Communicating with kaffir family

[mohsofi_abdullah]

salam brothers

I think I was trying to make a point that, calling them kuffars just for the sake of argument, in a display of fanatical values, witnessed by so many muslimin and muslimat, who, by the way, have relatives who are kafir... indeed, would impose on many... A fanatical value, is not derived from the Al Quran, whatsoever...

I comes from the way we create the tone of our argument...
We set the tone, we use them intelligently, and we do not have to stress it beyond its use...

This is not the forum for its use, I guess...
Muslims know that non believers are kafirs...
But I do think that calling Bush Regime and the Zionnists khuffars is rignt on the money...

Extreme measures must be taken against extreme khuffars
Mild approach must be taken for the borderline kafirs...
I understand the ayat you presented, but the use was meant for khuffars like the Quraisy people who attempted to kill our beloved prophet Muhammad S.A.W, but there were non believers that he loved so much, who are not enemies...

We could translate this all we want, but remember, the real khuffars are not on this messageboard. These people are the enquiring minds who need guidance, who did not come here to listen to our ultimatum on what to call certain people, or how to address types of people...'

Hopefully, I understood you well, and vice versa...

Salam

 

[farhopes]

Assalamo alikom

Though I'm not good at debating, I have a humble experience about that issue.
Once I had a discussion with one of my Christian colleagues at work. She said she loved me as if Iwas her daughter, she was at the age of my mom. That encouraged me to talk to her about Islam though that's not easy here in Egypt as Egyptian Christians are always enjoined by the church not to talk about religious matters with Muslims.

While talking to her I was very careful not to hurt her feelings and I tried to clarify the differences between us very calmly and I recited to her some verses that indicate the high status of prophet Jesus and his mother in Qur'an. She was greatly touched by that.


She liked talking to me and I could feel that she is convinced in her heart.
She told me that she liked talking to me because I was talking to her very kindly and respectfully and I didn't call her infidel like many others she talked to them before.

She said that she feels very offended when she is accused by disbelieving in Allah.
Allah enjoined us to call for His way by wisdom and good preaching.
Is it from wisdom and good preaching to accuse people of infidelity instead of attracting them to Islam.

I always ask myself; what if I was born as Christian like many others in Egypt, how would I have liked to be addresed or called to Islam??
All praise be to Allah that we were born as Muslims, that's the greatest grace we are granted without any effort of our own. That's why we should be thankful and grateful to Allah by conveying His message in the way He pleases; the wisdom and the good preaching.

 

[MUHAMMAD_SHAIKH]

communication with kaffir family

assalam alaikum
well, to convince your family you have to tell your family that the religion of Islam is for every one.You have to give the evidences of the arrival of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) by quoting bible verses where it is mentioned about Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him).Tell them that Bibile and other holy scriptures have mentioend about Allah (SWT) and Muhammad ( peace be upon him)....

If you like I can provide you the address where you can find the evidences of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) in Bible and other holy scritures.

 

[noorunnisa24434]

Salaam,

When your sister is praying for muslims you can talk to her first about yourself

Allah hafiz

 

[saba urooj]

:salam2: dear hannah, as u hd mentioned tat ur sis is cmg 2 india, being an indian muslim i cud easily make out the under current of her sudden arrival 2 india, as v all knows how finantially strong these christian missionarries are they come 2 india n convert many poor illeterate ppl into there faith. it is said tat the time n money they spend 2 convert 1 ppl into chirstianityoutside india, with same time n money they convert 10 ppl here in india.:shymuslima1: i hope u gettng my point . may allah show ur family the rt path.:tti_sister:

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother ayman1,



I have divided my response to two parts and a conclusion:

Part 1​

You wrote the following:

It is of no importance what we think is insulting or not insulting. What's important is what they think is insulting! When Muslims call the Christians and Jews Kuffaar instead of the name God called them, People of the Book, they respond by asking the simple question "What does Kuffaar mean?" If they don't get an informed answer, they will research it and end up thinking like they do now that it means infidels!

What's important is the end result. They think we think of them as infidels. That's the reality. We can argue till we're blue in the face and it won't change this current result. Wouldn't it have been better if we were in the habit of calling them people of the book? Don't you think that would have created much better vibes in them about us?

There are many issues worth mentioning here:


The first issue:

When you said, "When Muslims call the Christians and Jews Kuffaar instead of the name God called them, People of the Book..." [I coloured the word instead in red], it sounds like you believe that Jews and Christians are not Kuffaar. It sounds like you believe that the terms "Kuffaar" and "People of the Book" are mutually exclusive [i.e., that one cannot be from among the People of the Book AND a Kaafir at the same time].


Now, I realise that's not what you mean, because you also said the following in post #22 on this thread:

You made the right conclusion when you said that the difference between us is that I do not want to call non-Muslims kuffaar. This is NOT the same as denying that they are! We know from the Quran and the Hadith that Islam is the only religion accepted by God and that anyone who seeks another religion it will not be accepted from them and they will be among the losers in the hereafter. There is no debate here! The argument is about what we call them.

However, if one were to read your last post [#25] without reading your post #22, then a conclusion will be reached that you mean that Jews and Christians cannot be called People of the Book and Kuffaar at the same time.


And here, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that Jews and Christians can be called Kuffaar AND People of the Book [or People of the Scripture]:


That can be shown by verses of the Qur'an where Allah the Almighty called them using both terms even in the same verse:

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لِمَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَأَنتُمْ تَشْهَدُونَ​

O People of the Scripture, why do you disbelieve in the verses of Allah while you witness [to their truth]?

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 3:70]

قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لِمَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ شَهِيدٌ عَلَى مَا تَعْمَلُونَ​

Say, "O People of the Scripture, why do you disbelieve in the verses of Allah while Allah is Witness over what you do?"

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 3:98]

لَمْ يَكُنِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ​

Those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists........

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 98:1]


All of the above are from the translation edited by Saheeh International.


The translation below was published by the King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ​

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur’ân and Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikûn will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures. [4]
---------------------------------------------------------
[4] (V.98:6) It is obligatory to have Belief in the Messengership of the Prophet (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم). Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه: Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "By Him (Allâh) in Whose Hand Muhammad’s soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and Christians (of these present nations) who hears about me and then dies without believing in the Message with which I have been sent (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) but he will be from the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire." (Sahih Muslim, the Book of Faith, Vol.1, Chapter No.240). See also (V.3:85) and (V.3:116).

Source: http://www.qurancomplex.org/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?nSora=98&l=eng&nAya=1#98_6


So, brother ayman1, I believe you were wrong to use the phrase "When Muslims call the Christians and Jews Kuffaar instead of the name God called them, People of the Book,.........." [I emphasized the word "instead"] since it gives the reader the impression that you believe that God Almighty only called Jews and Christians as "People of the Book/Scripture" and did not call them Kuffaar [disbelievers], and we have seen that this is a wrong understanding by quoting verses of the Qur'an where God Almighty -in the same verse- calls Jews and Christians "People of the Scripture" AND and that they are "disbelieving" [pronounced in Arabic as Takfuruna تَكْفُرُونَ] and have "disbelieved" [pronounced in Arabic as Kafaroo كَفَرُوا]


And so, we Muslims have the right to call Jews and Christians using any one of the two terms; either "People of the Book/Scripture" or "Kuffaar" [disbelievers].

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The second issue:


You said that:

"It is of no importance what we think is insulting or not insulting. What's important is what they think is insulting!"


And

"When Muslims call the Christians and Jews Kuffaar instead of the name God called them, People of the Book, they respond by asking the simple question "What does Kuffaar mean?" If they don't get an informed answer, they will research it and end up thinking like they do now that it means infidels!"


And

"What's important is the end result. They think we think of them as infidels. That's the reality. We can argue till we're blue in the face and it won't change this current result. Wouldn't it have been better if we were in the habit of calling them people of the book? Don't you think that would have created much better vibes in them about us?"


My response is as follows:

1- We Muslims should not compromise our religion to please the Kuffaar [disbelievers] or so that they won't get insulted. We should put the pleasure of Allah above the pleasure of His creation.


Let me give you an example, from your own words, of a phrase that will get Jews, Christians and all other Kuffaar [disbelievers] insulted. In post #22, you wrote the following:

We know from the Quran and the Hadith that Islam is the only religion accepted by God and that anyone who seeks another religion it will not be accepted from them and they will be among the losers in the hereafter. There is no debate here!

What do you think Jews, Christians and other non Muslims would feel like when they know that we believe that all non Muslims who died as non Muslims will enter Hell forever if the message of Islam has reached them in a clear and undistorted way?


I'm quite sure that they'll be very insulted.


Do you propose that we change our belief -which is based on God Almighty's words and the words of His Messenger [peace be upon him] as understood by the Companions of the Prophet [peace be upon him]- in order to please non Muslims so that they won't be insulted?


2- You wrote that "If they don't get an informed answer, they will research it and end up thinking like they do now that it means infidels!"


Where would they get an uninformed answer?


If they read any one of the most widespread English translations of the meanings of the Qur'an [the Yusuf Ali translation, The King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an translation and the Saheeh International translation] they'll always find "Kuffaar" translated as "disbelievers" or "unbelievers". And as I mentioned in my other posts, there's nothing insulting about the term "disbeliever" or "unbeliever".


If they go to anti-Muslim sources and/or some Muslims who are not careful to translate Kuffaar as "disbelievers" instead of "infidels", then it's only natural that they get the definition of "Kuffaar" as "infidels".


I think it's appropriate to re-post what I have already wrote in post #23:

In the end, brother ayman1, I have no problem whatsoever if I refrain from using the term Kaafir when calling non Muslims to Islam or even when interacting with them. In fact, I usually use the term "non Muslim".


However, if a non Muslim comes to me and asks me whether Muslims call non Muslims Kuffaar, then I will not lie and say that we don't. I'll tell him that we do call non Muslims Kuffaar, that Kuffaar just means "disbelievers" or "unbelievers", and that Roman Catholics have called all non Christians [at least up to 1967] "infidels". And even if -for arguments sake- we suppose that the Roman Catholics have never termed us Muslims as "infidels", then I'll still say there's nothing wrong with calling non Muslims Kuffaar, because that is what Allah the Almighty has called them, and this was applied by Muslims scholars.


I'll mention to him that Muslims make a difference in how they treat the Kuffaar based on whether a particular Kaafir is hostile to Islam and hurts Muslims.


I'll also mention that the Kuffaar who will abide in Hell eternally are the ones who received the message of Islam in a clear and undistorted way and died without entering Islam, and that the Kuffaar who died without receiving the message of Islam in a clear and undistorted way will be tested on the Day of Judgement and according to the result of that test they will either enter Heaven or Hell.

The above explanation will -God willing- remove any feelings of insult that the Kuffaar [disbelievers] might have when they know that Muslims refer to them as Kuffaar.


3- You wrote that "Wouldn't it have been better if we were in the habit of calling them people of the book?"


And I say that I have no problem whatsoever in calling Jews and Christians as People of the Book/Scripture when calling them to Islam and when interacting with them.


What I do have a problem with is when another Muslim brother comes up to me or any other Muslim and says that it's wrong to call Jews and Christians "Kuffaar" [disbelievers].


And that last scenario is is what you, brother ayman1, have done.


In post #1 on this thread, sister Hannah123 wrote the following about her Christian family:

My family are kaffirs and i find it very hard to communicate with them.

And in post #7 you addressed sister Hannah123 and told her the following about the phrase "My family are kaffirs":

How do you know that? Only God knows that for certain.

Are you telling me that sister Hannah123 was wrong to call her Christian family as Kuffaar [disbelievers]?


If you would have said something like "use the term People of the Book when addressing your family, since God Almighty has called Jews and Christians as People of the Book in addition to Kuffaar. In that way, they'll be more willing to listen to you", then I would have no problem with that statement.


But to deny that Christians are Kuffaar or to deny that a Muslim has the right to call them Kuffaar is just totally wrong.

*********************************************

The third issue:

To give you even more evidence that the term Kaafir just means "disbeliever" or "unbeliever" [and as such is not an insulting "put-down name"], please read the following verses of the Qur'an:

أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَبَأُ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَعَادٍ وَثَمُودَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن بَعْدِهِمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلاَّ اللّهُ جَاءتْهُمْ رُسُلُهُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَرَدُّواْ أَيْدِيَهُمْ فِي أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَقَالُواْ إِنَّا كَفَرْنَا بِمَا أُرْسِلْتُم بِهِ وَإِنَّا لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا تَدْعُونَنَا إِلَيْهِ مُرِيبٍ​

Has there not reached you the news of those before you - the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud and those after them? No one knows them but Allah . Their messengers brought them clear proofs, but they returned their hands to their mouths and said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and indeed we are, about that to which you invite us, in disquieting doubt."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 14:9]


Notice that the Arabic is pronounced as Innaa Kafarnaa which means "we disbelieve". It carries no insulting meaning or "put-down name". And it's not logical to believe that all those people who went against the Messengers [peace be upon him] would use "put-down names" and insulting language against themselves.


This could also be found in other verses of the Qur'an:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِي قَرْيَةٍ مِّن نَّذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَا إِنَّا بِمَا أُرْسِلْتُم بِهِ كَافِرُونَ​

And We did not send into a city any warner except that its affluent said, "Indeed we, in that with which you were sent, are disbelievers."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 34:34]

فَإِنْ أَعْرَضُوا فَقُلْ أَنذَرْتُكُمْ صَاعِقَةً مِّثْلَ صَاعِقَةِ عَادٍ وَثَمُودَ إِذْ جَاءتْهُمُ الرُّسُلُ مِن بَيْنِ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلَّا تَعْبُدُوا إِلَّا اللَّهَ قَالُوا لَوْ شَاء رَبُّنَا لَأَنزَلَ مَلَائِكَةً فَإِنَّا بِمَا أُرْسِلْتُمْ بِهِ كَافِرُونَ​

But if they turn away, then say, "I have warned you of a thunderbolt like the thunderbolt [that struck] 'Aad and Thamud. [That occurred] when the messengers had come to them before them and after them, [saying], "Worship not except Allah ." They said, "If our Lord had willed, He would have sent down the angels, so indeed we, in that with which you have been sent, are disbelievers."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 41:13-14]

وَكَذَلِكَ مَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ فِي قَرْيَةٍ مِّن نَّذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَا إِنَّا وَجَدْنَا آبَاءنَا عَلَى أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَى آثَارِهِم مُّقْتَدُونَ
قَالَ أَوَلَوْ جِئْتُكُم بِأَهْدَى مِمَّا وَجَدتُّمْ عَلَيْهِ آبَاءكُمْ قَالُوا إِنَّا بِمَا أُرْسِلْتُم بِهِ كَافِرُونَ​

And similarly, We did not send before you any warner into a city except that its affluent said, "Indeed, we found our fathers upon a religion, and we are, in their footsteps, following." [Each warner] said, "Even if I brought you better guidance than that [religion] upon which you found your fathers?" They said, "Indeed we, in that with which you were sent, are disbelievers."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 43:23-24]


*********************************************
*********************************************

Part 2​

You wrote the following:

Which of the following two scenarios do you think represents Islam more closely?
1. Christians and Jews know we consider them people of the book, that they have a special status in Islam, that they were always protected under Muslim rule, and that they can rely on our peaceful coexistance with them, or
2. Christians and Jews believe we consider them rejecters of the truth who will end up in the hellfire, that we are commanded to fight them unless they forge treaties with us or pay Jizya, and that they can never really trust us to be good neighbors to them?

I have two points to mention:


1- You seem to present me with a choice between two alternatives [1 and 2].


In fact, they are not alternatives. They both represent Islam


Jews and Christians [People of the Book/Scripture] are a special class of Kuffaar [disbelievers]. Unlike other Kuffaar [disbelievers], Muslims are allowed to eat from the animals they slaughter [with certain conditions] and Muslim men are allowed to marry chaste Jewish and Christian women.


With regards to protection under Muslim rule, then that is not only for the People of the Book/Scripture but any other Kaafir [disbeliever] who's a citizen of the Islamic State has that right of protection under Muslim rule.


2- In alternative 2, you wrote the following:

Christians and Jews believe we consider them rejecters of the truth who will end up in the hellfire, that we are commanded to fight them unless they forge treaties with us or pay Jizya, and that they can never really trust us to be good neighbors to them?

To begin with, Allah the Almighty used the phrase "People of the Scripture" in the same verse where he ordered Muslims to fight them and extract the jizya from them:

قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ​

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 9:29]


So, calling them "People of the Scripture" does not mean that an Islamic State [under certain conditions that prevent terrorism] cannot fight Jews and Christians.



And that should not cause the People of the Book to be concerned about the Muslims who live in their countries. Please read the following part of a fatwa [religious opinion] of Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, which was given as an answer to question no. 26721:

8- The Muslims believe that it is not permissible, under any circumstances whatsoever, for a Muslim to mistreat a non-Muslim who is not hostile towards Islam; so the Muslim should not commit aggression against him, or frighten him, or terrorize him, or steal his wealth, or embezzle him, or deprive him of his rights, or deny him his trust, or deny him his wages, or withhold from him the price of his goods when buying from him or withhold the profits of a partnership if he is in a business partnership with him.

9- The Muslims believe that it is obligatory upon the Muslims to honour treaties or agreements made with a non-Muslim party. If a Muslim has agreed to their conditions when seeking permission to enter their country (i.e., a visa) and has promised to adhere to that, then it is not permissible for him to commit mischief in their land, to betray anyone, to steal, to kill or to do any destructive action, and so on.

Source: http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=26721&ln=eng



***********************************************
***********************************************

Conclusion​

In summary, the people of the world now -i.e., after the advent of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him)- are divided into two types; Muslims and Kuffaar [disbelievers]. There's a special class of Kuffaar called the People of the Book/Scripture.


And that means that the -sadly- popular view among Muslims that the people of the world are three classes [Muslims, People of the Book/Scripture and Kuffaar] is just totally wrong.


I wish you all the best brother ayman1.


I ask for Allah's forgiveness if I had said something wrong.



Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[Pathan Khan]

ASALAM ALAKOM

Sister be patient GOD is with us.Allah gives food to all his creation even those who lives inside the stones Mashallah.so ALLAH will help you ALLAH will Guide you and May his Mercy and Blessing be upon you in these hard times.And sister respect your parents because they are with you nomatter they are christians but they are your parents because you would know that Paradise lies beneath our parents Feet.they are closer to you they can understand you and will one day become Muslims like you Inshallah because Allah always helps those who went on Allah way so you are Mashallah on Allah way and Allah Will help you in these most difficult times.Ammen.I Have trust in Allah I came to UK from a backward area of pakistan for Studies i was totally alone and i spent last 8 months as the most difficult time.EVEN A TIME CAME SO THAT FOR 3 or four days i didnt had anything to eat but Mashallah Allah helped me through it ALLAH-O-AKBAR.Sister i am in hertfordshire and i am your brother you can count on me when ever you want me i can give my life for my sister.
ALLAH-O-AKBAR

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum,


Thank you brothers al-Kashmiri and Imad for your kind posts.


Brother Imad touched upon a very important point when he said:

If you read the posts which has been posted by brother bluegazer very carefully.....

I emphasized some of the words brother Imad wrote to make my point very clear.


There were sometimes where I proceeded to respond to a certain post, and then I discovered that I was mistaken because I did not read that post very carefully.


I realise that my posts can get a bit long, but I don't do that to bore anyone away from reading them. It's just that there's a very prevalent wrong idea among the masses of the Muslims [and even among some who would consider themselves well educated Muslims] that nowadays [i.e., after the advent of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him)] people are either Muslims, People of the Book or Kuffaar.


That a very serious mistake in the Islamic Creed.


After the advent of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) people are either Muslims or Kuffaar [disbelievers]. The People of the Book are a special category of Kuffaar [disbelievers] but NOT an independent category.


Why does this wrong understanding continue to persist in spite of the very clear verses of the Qur'an that show that the People of the Book are Kuffaar [disbelievers]?


I have mentioned some of the reasons in post #20 on this thread:

I think many Muslims have a hard time calling all non Muslims Kuffaar because the term Kuffaar has been tied up in many Muslims' minds with armed Jihad under the Islamic State. The only time they hear the term Kaafir is when they see historic TV series where Muslims fight the Kuffaar. The idea that a Kaafir simply means a person who does not believe in Islam just doesn't register.


There's also the fear in many Muslims' minds that calling all non Muslims as Kuffaar actually opens the door to terrorism. The way to counter this is to explain to Muslims that just because a person is a Kaafir does not mean that it's alright to do whatever you want to him or his property.

It's like as soon as the term Kaafir is uttered, the mind of many Muslims starts to imagine the scenes of the Battles of Badr and Uhud from the film "The Message", they start associating Kaafir only with Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab and the rest of the very fierce enemies of Islam.


And many Muslims get pretty emotional in their denial that all non Muslims nowadays [even Jews and Christians] are Kuffaar [disbelievers].


There was a time when I was sitting on the table eating dinner with a group of my extended family. My aunt's wife said that her son heard a boy in his class say that all Christians are Kuffaar [disbelievers].


Many exclaimed something to the effect that "of course that's wrong, they are People of the Book!"


I said that the boy in my cousin's class was right to say that all Christians are Kuffaar [disbelievers], and I felt like they stared at me like I'm some kind of a terrorist or something!


I have been faced with this more than once, and in all the cases I wasn't talking to simple minded Muslims who had little or no education. I was talking to Muslims who were graduates with University degrees.


There are well educated Muslims who are over 60 and 70 years old, and they still don't know the definition of a Kaafir [disbeliever] and that it includes Jews and Christians.


That's why I responded with long detailed posts. It's not to belittle any of my brothers and sisters in Islam. It's because this basic article of faith has to be understood and believed in in a crystal clear manner by all Muslims once and for all.


If I had succeeded, then all credit is due to Allah the Almighty. If I had failed, then it's my own fault.


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum,


To the administrator and the moderators of TurnToIslam, there seems to be a problem with brother Imad's post.


Every time a member posts a new post on this thread, brother Imad's post still appears as the last post on this thread.


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

as salamu alaykum,
I completely agree with Imad!!!

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother ayman1,


Thank you for your kind wishes.


I'd like to point out three things:


1- You wrote:

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions as I see no benefit but only harm and ego from calling others names they don't appreciate.

a) I have already responded in post #18 to the argument that using the phrase Kuffaar [disbelievers] to describe all non Muslims [including Jews and Christians] should not cause Muslims to have an ego. In case you couldn't find it, here it is:

However, a Muslim should definitely not feel any ego when referring to non Muslims as Kuffaar [disbelievers]. I can think of three reasons:

1- No Muslim [including myself] can guarantee that he will die as a Muslim. That is why all Muslims should supplicate to God Almighty on a regular basis to strengthen their faith and to protect us from disbelief.


I'm sure that you're aware that there are people who were Muslims [either born into Muslim families or reverted to Islam] and then left the religion of Islam. If a Muslim thinks he's absolutely immune from this happening to him, then this Muslim has a very serious problem.


2- There are examples of the best among humanity [prophets (peace be upon them all)] who asked God Almighty to die as Muslims. That means that there was no ego in their hearts, and as such we ordinary humans [who are not prophets] should be even more concerned about asking God Almighty to die as Muslims and not to carry any ego for being Muslims.


God Almighty related to us that Prophet Joseph [peace be upon him] said:

My Lord, You have given me [something] of sovereignty and taught me of the interpretation of dreams. Creator of the heavens and earth, You are my protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Cause me to die a Muslim and join me with the righteous.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 12:101]


Being a Muslim is a great gift from Allah the Almighty. He said:

But those who believed and did righteous deeds - We charge no soul except [within] its capacity. Those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. And We will have removed whatever is within their breasts of resentment, [while] flowing beneath them are rivers. And they will say, "Praise to Allah , who has guided us to this; and we would never have been guided if Allah had not guided us. Certainly the messengers of our Lord had come with the truth." And they will be called, "This is Paradise, which you have been made to inherit for what you used to do."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 7:42-43]


3- Even if someone is a Kaafir [disbeliever] in the present time, that does not rule out the possibility the he will enter Islam one day.

And even if he died as a non Muslim, do I know that the call to Islam has reached this individual in a clear and undistorted way so as to make him responsible for not becoming a Muslim?

b) As for the argument of "calling others names they don't appreciate", I have already explained many times [and proved my point using verses of the Qur'an] that Kaafir simply means "disbeliever" or "unbeliever". Once this is explained properly to non Muslims, then they'll feel no insult.


If they'll still feel insulted, then I should not compromise my religion in seeking to please the Kuffaar [disbelievers] by saying that calling them Kuffaar [disbelievers] is wrong, because when Allah the Almighty calls them [including the Jews and Christians] Kuffaar [disbelievers] then I, a slave of Allah the Almighty, dare not say that the term my Lord has used is wrong.


That does not mean that I say we should always call them Kuffaar [disbelievers] and no other title but Kuffaar. With Jews and Christians, I can also use the term "People of the Book". With other Kuffaar [disbelievers] I can use the wider term of "non Muslims". But if they ask me whether they can be called Kuffaar, then I'll answer "yes", and I'll explain what the word means.


If you check out my posts in TurnToIslam, you see that in the vast majority of cases I have never addressed non Muslims as Kuffaar. But not addressing them as Kuffaar when calling them to Islam or interacting with them is one thing, and denying that a Muslim has the right to call them Kuffaar -as you have done brother ayman1- is something completely different.



2- You wrote:

One pagan woman used to throw garbage in front of the prophet's door early every morning. Every morning when he opened the door to go out, he'd see the garbage pile and either he or Khadija would put it away. One morning, he opened the door and there was no pile of garbage outside! Instead of feeling good about it, the prophet, peace be upon him, wondered what happened. He asked around and learned that the woman had fallen ill. Guess what he did. He went to visit her at her house and wish her to get well!! That's the character of a Muslim. No wonder God told us that "in the messenger of God you have a beautiful example."

I don't know how authentic this story is. I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with information as to the source and authenticity of this story.


For arguments sake only, I will say that this story is authentic. Don't you find it strange that this pagan woman became a Muslim even though the Qur'an is filled with verses that called pagans Kuffaar [disbelievers]?


And don't you find it strange that many of the Companions of the Prophet [peace be upon him] also became Muslims after a life of worshipping idols even though there are many verses in the Qur'an that called them Kuffaar [disbelievers]?


3- You wrote:

I see all non-Muslims as potential Muslims! Without such attitude, it is futile to make da`wa in my humble opinion.

And I too see all non-Muslims as potential Muslims!


But what has that got to do with our debate?


You seem to think that calling non Muslims "Kuffaar" [disbelievers] - which is the term Allah the Almighty used many times in the Qur'an- is incompatible for wishing that these Kuffaar [disbelievers] become Muslims.


Why did you reach such a conclusion?


There are many non Muslims who have read a translation of the Qur'an and saw that Allah the Almighty called them "disbelievers" [pronounced as Kuffaar in Arabic] and yet they became Muslims with the grace of Allah.


And that shows that your point of view is wrong.



4- I will re-post the opinion of Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen. It's an answer to question no. 3996 [Ruling on giving a copy of the Qur’an with a translation to a kaafir]. I'll post it first in Arabic, then in English:

سؤال:
السؤال : هل يجوز إعطاء الكفار ترجمة للقرآن تحتوي على النص باللغة العربية من اجل الدعوة ؟

الجواب:
الجواب:
الحمد لله
عرضنا السؤال التالي على فضيلة الشيخ محمد بن صالح العثيمين :
ما حكم إعطاء الكافر ترجمة للقرآن تحتوي على النص باللغة العربية والترجمة والتفسير بنفس الحجم ؟
فأجاب حفظه الله :
المعروف - سلمك الله - عند العلماء أنه لا يجوز أن يسلّط الكافر على القرآن ، ولكن يدعو الكافر - إذا كان صادقاً يريد أن يعرف عن القرآن - يدعوه إلى المكتبة سواء كانت مكتبة بيته أو مكتبة عامة ويريه القرآن بين يديه . انتهى ، وإذا وجدت ترجمة لمعاني القرآن الكريم دون وجود النصّ العربي فلا حرج في إعطائها للكافر ، والله أعلم

الشيخ محمد بن صالح العثيمين

​

Source: http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3996&ln=ara

Question:

Is it permissible to give for Da'wah to the non-Muslims a translation of the meanings of the Qur'aan which accompanies the original Arabic text as well?


Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

We put this question to Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen: what is the ruling on giving a kaafir a copy of the Qur’aan containing the text in Arabic and a translation and commentary amounting to half of the content?

He replied, may Allaah preserve him:

“What is known among the scholars is that it is not permissible to give a kaafir power over the Qur’aan (i.e., put it at his disposal), but if a kaafir is sincere in his desire to know more about the Qur’aan, a person can invite him to come to a library – either a public library or his own home library, where he can show him the Qur’aan.”

If you find a translation of the meanings of the Qur’aan without the Arabic text then there is nothing wrong with giving that to a kaafir. And Allaah knows best.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen

Source: http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3996&ln=eng


Do you think that Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen was wrong to refer to a person who has a "sincere in his desire to know more about the Qur’aan" as a "Kaafir"?


5- In all of my posts addressed to you in this debate, brother ayman1, I have backed my arguments with the use of verses of the Qur'an and I have shown that my understanding of these verses is the correct understanding by quoting the views of scholars of Islam known for their firm grounding in knowledge, their piety and their understanding of the Qur'an and authentic sayings of the Prophet [peace be upon him] as the Companions understood these two sources.


Would you be kind enough as to back up your arguments with verses of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet [peace be upon him] and show that your understanding of them is correct by quoting scholars of Islam known for their firm grounding in knowledge, their piety and their understanding of the Qur'an and authentic sayings of the Prophet [peace be upon him] as the Companions understood these two sources?


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[Islam4meandyou]

Assalamu alaikom. I reverted to Islam Aug 2003. In the beginning it was really hard my mom to understand why I wannted to be Muslim. She told me I should not have to wear my scarf and "Jesus died on the cross"(God forgive me). I had to keep explaining to her that this is the life for me, what I believe, and I am HAPPY. Try to show your family how happy you really are and eventually they'll leave you alone with all the trying to get you to be Christian. Islam completes this life, so just ak Allah for guidance. You should have patience with them and be very humble and peaceful with them. Allah will bless you Inshallah when you do this. Allah be with you.

 

[Islam4meandyou]

Oh and now my mom is happy for me and is very understanding with my way of life as a Muslim, alhamdililah! Having a non muslim family is challenging, but even the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) had non believers in his family! Peace and patience are very strong values of Islam! go to freequran.org, they'll mail you alot of good books, including a DVD-How to pray and computer software with ALL HADEETH in Eng and Arabic!

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

What I see happening here is the denotation of the word..what it means..and the connotation..how we add sublte hues to the meaning and sometimes personalize the word in a particular context are being confused.

I am old. A spade is a spade is spade. Kuffir is outside the realm of being a Muslim. There is not a negative connotation. It is personal choice. When the light of Islam was brought to a person and they remain in the dark, that is their choice.

We do not have time to be politically correct in Islam. Arabic is the language of Allah. If the Prophet(swas) used the term, it makes no difference to me if no other soul uses it, I will. Arabic is the lanuage of Truth. Alhumdulilah.

 

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

:salam2:

Jazakum Allahu khayran all of you for your advices and contributions in this thread!!!

I hope Sister Hannah that the replies were of help to you. You certainly didn`t insult your family by referring to them as kuffars. You meant that they are nonbelievers of Islam (may Allah SWT guide them to Islam). You used the word correctly.

I think we have exhausted the issue of (kuffar) and gone off topic. Brother Bluegazer was very clear and correct in his reply.

I would like to close the thread with a quote from Brother Imad (had to delete his original post because of server problems when he posted) and a quote from Brother Bluegazer. Please read Bluegazer`s replies very carefully again, because as he rightly said ''there's a very prevalent wrong idea among the masses of the Muslims [and even among some who would consider themselves well educated Muslims] that nowadays [i.e., after the advent of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him)] people are either Muslims, People of the Book or Kuffaar.


That a very serious mistake in the Islamic Creed.


After the advent of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) people are either Muslims or Kuffaar [disbelievers]. The People of the Book are a special category of Kuffaar [disbelievers] but NOT an independent category.


Why does this wrong understanding continue to persist in spite of the very clear verses of the Qur'an that show that the People of the Book are Kuffaar [disbelievers]? ''

Assalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wbarakatuh,

Allah says

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَِ

Translation: " Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance" [An-Nahl verse 125]

I think brother Bluegazer knows this verse of the Qoraan. If you read the posts which has been posted by brother bluegazer very carefully you will see he is right.

I don't think he denied wisdom and beautifull preaching. if someone invites Christians and jews who are kufaar with wisdome and beautiful preaching and explains to them the meaning of Kufaar in the Quraan, they will insha Allah understand why they are called kufaar. Simple

christians from Egypt will feel very offended when they are accused not to believe in Allah. Because they think they believe in Allah. It does not belong to wisdome to start using the word Kufaar when you are inviting christians from egypt. This does not belong to wisdome or beautifull preaching.

But to say they are not Kufaar is something else. If a muslim on this website uses the word Kufaar, he or she has the right to use it, because they are Kufaar. I don't think the sister who used the word Kufaar in her letter is using it against her family when she is inviting them. If you start shouting to them:" You kufaar" . This does not make any sense and it does not belong to good preaching. It does not belong to wisdome. I don't think the sister is doing this.

So please you have to understand the differences

Wassalmoelaikoem warahmatullahi wbarakatuh,

Imad

As for the argument of "calling others names they don't appreciate", I have already explained many times [and proved my point using verses of the Qur'an] that Kaafir simply means "disbeliever" or "unbeliever". Once this is explained properly to non Muslims, then they'll feel no insult.


If they'll still feel insulted, then I should not compromise my religion in seeking to please the Kuffaar [disbelievers] by saying that calling them Kuffaar [disbelievers] is wrong, because when Allah the Almighty calls them [including the Jews and Christians] Kuffaar [disbelievers] then I, a slave of Allah the Almighty, dare not say that the term my Lord has used is wrong.


That does not mean that I say we should always call them Kuffaar [disbelievers] and no other title but Kuffaar. With Jews and Christians, I can also use the term "People of the Book". With other Kuffaar [disbelievers] I can use the wider term of "non Muslims". But if they ask me whether they can be called Kuffaar, then I'll answer "yes", and I'll explain what the word means.


If you check out my posts in TurnToIslam, you see that in the vast majority of cases I have never addressed non Muslims as Kuffaar. But not addressing them as Kuffaar when calling them to Islam or interacting with them is one thing, and denying that a Muslim has the right to call them Kuffaar -as you have done brother ayman1- is something completely different.

THREAD CLOSED

:salam2: