Contradiction in people or contradiction in hadeth's?

[True_Sultan]

Salam,

I find this very disturbing...and so confusing. I had to create this thread because no one comments on the other. Anyway I have talked about the Unknown/unseen alot on this site..people here say that the "ghayb" means the unknown/unseen. Also they say that by definition the "ghayb" or in other words the unknown/unseen and its key's is beyond and undefinable. I'm like alright, but when i check some islamic sites such as:

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-266-3150.htm

which is apparently a trusted site, post hadith's stating that the ghayb is pretaining to future, past, location of afterlife, death and stuff...like things that fortune tellers try to tell us. So i want to know if it is a contradiction?

here is the hadeeth quote:

(The Keys of the Ghayb (unseen knowledge) are five, nobody knows them but Allah. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow except Allah; nobody knows what is in the womb except Allah; nobody knows when it will rain except Allah; no soul knows at what place he will die except Allah; and nobody knows when the (Final) Hour will begin except Allah.) Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said,

I'm thinking it maybe the contradiction of the people as a misunderstanding as the ghayb may not pretain to the beyond/unseen/unknown and stuff like that, but only pretains to the 5 items in surat luqman..and also logically how is knowledge "unseen"? sure it may be "unknown" as it is not known "yet'. so then how the hell is it undefinable? :angryred: :angryblue: :lol:?


Allah hafeez

 

[Waseem203]

Salam,

I find this very disturbing...and so confusing. I had to create this thread because no one comments on the other. Anyway I have talked about the Unknown/unseen alot on this site..people here say that the "ghayb" means the unknown/unseen. Also they say that by definition the "ghayb" or in other words the unknown/unseen and its key's is beyond and undefinable. I'm like alright, but when i check some islamic sites such as:

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-266-3150.htm

which is apparently a trusted site, post hadith's stating that the ghayb is pretaining to future, past, location of afterlife, death and stuff...like things that fortune tellers try to tell us. So i want to know if it is a contradiction?

here is the hadeeth quote:



I'm thinking it maybe the contradiction of the people as a misunderstanding as the ghayb may not pretain to the beyond/unseen/unknown and stuff like that, but only pretains to the 5 items in surat luqman..and also logically how is knowledge "unseen"? sure it may be "unknown" as it is not known "yet'. so then how the hell is it undefinable? :angryred: :angryblue: :lol:?


Allah hafeez

Brother, the reason no one is responding to your threads anymore is because the topic has been exhausted. I am unsure where the confusion over the unseen and unknown is coming from.They are essentially the same thing but phrased differently. If you cannot possibly KNOW about something, is it possible to see it (rhetorical question).

What those people said about the ghayb referring to the past, present and future means the unseen can be manifest in all three articles of time. We do not know what happened 900,000 BC, for example. Thus it is the ghayb. We do not know what exactly happens everyday throughout the world. Certainly, we do not what will happen tomorrow either. As for fortune tellers, they try and tell you your future or 'fortune', sometimes by having jinn listen to the conversations of angels. Before you ask "how come the angels know the unseen then"?; you should realize that the unseen is a relative thing. Do you know what happened at my school today? No, but I do. It is the Unseen to you, but not to me. To an angel, heaven is not the unseen because they have witnessed it.

Please do not complicate your religion or disturb yourself. The Prophet forbade us from occupying ourselves with these thorny questions. We really will not be able to grasp the ghayb in our lifetime so quit worrying about what it could possibly mean.

But here is a simple way to think of the ghayb; if we have absolutely no way of knowing about something, or comprehending it, then it is the unseen. We know angels exist, but we don't know their nature and how they act. We know Allah exists, but there is none like unto him. Anything you may imagine God to be is not him. God is beyond our scope of understanding.

Sorry if I came off as harsh anywhere in this post, but I'm just trying to tell you that you shouldn't confuse yourself with thoughts that really wont get you anywhere.

 

[True_Sultan]

Brother, the reason no one is responding to your threads anymore is because the topic has been exhausted. I am unsure where the confusion over the unseen and unknown is coming from.They are essentially the same thing but phrased differently. If you cannot possibly KNOW about something, is it possible to see it (rhetorical question).

What those people said about the ghayb referring to the past, present and future means the unseen can be manifest in all three articles of time. We do not know what happened 900,000 BC, for example. Thus it is the ghayb. We do not know what exactly happens everyday throughout the world. Certainly, we do not what will happen tomorrow either. As for fortune tellers, they try and tell you your future or 'fortune', sometimes by having jinn listen to the conversations of angels. Before you ask "how come the angels know the unseen then"?; you should realize that the unseen is a relative thing. Do you know what happened at my school today? No, but I do. It is the Unseen to you, but not to me. To an angel, heaven is not the unseen because they have witnessed it.

Please do not complicate your religion or disturb yourself. The Prophet forbade us from occupying ourselves with these thorny questions. We really will not be able to grasp the ghayb in our lifetime so quit worrying about what it could possibly mean.

But here is a simple way to think of the ghayb; if we have absolutely no way of knowing about something, or comprehending it, then it is the unseen. We know angels exist, but we don't know their nature and how they act. We know Allah exists, but there is none like unto him. Anything you may imagine God to be is not him. God is beyond our scope of understanding.

Sorry if I came off as harsh anywhere in this post, but I'm just trying to tell you that you shouldn't confuse yourself with thoughts that really wont get you anywhere.

Interesting indeed..maybe the unknown/unseen/beyond/*shudder* type of thing in my aspiration is not the ghayb at all...the ghayb is totally different. Also what is time :lol: can you answer it? No its unknown...but its not ghayb..that translation states that the ghayb is something not perceived by the senses, but we can feel time

 

[Waseem203]

Yes, I think you are starting to understand it now. You said you wanted to be an aerospace engineer, right? Why would it be the ghayb to go into space and learn about it? The unseen is exactly that, something we are clueless about and as you said, cannot perceive. I believe that time is not the unknown because we can measure, sense and understand it.

 

[True_Sultan]

Yes, I think you are starting to understand it now. You said you wanted to be an aerospace engineer, right? Why would it be the ghayb to go into space and learn about it? The unseen is exactly that, something we are clueless about and as you said, cannot perceive. I believe that time is not the unknown because we can measure, sense and understand it.

hmm yeah...but not all the ghayb is unperceptive....at some point. Like my aspiration is about the unknown/unseen/beyond/infinite/absolute type of thing...is that not ghayb? I mean i could experience it. Yeah but how are the 5 items in surat laqmum not percievable? I mean we may be able to uncover the past, and such.

 

[Waseem203]

Infinite and unknown are not the same thing. The universe is infinite in size but we know about it and exist in it. Also, remember what I said about the ghayb being a relative thing. If we discover something in the past, say an ancient manuscript of the Torah we have never seen before in 2010, someone that died in 2009 would not know about it. It is the unseen to them. Likewise, as we delve deeper and deeper into the universe, less and less become known as the unseen.

So if you want to become an astronaut and want to visit, say the middle of the universe and it is not yet discovered, it is the unseen. If you manage to do it, it is no longer the unseen. If you cannot do it, it will remain the unseen.

 

[True_Sultan]

Infinite and unknown are not the same thing. The universe is infinite in size but we know about it and exist in it. Also, remember what I said about the ghayb being a relative thing. If we discover something in the past, say an ancient manuscript of the Torah we have never seen before in 2010, someone that died in 2009 would not know about it. It is the unseen to them. Likewise, as we delv deeper and deeper into the universe, less and less become known as the unseen.

So if you want to become an astronaut and want to visit, say the middle of the universe and it is not yet discovered, it is the unseen. If you manage to do it, it is no longer the unseen. If you cannot do it, it will remain the unseen.

yeah its logical progression but i mean what does it mean by the unknown/unseen being infinite? boundless? absolute? Like the keys to the unknown which is only with Allah? I believe one brother said that we humans may be able to experience 1 fragment or portion of it, even though our scope is finite. what about that? Also the universe is finite, it feels infinite because of the spacetime curvature, there is no exit point, in order to have that, one needs to overcome all laws of physics (be it classical, quantum or abstract)

well yeah it'll be unseen for all, accept me

 

[Waseem203]

As I said, infinite is not synanomous with unknown. Because the keys to the unknown are with God only, our scope of understanding cannot reach them. Therefore, we cannot describe them with terms like infinite, absolute or boundless.

 

[True_Sultan]

As I said, infinite is not synanomous with unknown. Because the keys to the unknown are with God only, our scope of understanding cannot reach them. Therefore, we cannot describe them with terms like infinite, absolute or boundless.

but aren't the words abstract in itself? also yeah there only with God. Also how does one justify that the keys are the 5 items in surat luqman..when God is not bound by time or any physical laws? Also I mean after though's events happen, they will be known right as unknown is dependent on the perceived..so if the unknown and its keys are only with Allah and as u said it is unpercievable...so in turn couldn't it be infinite as we are only finite?

 

[Aapa]

Asalaam walaikum,,

Brother...Faith is abstract. It is the Great Leap into the Unknown. Trust is the sister of Faith. And Allah has Commanded us to Trust Him. When He Tells us not to concern ourselves with something it is His Will. He Manifests for Us that which He Wills.

Event Horizon is an excellent movie. It captures why somethings need to be left alone. It takes place on a spaceship. That might motivate you to watch it. Reflect on the warnings we have been blessed in the Quran.

 

[True_Sultan]

Asalaam walaikum,,

Brother...Faith is abstract. It is the Great Leap into the Unknown. Trust is the sister of Faith. And Allah has Commanded us to Trust Him. When He Tells us not to concern ourselves with something it is His Will. He Manifests for Us that which He Wills.

Event Horizon is an excellent movie. It captures why somethings need to be left alone. It takes place on a spaceship. That might motivate you to watch it. Reflect on the warnings we have been blessed in the Quran.

Salam Sister,

A couple of things:

1). Who says I don't trust Allah? He is like the lord, friend and the one who helps me

2). I haven't see anywhere in the quran that Allah directly says don't find the unknown. Yes he says that the keys are with him, and none cannot know but he..but he is using the plural..."keys". I mean you have to admit, there are some unknowns that we as a human race can obtain...but it may take time. Also i believe since the keys are with him...we as a finite creation (well all creation is finite) can't comphrehend all of the infinite/boundless/absolute/unlimited/*shudder* unknown/unseen/enigma such as the keys as a whole...but we may be able to obtain parts of it...by Allah's will. That's how I anayzed it..my only confusion was how can the unknown/unseen only be the 5 items in surat luqmam? As they can be found...I mean sure they are unknown but not all....I'm just thinking maybe the unknown/unseen/enigma thing I'm talking about in the above is not really the ghayb

3). Event horizon eh? I'll torrent that

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Brother..I never said you did not Trust Allah. Forgive me.

There are some thing that we do not need to know. The moment of death. I would not be able to move if I knew the moment of death. What a blessing we do not know. We have a chance of asking for forgiveness over and over again.

 

[Asja]

Assalmau allaicum wa raahmatullah wa baarakatuhu

Dear brother, keys of ghayb are belonging to Allah only SubhanAllah. Allah The Most Greatest is unseen, and we can not see Him, so that is ghayb for us. Jannah is ghayb, Jahannam is ghayb, life after death is ghayb.

That is why Allah subhan we teala sais: "Say [O Prophet]: “It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as Allah may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception (al Ghaib), abundant good fortune would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me.
I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe.”
Surah Al A'raf, 188"

Say: “None in the heavens or on earth knows the hidden reality (al Ghaib) [of anything that exists: none knows it] except Allah.” And neither can they [who are living] perceive when they shall be raised from the dead.
Surah An Naml, 65

Allah Words are truth, and they should be understandable to us Inshallah. :tti_sister:

May Allah guide us all.

 

[True_Sultan]

Assalaam walaikum,

Brother..I never said you did not Trust Allah. Forgive me.

There are some thing that we do not need to know. The moment of death. I would not be able to move if I knew the moment of death. What a blessing we do not know. We have a chance of asking for forgiveness over and over again.

Assalmau allaicum wa raahmatullah wa baarakatuhu

Dear brother, keys of ghayb are belonging to Allah only SubhanAllah. Allah The Most Greatest is unseen, and we can not see Him, so that is ghayb for us. Jannah is ghayb, Jahannam is ghayb, life after death is ghayb.

That is why Allah subhan we teala sais: "Say [O Prophet]: “It is not within my power to bring benefit to, or avert harm from, myself, except as Allah may please. And if I knew that which is beyond the reach of human perception (al Ghaib), abundant good fortune would surely have fallen to my lot, and no evil would ever have touched me.
I am nothing but a warner, and a herald of glad tidings unto people who will believe.”
Surah Al A'raf, 188"

Say: “None in the heavens or on earth knows the hidden reality (al Ghaib) [of anything that exists: none knows it] except Allah.” And neither can they [who are living] perceive when they shall be raised from the dead.
Surah An Naml, 65

Allah Words are truth, and they should be understandable to us Inshallah. :tti_sister:

May Allah guide us all.

Salam, I agree with both you sisters,

Maybe what I'm trying to speak of or what my aspiration/inspirations/dreams pretain to is not ghayb in the sense like what we are taught..maybe its different :gah: so confusing and mind consuming.

Also to Sister Asja: heaven, hell and afterlife sure is unseen, not unknown, also it isn't unseen/unknown in the absolute sense as we will see them after the day of judgment, so they are definable, I just don't understand how people can say that the ghayb is the unseen and the unknown...also the keys to the unseen/unknown are only with Allah and none can know them, so in other words none can know them or obtain all of them (there beyond/infinite/boundless/*shudders*)..so how can all these "keys" pertain to only 5 things.. :lol:

 

[revert2007]

Salam, I agree with both you sisters,

Maybe what I'm trying to speak of or what my aspiration/inspirations/dreams pretain to is not ghayb in the sense like what we are taught..maybe its different :gah: so confusing and mind consuming.

Also to Sister Asja: heaven, hell and afterlife sure is unseen, not unknown, also it isn't unseen/unknown in the absolute sense as we will see them after the day of judgment, so they are definable, I just don't understand how people can say that the ghayb is the unseen and the unknown...also the keys to the unseen/unknown are only with Allah and none can know them, so in other words none can know them or obtain all of them (there beyond/infinite/boundless/*shudders*)..so how can all these "keys" pertain to only 5 things.. :lol:

Assalamualikum.

Allah si unseen and unknown right yet we will see Him IN Jannah in sha Allah(may we be among thosee people).

When it si said unseen or ghaib it means in dunay you never know them.Just like in Quran there are many surahs that you do not know the exact answer such as in Surah Khaf...how many of them?or who Zulqarnain was ?but does that really matters?

it depends on how you interprate Islamic terms.never ever use Western knowledge to interprate Islamic terms.It doens't work.


Why confuse your mind when it really doesn't matter at all.

 

[queenislam]

Allah swt Knows Best!

, I just don't understand how people can say that the ghayb is the unseen and the unknown...also the keys to the unseen/unknown are only with Allah and none can know them, so in other words none can know them or obtain all of them (there beyond/infinite/boundless/*shudders*)..so how can all these "keys" pertain to only 5 things.. :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:salam2:

ALLAH KNOWS BEST!
I agree with this statement qoute that the ghayb is the unseen and the unknown...also the keys to the unseen/unknown are only with Allah and none can know them!

Allah swt is the know all and Allah swt knows best!

Dearest brother,
Something like this one can see only in afterlife and only by the will of Allah swt and the yakiin and believe has to be there!

For example:
The Isra miraj
of the prophet Muhammad s.aw to heaven meeting Allah swt summon regarding solah(al solat) prayer.

Al-Isra 1/3---Sheik Abdul Rahman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knyMFdEB_1o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6-_zH2fo8

This is iman and to accept it!And one must accept this not otherwise because this is require!

See the 6 pillar of iman.
The Six Pillars of Iman

Belief in Allah,

Belief in the malaekah (angels)

Belief in the kitab kitab (Islam holy books)

Belief in the Rasul rasul (commissioned Messengers (peace be upon them).

Belief in the resurrection and the events of Qiyamah.

Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad.

This has to be believe and can never say no and no compromise!

Because if any of the pillar is to be left out that one has no iman!

Some thing of which you did not know leave it to Allah swt the almighty and knows all!
Because Allah swt is the knows all and Allah swt knows best!

~May Allah swt help you brother~Amin!

And

May Allah swt shower blesses upon all muslim~Amin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpZKfebHyc

~Happy the Holy Month of Rajab.
Thank you,
Take Care!

~Wasaalam

 

[True_Sultan]

ummm?

Assalamualikum.

Allah si unseen and unknown right yet we will see Him IN Jannah in sha Allah(may we be among thosee people).

When it si said unseen or ghaib it means in dunay you never know them.Just like in Quran there are many surahs that you do not know the exact answer such as in Surah Khaf...how many of them?or who Zulqarnain was ?but does that really matters?

it depends on how you interprate Islamic terms.never ever use Western knowledge to interprate Islamic terms.It doens't work.


Why confuse your mind when it really doesn't matter at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:salam2:

ALLAH KNOWS BEST!
I agree with this statement qoute that the ghayb is the unseen and the unknown...also the keys to the unseen/unknown are only with Allah and none can know them!

Allah swt is the know all and Allah swt knows best!

Dearest brother,
Something like this one can see only in afterlife and only by the will of Allah swt and the yakiin and believe has to be there!

For example:
The Isra miraj
of the prophet Muhammad s.aw to heaven meeting Allah swt summon regarding solah(al solat) prayer.

Al-Isra 1/3---Sheik Abdul Rahman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knyMFdEB_1o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6-_zH2fo8

This is iman and to accept it!And one must accept this not otherwise because this is require!

See the 6 pillar of iman.
The Six Pillars of Iman

Belief in Allah,

Belief in the malaekah (angels)

Belief in the kitab kitab (Islam holy books)

Belief in the Rasul rasul (commissioned Messengers (peace be upon them).

Belief in the resurrection and the events of Qiyamah.

Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad.

This has to be believe and can never say no and no compromise!

Because if any of the pillar is to be left out that one has no iman!

Some thing of which you did not know leave it to Allah swt the almighty and knows all!
Because Allah swt is the knows all and Allah swt knows best!

~May Allah swt help you brother~Amin!

And

May Allah swt shower blesses upon all muslim~Amin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpZKfebHyc

~Happy the Holy Month of Rajab.
Thank you,
Take Care!

~Wasaalam

Salam sisters,

A couple of things:

1). You guys had so many spelling error's it was hard to understand first.
2). Where in all my post did u get that I do not have imam and such?
3). I agree with bot you, the ghayb is only ghayb in this duniya..so its not beyond and infinte. So you guys contradicted yourself...the keys therefore cannot be the 5 items stated in surat luqman, because we will know them and see them in the afterlife. Also the keys to the ghayb (if its the 5 items) are not only none to Allah, it is know to his creation then...because angels can see everything...so your statement contradicts the quran (which it shouldn't astagfrullah) So i don't know.
4). Im pretty sure mind consuming, confusing, aspiration/inspiration/dream for the unknown/unseen/enigma/absolute/infinte/beyond/limitless/boundless/*shudders* type of thing.
5). Do we have to go back in history..there is no such term as western or eastern language, all languages evolved from 1 original language and source of communication.




:shymuslima1:
:muslim_child:

 

[Abu Talib]

You need some aspirin

 

[True_Sultan]

You need some aspirin

:jumpclap:

Is there something wrong with what I said? XD

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Brother, I enjoy your questions. You are innocent in your search for your answers.

First watch my movie. I know it is a movie.

Secondly, there are great Muslim minds of the past that can answer your questions. My favorite is Imam Ghazali. His logic explains our position is this life. He helps us to understand the flaws in the works of Scorates and Aristotle.

You are in the area of subjectivity meeting with objectivity. There is a marriage of the two to live out a normal Islamic life. You can not be an object occuping space and look at yourself from another dimension. But you taking up that space does influence the world (life-space ) around you.

You know the cat becomes the wave kind of thing. Me, I like raindrops merging with other raindrops to become one ocean.

And be polite to the sisters, we all have grammatical errors.. I can never get spell check to work on this site. We are interested in the essence.