FreedomFighter
Junior Member
.......................
Hi
- Thread starter The Skeptic
- Start date
The Skeptic
Junior Member
And the point of my reply was to show you that since you didn't analyze the beliefs you mentioned, your idea of the actual beliefs was greatly distorted. Which is why I asked you to read more.
Actually it does matter how we look at things, and how we define things. For example, people around the world have personal definitions of god. This view vary from person to person. Which is why as I said before I'm an Agnostic-Atheist. I'm an Agnostic to the general idea of god. There may very well be a god of some sort, but I have no observable evidence for it (nor is there an objective definition for a god), and so no reason for me to be part of any organized religion. Thus, I'm an Atheist to world's organized religion. I deny the gods of the any holy book because all of them have a story of how things got to where they are now. It's just not within Islam, but within pretty much all the religions from the beginning of man.
The problem is however, these stories that are used to explain how things got here, goes greatly against what science finds to be true. So it's not based on rationality. You said Muslims believe in the creator of our natural world. Well, our natural world didn't come the way Islam explains it.- it wasn't "created". That's where we differ in points.
If you truly think saying "We worship the god that created nature" is acceptable, you also then must accept the same argument from Pagans, Christians, Hindus etc.
That's all. Maybe I just put it too simple for you that you don't get it. I see you like your endless phylosophy!
(no offense!
)
Sorry for not being as clear as I should have.
Be welcome to the site,once more.
Peace.
To be frank, I believe you think reality is just a bit too simple. Which would explain your simple post I suppose. You may not enjoy endless philosophy, but I think a crash course in philosophy would do your intelligence some justice. No offense
Thanks again for the welcome.
Peace
The Skeptic
Junior Member
The Skeptic
Junior Member
No I haven't seen the evolutionary process with my own eyes.
(I think I know where this is going...)
Quote: The problem is however, these stories that are used to explain how things got here, goes greatly against what science finds to be true. So it's not based on rationality. You said Muslims believe in the creator of our natural world. Well, our natural world didn't come the way Islam explains it.- it wasn't "created". That's where we differ in points.
:salam2:
Maybe you ought to look closely into your souces again.
*The universally accepted theory of 'the origin of the universe' is the BIG BANG THEORY. It maintains that at one time ALL OF HEAVENS AND THE EARTH were one piece.
*Living cells are made of water.
*The Expanding Heaven is proven.
"Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" (21:30)
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Quran might well go against some unestablished facts, but not against established (proven) scientific facts.
And we can continue on;
here's what the top scientist in the world says;
http://www.scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Actually it does matter how we look at things, and how we define things. For example, people around the world have personal definitions of god. This view vary from person to person.
Actually the scriptual definition is the same. That is why the first thing Jews and Christians are reminded is not to committ excess in their religion, not to say anything about God other than what the Prophets, pbuh told them.
Islam:
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him. (112:1-4)
Hinduism:
Svetasvatara - Upanishad (4:19):
Na tasya pratima asti " "There is no likeness of Him.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredsc...hads/sveta.asp
Khandogya - Upanishad (6:2:1):
"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah." "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredsc.../chandogya.asp
Svetasvatara - Upanishad (4:20):
"na tasya pratima asti "There is no image of Him."
"Those under the influence of their respective natures, with their wisdom consumed by various desires, worship other gods, observing specific rituals and religious rites. (Gita 7:20)
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/gita7.asp
Comparison with Islam:
'Ekam evadvitiyam'
He is one only without a second. (Chandoga Upanishad 6:2;1)
Say: He is Allah, the one an only, Quran (12:1)
"Na casya kascji janita na cadhipah"
Of Him there are neither parents nor lord (Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9)
He begetteh not, nor is he begotten (has no parents and children) (Quran 112:3)
"Na tasya pratima asti "
There us no likeness of Him (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19)
And there is none like unto him (Quran 112:4)
Zoroastrianism:
Attributes of God according to book of Dasatir;
1. He is one.
2. Nothing resembles Him.
3. He is wihout an origion or end.
4. He has no father, mother, wife or son.
5. Without a body or form
6. There is nothing like him.
7. He is above all you can imagine.
Judaism and Christanity: (Old and New Testament)
(Deut 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(Isaiah 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Isaiah 45: 5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.
(Isaiah 46:9) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5)
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, (Deut 7-9)
(Mark 12: 29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say man is a joke, this universe is a joke. That's where we differ.
:salam2:
Maybe you ought to look closely into your souces again.
*The universally accepted theory of 'the origin of the universe' is the BIG BANG THEORY. It maintains that at one time ALL OF HEAVENS AND THE EARTH were one piece.
*Living cells are made of water.
*The Expanding Heaven is proven.
"Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" (21:30)
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Quran might well go against some unestablished facts, but not against established (proven) scientific facts.
And we can continue on;
here's what the top scientist in the world says;
http://www.scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Actually it does matter how we look at things, and how we define things. For example, people around the world have personal definitions of god. This view vary from person to person.
Actually the scriptual definition is the same. That is why the first thing Jews and Christians are reminded is not to committ excess in their religion, not to say anything about God other than what the Prophets, pbuh told them.
Islam:
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him. (112:1-4)
Hinduism:
Svetasvatara - Upanishad (4:19):
Na tasya pratima asti " "There is no likeness of Him.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredsc...hads/sveta.asp
Khandogya - Upanishad (6:2:1):
"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah." "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredsc.../chandogya.asp
Svetasvatara - Upanishad (4:20):
"na tasya pratima asti "There is no image of Him."
"Those under the influence of their respective natures, with their wisdom consumed by various desires, worship other gods, observing specific rituals and religious rites. (Gita 7:20)
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/gita7.asp
Comparison with Islam:
'Ekam evadvitiyam'
He is one only without a second. (Chandoga Upanishad 6:2;1)
Say: He is Allah, the one an only, Quran (12:1)
"Na casya kascji janita na cadhipah"
Of Him there are neither parents nor lord (Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9)
He begetteh not, nor is he begotten (has no parents and children) (Quran 112:3)
"Na tasya pratima asti "
There us no likeness of Him (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19)
And there is none like unto him (Quran 112:4)
Zoroastrianism:
Attributes of God according to book of Dasatir;
1. He is one.
2. Nothing resembles Him.
3. He is wihout an origion or end.
4. He has no father, mother, wife or son.
5. Without a body or form
6. There is nothing like him.
7. He is above all you can imagine.
Judaism and Christanity: (Old and New Testament)
(Deut 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(Isaiah 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Isaiah 45: 5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.
(Isaiah 46:9) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5)
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, (Deut 7-9)
(Mark 12: 29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say man is a joke, this universe is a joke. That's where we differ.
ProudToBeaMuslim
Junior Member
:salam2:
I guess it time to close this thread. Muslim job is not to convert anyone, his job is to pass on the message. Which brothers and sisters here have done. There is no compulsion in religion.
To you your way and to us ours.
True, brother.
"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, Truth stands out clear from error. Whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things. "
2:256
a_stranger
Junior Member
Dear Skeptic; please ponder in the following verse :
18:29 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! Quran
Your creator (My creator) is showing us the Truth which is based on logic and reason so don`t turn your heart away from the one who is giving you life with all it`s bounties every moment .......This is a great lose .....WE are nothing without the mercy of the one who created us (Allah) .....please (I am writing to you out of love and care) give yourself a chance and open your heart and soul to the revealed Truth .
With best wishes.
18:29 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! Quran
Your creator (My creator) is showing us the Truth which is based on logic and reason so don`t turn your heart away from the one who is giving you life with all it`s bounties every moment .......This is a great lose .....WE are nothing without the mercy of the one who created us (Allah) .....please (I am writing to you out of love and care) give yourself a chance and open your heart and soul to the revealed Truth .
With best wishes.
diplomaticmuslim
Banned
i think this skeptic guy needs to take a step back and see all the modern political and economic problems caused due to lack of belief in God.
to say that religion is responsible for this is wrong. this was all caused by lack of belief in God
to say that religion is responsible for this is wrong. this was all caused by lack of belief in God
a_stranger
Junior Member
Faith in God (Allah) make hearts tender full of love , mercy, humility, modesty, ......makes hearts pure .......hearts that rejects evil and eager to do good.
Faith in God build a new better human.
~Ali_
Fixing da foundation
LOL I like your attitude. But remember, no one likes a know it all mate.
If you have not witnessed/or seen what you believe in.
Then you also have faith.
(Something which you have clearly been dissing in this thread)
The Skeptic
Junior Member
And that's pretty much why I said "I think I know where this is going."
Sure, you may call it what you want. If it helps you sleep better at night to think I have unjustified faith in anything, then by all means be my guest. You're not the first one who has actually twisted my ideas from this thread to desperately try and make it seem like I have a dogmatic belief.
But just for the record, I don't have faith in evolution. I actually knew you were going to mention faith right when you asked me to exclude the fossil records and the like. Well, if there was no evidence for it, I'd have no confidence in evolution, but since there is 150 years of strong evidence behind it, and not to mention the field of biology is dedicated to learning evolution, I'd be pretty facile to not believe in it.
~Ali_
Fixing da foundation
LOL and there you go.
BUT unlike an evolutionist, we don't claim we see/know the unseen (unseen, over here meaning the past), but we bring the proof, and we believe in the unseen.
Because bottom line mate, no one has witnessed evolution, but you claim to have "proof" of evoltuon here, here and here. Yes absolutely 100% that is how it came to be. Even though you were not there to witness it.
Now you know what Imaan is.
Amina 1
Junior Member
Hello Skeptic,
Welcome to TTI. I have not read this whole thread (you have a lot of replies) so I don't know if someone has already suggested it. But if you are really interested in the truth ask Allah to let you know. He is the only one who can guide you. Peace and may Allah show you the path 
You really should try asking Allah it won't hurt inshallah.
Welcome to TTI. I have not read this whole thread (you have a lot of replies
) so I don't know if someone has already suggested it. But if you are really interested in the truth ask Allah to let you know. He is the only one who can guide you. Peace and may Allah show you the path You really should try asking Allah it won't hurt inshallah.
The Skeptic
Junior Member
LMAO it's easy to try and win an arguments when you twist words isn't it Ali?
Fossil records, is a view of the past. Each plate of the earth's layer is a different era in Earth's history. So, each plate is like the page to Earth's autobiography. When you go back to the plates, and dig up fossils from the past, and keep digging until you reach our layer, you can witness evolution. Line up the fossil records from all the layers you went through, and you'll see the progression. So I have evidence that evolution is real. Furthermore, natural selection can also be witnessed under a microscope. Indeed, antibiotics are the results of knowing the mechanisms of evolution. You may deny evolution, but believe it or not, each time you get sick with the flu and you take flu shots or antibiotics, you are bringing the theory of evolution into practice-just in a smaller scale.
On the other hand, I've not seen any evidence for Allah's existence. All I got so far is a request to look at the world around me and correlate it with Allah.
Actually no, I never said I know for 100%. I think 99.9% is more accurate. I can never for 100% say anything is anything. As I said before, science is based on probability, not claim. You claim for 100% you know how the world got here, and will deny any other explanation-I don't. Thats the difference between you and I. If something is far more probable than something else, the more confidence I have. Thats all.
Imaan(faith)= A claim based on lack of evidence.
Sure I know what it is
The Skeptic
Junior Member
Hello Skeptic,
Welcome to TTI. I have not read this whole thread (you have a lot of replies
You really should try asking Allah it won't hurt inshallah.
Thank you very much for the welcome. I appreciate it
I've tried asking Allah. I've tried being spiritual both as a Muslim and a Christian. In the end however, I have a higher standard for belief than the faith based minds. I do admire the spiritual side of Islam though-just not the unjustifiable claims.
~Ali_
Fixing da foundation
Imaan(faith)= A claim based on lack of evidence.
Sure I know what it is
/facepalm
Now I finally know why Allah (swt) says "for those that understand" etc.
Peace brother.
To you, your Way and to me mine.
a_stranger
Junior Member
<<I've tried asking Allah. I've tried being spiritual both as a Muslim and a Christian. In the end however, I have a higher standard for belief than the faith based minds. I do admire the spiritual side of Islam though-just not the unjustifiable claims. >>
Sometimes when our hearts is sick full with doubts and vain desiers our calls never reach the heavens till we purify what is within.....Our creator is near to all of us ........ since we walk to him by hearts , our sins and wrongdoings block the way .......My advice try again but with pure heart .........Islam give us a very simple active dynamic way to purify hearts : It starts with La Ellah Ella Allah Muhammad rasool Allah then certain spritiual domains will be open by prayers and good deeds. Islam correct what is within our hearts (by knowing who is the creator) and bind them with heavens.
Sometimes when our hearts is sick full with doubts and vain desiers our calls never reach the heavens till we purify what is within.....Our creator is near to all of us ........ since we walk to him by hearts , our sins and wrongdoings block the way .......My advice try again but with pure heart .........Islam give us a very simple active dynamic way to purify hearts : It starts with La Ellah Ella Allah Muhammad rasool Allah then certain spritiual domains will be open by prayers and good deeds. Islam correct what is within our hearts (by knowing who is the creator) and bind them with heavens.
massi
Junior Member
Thank you very much for the welcome. I appreciate it
I've tried asking Allah. I've tried being spiritual both as a Muslim and a Christian. In the end however, I have a higher standard for belief than the faith based minds. I do admire the spiritual side of Islam though-just not the unjustifiable claims.
this is a challenge for you to prove the belief of Islam is based on lack of evidence.
ok let see the verses of the Quran
Surat el Mouyminune verse 12
[12] Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
[13] Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
[14] Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!
[15] After that, at length ye will die.
[16]Again, on the Day of Judgment, will ye be raised up.
Hear what the scientists are saying about the Quran
come on man show us what you've got !!!
