saudi women at Olympics

[kashif_nazeer]

I wanted to clear some issues regarding appendix and undesirable designs.
Insha'Allah few others coming up soon.Although I do know,on sincere questioning people would find the answers when pondering upon their innate disposition,when it is covered up the chaos comes about and darkness overshdaows.But light chases darkness away.That's what revelations do.
An example and analogy is meant to make people understand but as it says in Surah Al Baqarah in a verse about analogy of a mosquito,some are guided thereby and others are mislead,but none is misled,except those who are bent upon being defiantly disobedient/rebellious:
This is not an issue of science and non science,actually there are psychological reasons for disbelief,science can be demarcated any time,so the first step would be introspection,reflection.

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,[2:26]
Listen to the explanation of this verse [HERE]

Visit these link>> Is the Appendix useless?
[h=2]Undesirable design[/h]

 

[strive-may-i]

Greetings.

Everything with a beginning has a cause. Correct. So, where you think it should not lead us to?

No, I think it gets us nowhere. If we agree that nothing can exist without being made, then that rule must apply to everything or it means nothing.

Here is where the choice is. We are standing just at the intersection with alternative ways. Its the choice to believe. Science will never discover it. Simply because, the big bang like situation experiments will not create another big bang out of nothing.

If you state that something does exist without being made, i.e. God, then why should other things not exist without being made?
To quote Bertrand Russell, ""If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument.

Strange, that you quote Russell. I had Russell in mind when I asked you that question. Russell was wrong, Everything that has a beginning has a cause. Proven, by science. Universe has a cause, it has a beginning. Creation has beginning. The cause of the universe should be non-material. Everything created, is subject to the beginning. Allah has no beginning, everlasting, unlike the creation (non-material) these are HIS (Creator's) attributes. Now how do I know? Belief (May my belief get stronger ... Ameen). And how did i settle at this, Allah clarifies and reassures it in the Quran, its the truth...


To not agree to this line is also a belief, mind you .... This leads to
First -that universe was always existing (1a) or formed on its own (1b)
Second - life component seen (so far only in earth, Quran tells there is more to it than what we humans will ever know) always existed (2a) and was formed on its own (2b).

These two lines of thought, have consistently taken a hit and needed constant correction.

Belief of some (lets call them atheist) in the past, was that universe was always existing. Some scientists did experiments in past to tell life formed on its own. That the germs and worms on a dead rat came from thin air etc... But now we are at an understanding that universe had a beginning. This fact rules out 1a, and most agree it rules out 2a. That leaves 1b,2b. 2b is again very vast. With the unseen, life like forms like virus etc, and knowing that (from Quran, Prophet, experiences of people )there are angels, jinns and the anti matter world. Withing the universe, unknown is already overwhelmingly too much for humans alone to find the answer to it all. In my opinion, being part of the system we will never ever be able to find answers to this. The gaps are huge, we have discovered more questions that challenge these two lines of thought. 1b, is the discussion point here. The answer is clear, and here from Quran,
'..... the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?' [Qur'an 21:30]


(Some questions need will, deep honest pondering and sufficiency to arrive at clear picture. There was a thread somewhere in TTI, which suits creation conversation, Will link to it if i find it today...
Again repeating the request, start your own thread, give it the title, and for sure it will get the attention it deserves.)

It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, 'How about the tortoise?' the Indian said, 'Suppose we change the subject.'"

I will choose to skip this. And Question the wisdom, reason and intent behind tossing this in...

 

[Townie]

The why's and wherefore's you are seeking answers to are the wrong questions. How much of the Quran have you read? Start there and then ask questions. If you could ask me one question about Islam what would it be?

I have read the Qu'ran, but only in translation. I have also read the Bible, the Torah and the Book of Mormon.
Each book has adherents who sincerely believe it to be the true word of God.
Each book contains inconsistencies and errors, but the faithful choose not to see them.
Most people follow the religion they were born into and are convinced they will be going to heaven while everyone else will go to hell.
So my question is - what makes Islam different from the other religions?

 

[sister herb]

Reading is one thing but¨have you understood Quran?

 

[Townie]

I wanted to clear some issues regarding appendix and undesirable designs.
Insha'Allah few others coming up soon.Although I do know,on sincere questioning people would find the answers when pondering upon their innate disposition,when it is covered up the chaos comes about and darkness overshdaows.But light chases darkness away.That's what revelations do.
An example and analogy is meant to make people understand but as it says in Surah Al Baqarah in a verse about analogy of a mosquito,some are guided thereby and others are mislead,but none is misled,except those who are bent upon being defiantly disobedient/rebellious:
This is not an issue of science and non science,actually there are psychological reasons for disbelief,science can be demarcated any time,so the first step would be introspection,reflection.

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,[2:26]
Listen to the explanation of this verse [HERE]

Visit these link>> Is the Appendix useless?
[h=2]Undesirable design[/h]

From 'http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html'
"However, contrary to what one is apt to read in anti-evolutionary literature, there is currently no evidence demonstrating that the appendix, as a separate organ, has a specific immune function in humans (Judge and Lichtenstein 2001; Dasso et al. 2000; Williams and Myers 1994, pp. 5, 26-29). To date, all experimental studies of the function of an appendix (other than routine human appendectomies) have been exclusively in rabbits and, to a lesser extent, rodents. Currently it is unclear whether the lymphoid tissue in the human appendix performs any specialized function apart from the much larger amount of lymphatic tissue already distributed throughout the gut. Most importantly with regard to vestigiality, there is no evidence from any mammal suggesting that the hominoid vermiform appendix performs functions above and beyond those of the lymphoid-rich caeca of other primates and mammals that lack distinct appendixes."

Clearly it is possible to believe whatever we want to believe!

 

[Townie]

Belief of some (lets call them atheist) in the past, was that universe was always existing. Some scientists did experiments in past to tell life formed on its own. That the germs and worms on a dead rat came from thin air etc... But now we are at an understanding that universe had a beginning. This fact rules out 1a, and most agree it rules out 2a. That leaves 1b,2b. 2b is again very vast. With the unseen, life like forms like virus etc, and knowing that (from Quran, Prophet, experiences of people )there are angels, jinns and the anti matter world. Withing the universe, unknown is already overwhelmingly too much for humans alone to find the answer to it all. In my opinion, being part of the system we will never ever be able to find answers to this. The gaps are huge, we have discovered more questions that challenge these two lines of thought. 1b, is the discussion point here. The answer is clear, and here from Quran,
'..... the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?' [Qur'an 21:30]

I think you are confused about the term 'atheist' and the distinction between science and religion.
It is not possible to assign any belief to an atheist since the term means only an absence of belief in a theist system.
Science doesn't have beliefs either. It has theories that are testable, and as facts are discovered these either add weight to the theory or disprove it. At this point we can only either abandon the theory or adapt it to fit the facts.
Religion meanwhile starts with a set of beliefs, then manipulates facts to fit in with them. As time goes on and more facts are discovered this becomes more difficult and the believer will start to see their holy writings as metaphors or allegories. This has happened already with the Bible and the Torah, where most adherents no longer believe in their literal truth.

 

[kashif_nazeer]

From 'http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vestiges/appendix.html'
"However, contrary to what one is apt to read in anti-evolutionary literature, there is currently no evidence demonstrating that the appendix, as a separate organ, has a specific immune function in humans (Judge and Lichtenstein 2001; Dasso et al. 2000; Williams and Myers 1994, pp. 5, 26-29). To date, all experimental studies of the function of an appendix (other than routine human appendectomies) have been exclusively in rabbits and, to a lesser extent, rodents. Currently it is unclear whether the lymphoid tissue in the human appendix performs any specialized function apart from the much larger amount of lymphatic tissue already distributed throughout the gut. Most importantly with regard to vestigiality, there is no evidence from any mammal suggesting that the hominoid vermiform appendix performs functions above and beyond those of the lymphoid-rich caeca of other primates and mammals that lack distinct appendixes."

Clearly it is possible to believe whatever we want to believe!

Same stands true for both of us.
Although Islam is not based on blind faith ,it is based on baseerah(certain knowledge),so certain as if one can see with their own eyes.That cannot come with or be attained with a corrupt fitrah which has been buried.Kufr means to cover up and bury as well.(Read about it a wee bit more if you can insha'Allah.

That is why I have said there are psychological reasons for being an atheist and not rational ones.Hence basing one's eternity on mere assumption of interpretation of science is not an intelligent idea,now is it?
Human perception do not go beyond 5,sight,smell,sound,sense,speech,maybe one or two more but then that's it.

I just provided you with a study that was for it and you provided me with one that was not so against it.
We can debate on it for eternity : )
It is clear that,if one wants to deny something they can go on and on,looking for ways around a thing.
Human intellect can never solve the ultimate mystery of nature,as it is limited in itself and in the last part of analyses we ourselves are the part of the mystery we are trying to solve as Max Planck has said in his book.That is why Science is demracated from time to time.Since a new leap leads to a newer conclusion different from the first.
To be humble is what truth needs one to be,Islam in itself is submission of the limited human intellect before the infinite knowledge and wisdom of the creator.
I would request you to study Islam from authentic sources from the scratch.
Anyhow,it's your choice,it's your life.

 

[uniqueskates]

I have read the Qu'ran, but only in translation. I have also read the Bible, the Torah and the Book of Mormon.
Each book has adherents who sincerely believe it to be the true word of God.
Each book contains inconsistencies and errors, but the faithful choose not to see them.
Most people follow the religion they were born into and are convinced they will be going to heaven while everyone else will go to hell.
So my question is - what makes Islam different from the other religions?

Greetings brother Townie,

I have not read much as you have. Indeed applaudable MashaAllah.
But i couldn't help myself from asking, what are the inconsistencies you found in Quran and Islam?

Peace
Allah Hafiz

 

[Townie]

Same stands true for both of us.

Of course.

Although Islam is not based on blind faith ,it is based on baseerah(certain knowledge),so certain as if one can see with their own eyes.That cannot come with or be attained with a corrupt fitrah which has been buried.Kufr means to cover up and bury as well.(Read about it a wee bit more if you can insha'Allah.

Certain knowledge comes from facts, not faith. Faith offers no way to discover the truth about anything, since the only way to improve our understanding is to seek errors in what we believe and correct them. You can't do this if you claim that your initial assumptions are infallible.

 

[Townie]

Greetings brother Townie,

I have not read much as you have. Indeed applaudable MashaAllah.
But i couldn't help myself from asking, what are the inconsistencies you found in Quran and Islam?

Peace
Allah Hafiz

Just a couple of examples.
The Qu'ran repeats the mistake found in the bible that Jesus was born of a virgin.
The Qu'ran says there is a 'barrier' between salt and fresh water which stops them mixing.

 

[sister herb]

Of course.

Certain knowledge comes from facts, not faith. Faith offers no way to discover the truth about anything, since the only way to improve our understanding is to seek errors in what we believe and correct them. You can't do this if you claim that your initial assumptions are infallible.

If you haven´t able to faith I afraid no human can´t help you. Allah only could... if He wills. If not, you only lost our time in here, Townie.

 

[sabs1164]

Just a couple of examples.
The Qu'ran repeats the mistake found in the bible that Jesus was born of a virgin.
The Qu'ran says there is a 'barrier' between salt and fresh water which stops them mixing.

dont you know of the waters in the capetown which don't mix? i could have sent the picture but having a problem uploading my pictures.

they tasted the waters, the other side is sweet and the other salty...

before you attack the Qur'an seek knowledge first.

As-salaamu alaikum

 

[Townie]

dont you know of the waters in the capetown which don't mix? i could have sent the picture but having a problem uploading my pictures.

they tasted the waters, the other side is sweet and the other salty...

before you attack the Qur'an seek knowledge first.

As-salaamu alaikum

It's not an attack, and of course I know about water currents which cause flows of sea and fresh water to remain separate, such as in the Arctic Ocean; but what of the water from every river which discharges into the sea?
This does not remain separate, it mixes, the same as the brackish water found around most coastlines.

 

[Idris16]

Townie, why dont you write a Quran to show us that our real Quran is fake? Even if you could understand the clear Arabic tongue you wouldnt accomplish writing a Quran so beautiful even if you were to bring many groups to support you.

 

[Townie]

Townie, why dont you write a Quran to show us that our real Quran is fake? Even if you could understand the clear Arabic tongue you wouldnt accomplish writing a Quran so beautiful even if you were to bring many groups to support you.

I didn't say it was a fake, I just pointed out that it contains inconsistencies.
I am not interested in Islam because I want to believe things that are demonstrably not true, but because I think the way Muslims live is admirable and I would like to know why.

 

[uniqueskates]

I didn't say it was a fake, I just pointed out that it contains inconsistencies.
I am not interested in Islam because I want to believe things that are demonstrably not true, but because I think the way Muslims live is admirable and I would like to know why.

Greetings brother Townie,

Well.. I am glad u admire the way Muslims live, great to know.
And reg, the mixing of the river and sea brother.. Frankly, neither i am a geologist nor am a great researcher, i have a very limited knowledge, and am sure if u had asked Einstein about Geography or Politics, the only reaction he would have given you is a blank face or scratching his head.. As you say, you can see the brackish water at the shore, even i live in a city which has a shore and am a full moon lover, i do go to beach.. I don find it there.. Maybe i am wrong, and you are right, you do see it.. Agreed, but do you know what actually happens at the junction when the river meets the sea? We see what happens on the surface level, that's it.. Not what happens below it brother.. Everything is not perceived by the human eye..
And everything we see is not real/true right? Looks can be deceptive!! that brackish thing might be something else too, there are possibilities, at the rate we humans are dumping stuffs in oceans and seas and rivers, i don't think they are clean..

Peace

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam alaikum,

I thought about your question all day.

What makes Islam so different is this: There is no compulsion in religion. You seek the faith out of choice. As you seek the faith the practice becomes easier as the blessings just quadruple. It is like hitting the jackpot everyday.

All seekers have the same goal. The goal is to get closer to the One. In Islam, Allah subhana wa taala has made it easy. One as simple as me can do that. He has given us the blueprint. He has told us every step to take. The criterion is there in black and white. There are no ifs, ands, and buts. It is.

On a more philosophical level Islam address every quintessential question that a seeker has pondered. The nature of man is exposed. Every condition of man is described in the Quran. Every possible dilemma is deconstructed and there is always a solution.

Unlike other faiths Islam emphasis the need to live in this life and appreciate it. We are not to renounce the wonders of this world. We are told we are not islands floating aimlessly. We have a responsibility to ourselves and the world we live in, however temporarily. Whatever we do in this life will carry over.So we have to be gentle. We have to be proactive. We are part of Creation and we are given more than other creatures. We are given the gift of knowledge. It is deep in our souls to seek knowledge.

Hope this brief response gets you to think a wee bit, InshaAllah.

 

[Townie]

Assalaam alaikum,

I thought about your question all day.

What makes Islam so different is this: There is no compulsion in religion. You seek the faith out of choice. As you seek the faith the practice becomes easier as the blessings just quadruple. It is like hitting the jackpot everyday.

All seekers have the same goal. The goal is to get closer to the One. In Islam, Allah subhana wa taala has made it easy. One as simple as me can do that. He has given us the blueprint. He has told us every step to take. The criterion is there in black and white. There are no ifs, ands, and buts. It is.

On a more philosophical level Islam address every quintessential question that a seeker has pondered. The nature of man is exposed. Every condition of man is described in the Quran. Every possible dilemma is deconstructed and there is always a solution.

Unlike other faiths Islam emphasis the need to live in this life and appreciate it. We are not to renounce the wonders of this world. We are told we are not islands floating aimlessly. We have a responsibility to ourselves and the world we live in, however temporarily. Whatever we do in this life will carry over.So we have to be gentle. We have to be proactive. We are part of Creation and we are given more than other creatures. We are given the gift of knowledge. It is deep in our souls to seek knowledge.

Hope this brief response gets you to think a wee bit, InshaAllah.

Thank you for your reply.
I will think about what you wrote, but my first reaction is that a believer in just about any religion could say the same thing.
There is no compulsion in any religion, apart from countries where to apostatise is punishable by death. This is only true in countries that call themselves Islamic.
Christians and Jews would assert that God has given them a blueprint too; one which leads to paradise for them and hell for everyone else.
I think that other religions emphasise the need to live in this life and appreciate it. A few deluded souls become hermits, but it is a very small percentage.
I am not sure that any religion encourages its followers to seek knowledge, in the sense of discovering something new. They tend to encourage deeper investigation into their holy books, which are of their time, and therefore wildly inaccurate when it comes to what we know now about our World.
I wish that it was possible for religions to update their beliefs. Some of the effects of religion are very positive, but the dogmatic certainty of many of their followers seems to lead only to conflict.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam alaikum,

That is the reason I asked that you contemplate. Our first reactions are often simply reaction. This is about much deeper stuff. The first step is to forget about everyone and everything else. Your responses are still in the comparative stage. We are limiting our discussion to what Islam offers. And Islam mandates that we seek knowledge. It is not constrained to time or period.

Islam does not need to be updated. What may seem to be oppressive or dogmatic in the beginning is just the opposite when understanding is achieved. Souls need to be disciplined to become free.

And if we look at history the Spanish Inquisition and the era of Bloody Mary in England speaks for itself for the Christian faith. As for the Jewish faith, it is just the opposite. They want an exclusive group of the Chosen Ones. As I write the situation in Israel with African Jews not being able to attend schools because of the color of their skin says it all.

Islam beckons us to appreciate the marvels and mastery of Creation and its uniformity.

I pray this helps you to think a little more.

 

[strive-may-i]

Typical. Either, you dont know science or have a wrong view of science.
Seems You know to read, and appears you fail to grasp from what you read and understand.

I think you are confused about the term 'atheist' and the distinction between science and religion.

Typical. You are not just wrong about Theist, you are wrong about Atheist too!

It is not possible to assign any belief to an atheist since the term means only an absence of belief in a theist system.

You are confused by your own words. A belief in creator is theism, and a stance opposite to it, is also a belief, by the very same yardstick. But the plane you are in is still the same. An Atheists, ego prevents him from assigning the word belief, simple. You are the 'i am better than this crowd' and belong to the other crowd talk... but it has no substance to it.

Athiestm is an even more vague idea in which high confidence is placed. Matches the definition of belief. No use in redefining the word belief.

Struggling harder to prove that you dont have a belief?

Clearly it is possible to believe whatever we want to believe!

As time goes on and more facts are discovered ......

Science discovers what God has created. Its a fact. Nothing more. You just use words to mask it.
You ignored. Russell's was hinging to 1a, ie the universe existed always on its own and had no beginning. So, there was lack of evidence as per atheists then in that era. This was used as a flash card. As facts (truth) got discovered, more pages were written, more mental jugglery, more maths done and one simple truth resulted, the world had a beginning, just like how Allah had stated in Qur'an.
More will pile up.