During Tashhud

[sazk]

salam alaikum,

why do hanafis raise their fingers only once but shaafis raise it throughout the tashhud?

who is correct and what is the proof from sunnah?

JAK

 

[IslamicGirl24]

Both are correct brother. Ulema-e-karam have agreed that both ways are correct. Some Sahaba narrated that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W used to raise his finger only once and some say that he used to raise his finger repeatedly.
its correct either way.

 

[*StarLight*]

:salam2:

Both are correct as the sis above mentions.
It goes according to math'hab.

 

[daywalker]

The right one is the Uama of Syafi'iyyah and other who spoke that according to the Matan (contents) of the Hadits shown that it is must be done from the beginning till the end.

:salam2: Ulama differ and majority agrees with not moving the finger:

Pointing but Not Moving the Finger in the Tashahhud

The Position of Ash-Shaikh Muqbil Al-Waadi’ee (rahimahullaah)

This was the position of Shaikh Muqbil bin Haadee Al-Waadi'ee (rahimahullaah) - i.e. that the finger is NOT moved during the tashahhud, rather one only points with it without moving it. The issue of difference revolves around a single hadeeth reported by Waa'il bin Hujr.

Shaikh Muqbil discusses it in As-Saheehul-Musnad mimmaa laysa fis-Saheehayn, vol.2, pg.265. The narration was recorded by Ibn Maajah, and Waa'il said, "I saw the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) making a circle with his thumb and middle finger and he lifted the one that was next to them (i.e. the index finger), supplicating with it in the Tashahhud."

Shaikh Muqbil said, "This hadeeth is Hasan (good). This hadeeth proves pointing with the finger. However, in reference to moving it, then the only one who narrated that was Zaa'idah bin Qudaamah and he has contradicted 13 narrators (who all narrated this same hadeeth from Waa'il): Bishr bin Al-Mufadhdhal with Abee Daawood, Sufyaan bin 'Uyainah with An-Nasaa'ee, Ath-Thawree with An-Nasaa'ee, 'Abdul-Waahid bin Ziyaad with Ahmad, Shu'bah with Ahmad, Zuhayr bin Mu'aawiyah with Ahmad, 'Abdullaah bin Idrees with Ibn Khuzaymah, Khaalid bin 'Abdillaah At-Tahhaan with Al-Bayhaqee, Muhammad bin Fudhayl with Ibn Khuzaymah, Abul-Ahwas Sallaam bin Sulaym with At-Tayaalisee, Aboo 'Awaanah and Gheelaan bin Jaami' both were quoted by Al-Bayhaqee as mentioning it (i.e. this hadeeth without moving the finger), and all of them reported it from 'Aasim bin Kulayb (who narrated it from his father, from Waa'il) and none of them mentioned moving (the finger) in it.

It was also reported from the companions 'Abdullaah bin Az-Zubayr, 'Abdullaah bin 'Umar, Aboo Humayd As-Saa'idee, Aboo Hurayrah, Sa'd bin Abee Waqqaas, Ibn 'Abbaas, Khaffaaf bin Eemaa', and all of them did not mention moving (the finger). So it is known from this that the report of Zaa'idah is strange and contradicting (Shaathth). And Allaah knows best. The detailed explanation concerning those who reported the hadeeth of these narrators who have opposed Zaa'idah, and (the hadeeths of) these companions can be seen in the research of our noble brother, Ahmad bin Sa'eed, may Allaah preserve him."

The difference is that Shaikh Al-Albaanee considered this a case of Ziyaadatuth-Thiqah (the additional information added in a narration of one of the narrators who is reliable that is not found in the other versions of the hadeeth). This is because Al-Albaanee did not consider the additional wording, "and he would move it" as contradictory because he says that pointing does not negate movement. Shaikh Muqbil went with the basic principle that a Ziyaadah (extra added wording) that contradicts what others who were more reliable or more numerous in their number reported is Shaathth, and thus unaccepted.

an-Nawawi said in 'al-Majmu'' (3/398):

"And should one move his finger when lifting it to point with it? There are several opinions on this. The correct one - which is the clear opinion of the majority of scholars - is that one should not move his finger, and if he does happen to move it, this is makruh and does not nullify his prayer due to it being a minor movement. The second opinion is that it is haram to move his finger, and his prayer is nullified if he moves it...and this is a weak opinion. The third opinion is that it is mustahabb to move it, and their proof for this is the hadith of Wa'il bin Hujr in which he described the Messenger of Allah as placing his hands in the tashahhud, saying: "Then, he would raise his finger, and I saw him moving it to make supplications." This was reported by al-Bayhaqi with an authentic chain, and al-Bayhaqi said: "It is possible that what is meant by 'moving it' is that he lifted it up to point with it, not that he would move it repeatedly.""

the narration of Ibn az-Zubair (Allah be pleased with him), who reported, "The Prophet (Peace be upon him) would point with his finger while supplicating, and he would not move it." This is related by Abu Dawud with a Sahih chain. An-Nawawi also mentioned it
(NB - Both Imams al-Bayhaqi and Nawawi were great Shafi'i scholars of Hadith who followed this Hadith of Ibn al-Zubair, besides so many other scholars of Hadith).

Ibn Qudamah al Hanbali writes in at Mughni;

'He should point with the forefinger raising it at the time of remembering Allah in his tashahhud for what we have narrated earlier, and he should not move it because of the hadeeth of Abdullah bin al Zubair (ra) narrated by Abu Dawood, "The Prophet (saw) would point with his finger and not move it.'

It says in Zad al Mustaqni:

Then (b: after completing the second rak`a) he sits with his left foot spread (and his right raised) with his hands on his thighs, he clenches the pinky and second smallest finger of his right hand and forms a circle with his thumb and middle finger, and points with his index finger (b: without moving it) during the tashahud. (m: So: the finger from beginning to end points without any movement. But herein Sham the finger begins being lowered, and is then raised whenever Allah is mention. This practice is consistent with accounts givenin Al-Muharrir and Al-Mughni is clear. In either case: the finger is not move continuously).

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182790&postcount=9

 

[sazk]

Here is what i found in malik's muwatta

malik's muwatta:

book 3, number 3.13.51:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Muslim ibn Abi Maryam that AIi ibn Abd ar-Rahman al-Muawi said, "Abdullah ibn Umar saw me playing with some small pebbles in the prayer. When I finished he forbade me, saying, 'Do as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, did.' I said, 'What did the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, do?' He said, 'When he sat in the prayer, he placed his right hand on his right thigh and he closed his fist and pointed his index finger, and he placed his left hand on his left thigh. That is what he used to do.' "

Here is what is written in Sahih Muslim:

Sahih Muslim:

book 004, number 1201:

Abdullah b. Zubair narrated on the authority of his father: When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sat in prayer. he placed the left foot between his thigh and shank and stretched the right foot and placed his left hand or his left knee and placed his right hand on his right thigh, and raised his finger.

book 004, number 1202:

Abdullah b. Zubair narrated on the authority of his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sat for supplication, i. e. tashahhud (blessing and supplication), he placed his right hand on his right thigh and his left hand on his left thigh, and pointed with his forefinger, and placed his thumb on his (milddle) finger, and covered his knee with the palm of his left hand..

book 004, number 1203:

Ibn 'Umar reported that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sat for tashahhud he placed his left hand on his left knee. and his right hand on his right knee. and he raised his right finger, which is next to the thumb, making supplication in this way, and he stretched his left hand on his left knee. Another version on the authority of Ibn Umar says: When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sat for tashahhud, he placed his left hand on his left knee and placed his right hand on his right knee, and he formed a ring like (fifty-three) and pointed with his finger of attestation.

book 004, number 1204:

'Ali b. 'Abual-Rahman al-Mu'awi reported: 'Abdullah b. Umar saw me playing with pebbles during prayer. After finishing the prayer he forbade me (to do it) and said: Do as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do. I said: How did Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) do? He said that he (the Messenger of Allah) sat at tashahhud, placed his right palm on the right thigh and closed all his fingers and pointed with the help of finger next to the thumb, and placed his left palm on his right thigh.


those who move the finger say it is to ward of devils. but that doesn't make sense to me. those who point with the finger say that the finger of shahada is raised to testify that "there is no god but Allah" during the tashhud, which seems more reasonable. after all tashhud is a position where you give the shahada.

 

[daywalker]

The conclusion is that "tahrik (move)" does not against the meaning of "isyarat (showing sign)."

:salam2:
what goes against or not isn´t the point, but what it exactly means is the point, and has allready been mentioned how the majority scholars undertood this view by imam nabawi(rh).

 

[sazk]

this is so confusing. is the hadith from zaaidah bin qudaamah, sahih or is it contradicting 13 other narrators?

did ibn zubair say '..he didnot move it(his finger)' ? or is his isnad from bin Ajlan wrong? did usman bin hakim and makhramah bin bukair say '...he did not move it'? or they didn't and bin Ajlan is contradicting with the other two?

 

[Almeftah]

this is so confusing. is the hadith from zaaidah bin qudaamah, sahih or is it contradicting 13 other narrators?

did ibn zubair say '..he didnot move it(his finger)' ? or is his isnad from bin Ajlan wrong? did usman bin hakim and makhramah bin bukair say '...he did not move it'? or they didn't and bin Ajlan is contradicting with the other two?

There was a Hadith saying that the Prophet did not move his finger. Another hadith said that the Prophet did move it. Imam Baihaqhi said: It could mean that the Phophet moved it once to raise his finger, not constantly.

All scholars agreed that the Propher raised a finger during Tashahud. The conflict was in the form of the movement if it is a one time movement or constant all though Tashahud.

 

[daywalker]

The hadits by Abdullah bin Zubair was narrated in Abu Daud (989) and from Al Baghawi in Syarhus Sunnah (III/177-178/676), and inside Dha'if Abu Daud page 78 (989).

And in An Nasa'i (1270), Dha'if An Nasa'i

this very Hadith has not been listed In "Daeef Ahadith of Abu Dawud's Sunan", by his followers; which means to the user of this list that this Hadith is acceptable to them, and is either of the rank of SAHIH or HASAN to the user of this list!

the narration of Ibn az-Zubair (Allah be pleased with him), who reported, "The Prophet (Peace be upon him) would point with his finger while supplicating, and he would not move it." This is related by Abu Dawud with a Sahih chain. An-Nawawi also mentioned it
(NB - Both Imams al-Bayhaqi and Nawawi were great Shafi'i scholars of Hadith who followed this Hadith of Ibn al-Zubair, besides so many other scholars of Hadith).

But if anybody want to classified this narrator as daeef as by sheikhul hadith albani(rh) , and not accepting imam nabawi(rh) and imam bayhaqi(rh) then choice is yours.

 

[alkathiri]

But if anybody want to classified this narrator as daeef as by sheikhul hadith albani(rh) , and not accepting imam nabawi(rh) and imam bayhaqi(rh) then choice is yours.

Imam Nabawi?

i think you meant Imam Nawawi (Rahimahullah)

 

[daywalker]

Imam Nabawi?

i think you meant Imam Nawawi (Rahimahullah)

thats how we poor people speak it out =)

 

[daywalker]

Imams who declare the Hadits of Waa'il bin Hujr as Shahih were:

Explaining the Hadith, al-Bayhaqi (Rahimahullah) says, "The implication of 'he would move it' is that he would point with it, not that he would continue to move it."

Try to read sh. abdul musair before go with pasting the chain =)

 

[daywalker]

The Isnad of Waa'il bin Hujr from Kulaib bin Syihab from Ashim bi Kulaib:
1. Zaaidah bin Qudaamah

This hadeeth proves pointing with the finger. However, in reference to moving it, then the only one who narrated that was Zaa'idah bin Qudaamah and he has contradicted 13 narrators (who all narrated this same hadeeth from Waa'il): Bishr bin Al-Mufadhdhal with Abee Daawood, Sufyaan bin 'Uyainah with An-Nasaa'ee, Ath-Thawree with An-Nasaa'ee, 'Abdul-Waahid bin Ziyaad with Ahmad, Shu'bah with Ahmad, Zuhayr bin Mu'aawiyah with Ahmad, 'Abdullaah bin Idrees with Ibn Khuzaymah, Khaalid bin 'Abdillaah At-Tahhaan with Al-Bayhaqee, Muhammad bin Fudhayl with Ibn Khuzaymah, Abul-Ahwas Sallaam bin Sulaym with At-Tayaalisee, Aboo 'Awaanah and Gheelaan bin Jaami' both were quoted by Al-Bayhaqee as mentioning it (i.e. this hadeeth without moving the finger), and all of them reported it from 'Aasim bin Kulayb (who narrated it from his father, from Waa'il) and none of them mentioned moving (the finger) in it.

It was also reported from the companions 'Abdullaah bin Az-Zubayr, 'Abdullaah bin 'Umar, Aboo Humayd As-Saa'idee, Aboo Hurayrah, Sa'd bin Abee Waqqaas, Ibn 'Abbaas, Khaffaaf bin Eemaa', and all of them did not mention moving (the finger). So it is known from this that the report of Zaa'idah is strange and contradicting (Shaathth). And Allaah knows best. The detailed explanation concerning those who reported the hadeeth of these narrators who have opposed Zaa'idah, and (the hadeeths of) these companions can be seen in the research of our noble brother, Ahmad bin Sa'eed, may Allaah preserve him."

As allready mentioned by sh.muqbil one of the current sheikh time of sh.albani(rh) if i recall.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=309331&postcount=6

 

[daywalker]

Zaaidah bin Qudaamah was not a Dha'if Rawi, he was a verytrust worthy narrators (Rawi). What he narrated considered to be adding what other narrators narrated.

:salam2: akhi read the explanation of sh. muqbil , it will easy for you to udnerstand, if english seems to be on high then dont use any software, ask someone who may explain you that =)

I had to read twice and then i understood.

Salamu alaikkum, I got fatwa from IslamQA on this issue... hope it helps inshallah..

All narration of the fatwa has been allready handled previous in same thread. and also been mentioned the practise of majority scholars by the imam nawawi(rh). jazakallahu khair.

 

[Live4thehereafte]

i hope this helps you brothers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQfZ_-uCWhw