Question about 21:32

Discussion in 'Misconceptions About Islam' started by Peter_502, Jan 31, 2016.

  1. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    Seems this roof thing is quite abstract matter. I see it as roof (or ceiling) as it doesn´t change on which part of the earth you are standing. Sky is always above of us. We can go to other side of the earth and there too sky is above and we don´t stand there our heads down or think that sky is like the floor.

    Anyways, its meaning is to protect us. Also that Allah is the one who has created it like He has created the whole world, universe (and maybe more which we don´t know).

    The Arabic word there as "saqf" -
    سقف
    means roof, ceiling, roofing, overheads (I used google translate).

    What anything else this word might describe, you better looking for more specific explanation from someone else than me. I am just a simple sister without very much knowledge.

    :muslima:

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  2. Peter_502
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    Salaam alaikum, Sister Herb.

    What you are saying makes sense. The heaven/sky definitely does look like a roof and is above every person from where they are standing, regardless of whether they are in North America, China, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, etc... although if we could see from where we are standing through the earth all the way down to the other "side", I guess we would be able to see the sky below our feet... but we don't have X-Ray vision by the way, we aren't Superman. :).

    To a person looking up at the sky, it is a ceiling. To a person looking ahead of him or her, the earth is a flat pancake. We certainly don't look down under our feet and see a round ball lol. I guess it's all a matter of perception.

    Thanks for a good discussion. Take care and God bless you.
    • Alhamdulillah Alhamdulillah x 1
  3. Haimi
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    I will suggest you tafsir almizan for allame tabatai. Also read my posts again, i think you missed something about what i wrote.
  4. Haimi
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    Haimi Junior Member

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    What if i get a rounded umbrella? Anything's wrong with it? Falling stuff dies matter but hey remember the other meaning, don't limite the quran. It has alot of deeper treasures that only golden hearts can open them. Enshallah allah will pleasure us.
  5. Peter_502
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    Salaam alaikum, can you please provide a link to the tafsir,is there one in English?
    What part of what you wrote did I miss? I tried to summarize it on the previous page.
  6. Peter_502
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    There is definitely nothing wrong with a rounded umbrella, but it doesn't describe the shape of the heavens in relation to the earth. The earth is a sphere, not a plain surface. The heaven is not above it, but around it and surrounds it from all sides.

    Think of a fish in an aquarium. Is the water above it? Or is it all around it?

    [​IMG]

    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/mosquitofish-portrait-11567063.jpg


    13:2 states that God raised the heavens "with pillars that you cannot see". How were the heavens raised? Why? Above what?

    If you read tafsirs Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn and Ibn Qathir, they state that according to the Quran the heavens were raised above the earth. This makes complete sense for a flat earth, and especially to a person who would have been looking up at the sky from a desert. But when we consider the fact that the earth is a sphere and that the heavens (or the first one anyways) are everywhere around it, the verse makes less sense, at least in my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong and if I am may God show me inshAllah.

    13:2

    Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He rose above (Istawa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He has subjected the sun and the moon (to continue going round), each running (its course) for a term appointed. He manages and regulates all affairs; He explains the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, that you may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

    http://searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=13&translator=5#2


    Tafsir Ibn Qathir 13:2

    Allah mentions His perfect ability and infinite authority, since it is He Who has raised the heavens without pillars by His permission and order. He, by His leave, order and power, has elevated the heavens high above the earth, distant and far away from reach. The heaven nearest to the present world encompasses the earth from all directions, and is also high above it from every direction. The distance between the first heaven and the earth is five hundred years from every direction, and its thickness is also five hundred years. The second heaven surrounds the first heaven from every direction, encompassing everything that the latter carries, with a thickness also of five hundred years and a distance between them of five hundred years. The same is also true about the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth and the seventh heavens. Allah said,
    (It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof.) ﴿65:12﴾ Allah said next,
    ﴿بِغَيْرِ عَمَدٍ تَرَوْنَهَا﴾
    (..without any pillars that you can see.) meaning, `there are pillars, but you cannot see them,' according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, and several other scholars. Iyas bin Mu`awiyah said, "The heaven is like a dome over the earth,'' meaning, without pillars. Similar was reported from Qatadah, and this meaning is better for this part of the Ayah, especially since Allah said in another Ayah,
    ﴿وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَآءَ أَن تَقَعَ عَلَى الاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ﴾
    (He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His permission. )﴿22:65﴾ Therefore, Allah's statement,
    ﴿تَرَوْنَهَا﴾
    (..that you can see), affirms that there are no pillars. Rather, the heaven is elevated (above the earth) without pillars, as you see. This meaning best affirms Allah's ability and power.


    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2321&Itemid=68

    Tafsir Al Jalalayn 13:2

    God is He Who raised up the heavens without visible supports (‘amad is the plural of ‘imād, which is [the same as] an ustuwāna, ‘a column’; and this [statement] is true, since there are no actual supports) then presided upon the Throne, a presiding befitting Him, and disposed, made subservient, the sun and the moon, each one, of them, moving, along its course, until [the conclusion of] an appointed time, that is, [until] the Day of Resurrection. He directs the command, He conducts the affairs of His Kingdom. He details, He expounds, the signs, the indications of His power, so that you, O people of Mecca, might be certain of the encounter with your Lord, through resurrection.
    http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...hNo=2&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


    Tafsir Ibn Abbas 13:2

    (Allah it is who raised up the heavens) He created the heavens and raised them up above the earth (without visible supports) He says: you see them without support; it is also said that this means: they have supports which you do not see, (then mounted the Throne) Allah was on the Throne before He raised up the heavens; it is also said that this means: He established Himself on the Throne; and it is also said that this means: as far as His knowledge and power are concerned, that which is near and that which is far are all equal to Him, (and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service) He made the light emanating from the sun and the moon of service to the Children of Adam, (each runneth unto an appointed term) to a fixed time; (He ordereth the course) He looks into the affairs of the servants and He sends the angels with revelation, Scripture and misfortune; (He detaileth the revelations) He explains the Qur'an by expositing the commands and prohibitions, (that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord) that you may believe in resurrection after death.
    http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...hNo=2&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
  7. Haimi
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    Well ofc but i mean when we want to dig into it, tbh lemme tell you, its really hard man. As quran said the galaxies and spaces subjects are much harder to understand than earth and its contect objects.
    Think about our buddy, eyes even sea and oceans. These are most unknown objects on the planet. Then think again about galaxies skies heaven and objects that we can not see/ watch them with our eyes. Sometimes we need an armed eye to see something and sometimes our mortal eyes arent enought.
    Do you belive in an another eye?
  8. Haimi
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    I suggest you the Tafsir almizan, the best one in my opinion. Idk if theres any English copy of it or not.
    Lemme search for you.
  9. Haimi
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    Whos المومنون؟ belivers? Are they muslim? Or not? If they are muslim then whats the difference? Even belivers are they different? Is there any rank and level for them? Why quran said his messenger not all messengers? So other messengers can be a part of belivers? Or maybe its because of muhammad sawaw position?
    What kind of eyes and view those belivers has? How come that humans making new stuff like xray to see invisible objects but humans themself arent able to watch invisible stuff?
    At this time when I'm writing this to my dear brother Peter, is there anyone who can see me? A beliver? What else he can see then? What kind of power and ability he/she/they has? Where is it coming from?
    Is there any supernatural power? If the answer is YES so ...are they busy sometimes on observing galaxies?
    This is what i was talking about, about invisible protection for earth. Invisible shooting stars.
    المومنون
    وَقُلِ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَسَتُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
    And say[ O, Messenger! ]:" Act As much as you can; soon Allah will Observe your deeds and so will His Messenger and the believers; and you Will be brought back to the Knower of The Unseen and the Visible; then Allah Will inform you of what you used to do."(105)

    Create an another topic about this stuff so we can talk there about it if you're interested in.
    Regard, Your little brother-Hamid
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  10. Peter_502
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    Salaam alaikum, and thank you for your responses. Please forgive me for not replying sooner. I will try to address all three of your posts.

    In your first post, you mentioned galaxies. Do you believe that the galaxies have been raised? If so, what have they been raised above?

    And why would God say without pillars "you can see"? From the tafsirs it sounds like this was a reference to the sky that people see when they look up, which is described as "a roof" in the previous verse we were discussing on this thread.


    I will see if I can find an English or Polish translation of Tafsir almizan online.

    I am not sure if I understand the point you are making in your third post, what does the sky that has been raised without pillars have to do with invisible shooting stars? Please clarify what you meant. Thanks so much!
  11. Peter_502
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    Also, 78:12 states that above people, God built the seven strong. When one looks at the content of the ayah and especially if you read the Ibn Abbas, Ibn Qathir and Al Jalalayn tafsirs, it becomes clear this is a reference to the seven heavens.

    Yet the first heaven has not been built over us, but around us. We live not on a flat earth, but a sphere.

    What do you make of this verse?

    78:12
    FacebookTwitter
    ﭻﭼﭽﭾﭿ
    DR. GHALI
    And We have built above you seven strong (heavens),
    MUHSIN KHAN
    And We have built above you seven strong (heavens),
    PICKTHALL
    And We have built above you seven strong (heavens),
    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
    And constructed above you seven strong [heavens]
    SHAKIR
    And We made above you seven strong ones,
    YUSUF ALI
    And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments,
    TRANSLITERATION
    Wabanayna fawqakum sabAAan shidada

    http://quran.com/78/12

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