FreedomFighter
Junior Member
its ok people 
atheist looking to have answers about islam
- Thread starter db92509
- Start date
Lookingforlight
Slave of Allah
A lot of prayers are answered by Allah.
Ibrahim (as) prayed that there be more prophets in his linegae- Allah answered it.
Musa (as) prayed that his people be saved- Allah answered it.
Mohammed (sas) prayed that Makkah be made the sanctuary of Islam- Allah answered it.
Ibrahim (as) prayed that there be more prophets in his linegae- Allah answered it.
Musa (as) prayed that his people be saved- Allah answered it.
Mohammed (sas) prayed that Makkah be made the sanctuary of Islam- Allah answered it.
a_stranger
Junior Member
Lookingforlight
Slave of Allah
The most absurd question aitheists ask is "who created God?"
It is Allah who created everything, time included, so technically there is nothing before time and and to us "in the beginning" means since time was created- time is the cage of mankind but an All Powerful Being like Allah would be out of that cage.
It is Allah who created everything, time included, so technically there is nothing before time and and to us "in the beginning" means since time was created- time is the cage of mankind but an All Powerful Being like Allah would be out of that cage.
I have at no point asked you to follow me.
Regardless of that, the burden of proof is always on the person making a particular claim. my 'belief' is in fact a lack of a belief in god.
As you are making the assertion of the existence of a god the burden of proof lies with you.
on a seperate point do you mind me asking which country you reside in?
Why, what proof's do you need. Do you actually want to see God?, That would remove the purpose of our religion and him wanting you to come to him but he has given signs...
And from personal experience no doubt in my mind that there is a God, not because people tell me, because of our religion's Wisdom. In my mind through our rules and responsibilities our religion is very wise indeed i can explain it to you if you want...
Edit: I mean, Just look at pork-
www.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070129035438AAy8Uic
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0MALRkzDJc
i am greatful for your replies and i look forward to having further in depth discussions with you. i think it would however be useful to stick to a particular topic and move on to other topics at a mutually satisfactory point. i find otherwise discussions tend to drift. As you will have noticed here.
I will gladly come back to the issue of food rituals if you like at a later point. is that ok with you?
Hard Rock Moslem
I'm your brother
Firstly, welcome. I hope you will ask question in professional manner otherwise someone will ban you from here.
The Ka'abah is not built by pagan, but by Prophet Ibrahim and his son Prophet Ismael (peace be upon them both). The Arabs at that time can be divided mainly into two major beliefs, 1) paganism and the other the follower of Ibrahim and Ismael (peace be upon them) teachings which being called as "Hanif Islam" religion (not sure whether there was any atheist). Yes, the pagan did prayed in front of Kaabah but to their 300 over respective idols hanging on Kaabah. But the follower of "Islam Hanif" ppl, e.g. the Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) did not worshipped this idol, needless to say worshipping the Kaabah.
You are judging from one side of the story, an atheist are suppose to be brilliant ppl, hope you will also do research on the other side of the story which is about the "Hanif Islam" (http://www.hanif-islam.com/home.html).
The Ka'abah is not built by pagan, but by Prophet Ibrahim and his son Prophet Ismael (peace be upon them both). The Arabs at that time can be divided mainly into two major beliefs, 1) paganism and the other the follower of Ibrahim and Ismael (peace be upon them) teachings which being called as "Hanif Islam" religion (not sure whether there was any atheist). Yes, the pagan did prayed in front of Kaabah but to their 300 over respective idols hanging on Kaabah. But the follower of "Islam Hanif" ppl, e.g. the Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) did not worshipped this idol, needless to say worshipping the Kaabah.
You are judging from one side of the story, an atheist are suppose to be brilliant ppl, hope you will also do research on the other side of the story which is about the "Hanif Islam" (http://www.hanif-islam.com/home.html).
Hard Rock Moslem
I'm your brother
It is not a threat my friend but a reminder and advise. My experience here many ppl like you came and started to use offensive language. When the moderator is around he/she will immediately ban this person. I've personally requested few to be banned the moment they insult our Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). So you know where to draw the line. I'm sorry if anyone did offended you, but let me assure we will continue engage with healthy dialogue so long you follow the rules (http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4). Ask anything will benefit you and us.
Fatima S.Ar
Happiness = Islam
Don't worry
Feel free to ask
I wanna share this discussion but I can't bcz I've exams
I passed to say : Welcome here among us , consider urself one of our family
May Allah guide you to the right path
Fatima
Feel free to ask
I wanna share this discussion but I can't bcz I've exams
I passed to say : Welcome here among us , consider urself one of our family
May Allah guide you to the right path
Fatima
Seeking Allah's Mercy
Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
firstly,
now to ur questoin:
what i understand with a new holy book, a new prophet,in a new line of
ppl,a new kiblaa is nothing to b confused about.
i'm not saying that Allah wanted to have his faith in a new look.just meaning
to help u understand changing the directon of ur prayers by Allah's wishes
again has nothing mind boggling about it.
it has been done b4.and so it did again.
now to ur questoin:
what i understand with a new holy book, a new prophet,in a new line of
ppl,a new kiblaa is nothing to b confused about.
i'm not saying that Allah wanted to have his faith in a new look.just meaning
to help u understand changing the directon of ur prayers by Allah's wishes
again has nothing mind boggling about it.
it has been done b4.and so it did again.
Hello and welcome to the forum,
As I understand it the kaaba is a pre-islamic monument utilised by pagans.
The key point that has been missed by the brothers and sisters here is that Kabbah is not a Pre-Islamic monument. It is a misconception that people have that Islam started 14 centuries back. Islam has been around since the time of Adam [peace be upon him] [Infact before than that].
And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. (Quran 16:36)
So to begin with Islam predates the construction of the Kabah.
Why do muslims revere it it considering its roots. The defacto answer i have previously had is that abraham built it as a muslim building but that doesnt hold much credence with me.
The first House established for humanity was that at Bakka*, a place of blessing and a guidance for all beings. In it are Clear Signs-the place where Abraham stood [to pray]. All who enter it are safe. Pilgrimage to the House is a duty owed to God by all humanity-those who can find a way to do it. But if anyone does not believe, God is Rich Beyond Need of any being. (Qur'an, 3:96-97)
The fact is that Kabah was built by Prophet Abraham [pbuh] for the worship of Allah swt. If the pagan Arabs placed idols in it that does not negate the purpose for which it was built i.e. for the worship of Allah swt.
The fact that Kabah was built for the worship of Allah swt can be found in other scriptures as well; In the Persian scriptures, which have been around for thousands of years, we read:
"When the Persians should sink so low in mortality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones will be overpowered. The house which was built and in which many idols have been placed will purged of idols and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of the Farsi, Entaus and Balkh, and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers." (Desature no.14)
The Muslims recognize this very quickly because the Kabah, was at one time filled with idols and it was part of the mission of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to purge the house of idols. It was in the next generation, after the time of the Prophet [pbuh] that the wise men of Persia and others did join his followers.
Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. {Bible book of Psalms 84:5-7}
Is it not more realistic that it was a political move to unite the tribes of the time
Remember you said this, as I’ll quote this back to you [once you ask another question].
Changing of direction:
A section of the People of the Book say: "believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back; (Quran 3:72)
"And thus we have made you a middle-of-the-way community that you will be witnesses over people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qibla (direction of prayer) which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom God has guided. And never would God have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed God is, to the people, Kind and Merciful." (2:143)
As I understand it the kaaba is a pre-islamic monument utilised by pagans.
The key point that has been missed by the brothers and sisters here is that Kabbah is not a Pre-Islamic monument. It is a misconception that people have that Islam started 14 centuries back. Islam has been around since the time of Adam [peace be upon him] [Infact before than that].
And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. (Quran 16:36)
So to begin with Islam predates the construction of the Kabah.
Why do muslims revere it it considering its roots. The defacto answer i have previously had is that abraham built it as a muslim building but that doesnt hold much credence with me.
The first House established for humanity was that at Bakka*, a place of blessing and a guidance for all beings. In it are Clear Signs-the place where Abraham stood [to pray]. All who enter it are safe. Pilgrimage to the House is a duty owed to God by all humanity-those who can find a way to do it. But if anyone does not believe, God is Rich Beyond Need of any being. (Qur'an, 3:96-97)
The fact is that Kabah was built by Prophet Abraham [pbuh] for the worship of Allah swt. If the pagan Arabs placed idols in it that does not negate the purpose for which it was built i.e. for the worship of Allah swt.
The fact that Kabah was built for the worship of Allah swt can be found in other scriptures as well; In the Persian scriptures, which have been around for thousands of years, we read:
"When the Persians should sink so low in mortality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones will be overpowered. The house which was built and in which many idols have been placed will purged of idols and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of the Farsi, Entaus and Balkh, and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers." (Desature no.14)
The Muslims recognize this very quickly because the Kabah, was at one time filled with idols and it was part of the mission of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to purge the house of idols. It was in the next generation, after the time of the Prophet [pbuh] that the wise men of Persia and others did join his followers.
Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. {Bible book of Psalms 84:5-7}
Is it not more realistic that it was a political move to unite the tribes of the time
Remember you said this, as I’ll quote this back to you [once you ask another question].
Changing of direction:
A section of the People of the Book say: "believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back; (Quran 3:72)
"And thus we have made you a middle-of-the-way community that you will be witnesses over people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qibla (direction of prayer) which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom God has guided. And never would God have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed God is, to the people, Kind and Merciful." (2:143)
I don't get this part. How so?
Anyways, I agree with this analysis:
jerusalemites.org/jerusalem/islam/30.htm[/rl] lol, it wouldn't let me post the full url
The same article gives some more examples of this type of behavior. Something that was once banned because of association was made legal once the Muslims had their own identity. Another example that's not cited in the article is about the beard. Muslims were not allowed to grow long, dangly beards because that's what the Jews did, so the beard law's purpose was to seperate themselves from others and form their own identity and mindset. After a firm Muslim identity was established, it didn't matter what kind of beard anybody would grow because now it would not be associated as "being a Jewish thing". Same logic applies to the Kaba.
It was only after it was firmly entrenched in the Muslim mindset that the Kaba was not seen as a "pagan thing", that it was changed from Jerusalem.
Also, the fact that the Jews of Medina had rejected the Prophet opened up the opportunity for the change, instead of randomly changing direction when the relationship with the Jewish tribes were still good. The Kaba was meant to be the direction of prayer for Muslims in the first place and the rejection of the Prophet by the Jews left the door wide open to do just that.
Bawar
Struggling2Surrender
Hello and welcome db92509.
I would try to answer your question in several portions:
Firslty, it is the command of God (Allah) that is of the essence and not so much the direction. So, whichever direction HE commands to pray to, THAT is holy for us.
"To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing." Quran 2:115
Secondly, even if we assume that your hypothesis that the change of direction (Qibla) was a "political movement", there is nothing wrong with that for us muslims, as politics and spirituality are not two separate entities in islam. They are both for a muslim. A muslim is expected to live his daily life (political, financial, social, spiritual) according to the will of God and that is exactly what Islam (submission) is.
Thirdly, at the early days of the prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him, all muslims considered Masjid-ul-Haram as the house of God and a muslim holy place. It did not gain that status after muslims were ordered to pray in that direction. Infact, it was the wish of muslims to pray in it, but as they were few in number and faced persecution by the idolators of Mecca, they could not pray there.
Lastly, it was always the wish of muslims to pray in the directoin of original Qibla as you can see it from the following Quranic verse:
"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do." Quran, 2:44
peace
I would try to answer your question in several portions:
Firslty, it is the command of God (Allah) that is of the essence and not so much the direction. So, whichever direction HE commands to pray to, THAT is holy for us.
"To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing." Quran 2:115
Secondly, even if we assume that your hypothesis that the change of direction (Qibla) was a "political movement", there is nothing wrong with that for us muslims, as politics and spirituality are not two separate entities in islam. They are both for a muslim. A muslim is expected to live his daily life (political, financial, social, spiritual) according to the will of God and that is exactly what Islam (submission) is.
Thirdly, at the early days of the prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him, all muslims considered Masjid-ul-Haram as the house of God and a muslim holy place. It did not gain that status after muslims were ordered to pray in that direction. Infact, it was the wish of muslims to pray in it, but as they were few in number and faced persecution by the idolators of Mecca, they could not pray there.
Lastly, it was always the wish of muslims to pray in the directoin of original Qibla as you can see it from the following Quranic verse:
"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do." Quran, 2:44
peace
arzafar
Junior Member
you are an athiest right?
religion doesnt make sense to you right?
then how can you ask questions about religious matters?
no matter what answer we give to you, it will never make sense to you because you dont believe in god. belief in one god is the foundation of Islam.
Isn't it ironic that by asking these questions you're trying to make sense out of something that you believe is illogical?
maybe you should start by asking about the fundamental question "who/what is god?" before asking anything else.
Munawar
Striving for Paradise
Well... sister you do ask a lot of questions... Don't you?
But we welcome your questions, and will try to answer them.
As far as Kaaba being built by Abraham (PBUH) is concerned this is a historical fact. You guys killed millions of Palestinians and created Israel saying that God promised it to the forefathers of Jews, and you don't know that Abraham and Ismael togather built Kaaba in Makkah? That is funny.
This is a fact, I don't know how else I can convey it to you. And as far as why changed the "Qibla" i.e. the direction of worship from Jerusalam to Kabbah is because the Prophet was ordered by Allah.
Allah is is God Almighty and he wanted to test the Muslims how quickly they folllow the orders and they did follow it instantly. If we were ordered to pray facing towards London then we Muslims would have that too.
I don't think you can grasp the concept of total obediance of God's orders. So it will sound strange to you.
See you around.
arzafar
Junior Member
ignorance breeds arrogance! We should try to understand things from their perspective.
CAUTION: We must never be self righteous!
shichemlydia
Junior Member
salam
salam alikoum friend,
as to begin you are welcomed to our forum and hope you have a nice time with us,
yes the kaaba was built by ibraham and ibraham is a muslim read this in the quran.
the direction of the prayer was changed by allah swt read this also in the quran, and the muslims had to change since it came from allah swt.
hope this make you confortable.
wa salam alikoum
salam alikoum friend,
as to begin you are welcomed to our forum and hope you have a nice time with us,
yes the kaaba was built by ibraham and ibraham is a muslim read this in the quran.
the direction of the prayer was changed by allah swt read this also in the quran, and the muslims had to change since it came from allah swt.
hope this make you confortable.
wa salam alikoum