What would be the main reason to become a muslim?

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Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
Hello DadManG!

I got your point. I tried to find a way to convince my inquisitive mind that your explanation is sensible, satisfactory and logical, but unfortuantely i failed.

You see, if God wanted us to be perfect, he would have created us so.

He did create such beings who never break HIS laws and worship HIM every passing moment. Those beings are called Angels.

Human being on the other hand is created differently. He has been given the free will and choice. He has also been shown right and wrong by two means.

1- by his logic and his inner conscience
2- by sending messengers and books

He gave us the choice to follow his orders no matter what challenges we have to face as Jesus (peace be upon him) did or follow our desires and temptations and boserve no limits. He has also made it clear to us what each of them leads to.

It is upto us to choose the way of the devil or the way of the Lord.

HE doesn't want us to be perfect. The real perfect ONE IS HE, the almighty. HE wants us to try. We should not excuse ourselves from this (try) by putting all the burden of punishment on someone else's shoulders and allow ourselves to do whatever pleases us.

I hope i made some sense.

Peace
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
I forgot to mention one important point.

God is extremely merciful. He gave us perfect shape which we didn't ask for. He provided us with all our needs and made the earth a perfect place for our dwelling.

He decorated the earth with varying beauties so that we always have something new to discover and has blessed us with a creative mind.
The examples of his mercy are endless.

He does forgive humans for breaking HIS laws IF HE WILLS, but he surely doesn't forgive the rights of another human.

If you deprive another human of his/her life for example, you will be held accountable for that on the day of judgement and will have to pay for it.

Thanks for reading my replies.

Peace
 

Amir_of_spain

Junior Member
Hello again, i will attempt some brief responses....

With the help of God's Law, I have discovered that I have sinned against God, I was His enemy, But I also discovered that He sent Jesus, His own Son, to pay my penalty (death). I am so grateful to God for this, I will do anything for Him. (Repentance).

As we already mentioned, to erase our sins we need to make repencetance to almighty god, and this includes staying away from that sin(s), avoiding them, having remorse for commiting it whilst also being more active in doing good deeds, worship etc. Also we already mentioned that we dont believe god punishes other people or person(s) for crimes/sins that we have done.

It seems that a muslim is taught that he can just try to live a "good" life and maybe he will go to paradise. But, Jesus tells us that it's not about being good enough, it's about being PERFECT. And since we CANNOT be perfect on our own, we need the Life and death of Jesus (who is perfect) as a substitution of ours.

In islamic belief, the path to paradise is simply that we believe/testify that none has the right to be worshipped except god almighty alone, and to testify muhammad is his last messenger. This belief, and the actions behind this testiment of faith is what we believe as the path to paradise. Those are the only 2 requirements that is asked from entire mankind to be saved', (obviously the belief has to be backed up with actions ie good deeds).

Jesus tells us that it's not about being good enough, it's about being PERFECT. And since we CANNOT be perfect on our own, we need the Life and death of Jesus (who is perfect) as a substitution of ours.

We dont believe god is asking is you/us to be perfect, to be saints, god isn’t asking us to be perfect, saints, because he knows you are not perfect, he created us with weaknesses, you need to go to the toilet, you are never going to stop needing to go to the toilet, you need to breathe, you need to eat, you need to drink. And believing that someone died for our sins is not going to make you perfect. Also we do not believe jesus was killed or even was crucified, instead he was saved by allah and taken into the heavens where he will return ie the 2nd coming.

So to recap God almighty does not call himself the most merciful, the most forgiving for nothing, we do sins because we are imperfect, thats the way we have been created, and god almighty doesnt require others' to be killed or punished in order to erase sins, god almighty is not limited or deficient in mercy and forgiveness, rather his mercy is greater than his wrath.
 

DadManG

Junior Member
HE doesn't want us to be perfect. The real perfect ONE IS HE, the almighty.

I must believe the bible. Jesus says, Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Thank You
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
Then i would be interested to know only 1 person among several billions to be PERFECT, in the past or present.
 

DadManG

Junior Member
We dont believe god is asking is you/us to be perfect, to be saints, god isn’t asking us to be perfect, saints, because he knows you are not perfect, he created us with weaknesses, you need to go to the toilet, you are never going to stop needing to go to the toilet, you need to breathe, you need to eat, you need to drink.

the definition of being perfect is "moral excellence". The "weaknesses" you mentioned are not sins. Does a muslim believe that he can make up for his sins.
Imagine you are in a court of law. You are guilty of murder, and the judge is about to pass sentence. He asks you if there is anything you want to say. You say to the judge, "Judge, I am sorry, and I will try very hard to not murder again, in fact I will be sure to always help little, old ladies across the street". The judge will say to you, "You should be sorry, but any good you may do now has nothing to do with the deed you already did." If the judge is a good judge, he must punish the lawbreaker.

Now, what if, in your courtroom, just before the judge passes sentence, someone whom you don't even know walks into your courtroom and says, "Judge, I want to pay for Amir_of_spain's crime. The judge could then say to you, "Amir_of_spain, you are free to go".
This is exactly what Jesus, God's Son did. He was the one who lived the perfect life, didn't deserve to die, but offered Himself for your and my crime of breaking God's Law.

Peace
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
I thought you believed that he is the son of God and not human.

We were talking about us humans.
 

Bawar

Struggling2Surrender
first you said

DadManG: If the judge is a good judge, he must punish the lawbreaker

and then you said

The judge could then say to you, "Amir_of_spain, you are free to go".
This is exactly what Jesus, God's Son did. He was the one who lived the perfect life, didn't deserve to die, but offered Himself for your and my crime of breaking God's Law.

hmmm now it is hard to see is it a good judge or a bad judge.

Also, don't you think the judge would be worried if he lets the real criminal go free, he may kill again?
 

abou haytam

Junior Member
Hi;

Thank you for your questions and your interest to islam.I think my brothers and sisters are trying their best to resonse you. I would like to quot some verse from the Qoran. So i hope you have an idea what is about in Qoran and also it confirme what my brothers and sisters are trying to explain.

God is Allah in arabic, God who created adam and eve and God of abraham and all other prophet (peace be upon them ).

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

'' Say: He is Allah the One and Only; (1) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; (2) He begetteth, not nor is He begotten; (3) And there is none like unto Him. (4)'' [112-Al-Ikhlas]

'' Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. (16) She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (17) She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." (18) He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son." (19) She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (20) He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed." (21) So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. (22) And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (23) But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-free): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; (24) "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. (25) "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' " (26) At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! (27) "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (28) But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29) He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; (30) "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (31) "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (32) "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (33) Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. (34) It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it "Be", and it is. (35) Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. (36) But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a momentous Day! (37)'' [19-Maryam]

''O ye who believe! be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary, to the Disciples "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples "We are Allah's helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. (14)'' [61:14-As-saff]



'' Then will Allah say: "O Jesus, the son of Mary! recount my favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: `This is nothing but evident magic'. (110) "And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said `We have faith and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'." (111) Behold! the Disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith." (112) They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle. (113) Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a Table set (with viands), that there may be for us― for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs). (114) Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: but if any of you after that resisteth faith I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples. (115) And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (116) "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say: to wit, `Worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me upThou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things. (117) "If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power the Wise. (118)''[5-Al-maeda]

''We sent Noah to his People (with the Command): "Do thou warn thy people before there comes to them a grievous Penalty." (1) He said: "O my People! I am to you a Warner, clear and open: (2) "That ye should worship Allah, fear Him and obey me: (3) "So He may forgive you your sins and give you respite for a stated Term: for when the Term given by Allah is accomplished, it cannot be put forward: if ye only knew." (4)'' [71-Nooh]

''Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian, but he was true in faith and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islam) and he joined not gods with Allah. (67) Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham are those who follow him as are also this Prophet and those who believe; and Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.(68) ''[3-Al-E-Imran]


'' Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (53) "Turn ye to your Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped. (54) "And follow the Best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you of a sudden, while ye perceive not!-- (55) "Lest the soul should (then) say: Ah! woe is me!― In that I neglected (my Duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'― (56) "Or (lest) it should say: `If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'― (57) "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the Penalty: `If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!' (58) "(The reply will be) `Nay but there came to thee My signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith!' " (59) On the Day of Judgement wilt thou see those who told lies against Allah;― their faces will be turned black; is there not in Hell an abode for the Haughty? (60) But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation: no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve. (61) Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs. (62)'' [39-Az-zumar]


[/CENTER]
 

DadManG

Junior Member
Wonderful questions.
Yes, I can see the confusion in what I said. I didn't want to say that only the lawbreaker could pay the fine. But wanted to say that a fine/penalty MUST be paid.


Bawar, how do you think you would respond if you were in that courtroom, guilty of a crime worthy of death. And then someone offered to pay your fine. Do you think you could go right out and commit the crime again? Would you not be so grateful to that one that paid your fine. You would perhaps want to live your life for that one, instead of selfishly live your own.

Thanks
 

palestine

Servant of Allah
hi

The bible teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Not 50/50.

Thank You


Allah is perfect in everyway. here you are saying that jesus was 100% god, at the same time 100% human. man needs to rest and sleep and such, so if god was a man then our world would collapse. God almighty does not need to rest like man. and if Jesus WAS GOD, then why is that you use pass tense for him, if he was truly god. Allah is our lord, he was and always will be. but Jesus was a prophet of Allah. If you are here to try and convert some muslims to your religion, then let me just tell you now that you're wasting your time man. You're being hard headed and stubborn and yet your information contradicts one another. so please try and understand that Jesus never was and never will be God. he is a man whom Allah created and he was born and given birth to by a woman. who's name is Mary. don't be offended but i'm just saying open your eyes and ears to the truth rather than continiously arguing.
 

dianek

Junior Member
To All,
On what basis can Allah send some to paradise and others to hell? How does he exercise justice?

By the way in which one lead his life. Were they pious? Were they modest? Did they care for their fellow man? Did they commit sins and repent without repeating the sin? Like Catholics, they believe that they can commit sin but then go and confess to a man in a box and then their sin is forgiven, then they go right out and do it again. God looks at what you do in your life and where your heart was. Did you perform your prayers? Did you obey his law? Did you know DadManG that those muslims that try so hard to be good muslims may still fall short of Heaven? Everyone will have to pay to some extent for their misdeeds.....as I understand, and I am still learning.....I might have to do some "time" in Hell before being allowed into heaven as payment for my sins.......but as such, God forgives those whom he choses.

For example, you have a good job but would like to move up in the company, don't you have to work your way up? You can't get benefits from another employees deeds to ascend you up the ladder can you? You have to be worthy in your own right. And even as a Christian, if Jesus died for your sins and you were baptized in His name, then sometime down the road you commit adultery or other sin........you mean to tell me it doesn't matter because you were baptized? As a Christian I struggled with that......it didn't make sense.....

You mentioned in one post that adultery is = to lust.......which is sinful. As it is in Islam, this is why we are told to cover ourselves (not to mean face etc, that is cultural or personal choices). Like in the Bible, God said that women should cover their heads. This is to prevent them from being objects and lusted after. God tells man to lower his gaze and fast often to prevent worldly desires from leading them astray. And despite what the media may have you believing, if you kill one of mankind in Islam it is as if you killed all of humanity. Please don't believe all that the media portrays, there is a movement by the government to make us afraid of what we don't know.

In islam, you are to obstain from alcohol. Why? Look at how many sins are committed by those who drink, think of the divorce rate, the death due to this "weakness"............Islam is logical and incorporates all of the previous laws and books from God through all prophets.

Look at how here in America we have to keep raising the bar for shock value in movies, commercials and music. We have become so desensitized to the filth that surrounds us......we are being trained to accept it as normal......and so we are being led to sin happily and smiling because we are just like everyone else. In Islam, muslims find these same things unacceptable and they stand up for what they believe.

Sorry for the long post.
 

Optimist

قل هو الله أحد
Can I suggest that we limit the number of contributors to this thread say to 3, DadManG and two others ? I'd suggest one convert brother/sister who have studied both Islam & Christianity and another "long term Muslim".

We can have another thread for commentary if others wish to contribute. I have found this method useful and it is used in other forums.

I'm finding it difficult to follow the dialogue as it is.

All the best.
 

Bluegazer

Junior Member
Hello DadManG,


You wrote the following in post #24:

I must believe the bible. Jesus says, Mat 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


We Muslims believe that God Almighty is perfect.


However, what you've quoted [Mat 5:48] seems to contradict other Biblical verses.


I have already posted some verses of Genesis in my post #19. I'll post them again:

When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."

Genesis 6:5-7 [New American Bible]


There are other verses in the Bible that contain such negative attributes about God Almighty, such as the following:

Between me and the Israelites it is to be an everlasting token; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day he rested at his ease."

Exodus 31:17 [New American Bible]


The King James Version translated the same verse as follows:

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


And the New American Standard Bible translated the same verse as follows:

It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."



The question is, how does the Christian belief the God Almighty is perfect fit in with Biblical verses that state that His heart grieved for creating humans, that He was sorry He created humans, and that He rested on the seventh day "at his ease" or was "refreshed" on that seventh day?


I seek refuge with God Almighty from ascribing any such attributes to Him. He is truly perfect.


Doesn't all these descriptions in the Old Testament contradict what Mat 5:48 says?


Regards,

Bluegazer
 

um amatallah

Junior Member
peace be with you.
i was a catholic and became a muslim because i was trying to please God.I mean, God want us to worship Him,and is the minimum we can do after all He does for us,and worship Him in a very simple way.This is in all scriptures.I think islam is the simplest and easiest way to get near to God.
May God guide you,ameen
 

DadManG

Junior Member
palestine, thank you for your response. I apologize for my inability in giving my answers, and for causing confusing. There is alot for me to try to respond to.

I guess one major place of difference would be our belief of who Jesus was/is. Am I correct in saying that the evidence for your belief is the Quran. Would you except any other evidence that is earlier/older than the Quran? Can you tell me when the Quran was written?

Thank You
 
Can I suggest that we limit the number of contributors to this thread say to 3, DadManG and two others ? I'd suggest one convert brother/sister who have studied both Islam & Christianity and another "long term Muslim".

We can have another thread for commentary if others wish to contribute. I have found this method useful and it is used in other forums.

I'm finding it difficult to follow the dialogue as it is.

All the best.

I agree there is to much going on

wa alaikum aslaam
 
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