Are Muslims really not allowed to have Non Muslim Friends ?

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by truthseeker63, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Cariad
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    Yes I am confused. Jews and Christians worship the One true God as muslims also claim to worship.. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You think God somehow does not know this fact!! So we have believers ALL who worship the One True God, who has no associates or partners.. and we have disbelievers those who do not believe in God or choose to worship many gods (pagans). You ask me to believe God wishes for division between those who believe in Him, love Him and worship Him? No... Sorry I do not see that. Why would a loving God want such strife for those who love Him and worship Him alone. It does not make sense. Do not put scholars opinions over logic and common sense when it comes to God. God is more important than any religion, God is above and beyond all religion.
  2. Cariad
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    Also Mustafa _bepari .. Why does God allow muslim men to marry women of the book, jews and Christians if not allowing the friendship between them? Surely that makes for disaster, because for a marriage to be right before God it has to have love, for love to grow there surely has to be friendship. Or all you have is something dead and hollow. :(
  3. a_stranger
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    Thank you dear friend for your message , I shall try to make myself more clear :

    Quran starts with hearts, souls, minds:

    First Quran plants a firm belief in The most merciful loving creator ,who created us out of nothing . His signs are all around us ( the whole creation . Quran directs mind to ponder and think in all that is around then feel the power ,the greatness , love, the glory of Allah in all that is around ( heavens, earth, sun , moon , humans animals.........etc) . Quran tells people about their lord and his most perfect beautiful attributes that we see their meanings and effects in all that is around us :he is all knowing ,all hearing , Allah is with us in every moment of our life. This life is a test ,we are going to enjoy the fruits of our sincere faith and good work after death . We should love the one who gave us everything the most love with most humility : this is the meaning of worship in Islam ( it is the starting point).


    ((7. Have you not seen that Allah ( the one true God) knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three, but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), not of less than that or more, but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be; and afterwards on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they did. Verily, Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

    Quran 58))


    Then to come closer to Allah :the one creator of all we should purify our selves and cut the roots of evil , hate, envoy , greed , lusts By knowing that Allah doesn't like those characters and plant the opposite of them .

    Knowing and feeling the shortness of our life help us to erase griefs and sorrows of this life and full hearts with love of our creator, hope in his endless mercy and compassion.

    When hearts are full with awe and unlimited glory of Allah this will make heart remember him and glorify Allah day and night free hearts from illness, full them with light of Allah , pray (heart and body )with love and humbleness .

    These steps following the teachings of the prophet will help us to rise in the world of morals , spirits and material life. Praying five times with a heart knowing whom we are praying to help us to purify our souls and wash them with heavenly cure . I know many muslems miss many virtues ( among myself) : it is because we are lazy in following the spiritual , moral , practical path of Islam . It needs sincere efforts , deep purity and complete truthfulness . Still we should try and struggle to achieve them : the fruits is very promising near Allah .

    With regards
  4. Cariad
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    Bible offers the same guidance for life. To be close to God. It's easy thing to love God, and when you do it's easy to live your life for Him. Everything else then falls into place like peices of jigsaw. I don't know why Islam makes it so complicated with so many rules. It confuses me. Sorry I know some will be offended at my words but I speak from my heart.

    Maybe is different I see Bible as a book for guidance. I'm not sure the power is in the Book. But it is in the message the book contains. That's Yeshua .. I'm not sure I explain it well or that you can understand what I mean
  5. saif
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    Assalamu alaikum

    MashaAllah, you are absolutely correct. This is a paradox. Living in paradoxes is a disgrace to human intellect. People who are forbidding any socialization with people of other faiths are "following nothing but the conjecture". They are generalizing the verses meant for those people of the book, who were the direct addressees of the Prophet and the Prophet had himself done Itmaam-al-hujjah on them. Unfortunately, there is a series of such generalizations. They generalize and think, they have the right to ask for Jizziah from all people of the book. They generalize and think, they have the right to kill all mushrikeen or at least those living in the land, which they consider to be "daar al islam". They generalize and think, they have the right to kill all those, who peacefully convert from Islam to another religion.

    Mark my words. They are following nothing but the conjectures. On the day of judgement, they will have to pay for their dhulm. In this world, they will remain the most unwanted, unloved and lowest of all human beings. InshaAllah.

    Wassalamu alaikum
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  6. a_stranger
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    Allah most glorified forbid any kind of oppression and wrongdoings it is stated clearly in Quran :

    (8) 8 - God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.

    (9) 9 - God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

    Surat Al Mumtahina( translation of the meanings of Quran )
  7. saif
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    Assalamu alaikum sister a_stranger

    Thank you for posting these verses, which really conclude the whole discussion. How clear is Quran! And how unclear is our understanding. Alas!

    Traditional interpretation of Quran 5:51
    The thread was started in 2011 with an article of answering christianity. I have seen, that they have done some effort to resolve this paradox pointed out by sister Cariad. The main object of discussion is the following verse:

    upload_2016-7-21_15-21-43.png

    Just like this translation of Sahih International, they propose, that the word Wali in the above verse cannot be translated as friend but as alliance. This apparently resolves the above paradox but opens up a door of a series of historic "stupidities". I wittnessed one such stupidity in an interview of Dr. Israr Ahmed of Pakistan, when he was asked about Pakistan's close relations with China and about his desire (at that particular time) to have good relations with India. On that question, he said, we are only asked not to be alliance with Jews and Christians. Mushrikeen are not included. You see, how stupid this interpretation can make an otherwise great scholar like Dr. Israr Ahmed?

    We are asked to be with 'adl, with justice. If we interpret this verse, like it is usually done, then that would mean, Quran is ('Iyyazubillah) suggesting, that Christians and Jews will always be unjust for all time to come. There is a chance for others, like mushrikeen, to be just but there is no chance for christians and jews to be just. I ask you, can that be true? The fact is, muslims have always been making alliances with christians and jews and in most cases for good reasons. Meethaaq of Medina being the first such example and the saudi alliance with americans against Iraq after Ibn Baaz's fatwa a more recent example. 'Adl is decisive brothers and sisters not the religious belonging of a nation. We are asked to be against our own people, if they are not on 'adl.

    So I completly reject this translation of "alliance" for Wali in this particular verse and announce my Bara'ah for all those who are associating this to Islam.

    So how should it be interpreted?
    Following is (more or less) the translation of Ustaaz Javed Ahmed Ghamidi:

    "O you who have believed, do not make THESE jews and christians your friends. They are friends of eachother. And (remember), if somebody from you makes them his friend (despite this warning), then he will be counted among them. Verily Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."

    Decisive word in the above translation is "these". This is the translation of the definite article "alif laam" in the context of this verse and in the overall context of Quran. The verses of Surah Al Mumtahina you have quoted are also supporting this translation.

    It is clear, that muslims are asked to break all social and political relations with this particular group of the people of the book, who, after being given enough proof the the prophethood of the Prophet, chose to reject him. Thus they became kuffaar. Before announcing their punishment of Mahkumiah in Surah atTaubah, muslims are asked to break all ties with them. Their punishment was to remain mahkuum of muslims and to pay jizziah by their own hands.

    Alas muslims think, it has become their birth right to demand jizziah from all people of the book and for all times to come, just like they think, it has become their birth right to kill all mushrikeen for all times to come. I hereby announce my Bra'ah from all such interpretations, which are bringing disgrace to the name of Islam, death to innocent muslims and non-muslims alike and hatred towards all muslims, who do not even know, what is happening.

    Wassalamu alaikum.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
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  8. Cariad
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    So we can be friends in peace :) at least that's how I see it. Can we be allies in war ?.. If we have enemy in common.
  9. saif
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    Of course. This is, what I have discussed in my last post.
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  10. cabdixakim
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    As'salaamu Aleikum warahmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh...

    I see this thread as one which is resolved but I'd like to add;

    Awliya... Wilayah(noun) in (Qur'an 5:51) and many other verses is not just friendship or allience...

    Wali, as understood by it's usage in many places of the Qur'an and in language, is a very close bond of affection protection and love... when someone is your "wali", his interests are yours and yours lie in his interests not so true for a casual friend... a friend/ally/guardian/whatever translation you found for it and "wali" may sound and mean the same thing but yet are not the same!

    Likewise ; shelter and home basically give the same meaning but are not the same... Home is all you know all your bond with(wali) while shelter is anywhere you seek protection in and can leave for good without a second thought (casual friend, consequential ally)...

    Thus I don't think there is one perfect english word for "Wali" in all that I read in this thread or is known to me yet... so by Saheeh International's usage of "friend"... it's very understandable as they're many kinds of friends; those qualified as "wali" even but it still does not satisfy the weight of the word "awliya"...

    The thing that got me here though was the twisted translation of Javed Ahmed Ghamidi quoted above; His translation tries to undermine the verse and place it only for a particular group of people and time...

    Firstly, there is no (these→ pronoun) in this verse... as @saif said, the (Alif laam_ before the noun" jews") is a definite article which is "the" not "these"...

    secondly, this verse refers to all muslims of all ages... just which particular specific group of Christians were the direct addressees of this verse? Bearing in mind that the first encounter of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) with a christian group was two years before his death...

    thirdly, if Ghamidi's view that this verse addresses only the "dealt with" people of the book is as he says, doesn't it also mean, we shall have absolute love for the "people of the book" of this time and take them as close associates and helpers?... because the prohibition does not apply to them.

    Because the above translation is erroneous and so far adistance from the understing of most muslims, it becomes a necessity to ask why go to such a grave extent!!
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
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  11. saif
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    wa alaikumu ssalaam wa rahmtaullahi wa barakatuh

    First of all you are mistaken, that Sahih International has translated it as friend and there are many kinds of friends as you put it. The word they have used is "ally". So both answering christianity and sahih international are on one page and you are on a different page. Please read this original link again:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/friends.htm

    It will be hard to derive your meaning from the english word ally, if not impossible. Before I address the other points in your post, please confirm, that you are disagreeing with answering christianity and you are disagreeing with Sahih International.

    Again, I am not saying arabic language does not offer your meaning. I am just asking you to confirm, that answering christianity brothers have wrongly understood to restrict it to alliances and Sahih International has misunderstood the true meaning of wali to be ally.

    Wassalamu alaikum
  12. cabdixakim
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    Wacaleykumas'salaam warahmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh...

    An ally is basically a friend... but a special type of friend... A "wali" again is basically an ally but a very special kind of ally...

    I did not give "wali" one word translation so where and why would I disagree with those who did so...

    All I said was; the words such as "Awliya" must be given their contextual meaning otherwise its weight is lost.

    And now; just as it will be unsatisfactory to translate "wali" as friend and leave it like that so is to translate it as an Ally... Because Allah describes himself as the "wali" of the believers... is that too an alliance_ of mutual benefits?

    Friend= رفيق، زميل ، خليل ، صديق

    Ally= حليف ، معاهد

    Wali= a very close bond of love affection and protection... in which the people involved have nothing in between them!

    Word to word Qur'an translation is very difficult and only qualified masters of the field people like Sahiih international may come close to making it possible... Thus I cannot blame nor disagree with their translation as it will be awkward to write all that for a single word... Atleast, they gave it a word(ally) which we can then explain in context.
  13. saif
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    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuh
    Let us recall, where it all started. We hardly have any difference in the translation of the word wali because in my translation I have included the personal friendship with those jews and christians.

    If you would have read that article of answering christianity, you would know, that they are actually excluding the person to person relationship from the scope of the word wali. Since they are limiting it to the political alliances of muslims with non-muslims (against other muslims), they have prefered to use the word ally. Following is a copy-paste from the original article:

    You see, there is a reason why they are using the word ally instead of friend. I don't have a proof but a strong conviction, that Sahih International has exactly the same understanding.

    That differentiation was not there in your explanation of the word wali.

    Instead of asking me, it would be an appropriate question to ask those who are translating it as ally. You are forgetting, it is not me who is restricting this word for political alliances of muslim nations with non muslim nations. However, my intellectual honesty is forcing me to provide you this hint, even it means being "devil's" advocate. The words in almost all languages in general and in quranic arabic in particular change their meaning with their context of usage. The meaning of the word wali in verses like ...Allah is the only wali of the believers... cannot be the same, when used in the context of muslims and non muslims.

    I still do not have the confirmation, which I need to proceed. Now you have yourself translated the word ally to be haleef and muahid, which points out to the same understanding as advocated in the above quotes. So do you now believe, that the word wali is to be restricted to political alliances of muslim nations with christian and jewish nations against other muslim nations? I hope, this is the case because the word ally itself and the above quotes are leaving no space for other interpretations. After your confirmation, I will start addressing that.

    Wassalamu alaikum
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    Assalamo aleykom.
    Yes you can have a none Muslim friend.
    I'm a Persian man from Iran and i know friend word has its differences.
    Try to read "tafsir" about the "ولی" word.
    ولی is different than friend and sadly i believe its the only issue between sunni and shia brothers, i also found a lot of sunni reaserchers from past centuries who was agree with shia researchers and العلماء about the meaning and tafsir of الولی word in quran. It has 2 meaning: one is specific and the other one has a general meaning. God bless you all brothers & sisters.
    Ragard - Hamid
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
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    If you needed more help about the wali word, i will be happy to do my best for you. I believe you will get suprise about it and the way that iranian mofassers, translated it.
  16. Haimi
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    Look at the آیه

    السورة الممتحنة
    لَّا يَنْهَاكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجُوكُم مِّن دِيَارِكُمْ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمْ وَتُقْسِطُوا إِلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ


    And now think about this آیه especially after the word: الرحمة

    السورة الأنبياء
    وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
    For everyone and everything! I don't see that quran say: الرحمة للمسلمین أو للمومنین،
    No! but instead it says for everyone and everything. It's simple and clear.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  17. cabdixakim
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    Wacaleykumas'salaam waraxmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh...

    No! The word "wali" is not to be restricted for political alliance between a muslim nation and a jew/christian nation against other muslims... There was no such thing anywhere at that time of Islamic history...( and I thought you were limiting the verse to that period only).

    I gave the translation of Ally as "haleef" and " Ahiid/mua'ahid" to otherwise say " look! Wali does not directly mean or translate as Ally" because the direct arabic words for ally are those ones and the likes...

    I also said, Wali has a different more heavier meaning than ally or friend.

    if you(as an individual) have an absolute love and affection for someone, stand by him and answer his calls no matter the case, always with his company preferring him to all other people and basically can "give him a sword and turn your back to him" then that (individual) is your wali... (Just another paragraph to give the word its due weight)
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
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  18. saif
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    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuh

    Then be explicit please and say in clear words, that you disagree with answering christianity (and sahih international). The quotes I have copied from answering christianity are very clear.

    Because first you should realize, that you are alone in your translation. Then we can discuss it further.

    Wassalamu alaikum
  19. saif
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    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuh
    Just to avoid more misunderstandings, I am in no way challenging the explanation you have provided for the word wali. Answering christianity and sahih international do not accept this particular meaning of wali in the context of these verses. They restrict it to alliances of muslim countries with christian or jewish countries. It was their way of resolving the paradox in not taking them as wali and marrying their women. When you will first acknowledge, that you reject their version, then we would like to hear, how you resolve that paradox.

    Wassalamu alaikum
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    I'm confused, are we talking about the question or the problem is "wali" word?
    والسلام

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