Serious Moral noble perfect world order:

Cariad

Junior Member
You say:

Jesus was a means of delivering the message and not to attach anything other than that to him. He was 'only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word'. It follows by saying he was like the other prophets before him. They had no divine significance other than being His Representatives and Jesus does not either.

This is not supported by the Bible or Qur'an. Only Yeshua was Messiah. Only Yeshua was Virgin born, there are many other attributes that set Him apart from all other prophets. You choose not to see them, I see them even in the Qur'an I see them.

From Bible perspective.. Yeshua never brought a message He was the message. Yeshua was not the mere fulfilment of Gods word He is Gods Word.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
You say:



This is not supported by the Bible or Qur'an. Only Yeshua was Messiah. Only Yeshua was Virgin born, there are many other attributes that set Him apart from all other prophets. You choose not to see them, I see them even in the Qur'an I see them.

From Bible perspective.. Yeshua never brought a message He was the message. Yeshua was not the mere fulfilment of Gods word He is Gods Word.

Adam and Eve were both created, not born and without parents; that is a greater attribute. There were many Jewish kings with the title of Messiah. It was not unique. Even Cyrus, a Non believer in the three major religions was crowned Messiah. As long as you believe a man was the message, your philosophy is different from ours. In Islam, everything is about Allah and His Messengers are His Ambassadors. If the Messenger is the Message then he is no longer the Messenger.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Thank you Sister Cariad. Since you have raised many points, I will attempt to answer some of them now and others I hope with Allah's Permission on later occasions.

In respect to the Qur'an saying Jesus is the servant of God, we all are and that does not make him more special than others as such. Second, when the Qur'an speaks of former scriptures, it is not referring to either the Bible or the Torah of today. In Islam Allah tells us those were revealed to Prophet Jesus and Prophet Moses directly and to no one else through the Angel Gabriel.

The Bible according to Christianity is not that scripture, because it was written over many years to different people including many Prophets. The New Testament also was written after Jesus ascended and hence was not revealed to any Prophets either. In that sense, when Muslims refer to former scriptures we are speaking about those that no longer exist. The present Torah and Bible in Islam contain aspects of the former scriptures, but also include non revelation so are not the same as that which was originally sent down to the said Prophets Moses and Jesus.

The original former scriptures spoke of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and gave glad tidings of his followers, so when he Qur'an speaks about confirming, it says to believe and affirm they attested to the Prophet and his coming. The Qur'an as the final scripture, also now takes primacy as the source of all guidance and revelation. Just as Christians believe the ministry and appearance of Jesus made the former mosaic law less important, Islam holds the same view about all those who claim to follow Jesus.

We are in full agreement with you that Jesus is flesh and blood among many other things. Where we differ with you is the ascription and designation given to him by yourselves. We accept him as human in every way. We attach all significance and importance to the One responsible for creating the message, you assign some of it to one of those who was sent. We disagree with the term and usage of 'Son of God' for anyone and that is our singular greatest doctrinal difference of opinion with yourselves.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Adam and Eve were both created, not born and without parents; that is a greater attribute. There were many Jewish kings with the title of Messiah. It was not unique. Even Cyrus, a Non believer in the three major religions was crowned Messiah. As long as you believe a man was the message, your philosophy is different from ours. In Islam, everything is about Allah and His Messengers are His Ambassadors. If the Messenger is the Message then he is no longer the Messenger.

Dear Friend, there is no greater attribute in how God chooses to create, except only in our own limited human logic. There is reason and purpose to every creation of God. This is explained in the Bible but I don't see the same detail in the Qur'an, I think that is why it's easy for you to think something like Adam and Eve having no human parents is somehow a greater attribute than having one human parent. Throughout History only three people were not born in the usual way... of two human parents.. Unless you know of others that I do not know of. But as the three in question are Adam, Eve and Yeshua let's look closer.

1. Adam Was Created Out of the Dust of the Ground, Had No Human Parents and Was Fully Grown From the Beginning:

When God created Adam (as the Qur’an also says) he…

“… formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” ~Genesis 2:7

God breathed life into the dust, and giving life to it, forming Adam out of the dust of the ground. So when God created Adam he had no human parents. Nor did he grow up in the normal way, but was a fully grown man from the moment he was created.

2. Eve Was Created Out of Adam and Was Fully Grown From the Beginning:

When he created Eve, he…

“… took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman’ for she was taken out of man” ~ Genesis 2:21-23.

Is this how God is shown to create Eve in the Qur'an or is it different?
Instead of creating Eve out of the dust like Adam, God made Eve out of Adam. Like Adam, she did not grow up, but was immediately a fully grown woman. Adam realized the intimate relationship he had with Eve when he said that she was “bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.” ..Eve was already in Adam and was taken out of him.. GOD’S PURPOSE IN CREATING EVE THIS WAY WAS TO MAKE ADAM AND EVE ONE FLESH, OUT OF WHICH ALL HUMAN BEINGS WOULD BE BORN. Since Adam and Eve were one flesh, all human life from that time on has come out of them. It is as if all humanity is one lump called "Adam," and slowly generation by generation we are all being born out of that lump. We are all bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. We were in Adam and Eve when they sinned and when they were put out of the garden. Today we are bearing the negative results of our original parents’ sin ...NOT THEIR ACTUAL SIN .. But in a way just like children today carry the genetic strengths and weaknesses of their parents, we have their sinful nature. Proof of this there is not one human on earth (except for Yeshua) that is without sin.

3. Yeshua Was Born Out of Mary Without a Human Father, and Grew up Normally:

Before Yeshua was born the angel told Mary she would have a son, and she replied -

How will this be, since I am a virgin? The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” ~ Luke 1:34-35

Yeshua the Messiah was not born out of the dust of the ground like Adam, nor was he created fully grown like Adam and Eve. He was born from a human mother after nine months of pregnancy and grew up in the normal way, but he had no human father.

SO WHAT WAS GOD’S PURPOSE IN THIS KIND OF BIRTH? The Bible tells us -

A. God caused Yeshua to be born of a woman in order to be human like us ‑ born OUT OF ADAM.

Through Mary, Yeshua is the son of Adam, fully a human being just like we are. Because he was born this way he is bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. The Scripture says he “shared in (our) humanity.” Yeshua is part of that lump of humanity just like we are. The Scripture says he became flesh. He became one of us! GOD’S PURPOSE IN YESHUA BEING BORN OF MARY WAS FOR HIM TO BE FULLY HUMAN:
Yet we see -

“Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.” ~ Hebrews 2:11 Why so?

He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” ~ Hebrews 2:17-18

B. At the same time God caused him to be born without a human father because he came OUT FROM GOD IN HEAVEN – the eternal Word of God made flesh ... as we see in John 1

“The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:47

“... the one who came from heaven .... The one who comes from above ...” ~John 3:13-31

“... He who comes down from heaven.” ~ John 6:33

“... For I have come down from heaven.” ~John 6:38

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven.” ~John 6:51

“... I am from above ... for I came from God.” ~John 8:23-42

In other words, being born of a human mother was needed for him to be one of us ... the Son of Adam. Being born without a human father was needed to show He came out from God ... the Son of God. In his parentage we see both his complete humanity and his full deity. Why? So He could be the perfect sinless substitute for us sinners, and overcome the power of sin and death to give us eternal life. I said before our difference in regards to theology comes down to the concept of Sin.

Yes, I agree that the title "Messiah" was given to others certainly in the Bible, it means "Anointed One" One who is chosen for leadership or service to God or priesthood or Kingship. However, throughout the Old Testament there are found a great many Messianic prophecies that promise THE Messiah, Of God who will deliver the people. We believe Yeshua fulfilled these prophecies sent by God through His hundreds of Biblical Prophets, indeed the Qur'an confirms Yeshua as the Messiah does it not? The Jews chose not to believe Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies and so reject Him as their Messiah, so they are still waiting.

Again, you are failing to see that the message, Gospel, Good news is not the "man" but is the WORD of God. Yeshua is the Living Gospel. I am not saying these things to attempt people to believe as I do, that would be wrong. Because all people are called to God in different ways. For me I have no powers :) I tell you such because I wish to try and make muslims see that Christians do follow What God revealed to them through Yeshua. The "Christianity" you believe we follow, the version you get from I don't know... Either Qur'an, Hadith or the deliberations of scholars does not exist outside of Islam. You castigate us for something we do not believe, and you unjustly refer to us as polytheists which is untrue and grossly insulting, but I know this insult is not meant and indeed is most times said without thought.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Thank you Sister Cariad. Since you have raised many points, I will attempt to answer some of them now and others I hope with Allah's Permission on later occasions.
My thanks returned to you also for your courteous replies, we may not agree but hopefully can reach a better understanding of our place in the world.

In respect to the Qur'an saying Jesus is the servant of God, we all are and that does not make him more special than others as such. Second, when the Qur'an speaks of former scriptures, it is not referring to either the Bible or the Torah of today. In Islam Allah tells us those were revealed to Prophet Jesus and Prophet Moses directly and to no one else through the Angel Gabriel.

Well, I see that Yeshua is special or (Unique if you prefer) both in Bible and Qur'an. Second, there is no proof of any other "former Scriptures) ever existed. It may say in the Qur'an that Angel Gabriel brought revelations to prophets but only Muhammed received a revelation through a messenger.. Angel Gabriel. Angels are Gods messengers in the Bible. Prophets received their revelations directly from God through, speech, dreams or visions. So, we must agree to disagree on this point.

The Bible according to Christianity is not that scripture, because it was written over many years to different people including many Prophets. The New Testament also was written after Jesus ascended and hence was not revealed to any Prophets either. In that sense, when Muslims refer to former scriptures we are speaking about those that no longer exist. The present Torah and Bible in Islam contain aspects of the former scriptures, but also include non revelation so are not the same as that which was originally sent down to the said Prophets Moses and Jesus.

Maybe you understand the term scripture differently to how Jews and Christians may see it. The Bible has a time frame of 1500 years unlike the Qur'an which is about 22 years I believe.. So of cause it's nature is different there is no scope for the progressive revelation such as the way the Bible was revealed in the one lifetime of the Qur'an. The Bible is not one book, but a collection of different books gathered together throughout the centuries as more was revealed. That they all show the same consistent theme throughout is proof of its divinity if such proof were needed.

The original former scriptures spoke of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and gave glad tidings of his followers, so when he Qur'an speaks about confirming, it says to believe and affirm they attested to the Prophet and his coming. The Qur'an as the final scripture, also now takes primacy as the source of all guidance and revelation. Just as Christians believe the ministry and appearance of Jesus made the former mosaic law less important, Islam holds the same view about all those who claim to follow Jesus.

We must disagree here I feel, as if there is no record of any former scriptures existing you cannot claim Muhammed was mentioned in them. Without proof it remains conjecture and opinion. Muhammed is not mentioned in any of the Bible Scripture which we have today, and is the same scripture in wide circulation centuries before the Birth of your prophet Muhammed. Apart from the God is one, Yeshua being Virgin born and the Messiah, I don't know what else the Qur'an confirms about the previous scriptures.

We are in full agreement with you that Jesus is flesh and blood among many other things. Where we differ with you is the ascription and designation given to him by yourselves. We accept him as human in every way. We attach all significance and importance to the One responsible for creating the message, you assign some of it to one of those who was sent. We disagree with the term and usage of 'Son of God' for anyone and that is our singular greatest doctrinal difference of opinion with yourselves.

There... We have a little agreement, maybe like the tiny acorn that grows the great Oak..it is not ourselves that give Yeshua the ascription and designation it comes from God, The Spirit, Yeshua and those who were closest to Him. Again it seems you confuse the humanity (Son of Man) with the divine Word (logos) of God. It's like you see the person of Yeshua as THE message or Word. The Bible teaches the Word (that is Yeahua) always existed, before it came to be in Yeshua, as it will always exist in eternity. I do not know how to explain.. Other than as Mary was the chosen vessel for Yeshua the Messiah, Yeshua is the chosen vessel for the Word. Maybe not the best analogy but I cannot think of any other.

Thank you for your continued replies it makes me think on things which is good for me. :)
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
Dear Friend, there is no greater attribute in how God chooses to create, except only in our own limited human logic. There is reason and purpose to every creation of God. This is explained in the Bible but I don't see the same detail in the Qur'an, I think that is why it's easy for you to think something like Adam and Eve having no human parents is somehow a greater attribute than having one human parent. Throughout History only three people were not born in the usual way... of two human parents.. Unless you know of others that I do not know of. But as the three in question are Adam, Eve and Yeshua let's look closer.

1. Adam Was Created Out of the Dust of the Ground, Had No Human Parents and Was Fully Grown From the Beginning:

When God created Adam (as the Qur’an also says) he…

“… formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” ~Genesis 2:7

God breathed life into the dust, and giving life to it, forming Adam out of the dust of the ground. So when God created Adam he had no human parents. Nor did he grow up in the normal way, but was a fully grown man from the moment he was created.

2. Eve Was Created Out of Adam and Was Fully Grown From the Beginning:

When he created Eve, he…

“… took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman’ for she was taken out of man” ~ Genesis 2:21-23.

Is this how God is shown to create Eve in the Qur'an or is it different?
Instead of creating Eve out of the dust like Adam, God made Eve out of Adam. Like Adam, she did not grow up, but was immediately a fully grown woman. Adam realized the intimate relationship he had with Eve when he said that she was “bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.” ..Eve was already in Adam and was taken out of him.. GOD’S PURPOSE IN CREATING EVE THIS WAY WAS TO MAKE ADAM AND EVE ONE FLESH, OUT OF WHICH ALL HUMAN BEINGS WOULD BE BORN. Since Adam and Eve were one flesh, all human life from that time on has come out of them. It is as if all humanity is one lump called "Adam," and slowly generation by generation we are all being born out of that lump. We are all bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. We were in Adam and Eve when they sinned and when they were put out of the garden. Today we are bearing the negative results of our original parents’ sin ...NOT THEIR ACTUAL SIN .. But in a way just like children today carry the genetic strengths and weaknesses of their parents, we have their sinful nature. Proof of this there is not one human on earth (except for Yeshua) that is without sin.

3. Yeshua Was Born Out of Mary Without a Human Father, and Grew up Normally:

Before Yeshua was born the angel told Mary she would have a son, and she replied -

How will this be, since I am a virgin? The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” ~ Luke 1:34-35

Yeshua the Messiah was not born out of the dust of the ground like Adam, nor was he created fully grown like Adam and Eve. He was born from a human mother after nine months of pregnancy and grew up in the normal way, but he had no human father.

SO WHAT WAS GOD’S PURPOSE IN THIS KIND OF BIRTH? The Bible tells us -

A. God caused Yeshua to be born of a woman in order to be human like us ‑ born OUT OF ADAM.

Through Mary, Yeshua is the son of Adam, fully a human being just like we are. Because he was born this way he is bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. The Scripture says he “shared in (our) humanity.” Yeshua is part of that lump of humanity just like we are. The Scripture says he became flesh. He became one of us! GOD’S PURPOSE IN YESHUA BEING BORN OF MARY WAS FOR HIM TO BE FULLY HUMAN:
Yet we see -

“Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.” ~ Hebrews 2:11 Why so?

He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” ~ Hebrews 2:17-18

B. At the same time God caused him to be born without a human father because he came OUT FROM GOD IN HEAVEN – the eternal Word of God made flesh ... as we see in John 1

“The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:47

“... the one who came from heaven .... The one who comes from above ...” ~John 3:13-31

“... He who comes down from heaven.” ~ John 6:33

“... For I have come down from heaven.” ~John 6:38

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven.” ~John 6:51

“... I am from above ... for I came from God.” ~John 8:23-42

In other words, being born of a human mother was needed for him to be one of us ... the Son of Adam. Being born without a human father was needed to show He came out from God ... the Son of God. In his parentage we see both his complete humanity and his full deity. Why? So He could be the perfect sinless substitute for us sinners, and overcome the power of sin and death to give us eternal life. I said before our difference in regards to theology comes down to the concept of Sin.

Yes, I agree that the title "Messiah" was given to others certainly in the Bible, it means "Anointed One" One who is chosen for leadership or service to God or priesthood or Kingship. However, throughout the Old Testament there are found a great many Messianic prophecies that promise THE Messiah, Of God who will deliver the people. We believe Yeshua fulfilled these prophecies sent by God through His hundreds of Biblical Prophets, indeed the Qur'an confirms Yeshua as the Messiah does it not? The Jews chose not to believe Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies and so reject Him as their Messiah, so they are still waiting.

Again, you are failing to see that the message, Gospel, Good news is not the "man" but is the WORD of God. Yeshua is the Living Gospel. I am not saying these things to attempt people to believe as I do, that would be wrong. Because all people are called to God in different ways. For me I have no powers :) I tell you such because I wish to try and make muslims see that Christians do follow What God revealed to them through Yeshua. The "Christianity" you believe we follow, the version you get from I don't know... Either Qur'an, Hadith or the deliberations of scholars does not exist outside of Islam. You castigate us for something we do not believe, and you unjustly refer to us as polytheists which is untrue and grossly insulting, but I know this insult is not meant and indeed is most times said without thought.

Dear Sister Cariad. Thank you for elaborating on the significance and special status of Jesus. May Allah reward you and bless you both in this world and in the hereafter. I will pray for your salvation and I hope you pray for me as well.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
My thanks returned to you also for your courteous replies, we may not agree but hopefully can reach a better understanding of our place in the world.



Well, I see that Yeshua is special or (Unique if you prefer) both in Bible and Qur'an. Second, there is no proof of any other "former Scriptures) ever existed. It may say in the Qur'an that Angel Gabriel brought revelations to prophets but only Muhammed received a revelation through a messenger.. Angel Gabriel. Angels are Gods messengers in the Bible. Prophets received their revelations directly from God through, speech, dreams or visions. So, we must agree to disagree on this point.



Maybe you understand the term scripture differently to how Jews and Christians may see it. The Bible has a time frame of 1500 years unlike the Qur'an which is about 22 years I believe.. So of cause it's nature is different there is no scope for the progressive revelation such as the way the Bible was revealed in the one lifetime of the Qur'an. The Bible is not one book, but a collection of different books gathered together throughout the centuries as more was revealed. That they all show the same consistent theme throughout is proof of its divinity if such proof were needed.



We must disagree here I feel, as if there is no record of any former scriptures existing you cannot claim Muhammed was mentioned in them. Without proof it remains conjecture and opinion. Muhammed is not mentioned in any of the Bible Scripture which we have today, and is the same scripture in wide circulation centuries before the Birth of your prophet Muhammed. Apart from the God is one, Yeshua being Virgin born and the Messiah, I don't know what else the Qur'an confirms about the previous scriptures.



There... We have a little agreement, maybe like the tiny acorn that grows the great Oak..it is not ourselves that give Yeshua the ascription and designation it comes from God, The Spirit, Yeshua and those who were closest to Him. Again it seems you confuse the humanity (Son of Man) with the divine Word (logos) of God. It's like you see the person of Yeshua as THE message or Word. The Bible teaches the Word (that is Yeahua) always existed, before it came to be in Yeshua, as it will always exist in eternity. I do not know how to explain.. Other than as Mary was the chosen vessel for Yeshua the Messiah, Yeshua is the chosen vessel for the Word. Maybe not the best analogy but I cannot think of any other.

Thank you for your continued replies it makes me think on things which is good for me. :)

We will not always agree, but that is to be expected, even among adherents of the same 'belief systems' [I have deliberately not used 'religion' as I recognise your differences with the term].

In both conversation, open and fair dialogue and discussion, it is important to remain focussed on respect, responsibility and moral rectitude. In this manner, both parties can enter and leave a forum of ideas and topical debate or theme with a mature outlook and better understanding of the other without initial or later prejudice and hostility.

Where major differences will continue to exist, the manner in which important information and responses can be imparted (without minimising or downplaying key facts) can be and often is as essential as the ideas presented themselves.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
I wi
Dear Sister Cariad. Thank you for elaborating on the significance and special status of Jesus. May Allah reward you and bless you both in this world and in the hereafter. I will pray for your salvation and I hope you pray for me as well.

l will surely pray for you, as I would pray for all people to come to know God and welcome Him into their lives. Salvation is only with God. I don't expect you will ever see Yeshua in the way I and other christians see Him, but I do hope in some small way I have allowed you to understand how we see Him and the relationship between God (Father) and God (Son).. It really has nothing to do with family relationships as we understand the them to be. Or even separate gods.

Peace and Gods blessings to you Abu Juwairiya.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
We will not always agree, but that is to be expected, even among adherents of the same 'belief systems' [I have deliberately not used 'religion' as I recognise your differences with the term].

In both conversation, open and fair dialogue and discussion, it is important to remain focussed on respect, responsibility and moral rectitude. In this manner, both parties can enter and leave a forum of ideas and topical debate or theme with a mature outlook and better understanding of the other without initial or later prejudice and hostility.

Where major differences will continue to exist, the manner in which important information and responses can be imparted (without minimising or downplaying key facts) can be and often is as essential as the ideas presented themselves.
I know I think I get carried away at times. I hope you do realise I never do wish to cause offence.
 

Abu Juwairiya

Junior Member
I wi


l will surely pray for you, as I would pray for all people to come to know God and welcome Him into their lives. Salvation is only with God. I don't expect you will ever see Yeshua in the way I and other christians see Him, but I do hope in some small way I have allowed you to understand how we see Him and the relationship between God (Father) and God (Son).. It really has nothing to do with family relationships as we understand the them to be. Or even separate gods.

Peace and Gods blessings to you Abu Juwairiya.

Peace and Blessings be upon you as well Sister Cariad. May Allah guide us all and assist us in our endeavours.
 
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