat tyre, etc). Makes you think..hmmm..

Well there is an Iraqi sister on this forum who told me how people in Baghdad found American Soldiers with bomb making equipment.... They were planting car bombs.

Last year soldiers were found wearing Arab clothings and with bomb making equipment.

Also, the Soldiers were seen looting buildings in early days of the war. Specifically they were looting the museums AND they were seen burning Iraqi Government offices. Both the latter cases have been documented by the famous English journalist Robert Fisk in the Independent Newspaper.

Whats unfortunate is people either Dont know whats happening in Iraq and the Muslim world, i.e. they do not know the extent of the oppression and torture of Muslims in places in Chechnya, Palestine, Darfur etc.

Or they do know about it and get too emotionally attached to the issues and do not think properly with regards to it. <- this is case with some Muslims who are ignorant to what Islam says regarding these issues.

 

[Robb]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.