Shaykh Ibn Baaz (RA) on staying in a western country

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jabba

Salafi Dawah is the best
:salam2:

This whole thing sounds so...wrong. Islam is for everyone - for the whole world. I just find it so wrong that one should draw dividing lines and say "this is where Muslims are, this is where the kuffar are" when it comes to the world and geographic locations. Islam isn't just for the East. Yes, there's a lot of haram things in the West, but there's also a lot of good things, and there are plenty of wrong and haram things all throughout the East. To me this sort of supports the opinion that some people have, which is that you can't be a "real Muslim" if you live in the West - only if you're from the Middle East. Or that you're somehow less of a Muslim because you don't live in a Muslim majority country. This also, in my opinion, projects the idea that you can't live or interact with Christians - that they're somehow evil, dirty people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been taught since even before converting that Christians and Jews are our misguided brothers and sisters, and that we shouldn't be hating them.

And, like jabba said, how would you expect to give dawah to people in the West if everyone stayed in the East? You wouldn't. So very few would convert, and those that did convert would be very alone and without guidance. I highly doubt that Allah would want his truth to be secluded to one part of the world - and if all Muslims stayed in the East, that's what would happen. Many think that Islam is only for Arabs, or others in the East - certainly not for white Westerners. And if people were to follow through on this fatwa, that's exactly what would happen - it would be for those in the East, not for anyone in the West.

Your geographic location alone doesn't and shouldn't make you a good or bad Muslim.

:wasalam:

:salam2:

thank you sister for expanding on my point :) we can look at oppinions of other scholars all we want but the fact is these scholars have never lived in the West, they have always been Muslim so they really have no idea what it is like for Muslims living in the west, they just hear stories in the news and paint all of the west with the same brush. Living in the West as a Muslim is not the worst thing that could happen, with all the Muslims in western Canada you should see how fast more and more mosques are popping up mashAllah it;s great!! If more and more people were less iggnorant and hateful we'd have no problem living with people of different cultures and religions.
:wasalam:
 

Abu Sarah

Allahu Akbar
Staff member
The one thing that worries me is that people taksoob( blindly follow) saudi salafees.

look Akhi..u always talk without any Evidence :astag:
n u should know Guidelines for Following Madhhabs ..


we aren't blindly follow..refer to :The Sayings of the Four Imams on blind-following (Taqlid)...

ok..u should learn more about..The Aqeedah of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah.....
n here :Characteristics of the Victorious Group: Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah

..........................................................................................

n keep in ur mind what Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan saied:

the Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sahaabah and the path of the Salaf (the early generations of Islam). These are not two distinct groups, and the Salafis are not a more specific group!

According to the terminology that is well known, the Salaf are the Sahaabah and those who follow their path, and the Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Messenger :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are the ones concerning whom the hadeeth was reported: “Whoever follows the same path as me and my Companions” (The hadeeth about the saved group).

Stirring up disputes and conflict on the grounds of names alone is not permissible. Allaah has commanded the believers to be united and has forbidden them to be divided and warned them against that.

The individual’s aim must be to seek the truth, and when he speaks he should say what is fair and just, and not hate individuals in such a way that his hatred makes him reject the truth that the person is saying, or look for faults in him. He should not come up with things that are ambiguous or far-fetched for that purpose. This is not the way of Ahl al-Sunnah, and the Muslim has to like for his brother what he likes for himself. He must be sincere towards him, and hold love and sincerity in his heart.

end Quoted from Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan
...............................................
<wasalam>
 

Amirah20

Junior Member
Shaikh Albani , i respect him. i respect his opinion . But he is a human being . We should not taksoob him( im not saying you are taqleed ing him) .
i guess i should stop here. But im glad you allow this thread to be reopen . Akhi ayman offered it to me to be reopen , i didnt agree with that but its best we get it clear...

The one thing that worries me is that people taksoob( blindly follow) saudi salafees.

I could say the same for every single shaikh. And what is wrong with the salafi teaching? plz do tell me I would like to know. what does salafi mean to you?
 

ayman

La Ilaha Illa Allah
Staff member
What or who is Salaf?

The word Salaf is a shortened version of the word Salafus-Saalih, which means the Righteous Predecessors. It refers specifically to the first three generations of Islaam. The first, the Prophet sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam & his Sahaabah (companions). The second, the Taabi'een (the followers of the companions). The third, the Tabaa'at-Taabi'een (the followers of the followers of the companions). Generally, this term refers to all those pious predecessors who followed the way of the Salaf and who have preceded us in time.

Imaam Aboo ’Amr ’Abdur-Rahmaan Ibn ’Amr al-Awzaa’ee [d.179H]: “Stick to the aathaar of those who have preceded (man salaf), even if the people reject you. And beware of the opinions of men, even if they beautify it for you with speech. So the affair is young and you are upon a Straight Path with regards to it.”



www.calgaryislam.co
Shaykh-ul-Islaam ibn Taymiyyah: “Whoever deviates from the Madhhab and Tafseer of the Sahaaba and Tabi’een to that which opposes it then he has erred in that rather (he has) innovated."
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
:salam2:

thank you sister for expanding on my point :) we can look at oppinions of other scholars all we want but the fact is these scholars have never lived in the West, they have always been Muslim so they really have no idea what it is like for Muslims living in the west, they just hear stories in the news and paint all of the west with the same brush. Living in the West as a Muslim is not the worst thing that could happen, with all the Muslims in western Canada you should see how fast more and more mosques are popping up mashAllah it;s great!! If more and more people were less iggnorant and hateful we'd have no problem living with people of different cultures and religions.
:wasalam:

Exactly...and if people keep moving to the West, and people keep converting, then these Western countries will become Muslim countries in time - well, that is if you define it as Muslim-majority. If you define a Muslim country as being under complete and correct shari'ah law, then none exists today.

As for the hadith that condemns anyone who moves or lives in a Muslim-minority country...I'm not going to go into whether or not it's authentic, but I personally find that it goes against the teachings of Islam, and what I believe Islam to be - I really doubt that Allah (swt) would want his message of truth secluded to one groups of people. And I also doubt that your geographic location makes you a good or bad Muslim, as I've stated before.

The fatwa in general seems, to me, to belittle and illegitamize Muslims in the West as a whole, and more specifically Western converts. If Islam really does teach that the message should be secluded to one region and one peoples, and that living in the West and therefore being a Western convert makes you a bad Muslim, or a Muslim with less standing than someone who lives in the M.E., then I would be very disturbed.

If you want people to stay and migrate to the Middle East, we should be working harder to solve the many problems present there. Practicing Islam may be easier in the M.E. than in certain parts of the West, but that doesn't mean that there aren't many other social, political, and economic problems that repel people from living there. Plus...is it even possible to fit all the Muslims in the world into habitable places in the M.E.? I kind of doubt it.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

I see two different discussions here.
Help me out: Is it not written in the Quran for Muslims to stay together. Yes we are told to explore the world but we gain strenght from our family of Isalm.
There are many hadits that help us to understand why we need to remain as an ummath. Yes, we Muslims need to stick toghether.

When we live with the kuffir..we are infected by their lifestyles. We have to strive harder not to be like them. We have to make sure we don't fall into the culture. We have to remain pure. It is no easy task.


The Muslim sisters who have reverted are protecting living in the western world.

Is there anyone who can tie this together for us.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
Salaam,

I see two different discussions here.
Help me out: Is it not written in the Quran for Muslims to stay together. Yes we are told to explore the world but we gain strenght from our family of Isalm.
There are many hadits that help us to understand why we need to remain as an ummath. Yes, we Muslims need to stick toghether.

When we live with the kuffir..we are infected by their lifestyles. We have to strive harder not to be like them. We have to make sure we don't fall into the culture. We have to remain pure. It is no easy task.


The Muslim sisters who have reverted are protecting living in the western world.

Is there anyone who can tie this together for us.

Yes, you should stick with your family. But sometimes families leave poverty and hardships behind and migrate to the West, or leave for other reasons. I'm certainly not defending Western culture, and I'll fully admit there's a lot of bad things in the West, as there are bad things in the East (not to the extent as in the West, but the East is hardly a perfect Islamic environment these days). But good things have certainly come out of people moving to the West - more people convert, Islam is spreading. So, if people were to have stayed in the M.E., how can you spread the message of Islam? Secluding Muslims to one area also largely secludes Islam to one area, and that's just not right.
 

hussain.mahammed

a lonely traveller
As salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wabrakatuhu
I did not want to enter this thread but had no other option to give just an important input.
A number of brothers and sisters have given his/her opinion. So I think the matter is over as long as we do what we want to do. Allah Subhanahu wa Taala has given us the free will, so if a Muslim wants to go and live in a western country let him do so, its upto him totally, and if a Muslim wants to make hijrah, (get away from a society full of evil) and live in a Muslim country, let him also do so. I dont think there is any point arguing over this matter. Its a matter of free will for us.
Brother islamicfajr just gave a great advice, he did not order or force us to follow what he mentioned in his post.
So its upto you brothers and sisters, the choice is entirely yours.
There is no point arguing and saying that there is no good Muslim country etc etc.
I hope the best for each and every Muslim, May Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala give us Hikmah (wisdom) and Hidayah (guidance).
wa/salam
 

muharram23

New Member
Staff member
:salam2:

Our Prophet (PBUH) lived amoung Jews and Christians. His noble behaviour made majority of them to convert to Islam. He showed us the true example of love and peaceful co-existence. Even after the departure of him, the companions spread all over the neighboring countries irrespective of Islamic or non-Islamic to spread the world of Allah. They might had lived with non-muslims as well.

Moreover, it is easy for someone living peacefully in a Islamic country with its passport to issue a fatwa like that. However, based on his adivce, suppose if some muslim want to move to a Islamic country from a non-islamic country, who will provide the new citizenship? Which Islamic country is ready to welcome you? Which Islamic country is ready to provide the citizenship for the people from Thailand, Burma, Mongolia, India, Siri lanka, South Africa, Kenya etc to fulfill the requirements of this fatwa? I did not mention europe or US as there might be remote chance that they give citizenship based on skin colour to some of westerners but perhaps no hope for the countries i mentioned. So where the people of these countries can go in the world? Can Sheik provide some alternative?

:wasalam:

Salamu alaykum proud2bhumble

first of all akhi, that is not a way to talk about the sheikh. Sejkh rahimehullah spent 50-60 yrs of his life studying the deen and many knowledgeble people around the world now days have been taught by this honarable scholar. As you mentioned that Resulullah s.va lived with jews and christians. that is correct, however the muslims had the power. They had the power to rule them as well as implement shariah. Why was hijjrah made from makkah to madinah? First of all it was command of ALlah s.va , 2nd muslims were minority and persecuted + they could not practice islam openly nor spread dawa.
Ur right that we dont have a muslim country that we can return or make hijrah too. I am Bosnian and i live in US. However, i can return to bosnia if i want. I have citizenship and passport. Even though bosnia has all the haram that is practised here in US the majortiy of population is muslim. So when ramadan comes, u feel its ramadan. When it eid, u feel its eid. Masjids are all around and u can hear the athan from all directions, its beatiful. Saudi Arabia is the closest country that practices shariah. There is many ways people could make hijrah. Finishing schools here in the west u can easily find a job working over there.
I mean, especially in the medical field, u can find all kinds of jobs that they need overthere. They have thousands of non muslims working over there so why wouldnt we try?

We muslims need to listen to the ulema because they are the head of this ummah. Otherwise everyone can follow their own opinions. Sometimes the fatwa that is given will not statisfy our desires, but we still need to accept it as long as it does not contradict Quran and Sunnah.

Wish Shaikh Bin Baz was still alive rahimehullah. Everyone knows him for fighting shirk and biddah the most.

Wallahu alem

salamu alayku
 

Proud2BeHumble

Seek Truth, Be Happy
:salam2:

first of all akhi, that is not a way to talk about the sheikh. Sejkh rahimehullah spent 50-60 yrs of his life studying the deen and many knowledgeble people around the world now days have been taught by this honarable scholar.

I admit he is honourable scholar. I dont want to insult any of our religious scholar but they too must keep in mind the situation of all the muslims of the world while issuing any fatwa in general. It is their responsibility to avoid fitna and confusion else they should specify that this and this fatwa is only meant for citizens of islamic countries living in west.

What i broadly understood from his fatwa is that he is asking muslims of islamic-countires not to base themselves permanently in west as it will affect islamic values, specially for the new generation, which he might have came across through his experience.

Brother Isamicfajr has mentioned 2 conditions that can allow muslims to live in non-muslim lands

1) that the person must be secure in his religious commitment, so that he has enough knowledge, faith and will power to ensure that he will adhere firmly to his religion and beware of deviating or going astray

I have noticed in general that practicing muslims of west are much more committed (with taqwa) than practicing muslims of so called islamic countries. Though deviated muslims exist at both place.

2) is that he should be able to practice his religion openly, so that he can observe the rituals of Islam with no impediment. So he will not be prevented from establishing regular prayer, and praying Jumu’ah and offering prayers in congregation if there are others there with whom he can pray in congregation and pray Jumu’ah; and he will not be prevented from paying zakaah, fasting, performing Hajj and doing other rituals of Islam.

In west there is more freedom than in so called islamic countries. For instance i have heard, Tableegh jamat is banned in some of these countries to work openly.

As you mentioned that Resulullah s.va lived with jews and christians. that is correct, however the muslims had the power.

During his initial year in Makkah, Muslims were not in power.

They had the power to rule them as well as implement shariah. Why was hijjrah made from makkah to madinah? First of all it was command of ALlah s.va , 2nd muslims were minority and persecuted + they could not practice islam openly nor spread dawa.

Yes, if enemy persecutes muslims, you will have no other way but to make hijra. During war time thousands of people move into neighboring countries. In the current times mass hijra is only possible in the form of war refugees else not country accepts you. I have heard western countires giving asylum to such people (in need) but never heard any muslim country giving such asylum (except for arabs) . Iraqi women are making hijra to syria and i heard they are forced into evil to survive.

When prophet (PBUH) left Mekkah he had tears in his eyes. It was out of his wisdom he moved to madina and continued his mission over there. The people of Madina were there to accept him with warm heart. But such situation does not exist these days.

Ur right that we dont have a muslim country that we can return or make hijrah too. I am Bosnian and i live in US. However, i can return to bosnia if i want. I have citizenship and passport. Even though bosnia has all the haram that is practised here in US the majortiy of population is muslim.So when ramadan comes, u feel its ramadan. When it eid, u feel its eid. Masjids are all around and u can hear the athan from all directions, its beatiful.

It is really beautiful what you mentioned. Yes, you can return to bosnia (which is a muslim country) but what about muslims of thailand, burma, mongolia, china, india, singapore, ethopia, kenya, south africa etc? Please advice where they will go? I am not taking about a bosnian living in china but a chinese muslims who is chinese by birth. This is important question and must be answered , if you want to remain too rigid of fatwa opinion.

Saudi Arabia is the closest country that practices shariah. There is many ways people could make hijrah. Finishing schools here in the west u can easily find a job working over there. I mean, especially in the medical field, u can find all kinds of jobs that they need overthere. They have thousands of non muslims working over there so why wouldnt we try?

Yes, you can try but not each of us can go there. Dont try to find a solution only for yourself. This fatwa is meant for all the muslims of the world. All are not doctors, engineers and software professionals. Does it means that uneducated, poor muslims living in india, for instance, will have to die as "half-muslims" living in non-muslim land and send to hell after their death? The population of whole middle east is equal to the daily train passengers in india. Can any country accommodate such huge muslim influx? Even being qualified, if you get a job in M.E., can you call you mother father brother and sister to live along with you?

We muslims need to listen to the ulema because they are the head of this ummah. Otherwise everyone can follow their own opinions. Sometimes the fatwa that is given will not statisfy our desires, but we still need to accept it as long as it does not contradict Quran and Sunnah.

Sister i agree with you, we need to listen to Ulema and respect them as well. But they also need to look at broader picture and not to narrow the options so much that it start to affect their own reputation. I did not knew about sheik baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) much and i read about him on wiki and came to know he hold very good position amoung scholars. Howerer, i was also surprized to see that he was also involved with controversy declaring that earth flat and a stationary globe!!! I dont think this news to be correct as for a high positioned scholar like him it will be not wise to say something like this.

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other..."

The above verse can be better applied to the fact that most of the muslims countries are living in the protection of Christian countries (millitary base etc) ....i think there is no need to give further details.

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They reply: ‘We were weak and oppressed on the earth.’ They (angels) say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!

Allah will ask muslims countries that these weak and oppressed people wanted to migrate to muslim countries so that they can practice islam better, why did not you allowed them the right to live and migrate. Perhaps the only answer will come is that we did not wanted to share our natural resources with ajamis and because their culture was too different from us. Moreover, it would have changed the demography of our country. Hence, may be Allah will forgive these oppressed and weak people living in non-muslims lands, i hope Inshallah.

It is narrated in a saheeh report from Jareer ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Bajali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: O Messenger of Allaah, accept my oath of allegiance and stipulate conditions. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Worship Allaah, establish regular prayer, pay zakaah, be sincere towards the Muslims and keep away from the mushrikeen.”

Keep away from the mushrikeen means not to adopt their wrong practices in your life. But in many muslims countries we do see there are night clubs, wine, prostitution and much more. In essence we need to avoid these bad things from society but perhaps it would not be wise to cut-off the relation from non-muslims as it will close all the way of giving Daawah.


:wasalam:
 

Ghareebah

Bint Abdulkadir
Shaikh Albani , i respect him. i respect his opinion . But he is a human being . We should not taksoob him( im not saying you are taqleed ing him) .
i guess i should stop here. But im glad you allow this thread to be reopen . Akhi ayman offered it to me to be reopen , i didnt agree with that but its best we get it clear...

The one thing that worries me is that people taksoob( blindly follow) saudi salafees.
:salam2:
BROTHER YOUR DISSING SAUDI SCHOLARS? you know i knew a group of youth in university who used to call saudi scholars as saudi salafees...until i found out they themselves were on a different aqeedah than ahlul sunnah wal jama3a...its the new term for what they used to be called wahabis/neo salafees/super salafees/madkhalees boy it goes on....you should stop with the name calling ...your not dissing someone of your own status these are scholars...and its haram in all cases to call names to people especially SCHOLARS...watch what you say :wasalam: oh and whats wrong with ascribing to the salaf? just cut out the saudi part..peace out
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Unfortunate circumstances!

:salam2:
BROTHER YOUR DISSING SAUDI SCHOLARS? you know i knew a group of youth in university who used to call saudi scholars as saudi salafees...until i found out they themselves were on a different aqeedah than ahlul sunnah wal jama3a...its the new term for what they used to be called wahabis/neo salafees/super salafees/madkhalees boy it goes on....you should stop with the name calling ...your not dissing someone of your own status these are scholars...and its haram in all cases to call names to people especially SCHOLARS...watch what you say :wasalam: oh and whats wrong with ascribing to the salaf? just cut out the saudi part..peace out
Asslamo Allaikum Sister in Islam,

Since both mine & Al-Kathiri’s posts are deleted by TTI staff; you have no way of knowing what he was actually saying and unfortunately he (like many others) is not being given a chance to explain himself and make to look like a absolute fool because posts are being deleted.

I can assure you that his intentions were/are neither to defame nor to defame anyone let alone scholars.

I hope that it will be sufficient for you.
 
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