Article Crimes and penalties in the Bible and Islam

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by WhiteKnight, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. Cariad
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    :)' I see these words alpha and omega do refer to God, as God the Father and also God the Son, as you say Christians believe I am suppressed to hear the words from yourself ;) there are other verses that show the same meaning.

    In regards to prophets... In Luke for example below the prophets were proclaimed until John (the Baptist) after that time the prophecy was in motion in Yeshua the Redeemer. God gave us Prophets (Old Testament) and Apostles (New Testament) for the establishing of the church. Prophets pointed ahead to Yeshua, Apostles point back to Yeshua. But, now God speaks to us through His Son. What need of prophets for those who have the Living Gospel :)

    Luke 16 - The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

    Of course there is likely to be other Prophets, Joseph Smith was was the last. Many people believe in him and follow his teachings, yet was he a true prophet? The Bible says we must test the spirits, (prophets) and gives a criteria for doing so. Maybe you see prophets in the Quran as the same! it is not so in the Bible, there are major prophets those who brought revelation from YHWH, and minor Prophets which foretold events or Warner's .

    The account of Ishmael and Isaac is an interesting one I think. I wonder if Sarah, Abrahams wife, could have know the strife her impatience with God has cost the world. I see her life is a lesson that we should have faith that God will provide..in His own time. :) you see Ishmael as the father of the Arab nations? This may be true and for sure YHWH did make good on His promise to Abraham in regards to Ishmael, but His covenant He made through Isaac.

    In Genesis
    15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

    17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

    19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

    Genesis 16:11-12

    11 And the angel of the Lord said to her,

    “Behold, you are pregnant
    and shall bear a son.
    You shall call his name Ishmael,
    because the Lord has listened to your affliction.
    12 He shall be a wild donkey of a man,
    his hand against everyone
    and everyone's hand against him,
    and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.”

    So ya Arabia became a great nation through Gods promise for Ishmael, but that does not change the fact that Gods covenant was through Isaac. Yeshua was from the line of Isaac and He is fulfilment and promise of Gods final covenant with mankind.

    Well, of course you will see things differently, ;) and that is OK.

    Peace. C
  2. WhiteKnight
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    I didn't mean at all to offend you by saying 'you Christians', if you thought that I offended you, I'm sorry then ;). However, Jesus Christ didn't say straight away "There's no prophet after me". Moreover, the word 'Law' has a lot of interpretations which we had debated formerly :D.

    Well, of course God's covenant with Isaac is perpetual, but only those who believe in God from the Israelite will be blessed by God's covenant. Can the wicked from Israel be blessed through God's covenant o_O?. Those who betrayed Jesus Christ and 'forsook' God cannot be blessed at all.

    God's perpetual covenant with Isaac is still 'in work', as Jesus Christ would save the humanity from 'evil' and rule over it justly as we Muslims believe. But this doesn't mean that God's perpetual covenant with Isaac is not 'intertwined' with Ishmael's bless. In other words, the prophethood of Muhammad (the final prophet) doesn't contradict with what is written in the Bible about God's never-ending covenant with Isaac and his generations, it even 'integrates' with it and paves the way for 'the second coming of the Christ' as a victorious leader and ruler :). In Islam, Muslims will help Jesus Christ in uprooting evil from the entire globe.

    Muslims (the offshoot of Ishmael's divine bless) will cooperate with Prophet Jesus (the epitome of God's perpetual covenant with Isaac as you said) to kill the antichrist and spread peace across the earth. Jesus will be the ruler of the whole world then. This interpretation does not contradict with either God's covenant with Isaac in the Bible or His bless to Ishmael by sending His final prophet from his children. Briefly, prophet Muhammad is 'one of the main factors' in the achievement of Isaac's covenant' indirectly :D.

    God's bless to Ishmael, even if it is small compared to that of his brother Isaac, means that the Arabs would be a great sophisticated nation that will help in achieving God's covenant with Isaac. Would they be a great nation by being pagans and ignorant o_O, or by worshiping a single God and forming such a great civilization with the aid of His inspiration? I want you please to answer this question plainly and come to the point ;)

    So, please. I want you to answer the previous question. "Would the Arabs be a great nation by being pagans and ignorant o_O, or by worshiping a single God and forming such a great civilization with the aid of His inspiration?"

    Peace be upon you, my lady :)
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  3. Cariad
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    You did not offend me at all. :) without a doubt the pagans of Arabia being brought to the One God is a good thing. God only inspires good, as God is all that is good to follow His Word must lead to enlightenment. Is that plain enough? ;)

    Yet I may add a question.. If you feel it the will of God that the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael were to unite and cooperate in spreading peace throughout the world on the return of the Messiah... How pray do you see the state and turmoil in the Arab nations today and how will the historical enmity between nations will work to that end?

    Also you do not see Joseph Smith as a prophet then?;) one tiny point more, if I may ask what covenant do you see muslims follow?

    Blessings :) C
  4. WhiteKnight
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    First of all, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told us that one day the Arabs will be in turmoil (as the Christian and Jewish societies passed through a period of turmoil and upheaval in the past). However, one day the Muslims and Arabs will reunite to uproot evil from the whole world with the aid of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), you may have heard that saying before "the night gets darkest right before dawn ;)"…Is that clear?

    We Muslims follow the covenant that God will pass the earth to his righteous pious servants in the future. God says in the Holy Quran (21: 105):-

    "And certainly We wrote in the Book (Psalms) after the reminder (Torah) that My righteous servants will inherit the land."

    Psalm (37:9) says:-

    "9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth"

    We Muslims follow the covenant of God with Abraham (Isaac and Ishmael).But on a greater scale, we follow God's covenant with the whole mankind that His righteous servants will inherit the earth one day and the wicked will be destroyed once and for all :). Not only will those descended from Isaac and Ishmael be blessed and given the Earth in the future, but in Islam also all the true pious servants of God will be awarded and have 'a great portion' of God's inheritance. To put it another way, Muslims believe in God's covenant with Isaac and His bless to Ishmael, but we believe in God's universal covenant with the mankind as well ….get the picture?

    By the way, Muslims do not believe in the prophethood of Joseph Smith. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the seal of the prophets in Islam; his message is the final divine message as we believe :)

    That's everything about the covenant Muslims believe in – Not just God's covenant with Abraham, but God's covenant with the whole mankind as written in the Holy Quran and Psalm 37, I hope I explained it well :)

    Peace and God's blessing be upon you :D
  5. Cariad
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    Yes you explain it well, so I see your position. I guess we see covenants differently. God made many covenants with different peoples in the Bible. I cannot find anything in the Quran about any covenants directly with muslims only the one from the Torah. Yet no mention of the eternal covenant??

    Christians do not believe in Joseph Smith either ;) by the Bible standard we are given to test prophets he fails. The point is, that people can say I am a prophet, and indeed a great many number of people will follow their word. So can we say indeed that God will never send another prophet? The world is in many ways in a worse state than it ever was, if ever divine guidance was needed some might say it is now.

    I do not see the need for any other prophet after Yeshua, and I struggle to see what you have in Islam is better than what I have already :) no offence meant by this. So as you see Mohammed message was final and divine I see the same for Yeshua. Do they bring the same message? I'm not sure they do, except for the core important one which is the one God. We can at least agree on that, and for the rest we must go with our heart. I'm hoping you understand what I mean.

    BTW, a question please, you mention the psalms ... Is this the same psalms of David from the Bible? If so, why do you think it is important to muslims? I can think of other Bibical books that have greater significance than the psalms. What do you learn from this book?

    Blessings. C
  6. Um Ibrahim
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    Um Ibrahim Alhamdulilah :)

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    Im fascinated with this thread. It is interesting to hear from a christian the view of Christianity. Cariad, i just have a quick question, so if u believe God has a son, are u then saying that God had a wife as well whom He had an intimate relationship with?
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  7. Cariad
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    No, no please do not even think such a thing...:eek: It is blasphemous. The term "son" is figurative. YHWH never has need for physical relationship. Yeshua begotten of YHWH, the same in essence. Yeshua is the Word of YHWH and always existed.

    This is why it is good to maybe hear what Christians belief rather than misunderstanding what we believe. :) I'm pleased you like reading the thread. I believe it is important that we all people of faith, make the effort to understand each other. We see actually, we are not that different and share many same values. Most importantly we love God. :)
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  8. WhiteKnight
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    I mentioned that verse from the psalms 'by chance' because it underscores that the Righteous will inherit the earth in the future, which is mentioned also in the Quran :). God told us in the Holy Quran that he had inspired Prophet David the psalms (al zabur in Islam). David had been praising the Lord by reciting those psalms as we Muslims were told by God and His prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet David's voice and worship to God was so perfect and fascinating that He mentioned it in the Holy Quran (that is why God mentioned the psalms in Quran particularly). God says in the Holy Quran (17:55):-


    "55 And thy Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth. And certainly We made some of the prophets to excel others, and to David We gave the Zabur (the psalms)."


    As Christians believe that the New Testament ''is an update'' to the Hebrew Bible, We Muslims believe that God's word the Quran ''is an update to the Whole Bible – including David's Psalms –". We Muslims have to believe that the Bible is the word of God. However, it was updated by the Quran in our belief :). Thus, the Quran is adequate to us and we don't need to depend on the Holy Bible even though it is the word of God and His revelation to His prophets beginning from Moses to Jesus. Quran is God's final revelation to the humanity that ''updated the Bible'' :). We respect the Bible the same as Christians and Jews do. God even cursed those who had abandoned the bible – from either Jews or Christians - in the Quran :).


    God made a direct covenant with Muslims in the Holy Quran as he did in the Holy Bible. If you read the Holy Quran, you can see many verses talking about that covenant :). For example, Prophet Abraham supplicated to God concerning Ishmael while building the Sacred House in Mecca (I know that is not mentioned in the Bible – it is a matter of beliefs ;) ) saying - the Holy Quran (1:127-129)-:-


    " 127 And when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord, accept from us surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing.128 Our Lord, and make us both (Abraham and Ishmael) submissive to Thee, and (raise) from out offspring, a nation submissive to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully); surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. 129 Our Lord, and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy messages and teach them the Book and the Wisdom, and purify them Surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise."


    Furthermore, God said in the Holy Quran (24:55):-


    " Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will surely make them rulers in the earth as He made those before them rulers and that He will surely establish for them their religion, which He has chosen for them, and that He will surely give them security in exchange after their fear. They will serve Me, not associating aught with Me. And whoever is ungrateful after this, they are the transgressors."


    I know it is a matter of doctrines and each one of us see things 'in a different light'. In the judgment day, God will tell us the truth about what we were arguing about in the terrestrial life. Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad's message is sequel to the messages of the biblical prophets and that it is done by him :). Christians believe that Jesus Christ's message is the final one and that it is done by him :)

    #Talking about Doctrines and beliefs :D


    Muslims and Christians all around the world should argue about the differences in Islam and Christianity gently, wisely and logically without any extremism or violation. There are some Christians who curse the Quran, insult Prophet Muhammad, accuse Islam of being a pagan religion and such claims that are ''senseless''. On the other hand, some Muslims curse the Christian Doctrine, and even insult the Bible sometimes o_O o_O (which is totally forbidden in Islam). Any religious dialog should be built on respect, tolerance and moderation. Finally, I'd like to say that no one should judge Islam by its 'false' followers' behavior. Islam calls for peace, justice, equality, dignity, brotherhood and democracy. Saying that Islam is a terroristic religion that calls for bloodshed and that Prophet Muhammad was a savage warmonger is an "Oxymoron" as rhetoricians would say :D


    got it :)?


    Peace and God's blessings be upon you :D
  9. Cariad
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    I maybe thought it was the attraction of poetry that the psalms was included, because also parts of the Quran are poetical in nature. King David was believed to be the author of only some of the psalms, about 70 I think :)
    I like the Psalms they call us to join believers throughout the ages in worshiping God, in proclaiming his majesty, in expressing our fears and hopes to him and, most importantly, placing our absolute trust in him, our Creator and Redeemer. They are sung rather than spoken. Many of the Psalms deal with the Messiah. Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before Yeshua and before crucifixion was known, yet it describes Yeshuas death.

    My favourite Psalm is Psalm 23 here it is see what you think of the words. :)

    Psalm 23

    23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

    2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

    4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

    6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

    You may not be that interested in the Psalms but I thought I would share anyway. :D
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    These are the verses I could find on the covenant in the Quran. There may be more, I have to confess I find the Quran difficult to understand and sometimes repeats things. When I look at the verses below it kind of refers retrospectively to the covenants made with the children of Israel.

    2:83 Remember, when We made a covenant with the people of israel and said: "Worship no one but God, and be good to your parents and your kin, and to orphans and the needy, and speak of goodness to men; observe your devotional obligations, and give zakat (the due share of your wealth for the welfare of others)," you went back (on your word), except only a few, and paid no heed.

    84 And when We made a covenant with you not to shed your blood and not to expel one another from your homes, you agreed and were all witnesses.

    2.40. O Children of israel! Remember My favor that I bestowed upon you, and fulfill My covenant (which I made with you through your Prophets), so that I fulfill your covenant, and of Me alone be in awe and fear (in awareness of My Power and of your being My servants).

    This is very true. :) I am content to let God the Father be my judge.

    I also agree with you 100%. We may not always see eye to eye on some matters but on the important one I think we do. :) I never have seen Islam as violent, some of its followers can be violent and hateful towards others who are not Muslim, but they should be asking the question.. Are they truly Muslim? This is the same for Christians... A Christian should be following always the teachings of Yeshua, he taught to love ones enemies and extend the hand of peace always.. Yet not all Christians heed this lesson :( which is a cause for sadness. We owe it to God our creator and also to ourselves to find the common ground where we can meet in peace and harmony. I feel many do so already... But I always say we should always be trying the harder in any matters that may bring us closer to God.

    Blessings. C
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    Btw.. Why do you keep asking ..... Got it... :D:D
  12. WhiteKnight
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    Just asking :D, by the way where are you from (If I am not intruding xD)?
  13. Um Ibrahim
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    Um Ibrahim Alhamdulilah :)

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    But Yesua or Jesus, peace be upon him didn't aways exist. He was born just like the rest of us. The only difference which makes his birth special and mireculous is the fact that he does not have a father. whether figurative or literal, I'm still confused on how Christians came to believe that God has a son. God is unique. There is nothing like Him. He is above His creation.

    But thank u very much for trying to explain things to me. We all dont have to agree but we must be tolerant and peaceful towards each other as u said.
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    dwi o gymru, dwi o Cymraeg ac yn byw yn y DU..:D
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    You take your knowledge of Yeshua from the Quran, I take mine from the Bible, which contain the the teachings of Yeshua. Yeshua said He was with God the Father from all eternity Yeshua is the Word of God. I think it also refers to Yeshua as the Word of God in the Quran, or maybe it says A word.... Which of course is very different. Yet looking at the context I believe it implies THE Word. Yeshua also said that all the Father is the Son is also. Christians understand that Yeshua is the same in essence as God the Father and also the Holy Spirit. You see this as three gods, it is not this at all, and really to hear this said is quite offensive to many Christians. However when I see this is a misunderstanding of the concept of trinity and not deliberate I don't see it as cause for offence. We also believe that God the Father is unique and above His creation, yet are given to understand that God so loves His creation that it is Gods wish we reside with Him and share in His love and Grace. We cannot do that in our sinful state so Gods gives us a way, a gift.

    God could have just given His Word as a grown man with no mother or father but it was important that Yeshua be mortal man. To say God has a son in human terms is a really bad thing :( the Bible is clear that begotten son in regards to Yeshua does not imply in any way a sexual union with Mary. I don't understand how the Quran implies this error in understanding of what Christians believe. Or how you have come to this understanding on the issue of Son.

    Do you ever wonder why Yeshua was born this way? Without a father?

    I hope I have explained an aspect of Christianity that puzzled you :) all knowledge is good I think. I am here because I wish to find out the Islamic view and how it compares to mine. It is interesting but usually instead of wanting to know why I see things as I do muslims usually wish to point out the error of my ways and convince me of the truth of theirs. ;)

    Obviously we won't agree on some points but where we disagree it is interesting to see the reasons why our points of view differ. Very often in comes down to a simple misunderstanding.

    Peace and blessings. C
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    WhiteKnight, we don't see the New Testament as an "update" of the Old Testament. We use the Old Testament as it was given, it is important because it explains the unfolding of YHWHs plan for mankind. We see the New Testament as a fulfilment of the Old. But it does not in any way invalidate or change what went before.

    When you say the Quran is an "update" of the whole Bible I struggle to see in what way, like what has it brought new that we didn't already know. We had the law, and we worshipped the One God YHWH... and this is the main message of the Quran... Ya. How is it an update when the message is the same?

    Blessings. C
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    An update in the "Text" not the message. The Holy Quran is God's final revelation in our belief :)

    Peace be upon you :)
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    Quran didn't say at all that Christians believe God is ''the biological father'' of Jesus, and that Jesus had come to the world through ''sexual reproduction''. The Quran just said that it is wrong of the Christians to think that Jesus is God's son who is formed from the same matter of His :). In Islam, there's no god but God and the Holy Trinity is ''not around''. Thus, God is one and he cannot be ''divided'' into God the Son, God the father and the Holy Spirit. However, many Muslims think that the Quran says that Christians believe that God ''begot'' Jesus through ''sexual reproduction'', while God didn't say so in the Holy Quran.

    Briefly, the Quran knows that you don't say God had begotten Jesus. But believing in the Holy Trinity is ''wrong'' in Islam (By the way…I don't mean to offend you at all by saying this ;))

    In our religion, Jesus Christ is a human whom had been chosen by God to be the awaited Messiah and His prophet. Jesus (PBUH) is a prophet whose birth was ''miraculous''. We do not say that he was ''an illegitimate son'' whose mother Saint Mary (Peace be upon her) had given birth to him through getting involved in ''illegal intercourse'' with a Roman soldier as some Jewish Rabbis claimed in the Talmud :( :(. Prophet Jesus is venerated to us because he is one of God's prophets and the awaited Messiah who would save the Earth from the antichrist and uproot evil in ''the end of days''. Believing in Jesus as a god or a mortal human is a matter of beliefs and doctrines :).We will know the truth in the Judgement day.

    Peace and God's blessings be upon you :D
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    The complexity of the Holy Quran is one of God's miracles :). God doesn't repeat things in the Quran ''to fill the empty gaps". God repeats things for many reasons; one of them is for emphasis. You may ask why God had inspired such a complicated scripture to prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The answer to this question can be summed up in just two points:-

    1- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate and couldn't read or write. He was dictating the Quran to his educated companions :). So how can an illiterate person invent and come up with such a complicated divine book???

    2- If you learned Arabic and read the Quran, you would find it so difficult to write something as fluent as it and even understand it, that would make the Islamic scholars compete to interpret, study and keep it; which would keep the Quran one way or another from distortion and oblivion. If anybody wanted to be fluent in Arabic, he should study God's unmistakable Holy Scripture the Quran (i.e Quran is the main source of Arabic rhetoric, syntax and grammar till now). Pagan Arabs in the time of the prophet accused him of sorcery because of God's revelation to him. They said that those verses were so sweet and touching that they couldn't be written by a human. Being them pagans who didn't believe in One God and rather believed in occultism, they said that prophet Muhammad was a sorcerer and whose book was ''a group of magical spells inspired to him by demons in order to bewitch people and convince them to embrace Islam" :D :D.

    Hope you are convinced :) Peace be upon you!!
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    I have to say when I read the Quran I did not get the impression of Yeshua being the result of a sexual union, and therefore a biological son. Yet so many muslims believe or interpret it differently I was thinking it was my error in interpreting the words and it did so imply a biological son. It may be possible as there were many sects at that time and some may have thought of Yeshua as a true son in the biological sense, but it was never mainstream belief. Would God have sent a warning to a small number of people who were mistaken?

    I know the Trinity is a difficult concept for muslims are many are offended by it believing it represents three gods!!:eek: Yet it is how God has revealed Himself to millions of people and granted them the understanding to accept it as not only necessary but logical. :) Now you will be laughing at trinity and logical in the same sentence ;) I'm not offended at all, it is right for me yet wrong for you. It's not a problem the world turns the same and God remains a constant. As you say we will all know the truth one day.

    Blessings. C

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