Thoughts for Sister Kayleigh

[Aapa]

ssalaam walaikum,

I promised Kayleigh I would think a wee bit. On a hot thread the issue of gender specific roles came up. Are gender specific roles sometimes oppressive.
Now, folks..this is not a fatawa driven thread. I am posting in the lounge.

This is one of those looking in/looking out issues. What may seem oppressive looking in is not oppressive from the inside. The grass is always greener on the other side.

We, the sisters of the west have been raised to be one on one with men. Anything you can do I can do better. We have been competing with men. The battlefield is money. Equal opportunity is money. My credit score does not reflect my gender. It is my income and income potential. In essence, I am an x amount of dollars. Thereby, the field of experiences I have available to me are driven by my actual and predicted potential as compared to my age, educational background, health and sex. I am not oppressed as long as I remain within the box assigned to me. I am able to go up and down and around my box of attributes.

When we look at our non-western counterparts it blows our minds. The sisters are very accepting of circumstances. They may whine more than we do but they do not have the chip on the shoulder. They do not see themselves as oppressed. The demeanor is less threatening to men. These sisters are not the in your face girls.

Are they oppressed. No, not really if we narrowly define oppression in the materialistic sense. I see a trend. I see many brothers who marry girls who revert to Islam. They are the sweetest girls. They do not marry the tough cookie.

As usual I am open to comments.

 

[kayleigh]

Thanks for posting this thread.

When I asked about whether or not you think it is oppressive to force a gender role on someone who doesn't want it I was thinking of women who want to work, and men who would prefer to stay home and take care of the family, or even trans people who feel that they can't fit into the gender role that society or religion has assigned to them (though that is an entire new can of worms). Would it really be wrong to have a working mom and a stay at home dad, or just someone who doesn't feel comfortable neatly within the confines of a gender role, whether it be from Islam, Judaism, Western culture, Eastern culture - whatever? I don't see how it would be, though obviously I'm open to other view points on that.

I think the way men and women are generally characterized is a little bit of nature and a whole lot of nurture. I don't really believe there is a quality that a female inherently possesses that makes her a good caretaker and a male a bad one. I'm just saying that I don't believe a child would suffer or turn out badly if the father played a bigger role in raising him/her.

I was just reading a great article on how (in the West, at least) stay at home dads are becoming more common and the trend will continue because of the job market. I just think its something worth talking about and considering because things are rapidly changing and people are going to have to confront it sooner or later.

I, personally, am neutral on the topic of working after marriage and children. If I had to do it, or had a career I liked, I suppose I would like to. But I think women at least deserve that choice.

I'm not one of those people who looks down on stay at home moms. If someone makes a decision, I'm not going to look down on them for it. It's their choice and their life, and I don't think being a wife/mother and nothing else is oppressive as long as a) it was your choice, and b) you actually had other choices and options open to you - if you have no other options then that isn't a choice.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Sister..are you trying to get me banned. I have already had people wish a jinn on me.

The stay at home daddy is ok with me. My former husband stayed home for a year. It was nice coming home to a cooked meal and a semi-clean home. I see nothing wrong with it. It was great with our taxes, too.

Something tells me not many brothers on this site would hold the same view. The roles are more binding. I do not know if that is because they are young and inexperienced. Or if they are wealthy enough to afford a one-income family.

I would like to hear from more members. The Prophet, as a matter of fact, most of the named prophets, helped in the home, cleaned and cooked..so it seems bizarre to me that we have such defined male/female roles now.

 

[kayleigh]

Yeah its a little bizarre to me too. I remember reading in a sociology textbook that said the ONLY role shared by women globally is cooking. Other than cooking, there is no other task that all cultures give to women.

I think a lot of the gender roles come from culture and not necessarily Islam. Like you said, Muhammad and others shared in the household chores. But I know so many Muslim boys who can't even do their own laundry or microwave a frozen dinner, even if their lives depended on it. If you suggest that they learn they look at you like you've got a third eye. Their response is always, "But why? That's what a wife and mother is for."

Clearly, I'm not a fan of forcing anyone to do something they don't want to. I think every couple/family should decide what is best for the own situation, what best suits their individual personalities, and what will best serve the family. For some, that may mean the father takes care of the home while the mother works. If both agree to it and are comfortable with it then I fail to see how that could ever be bad or wrong.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

I have been writing the same words on my responses for the past few weeks. I know I am on another planet.

I do not understand how people are becoming so fixed into gender-specific roles. I come from a somewhat traditional family. My siblings and I were encouraged to try everything.

I thought Ozzie and Harriet were TV people. I am not whatsoever belittling anyone. We are both attempting to gauge the shift in the paradigm of gender specific roles. It makes little sense given the global economy and historically women in Islam have not been the diminutive shy sweet simple things.

When we look back at the major women in the Quran it is nice to see how tough they were. Hagar and Mary, mother of Jesus, come to mind. They did everything.

Beam me up Scottie.

 

[kayleigh]

I don't understand that... the women of Islam have always been strong and sassy lol. But I see people trying to characterize them as being shy and meek and when I read about them that's not the impression I get at all.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

And we are still in the tradition of the women of Allah strong and sassy... I am going to start selling t-shirts Muslim With Attitude ( money for hajj )

Sister...I do not understand what is going on...I feel like I am in a time machine...but I want to move forward..and it is going backwards.

 

[Valerie]

Assalaam walaikum,

And we are still in the tradition of the women of Allah strong and sassy... I am going to start selling t-shirts Muslim With Attitude ( money for hajj )

Sister...I do not understand what is going on...I feel like I am in a time machine...but I want to move forward..and it is going backwards.

:salam2:

to both of you.

 

[kayleigh]

Assalaam walaikum,

And we are still in the tradition of the women of Allah strong and sassy... I am going to start selling t-shirts Muslim With Attitude ( money for hajj )

Sister...I do not understand what is going on...I feel like I am in a time machine...but I want to move forward..and it is going backwards.

amen to that

I'll buy a t-shirt

 

[IHearIslam]

mashaAllaah very interesting thread! I think I am liking it.....I love it when people discuss thought provoking ideas.....obviously because it makes me "THINK HARD" mashaAllaah
may Allaah reward you for sharing your ideas....I am still thinking.

 

[elysetexel]

It's funny to read this, because last year there was a poll here in Holland. And it seems that here we have a lot of staying home moms compared to Belgium. I have Belgique relatives and they told me that it is rare to see that the mother or father stayes home to raise the children. They both work fulltime.
In Sweden it is normal to have 6 months of after labor and I think that is really amazing.

For myself I would like to stay home, just because I like to be home. This has nothing to do with religion, it's just my own feeling.

elyse

 

[arzafar]

i dont know about gender roles but women (Muslim women included) have always done more than the household duties. whether it be working in the fields or drawing water from wells. Moreover Muslim women have enjoyed extra benefits such as the owning business and property which rest of the women only got in the last century.

stay at home dad is a pathetic idea imo. how can a man send his wife to fight for bread and butter and while sitting pretty at home? i think it's disgraceful for a man to do that.

helping out at home is okay but these things have to be ingrained from a young age. Again it's the mother's responsibility to bring up sons who do help out in the home. father has a role to play as well but he has to be more of an example.

personally i hate ironing and doing the dishes. food is only good when it's cooked and ive not entered the kitchen for weeks.
however, that may change in the future if i live alone or get married (a pretty wife makes the kitchen an interesting place). Besides i can always seek some professional help with food, clothes and cleanliness of the room.

the way i see it, gender role in Islam is about leadership. The man is in-charge of the house and woman is the follower. This brings about unity in command. the buck stops at the man, always. he calls the shots and he is responsible for any mishaps. i know some would argue about equality and all that but such relationships are filled with arguments over everything from who put's the trash out to who sets the table. there can only be one boss, if there are two there will always be arguments.

money as we know is a powerful thing, perhaps this is why some men and Muslim scholars dont want women to work at all fearing that they might become rebellious to their husbands. Hence this confusion over 'fixing' gender roles. the solution is to spread the true message and practice of Islam rather than prohibit muslim women from working.

 

[Asja]

Assalamu allaicum wa raahmatullah wa barakatuhu

Baarak Allah feekh dear sister for sharing your feelings and advices with us. I hope Inshallah, I can say something good for this subject. SubhanAllah, Allah subhan we teala has created on diffrent way man and women, and Alhamdulillah women does not need to compete with man in anything to be stronger than him, but women is created diffrently from Allah. Women been shy it does not make her week, but strong. If women does not work, but she is dediacted to her home, husband and children it does not make her less value, but the same or even more value than the man works, because she is doing the most good and noble work.If women does not wish to mix with man, like Allah is asking of us, it does not make her opressed,but more honoued and respected. Allah subhan we teala has gave us diffrent roles, on which we will be asked from Allah on Day of Judgment.

From other side, Muslim women who wish to work,and for who is necceserry to work, is not opressed eaither Alhamdulillah but should also be honoured , because every society so as Islamic society needs women on work places, like doctors, teachers, traders. But this should aslo be organizaied in Islamic rules and by Sharaiah, where it would be less mixing of women and man.

Society should also be on the side of women, which will make easy to her doing her job, in the way that she would work less hours with more free time, taking in consideration that she needs more free time to accoamplish her role like mother, wife and house keeper.

Allah gave us blessings for creating us,and for making us to be Muslim women. In Islaam, there is nothing that opress us, because no people are like Allah. Allah is the keeper of our behaviour,and Allah wish only the best for us, because He knows the best His creations, and He guide us towerd good.

We should not say nothing in general, because it can hapen that women who is in home to be opressed, so as women who works to be opressed. And Allah subahn we teala knows the best.

May Allah bless all Muslim sisters, and give us honour on both worlds. :tti_sister:

Wa allaicumu salam wa raahmatullah wa baarkatuhu

 

[kayleigh]

stay at home dad is a pathetic idea imo. how can a man send his wife to fight for bread and butter and while sitting pretty at home? i think it's disgraceful for a man to do that.

Like I mentioned earlier, the reality is a lot of men can't make a living wage anymore (in the US at least). Jobs that were traditionally a man's field (construction, manufacturing, etc.) are gone and won't come back, and a lot of those men have no education and training for another kind of job. Statistically, men like that who go back to school for re-training start off behind academically and don't do so well even if they ever finish. My point was that the family dynamic is changing in the US out of necessity. If your wife has a stable career and makes more money and wants to work, isn't it kind of a stupid idea to make her stay at home while you bring in a paycheck that couldn't even begin to support a family, especially if it is a large one?

Some men like that kind of thing, anyway. When I was younger my neighbor's father stayed home to raise the kids while his wife worked. It worked for them because of the kinds of people they were. His wife had a high paying job, and he wanted to stay home and take care of the kids and study theology in his free time. I never considered him pathetic or less of a man because of it, and he did an excellent job of raising their children.

 

[Valerie]

i dont know about gender roles but women (Muslim women included) have always done more than the household duties. whether it be working in the fields or drawing water from wells. Moreover Muslim women have enjoyed extra benefits such as the owning business and property which rest of the women only got in the last century.

stay at home dad is a pathetic idea imo. how can a man send his wife to fight for bread and butter and while sitting pretty at home? i think it's disgraceful for a man to do that.

helping out at home is okay but these things have to be ingrained from a young age. Again it's the mother's responsibility to bring up sons who do help out in the home. father has a role to play as well but he has to be more of an example.

personally i hate ironing and doing the dishes. food is only good when it's cooked and ive not entered the kitchen for weeks.
however, that may change in the future if i live alone or get married (a pretty wife makes the kitchen an interesting place). Besides i can always seek some professional help with food, clothes and cleanliness of the room.

the way i see it, gender role in Islam is about leadership. The man is in-charge of the house and woman is the follower. This brings about unity in command. the buck stops at the man, always. he calls the shots and he is responsible for any mishaps. i know some would argue about equality and all that but such relationships are filled with arguments over everything from who put's the trash out to who sets the table. there can only be one boss, if there are two there will always be arguments.

money as we know is a powerful thing, perhaps this is why some men and Muslim scholars dont want women to work at all fearing that they might become rebellious to their husbands. Hence this confusion over 'fixing' gender roles. the solution is to spread the true message and practice of Islam rather than prohibit muslim women from working.

Wow. That's all I'll say. What I will say is that not all marriages are "leader and follower". I'm lucky and my husband is my best friend, we make decisions together. If all he wanted was someone to cook, clean and iron his clothes, he could hire someone. A marriage, a good one, is about far more than some 1950s tv show.

A stay at home dad isn't disgraceful. If the woman can make more money (ie doctor) to provide for the family, that's good. A strong marriage means that they communicate and there's no "power struggle." People have reasons for the woman being out in the workforce and the man being at home. It doesn't make him less of a man. A good father is a wonderful thing.

Good luck in your future marriage.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

Wow. That's all I'll say. What I will say is that not all marriages are "leader and follower". I'm lucky and my husband is my best friend, we make decisions together. If all he wanted was someone to cook, clean and iron his clothes, he could hire someone. A marriage, a good one, is about far more than some 1950s tv show.

:salam2:

I don't think arzafar was mentioning an absolute autocratic family. As, we come from pretty much the same culture (but across borders) I am pretty sure that is not what he meant.

The decisions inside the household are mostly influenced by the mother. It is needless to say, that if a man single-handedly makes all the decision, the decision would neither be a family decision, nor will it have much acceptance in the family. The muslim father is intelligent enough to understand that if he dictates and never consults, he will be only listened for a few days or weeks at most.

Usually issues such as where the child goes to school, what he eats, drinks, the kind of company he keeps are all thoroughly discussed in the family. A muslim family (unlike a western family) spend a lot of time together, discussing everything and anything that is happening in their lives. An average american household spends 38.5 minutes a week spending time together. In a muslim family, this number is far greater.

As a part of beauty of our religion, Islam also asks us to keep close relationships and honor our neighbors and relatives. Therefore, they are part of 'our extended family' as well. Therefore a muslim family also values the thoughts and ideas of the child's grandparents, child's elderly aunt and uncle. Wisdom and experience gained by the senior muslims in our community are valued highly. Muslims living in the locality are also sought for advices and counseling. A muslim is supposed to give advices to his fellow muslim as he would for his own family. We are a close community.

With regards to muslim mother or a wife, she is generally not looking for equality nor is she looking to influence each and every decision in the family. She is wise and knows which decisions she should influence and offer her opinions and advice on. In other decisions, she is happy to keep quiet and wait for her husband to take the decisions and follow him. However, if she feels the husband is making a mistake in a decision, she steps in and offers him an advice. Yet the husband makes the final call. This was what arzafar mentioned in his post (I think).

The husband makes the call and he is strong enough to bare the consequences. Women are protected from blame or insult, in the case if the decision leads to a bad or disastrous consequence. Many atimes, the husband also protects his wife and stands up for her, if her decision is criticized or mocked. He faces the society and tells them the blame is on him as he is the 'head of the family'. So blame him rather than his wife or young offspring.

And if you keep the company of muslim women, you will come to know that the 'face of the household' is the man but all the keys of functioning and management is with the wife. Muslim family are the most protective and closely knit family that you will find and often times the most successful.

Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi

 

[arzafar]

Wow. That's all I'll say. What I will say is that not all marriages are "leader and follower". I'm lucky and my husband is my best friend, we make decisions together. If all he wanted was someone to cook, clean and iron his clothes, he could hire someone. A marriage, a good one, is about far more than some 1950s tv show.

A stay at home dad isn't disgraceful. If the woman can make more money (ie doctor) to provide for the family, that's good. A strong marriage means that they communicate and there's no "power struggle." People have reasons for the woman being out in the workforce and the man being at home. It doesn't make him less of a man. A good father is a wonderful thing.

Good luck in your future marriage.

"my husband is my best friend, we make decisions together"

Interesting. so what happens when there is a disagreement. even amongst a group of friends there are those who almost always get listened to and there are those who rarely get their way but the two get along very well. in fact it has to be that way otherwise things cannot move on. one guy wants kfc the other wants pizza and cant have both.

there's no "power struggle."

exactly there is no power struggle if the man and woman know their responsibility. islam designates leadership to the man and thereby prevents any power struggle. power struggle will only take place when two are competing for leadership. No wonder the divorce rates in the west are so high and marriage counselling/coaching is a big business. i find it funny how some people have 'solved' this problem. they dont marry at all and just remain a couple instead. Reason is the same really, people hate responsibility and love freedom.

"A stay at home dad isn't disgraceful."

it isnt if there is a genuine reason to do that. He may even work from home. if a man cannot pull his own weight he is a disgrace imo anyway.

"It doesn't make him less of a man."

I knew this would come up even even though i havent referred to masculinity or femininity before this sentence. im not sure who is caught up more in gender roles here. Working outside/making money is not gender specific that was the what i explained (or tried to) in my previous post.

"If the woman can make more money (ie doctor) to provide for the family, that's good."

great but it's still the man's responsibility to provide for the family. In islam the man has no right over his wife's income. the wife may use it how she likes (in a halal way off course). If she does spend on her husband and family she will be rewarded but she is not obliged to spend anything on her husband and her family. she can even refuse if her husband asks for money. On the other hand she can still demand money from her husband for the family needs. It may seem like a contradiction but it's not. Moreover, she still has to obey her husband as long as what he asks is permissible in islam.

"Good luck in your future marriage."

thanks but no thanks. muslims dont believe in luck. in fact there is no such thing as 'luck' at all. it's just a superstitious idea that continues to live even after so much 'progress'. guess what the natural inclination of mankind will never change. people still love fairy tales (potter, rings, shreks and all that.)
bad luck - when things go awry.
good luck - when things go better than expected.

Muslims believe that everything has been planned by Allah (swt). so how about trying ones best every time, being patient, improving and trying again?

@ sister kay
yeah i guess that's more of love for luxuries no? nobody is really willing to downsize atm. so that's more of situation of compulsion. let's see whether the financial collapse leads to a commercial collapse (cost of production permanently higher than revenues). then people will be forced to downsize because businesses will ease to exist. surely that time is not far away because the current economic system is unsustainable.

off course people can do what they want but at the end of the day a muslim man has to try his best to fulfill the rights of his family granted to them by Allah (swt). top of that list is the right to be properly fed and clothed.

 

[Valerie]

"
Interesting. so what happens when there is a disagreement. even amongst a group of friends there are those who almost always get listened to and there are those who rarely get their way but the two get along very well. in fact it has to be that way otherwise things cannot move on. one guy wants kfc the other wants pizza and cant have both.

What happens? We compromise and work things through. Its part of being in a relationship. Sometimes you have to give in and go for the KFC, sometimes you get the pizza you want. If you always want your pizza, no compromise, hire a maid and don't share the food.

About "Luck" bad choice of words. I'll admit my fault on that one.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,


This was to be a fruitful thread. We were going to have discussions.

Brothers...chill out.

So...brothers...stop being so sexist. You guys need to relax.

Husbands and wives are best friends. The raiment thing.
Decisions are made with respect in mind. The family comes first.
We do not have to adhere to gender specific roles. Across time roles have been interchangeable.

And what good is a man if he can not cook and clean and wash the kids...he isn't. All those activities are good for bonding.

Go get married and come back and talk to me. You guys sound like the good ole boys.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

As-salaamu `alaykum

These discussions won't stop will they? And please, less "sexist" claims/cries; it seems every other point, whether valid Islamically or not is labeled as such these days... Perhaps a point is described as sexist while it is in fact from the religion, which we know is fully just and perfect.

Despite that, there are some interesting points mentioned within. But as a word of advise, not everything is how it seems. The world we live in is so strange, that it's often hard to apply certain texts to given situations, and Allaah knows best. That is why we have scholars, whose counsel we have been commanded to seek when necessary...

A man staying at home while the wife is working does sound completely strange. Yet, I know that in some places men do just that, sending their wives and children out to beg while they sit on their fat, lazy backsides. In a more noble sense though (i.e. in a genuine situation), it seems that this trend is a lot more popular in America than anywhere in the globe. The idea would seem completely strange in Europe and well, the whole world. That's my honest opinion and of course, I could be wrong.

But the sister Kayleigh seems to have made a genuine point. What if the man didn't bother with education and can't hold a good job, whereas a woman can easily? With regards to situations like this, we all have our opinions, but they're best to be discussed with reliable scholars (or their equivalent in the West), who understand the situation of your country and hear out your stories.

Islamic knowledge is inherited (from the learned), not plucked out the air (or Internet). Rulings are given, not found.

Was-salaam