Rapists have visitation right in 31 states

Discussion in 'New and Current Affairs' started by Hajjerr, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. tic_tac_toe
    Offline

    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +21 / 3
    I have and can't see where she is proposing to be lenient with rapists, she is fairly adamant that Zina is consensual while rape is "inflicted" therefore they can't be the same.

    But anyways...
  2. azad.ahmed
    Offline

    azad.ahmed Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +0 / 0
    ...............
  3. Aisya al-Humaira
    Thinking
    Offline

    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +116 / 0
    ^^ Sorry to say, brother but the two links that you shared are both doubtful and questionable after checking its other contents and site.
  4. Abu-Talha
    Offline

    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Europa
    Home page:
    Ratings Received:
    +8 / 0
    One question aapa

    If a child is born from rape, the female was raped once and she got pregnant after that, to who the child belongs, does it belongs to both parents, or to who?

    Olso if muslimah women is raped from nonmuslim, and she ets pregnant from that and has child, to who the child belongs, according to islamic rulings?

    Post source from Quran and sunnah for any asnwer, the answer like-in the books of fikh etc, its not valid, post the name of book and the page, or the schoolar who said it etc, answer should be only from islamic source for this

    just one answer about this issue, so that we can be just what we are talking about



    Fatwa no. 119

    Q: It has been proven that someone called Sayyah raped a woman called `Abdah who became pregnant and gave birth to a boy called Sa`d. Someone called Salih wished to adopt the boy and the mother agreed. The judge of Yanbu` gave his consent. His Excellency, the Judge of Yanbu` said that the boy's second name should be `Abdullah. We wish you would issue a Fatwa (legal opinion issued by a qualified Muslim scholar) in this regard to be a general rule adopted in similar cases.

    A: Since this boy is an illegitimate child, he cannot be attributed to the fornicator, for the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The boy is attributed to the bed (on whose bed he is born), and for a fornicator there is stoning." (Related by Ahl-ul-Sunan (authors of Hadith compilations classified by jurisprudential themes) and others)
    (Part No. 16; Page No. 16)

    It is also not permissible to attribute the son to the foster parent, so as to avoid mixing the lineage with his foster brothers. The son is to take his mother's tribal name, for he is attributed to his mother as mentioned in the previous Hadith. Using the name `Abdullah as the son's father is permissible. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The names that are dearest to Allah are `Abdullah and `Abdul-Rahman." (Related by Muslim on the authority of `Abdullah ibn `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with them both). May Allah grant us success. May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions.

    The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta'
  5. Aapa
    Offline

    Aapa Mirajmom

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,991
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +150 / 12
    Assalaam alaikum,

    Let's sum up a little.

    The OP posted an article on US laws without realizing that these laws are not from criminal courts but out of social services. Of the small percentage of rapes reported less than 25% of the women keep the child conceived of the assault. Less than 5% raise the child themselves. Most give the child up for adoption. If they try to get child support than by the existing laws the father has a right to custody or visitation as he is helping her financially support the child.

    The thread than took a turn to Islam and its rulings on rape. The Arabic word zina simply means illegal sexual intercourse. I questioned how rape and fornication could be placed under the same umbrella when the punishments are very different. The do not fall under the same category.

    When reviewing the hadith on rape I discovered that there is no need for witnesses. The word of the victim is taken. The punishment for rape falls into a different category. It is not zina. Rape is a hiraba. The four scholars have agreed upon this. It is an assault on another human being. The victim at times could not identify the assailant and was not held responisble. The greatest scholars of Islam protected women hence, the woman was given restitution. Rape is a crime against society. It transgresses morality and makes the community unsafe.

    Zina is not hiraba. It is not taking the property of another. It requires the witness. It is secret unless the parties admit their guilt.

    As for the child born of rape. Does our faith not tell us to take care of the orphan? Why not man up and raise a child in the right way? Why not love an innocent for simply the Love and Fear of Allah.

    As for those who are contemplating reverting to Islam, there are always logical answers to all questions posed. It requires a little effort.

    There are issues related to rape that can not be addressed on the forum. These issues revolve around helping the victim to heal. The long term consequences of rape require kid gloves and gentleness.
  6. Abu-Talha
    Offline

    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Europa
    Home page:
    Ratings Received:
    +8 / 0
    where does hadith says that, according to you one women can come and say i was raped, but she lies, so people should believe her word without asking the person that is accused ?

    nobody didnt say that rape is zinah, rape is zinah with force, the man makes zinah with force

    can you qoute any of the words of 4 imams about this ?


    nobody dosnt say its hiraba, rape has both of them for the raper, he does zinah with hiraba

    yes orfan, yes, but taking as child the one wich dosnt belong to the person !?

    you didnt answer to the question to who belongs in islam, in islam we dont live by lies, we dont attribute a child to somebody that dosnt belong to him, its a hadith that say the person wich lies about his family origin, makes a big sin

    khayr inshaAllah, may Allah guide us all
  7. tic_tac_toe
    Offline

    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +21 / 3
    :salam2:

    If a woman accuses someone of rape then the state will investigate and based on circumstantial evidence the guilty will be punished (Tazeer ) and there is no problem with that. No need for four (4) witnesses as four (4) witnesses are only required for Hadd.

    I have now tried to say this 3 times in different ways and perhaps I am failing to make myself clear. I have always explained that zina and rape have different terminologies in Arabic.

    I have also tried to explain from first response to this subject that in Islam there are two separate kinds of punishment i.e. Hadd (requiring four witnesses) and Ta'zeer (not requiring four witnesses) and also stated that Ta'zeer doesn't mean a light slap on the wrist or getting off lightly!

    If you can bring some Authentic Hadeeth or evidence that a single woman accused someone and Hadd was implemented in a case of Zina or Rape without four (4) witnesses then we would all be extremely grateful to you, :inshallah:

    :wasalam:
  8. Aapa
    Offline

    Aapa Mirajmom

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,991
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +150 / 12
    Assalaam alaikum,

    The Prophet, swas, believed the woman. Bukhari.
  9. tic_tac_toe
    Offline

    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +21 / 3
    :wasalam:

    A woman accused someone of rape and Prophet Muhammad :saw: believed her testimony and without four (4) witnesses gave the penalty of Hadd and this is in Saheeh Bukhari?

    Please produce this Hadeeth as I am not a Scholar and not come across it.

    :jazaak:
  10. Aapa
    Offline

    Aapa Mirajmom

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,991
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +150 / 12
    Assalaam alaikum,

    Brother,

    If you take the time to read Imam Malik decisions have been accepted by most in Islam. Iman Ali's decisions provided protection to women. Iman Hazan has views that are consistent with the body of jurisprudence.

    And once again I reiterate my point. The body of evidence in Islam suggests that rape comes under the umbrella of robbery. ( To the point of intention).
    That is the only point I wish to make. That the intelligence of Islam protects victims of rape. Rape is more so a public crime.

    Please take the time to read these scholars. They make perfect sense and protect women.
  11. Aisya al-Humaira
    Thinking
    Offline

    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +116 / 0
    Wa`alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    Appa, it would be very helpful to many of us if you can just copy and paste those rulings/fatwas that you found and present it here as I have never found about Imam Hazan (?).

    And I've recently read the statement of one student of knowledge that even when fatwa is being presented to us, we may differ in our understandings on how the ruling is and it pretty much depends on the level of knowledge one has.

    Therefore, it's best to present the original daleel here, inshaa Allaah.

    P.S: Hope you are well, Appa.

    :wasalam:
  12. Aapa
    Offline

    Aapa Mirajmom

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,991
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +150 / 12
    Assalaam alaikum,

    Sister,

    Thank you. I am well, Please keep me in your dua.

    My problem is that I am what one calls old school. It was driven into me that doing research means you have to keep going on and on until you come to the original source. When I post I try to seek more information on the given topic. I do not like to write empty words. I will, InshaAllah , start keeping records of what I have done. I also speak to those with knowledge. I will spend an hour to find the exact definition of a word.

    And our source in Islam is the Quran and Sunnah. All decisions are based upon that; as they should be. Islam is benevolent. And Islam gives us the opportunity to forgive each other.
  13. ShahnazZ
    Offline

    ShahnazZ Striving2BeAStranger

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    43
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    New York City a.k.a. The Devil's Playground
    Ratings Received:
    +72 / 0
    Not sure, but she could possibly be talking about Ibn Hazm.
  14. tic_tac_toe
    Offline

    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +21 / 3
    I had already checked and summarized the quotation of Imam Malik (RA) but here is the exact text:

    قال الإمام مالك رحمه الله :

    " الأمر عندنا في الرجل يغتصب المرأة بكراً كانت أو ثيبا : أنها إن كانت حرة : فعليه صداق مثلها , وإن كانت أمَة : فعليه ما نقص من ثمنها ، والعقوبة في ذلك على المغتصب ، ولا عقوبة على المغتصبة في ذلك كله " انتهى .

    " الموطأ " ( 2 / 734 ) .

    Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a �dowry� like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. End quote.

    Al-Muwatta�, 2/734

    I respectfully ask you the same question as I am not entirely clear about this Hadeeth being in Saheeh Bukhari because I am now reasonably sure that you are mixed up because you are quoting the work of Uzma Mazhar.


    If you don't wish to clarify your responses and discuss yours sources that's fine as we are family :inshallah: and I will produce the original text and Uzma Mazhar's error for everyone else to grasp whenever I am free.

    Requesting your duas and best wishes.

    :jazaak:
  15. azad.ahmed
    Offline

    azad.ahmed Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2011
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +0 / 0
    Sunan Abu Dawud , prescribed punishment :38 , no. 4366

    Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her. He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death. He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.




    I've just read this, but i didn't find an explanation for this and sister is right the word of single woman is taken as truth but in case of zina not rape .. I mean in case of an unmarried woman who is found to be pregnant, and who claims that she had been raped but cannot name her assailant and if there was no way to verify the woman’s claim then it would be better to release her .
  16. tic_tac_toe
    Offline

    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +21 / 3
    :salam2:

    Sister has stated that the Hadeeth is in Saheeh Bukhari so I have been requesting for her to point it out as my knowledge is limited in the area of Hadeeth.

    If Sister is unable to produce it or has perhaps has made an error in claiming that its in Saheeh Bukhari then we will move forwards and address the Hadeeth in Tirmidhi & Abi Da'wud which to the best of my limited knowledge she is getting her information from.

    Can't comment further unless and until Sister reveals her source about Saheeh Bukhari .

    :jazaak:

Share This Page