Rapists have visitation right in 31 states

Discussion in 'New and Current Affairs' started by Hajjerr, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Brother,

    I asked you to educate me as you clearly stated I was playing scholar.

    Rape is one person attacking a person, taking from a person, brutalizing a person, harming the body of another being sexually. There is no intimacy in rape. There is a victim and a perpetrator. Rape is not a sexual relief. The object of rape is more than sexual gratification.

    Zina does not attack, take or brutalize another person. It is the act of two or more who take delight in the physical act. They agree that they wish to partake in the act of love making. There is intimacy in zina. There are no victims. There are no victims in adultery. There may be seduction. Zina is fornication. You play. You have fun outside of marriage.

    I believe there is misunderstanding on the definition of rape and zina. I am not sure if there is a language barrier or cultural barrier. And rape is not limited to males. Females can rape, as well.

    This threat of this is the last time I will ask you is rude. It must be cultural. Islam treats women with respect. And it is not befitting a Believer.
  2. Abu-Talha
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    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

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    we ask apology for any word wich was not proper word

    again you brought your logic, no proof from Quran and sunah, islam ruling are not from our logic, we have sources for any claim, as for the meaning of the word, scholars know that very good and i brought you words from big scholars that there is ijma (consesus) about rape issue, same rules are apply as in zinah, 4 witnes, punishment etc

    so my advice is, please dont take a burden on yourself speaking about rulings in islam, dont say in islam is like this and like that-and you dont bring any proof from Quran and sunah about that, this is talking about deen of Allah without knowledge, and this sin is more biger then zinah, then drinking alcohol, then usury (interest) etc

    in one verse in Quran the sin of talking about deen of Allah without knowledge it is mention in one aya before shirk, then shirk is mention, scholars said that this show how big sin is talking about deen of Allah without knowledge

    may Allah guide us all and forgive us
  3. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Brother,

    Please provide your proof that the victim of rape needs to provide four witnesses. The burden of proof for rape is not the same as zina. They are under two different categories. The rules are not the same. As you insist they are please provide the evidence. Even the number of lashings are different.
  4. Abu-Talha
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    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

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    again you speak with your logic, you didnt bring not a single proof from Quran and sunah, or from scholars about your claims, i brought them and i will bring them again, read them

    http://islamqa.info/en/ref/158282/rape

    http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

    http://islamqa.info/en/ref/41682 .......................Ibn al-‘Arabi said, telling of the time when he was a judge: Some bandits were brought before me who had gone out to attack a group of travellers. They took a woman by force from her husband and the group of Muslims who were with him, and carried her off. Then they were hunted down, caught and brought to me. I asked one of the muftis with whom Allaah tested me about them and he said that they were not muhaaribeen, because haraabah (the crime of waging war against Allaah and His Messenger) applies only with regard to wealth, not rape! I said to them: To Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return (said by Muslims at times of calamity). Do you not know that haraabah (aggression) against honour is worse than aggression against wealth? All people would agree to lose their wealth and have it confiscated from them rather than to see aggression committed against their wives or daughters. If there were any punishment more severe than that which Allaah has mentioned, it would be for those who kidnap women. end quote.


    p.s. this should be my last post here, inshaAllah
  5. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    In Islamic penal system there are two kinds of punishment which are Hadd (explicitly mentioned punishments in Qur’aan & Sunnah) & Ta’zeer (disciplinary punishment) respectively and with regards to heinous nature of the crime, the punishment (for the perpetrator) and similarity rape does fall under the umbrella of Zina.

    However, there are also distinct differences e.g. if the woman is forcefully abducted (in addition o being raped) then the crime gets more severe (colloquially speaking) to terrorism and the evidence requirements are reduced from those of zina (4 witnesses) to those of forceful abduction (2 witnesses) and punishment is different.

    There is a chance that a person can be charged with rape and abduction both.

    Lastly, the requirement for Hadd (explicitly mentioned punishments in Qur’aan & Sunnah) for rape is the same for Zina i.e. four witnesses but circumstantial evidence e.g. DNA, fingerprinting and medical tests are taken into account and if the perpetrator is found guilty then Ta’zeer (disciplinary punishment) is passed which can be as severe or less or the same depending on the severity of the crime.

    So the perpetrator will not walk and the classification of rape as Zina or the availability (or lack thereof) four witnesses is of Academic nature because circumstantial evidence will convict the perpetrator and punishment will be appropriately awarded, the four witness requirement is only for Hadd (explicitly mentioned punishments in Qur’aan & Sunnah) and there is a common misconception that in the absence of four witness the perpetrator of a heinous crime like rape walks! Death penalty, imprisonment, lashing and other forms of punishment can still be awarded under Ta’zeer (disciplinary punishment).

    Complete discussion can be read here

    :wasalam:
  6. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    So there is no distinction between consent and rape in Islam? Why the difference in punishments? Why have two words.

    Forget the DNA for a minute. What is the hadith that says the punishment is the same?

    The nature of zina is a willful act. The person participating in illegal sexual intercourse is cognizant and has given consent. There is no perpetrator.
    The nature of rape is the forceful penetration of a person on an unwillingly innocent victim. There is not victim in zina.

    If there are witnesses to rape they are equally guilty.

    The discussion was incomplete. What scholars have defined rape as zina and why? Is it a matter of the best of two evils? A woman who participates in zina is not raped. A woman who is raped has not committed zina.

    Do you see the distinction I am trying to understand? I am not discussing abduction. I am trying to understand why rape is considered zina when there are different punishments. For starters there is no restitution in zina.
  7. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    The mode of worship in Islam is called as Salah but then there are different types e.g. five daily Salah and Salah of Janazah and as you well know their method and implementation is different.

    Sexual crimes outside of marriage in Islam are generally classed as Zina but its manifestation, punishment is different etc because primarily there is the matter of consent between adultery and rape so you can’t obviously award Hadd to the one who is raped.

    Where Zina and Rape is similar is in the implementation of Hadd to the perpetrator and its classification as a sexual crime.

    Where Zina and Rape are different is when the minimum evidence for Hadd (i.e. 4 witnesses) is not found and a Tazeer has to be awarded and the two are different. In addition, the classification of the other party is different i.e. in case of Zina its consensual while in the case of Rape its forced and brutal.
  8. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Asalaam alikum,

    Brother,

    You are using the words generally. I am asking for specific differeniations. I am asking for the exact difference. There is no perpetrator in zina. There is in rape. Nothing is taken from the consenting partner in zina. They are gaining sexual pleasure and the end result which is orgasm. The victim of rape does has not given permission to be assulted, to say the least.

    Yes, one is an act of sex. It's object is the pleasure of participating parties. One is act of violence with sex as the tool. An adulterer can hide the crime unless there are four witnesses. Where does it say that a victim of the rapist has to produce four witnesses?

    Zina is not a crime against another being. That is the reason it does not fall under the category of robbery. Nothing is being taken. That is why there is no restitution. How can you award money to someone who has indulged in what they take pleasure in. Zina is a choice.

    Rape is not a choice.
  9. Hajjerr
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    Hajjerr He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram

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    ..........
  10. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    Completely understand your point of view of being precise and also understand that from a common sense point of view that Zina and Rape are not the same.

    However, you also need to understand what the Ulamah are saying and done i.e. categorised it in the general umbrella of “crimes of sexual perversion” i.e. Zina and I gave you an example about prayers in Islam. I am sure that you have prayed Fajar Salah and Janazah Salah and would agree that they are not the same and yet they are both categorised as “Prayers” but when it comes to the details and execution then off course Fajar Salah and Janazah Salah are not the same.

    So Rape is Zina in general and categorisation but when it comes to implementation and execution (of punishment) it’s off course not the same because the perpetrator used violence and coercion and victim was coerced.

    What you are also failing to see is that the requirements of (four witnesses) is to implement “Hadd” but in the absence the perpetrator doesn’t walk free! DNA evidence, finger prints, medical tests are all valid and acceptable in Islamic Shariah and the guilty will be punished based on them and its not the responsibility of the victim to provide evidence rather its the job of the Islamic state to investigate, gather evidence, scrutinise and bring the perpetrator to justice and then punish with Hadd (if four witnesses are found) or through Ta’zeer.

    Lastly, Ta’zeer through circumstantial evidence doesn’t mean that it’s a slap on the wrist and light punishment. I honestly believe that you are misunderstanding the implementation and penalty of such a heinous and despicable crime in Islam simply because it falls under the general umbrella of Zina.

    :wasalam:
  11. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Please provide proof, uncategorically, that rape is the same as zina. You have not provided evidence that rape is treated the same way as zina. As it clearly is not. For starters there is no guilt on the victim of rape. Think of Umar. There is guilt on those who commit zina. How can a victim of rape sin?


    As for your analogy of prayers. Poor analogy. There are no victims when one prays.

    Many readers think I am debating. And I am not. However, when you make statements be ready with accuracy to defend your statements. We are in the process of learning. Rape is a vicious crime against society and the individual. Zina, illegal sexual intercourse, is specific. It is not against anyone but your soul. Different world.
  12. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    Wa`alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    Appa, scholars verdict that is extracted based on the evidences and their ijtihaad has already been presented several times on this thread. May I ask you honestly, do you reject it?

    Brother TTT is actually sharing the explanation behind the rulings. Matters of punishment that is not stated in the Qur`an, then it is up to the rulers to decide on it [ta`zeer].

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showpost.php?p=30541&postcount=6

    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/...idawah-database-responses-1908/page2#post8273
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Abu-Talha
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    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

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    1.two man kill each other fighting, both are counted as killer, its in hadith, becasue they whanted to kill each other, their intention was not to protect themself, but to kill each other

    2.man kills a women without her will, man is the killer-agresor, women is victim

    in both cases they are killers, but in second case we have one killer and one victim, the killer is agresor and killer, in first case they did with free will, both of them

    Definition of rape in English:

    -The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse

    Definition in legislativ way of west for rape:

    (Law) the offence of forcing a person, esp a woman, to submit to sexual intercourse against that person's will


    so there is sexual intercourse in there, one is pleasing himself with that sexual intercourse, and pleasing yourself in intimate relation with other women outside marriage-its zinah, even if it is done with force, its zinah for the person that does that, olso for him is agresion to, he made agresion and zinah in same time

    That is why sexual intercourse throught force with women that is not his wife, its called rape, becasue agresion is there-that is the meaning of word rape, there is intimate relation for the man with force into women

    for the victim is not zinah, she is forced to do that, no sin for the victim

    its not a shame do admit the truth when we see it, we make mistake and we need to accept the truth when we see clear proofs


    as for bringing aya and hadith, we dont have aya and hadith for drog either, but throught analogy its very clear that drug comes under the same category as alcohol, but they have different names, but they come under category of the word Intoxicants

    Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every intoxicant is khamr, and every intoxicant is haraam. Whoever drinks khamr in this world and dies persisting in that and without having repented, will not drink it in the Hereafter.” Narrated by Muslim, 2003.

    debating just for the sake of debate, dosnt bring no benefit, i think i am done in this post here, sory to others that read this thread if we bored you
  14. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    You are not convincing.

    And the drug argument is not valid.

    Two men who kill are not counted as killers necessarily. Please think about the case of the one who kills in a just manner.

    There is no aggression in zina.

    Sister,

    I am not rejecting anything. If I were a person contemplating to revert to Islam I would need decisive definitions. If the rulers of Islam are men who have little regard for women they are unfair. Sister, why don't you dig up the differences in the punishments for zina and rape. They are different. If the punishment is different than the core of the sin is different. Or they would not be in two different categories. The fact that rape is under the same umbrella as robbery determines that it is a crime against a person. Zina is not robbery. It is not a crime against another.

    Rape by definition is not limited to the sexual act. It is an act of violence. Zina is not violent, unless the parties are into S&M etc. but the choice is to seek sexual pleasure for BOTH parties using violence. Rape is the act of an individual against another being; the victim has no choice.

    But, I am through.

    As for those that are throwing shame on me. How can I feel shame when I want objective authoritative answers to the questions I have posed. How is rape illegal sexual intercourse in the same context as zina. That is apples and oranges. They are both fruit. The context of rape is not the same as zina.
  15. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Seeking Allah's Mercy Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!

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    Sobhan`Allah ukht, I gotta hand it to you. Your search methods are far better than mine. JazaakAllaahu khayraa.

    However, it is my personal view that there needs to be a more detailed paper on this, or a fatwa etc. There are certain "unanswered bits", I'm hoping I'll get answers to soon (Don't worry, you'll be getting a peak in lol!). Some narrations or should I say one, seem to convey a different message. Now of course, me being a layman will refrain from voicing my opinion but I think this needs a more serious address to it.

    Brother, BaraakAllaahu feek for your answers. I can see you've been trying your best but this is all you can do. My advice to you is, leave it to this to be on the safe side.

    By that I mean, if I'm not mistaken, you are a layman. The least you can do is share a scholar's opinion or share an ayah or a hadeeth that a shaykh used in this context together with quoting it's source. After this, you are under no obligation to answer anything since you are not a scholar. Fiqh is not an easy subject, classical `arabic is not easy to interpret. Don't engage yourself in something that you'll regret later.

    Forgive me if I've said something untrue. If you have sat with scholars and learned at their feet, carry on.
  16. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    You are our Sister and we are family so we can neither make our Sister feel bad or shameful. If we are not agreeing then the fault is in my way of explaining and not in my Sister’s intellect or grasp of the truth so let’s be clear about that.

    This is a public form and the point of it is to have an open and candid discussion and not to shoot people down so Insha’Allah I hope that you will reconsider your decision and continue to enlighten your brother and discuss further.

    I was hoping that you would have read Fatawa which I originally quoted and everything around it but in any case here is my understanding from it.

    All crimes of sexual perversion in Islam outside of legitimate marital contact are classed as “Zina” but then they are sub classified (pertinent to our discussion) and linguistically defined as follows:

    “Normal” Zina: Pardon the word normal but this is consensual

    Zina Bil-Jab’r (Jareematul-Ightisaab): Coerced and forced sexual encounter i.e. RAPE

    The similarities in punishments are firstly that the offender(s) are punished via Hadd which requires four (4) witnesses and that the prosecution, secondly collection of evidence, processing and due legal process is the responsibility of the Islamic state and thirdly In the absence of minimum evidence for Hadd (i.e. four witnesses etc) Tazeer is awarded based on circumstantial evidence.

    The differences in punishments are between “Normal” Zina & Zina Bil-Jab’r (Jareematul-Ightisaab) (rape) are as follows:

    Firstly, Victim faces no criminal punishment versus in “Normal” Zina both parties are punished because it’s consensual.

    Secondly, Victim gets financial compensation (in Meh’r) versus in “Normal” Zina there is no compensation because its consensual

    Thirdly, If the victim was abducted or forced from his/her place of living then additional charge of highway banditry (and terrorism) is applied and the implementation of Hadd for this charge only requires 2 witnesses (and not four) and then the second Hadd of Zina is applied (which requires 4 witnesses)

    Fourthly, If the required witnesses are not present then circumstantial evidence (DNA, finger prints, medical tests) is taken into account and Taz’eer applied.

    To put Islamic Shariah aside and explain this to you in legal terms, consider the umbrella of “manslaughter” . In general if you kill someone and the evidence is less culpable then murder then prosecution will charge a person with “manslaughter”. But, is shooting dead a person at point blank range the same as running over a pedestrian while driving under the influence of Alcohol?

    Off course not so this shows that there are degrees of “manslaughter” and wherever there is a loss of life legally the charge of “manslaughter” can be used but then it has categories and subdivisions based on circumstances.

    Similarly, sexual contact outside of marriage is “Zina” in general but then the Shariah clearly distinguishes casual sex from rape and also adds the charges of abduction etc to this despicable and heinous crime.

    So my Sister in Islam, I request that you zoom out and overlook the categorization of rape as “Zina” and look further and you will clearly spot differences some of which I have summarized for you.

    Don't think that Tazeer is leniency otherwise you will have a rude awakening! :)

    As Gandhi said to the British at the time of his last imprisonment, “I hope that our disagreements won’t stand between us forever” :shake: :SMILY209: :shake: :SMILY335:

    Finally, I know that when it comes to paedophilia, rape and other such as despicable acts we would like to come up with our painful punishment but the Shariah has stipulated “Hadd” in the Qur’aan & Sunnah and Taz’eer is upto whatever has been legislated by the legislative Shura of the Islamic state. Generally, all crimes of such nature are punishment by “Firing Squad” (through Ta'zeer) and where Hadd is applicable then it is applied.

    Mullah Omar of Taliban came to power after killing a rapist and hanging his dead body on a tree because he was powerful and the village were powerless to charge let alone apprehend and punish the victim and in this case Tazeer was more painful then Hadd.

    :wasalam:
  17. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    I can't edit my posts and the last 2 lines are obviously wrong and I meant punish the "perpetrator" and not the victim!
  18. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    No one is "throwing shame" at you. Its just frustrating when these brothers and sisters provide proof from literature, yet you're still stubborn. This is not the first time you protected rapists. You've done it before. I find it rather disgusting for someone to defend rapists. Get your facts straight: Zina is not limited to consensual fornication or adultery. Penetration qualifies as zina, and those rapists committed zina. I don't see why this thread won't end there
  19. tic_tac_toe
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    tic_tac_toe Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    I believe that you may be misunderstanding her intentions as she is not defending rapists, rather her point is that rape is much more then Zina so she is dissatisfied with rape being classed under the umbrella of zina and thinks that it is more heinous and despicable and should be a separate category.

    :wasalam:
  20. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    :wasalam:

    Read the earlier posts

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