Christian and Islam beliefs

[muslimah-2k8]

The problem with your story is that you compare the king(creation) with God(creator)...

you must know the story of Caliph Umar r.a. who flogged his own son as a punishment for a sin... his son died...

this is justice... the king wasn't just... Caliph Umar r.a. was just...

To err is Human... When God can forgive if you repent, why does He have to come down to forgive... Glory be to Him... He is far above his creation...

As for the videos, who refutes who is not important... who refutes correctly is important...
watch the videos closely... you can't deny the explicit verses of the Bible for the verses that can be interpreted both ways, though they do not talk about divinity of Jesus p.bu.h....

Jesus p.b.u.h. would have asked his followers to worship him or say 'i am God'
... you wouldn't find any such verse in the Bible... why would he leave your salvation to interpretation instead of stating it clearly...

The fact is Jesus p.b.u.h. was a Muslim(one who submits to God).. he prayed the way Muslims pray... he preached monotheism... the same religion of all the prophets of God including the last and final messenger Muhammad p.b.u.h.

Most of the speakers of Islam today like Yusuf Estes, Abdur-Raheem Green, Bilal Phillips etc. were previously Christians who now proclaim the truth.

Don't follow conjecture.. follow the Truth...

Gospel of John Ch. 5, V. 30 -
‘I can of my own self do nothing - As I hear I judge and my judgement is just - Because I seek not my will but the will of the Father who has sent me’

Mathew Ch.5 V. 17 to 20 -
‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the Prophets - I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till the heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall not pass away from the law, untill all be fulfilled. And whosoever therefore, shall break one of the least commandments and teach men to do so, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. And whosoever shall keep them, and teach them so, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For verily, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharasees, in no way shall you enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'

(Ezekiel 18:20) -
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

The Holy Quran 2:136
Say: "We believe in Allah and that which is revealed
to us; and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham),
Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and
their descendants, and that which was given to Musa
(Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their
Rabb. We do not discriminate any of them, and to
Allah we have surrendered ourselves (in Islam)."

 

[hellbraker]

Jesus p.b.u.h. would have asked his followers to worship him or say 'i am God'
... you wouldn't find any such verse in the Bible... why would he leave your salvation to interpretation instead of stating it clearly...

Thank You My Sister..

Jesus never said I am God,but He said "Before Abraham was, I am".Now, this made the Pharisees angry and they picked up stones to kill him.Why?Was it not beacause Jesus claimed that He is the "I am" ?

Remember that when Moses asked God his name,God said to call him I AM who I AM (Exodus 3:14)

Now the irony to me is that ancient Hebrew does not have a past, present, or future tense.So what did Jesus mean? Was he saying something about God or about Himself? Even if he meant about the "true" God,why did the people try to kill him?He just told that God existed before Abraham.Whats wrong with that?

But then,Jesus in numerous times also says that He is "weaker" than God.What was he thinking?Instead of making things simpler,it just got complicated.Lol!!

Well,to answer that I have to read Philippians 2:5-7.
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

(6)Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(7)But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

(8)And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

It was confusing to me in the beginning,but because of all your input,Its clear now.
Thank u all
Peace b with you.

 

[hellbraker]

(Ezekiel 18:20) -
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Sister,
Did you mean that the "son" used here is for Jesus? If so reading the above verse made me think,why did Jesus die then.It then made the whole point of crucifixion unacceptable. But then,reading it again made it clear.
In that verse it talks about a father and a son.This father sinned.But we know that God does not sin.So this son must not be Jesus.

You taught me again something new which I had not known.
Thank you
Peace be with you.

 

[Waseem203]

This is my problem with Christianitys logic. Before you can really understand it, you need to go through a phase of utter confusion. Once you pass that phase, all your confusion is simply replaced by "faith" or having firm beleif in what makes no sense to so manny people. I will not accept the insinuation that --God , Al Somad, the self-sufficient, Al Ahad, The only and Only, Al Melek, the King, Al Qudoos, The holyness, As Salam - The peace--it goes on, came down to Earth because the world is sinning to kill himself. It does not work to me. Here we have a perfect creator, flawless, all-knowing, all-hearing fleeing for his life on the eve of cruxifiction. It does not work for me. Think about it-- The Father noticed the Children of Israel where astray, he sent his Son and reduced him to a child into a womb, then after 9 months in darkness, "God" (astaghforallah) was born into the world and began ministry shortly. But wait -- the son is also the Father that means that the Father ALSO was in the womb according to the trinity. And yet, theres still the holy spirit to account for. When Jesus was "dead" does that mean that the Father was dead aswell? If so, and you have to agree (this is according to the trinity), then who was running the universe.? I beleive I mentioned before that I am not very old, if Islam made no sense to me, I *would* leave. I have examined these religions, and espically Christianity assures me that the Quran was right when it said they were "daleen".

You quoted Exekiel 18:20 as not reffering to the trinity. What difference does it make wether it is directly or indirectly reffering to something similar to it? The idea of the verse is there-- one cannot hold the burden of another. You said Jesus was reduced to a man, then does this not mean it now applys to him?

You also quoted one of Pauls books ( I call him the founder of Christianity )--again, same idea. This logic is inconsistent - one cannot be divine and mortal at the same time. In school i'm researching on Roman and Greek mythlogogy. And what brought this to my attention was Abdul Rahman Green ( I beleive thats his name ), if you take the time, you can clearly notice that there are chunks and chunks of Roman mythlogy into CHristianity. TO me this makes so much sense, Paul, with a pagan heritage , writing more than half of the New Testament? Then all of sudden, disagrements break out on wether Jesus is God or not, wether the trinity should be considered doctrine. I will not list details here, if you would like you can PM I will show you the Pagan Gods similar to Christianitys theology.

Finnaly, about the "I am who I am" I actually have a video on this that I will post as soon as I find it.

If I offended you, forgive me. Salam alikom.

 

[justoneofmillion]

Sister,
Did you mean that the "son" used here is for Jesus? If so reading the above verse made me think,why did Jesus die then.It then made the whole point of crucifixion unacceptable. But then,reading it again made it clear.
In that verse it talks about a father and a son.This father sinned.But we know that God does not sin.So this son must not be Jesus.

You taught me again something new which I had not known.
Thank you
Peace be with you.

Hi,no she meant the sons of Adam!brother hellbreaker,if Adam sinned his sons are not responsible for it,neither is he responsible for the inequity of his children bani adam.Which implies that every new born baby is sinless something me and the pope happen to agree on lately...briefly.

God also told Jeremiah"I knew you before you were in your mother s womb,i have made you a prophet to the world"how can a man be a prophet before he was in his mothers womb !this is a Jewish book full of metaphors and similitude,you can not read a Jewish book through Greek glasses.Because every one of us was in the mind of god before we got here ,chilling in timelessness.

Dear hellbraker ,if you go to the search engine you will find all the verses you quoted have being refuted many times through the bible in this forum,by myself brother bluegazer especially, ibnu alawaam and others,it is just that this forum is meant to learn about Islam not to debate,Christians ,Hindus,Buddhists ,Jews ..etc.We have done that so many times with other of your co coreligionists that ended up accepting Islam right away on this forum.It is just that we are sometimes not in the mood to explain things over and over again,as you know the subject is very vast.Just use the advanced search engine

And peace be with you my friend
jameel

 

[aelshamy]

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Here Jesus is claiming to be God.

Jesus never said I am God

Dear hellbraker, which one do you believe?

 

[hellbraker]

This is my problem with Christianitys logic. Before you can really understand it, you need to go through a phase of utter confusion. Once you pass that phase, all your confusion is simply replaced by "faith" or having firm beleif in what makes no sense to so manny people. I will not accept the insinuation that --God , Al Somad, the self-sufficient, Al Ahad, The only and Only, Al Melek, the King, Al Qudoos, The holyness, As Salam - The peace--it goes on, came down to Earth because the world is sinning to kill himself. It does not work to me. Here we have a perfect creator, flawless, all-knowing, all-hearing fleeing for his life on the eve of cruxifiction. It does not work for me. Think about it-- The Father noticed the Children of Israel where astray, he sent his Son and reduced him to a child into a womb, then after 9 months in darkness, "God" (astaghforallah) was born into the world and began ministry shortly. But wait -- the son is also the Father that means that the Father ALSO was in the womb according to the trinity. And yet, theres still the holy spirit to account for. When Jesus was "dead" does that mean that the Father was dead aswell? If so, and you have to agree (this is according to the trinity), then who was running the universe.? I beleive I mentioned before that I am not very old, if Islam made no sense to me, I *would* leave. I have examined these religions, and espically Christianity assures me that the Quran was right when it said they were "daleen".

You quoted Exekiel 18:20 as not reffering to the trinity. What difference does it make wether it is directly or indirectly reffering to something similar to it? The idea of the verse is there-- one cannot hold the burden of another. You said Jesus was reduced to a man, then does this not mean it now applys to him?

You also quoted one of Pauls books ( I call him the founder of Christianity )--again, same idea. This logic is inconsistent - one cannot be divine and mortal at the same time. In school i'm researching on Roman and Greek mythlogogy. And what brought this to my attention was Abdul Rahman Green ( I beleive thats his name ), if you take the time, you can clearly notice that there are chunks and chunks of Roman mythlogy into CHristianity. TO me this makes so much sense, Paul, with a pagan heritage , writing more than half of the New Testament? Then all of sudden, disagrements break out on wether Jesus is God or not, wether the trinity should be considered doctrine. I will not list details here, if you would like you can PM I will show you the Pagan Gods similar to Christianitys theology.

Finnaly, about the "I am who I am" I actually have a video on this that I will post as soon as I find it.

If I offended you, forgive me. Salam alikom.

Thank you my brother...
You are not at all offending me...Im offended by myself,and being offended by myself,as I am selfish and think only about me and not God.Brothers and Sisters like you have helped me a lot.You all have helped me understand about the Creator many times and in many ways.I suddenly wished I was a forest tribesman..lol.I will still be in the olden ages.I will not have all this knowledge,I will worship my own "Gods" and yet die.And let God judge me.

But since I have all these knowledge,all these information.I am Doomed.I wish I was a child.I remember what Jesus said,"You will not enter Heaven,unless you become like a child".How true!

Thank you

 

[hellbraker]

Hi,no she meant the sons of Adam!brother hellbreaker,if Adam sinned his sons are not responsible for it,neither is he responsible for the inequity of his children bani adam.Which implies that every new born baby is sinless something me and the pope happen to agree on lately...briefly.

God also told Jeremiah"I knew you before you were in your mother s womb,i have made you a prophet to the world"how can a man be a prophet before he was in his mothers womb !this is a Jewish book full of metaphors and similitude,you can not read a Jewish book through Greek glasses.Because every one of us was in the mind of god before we got here ,chilling in timelessness.

Dear hellbraker ,if you go to the search engine you will find all the verses you quoted have being refuted many times through the bible in this forum,by myself brother bluegazer especially, ibnu alawaam and others,it is just that this forum is meant to learn about Islam not to debate,Christians ,Hindus,Buddhists ,Jews ..etc.We have done that so many times with other of your co coreligionists that ended up accepting Islam right away on this forum.It is just that we are sometimes not in the mood to explain things over and over again,as you know the subject is very vast.Just use the advanced search engine

And peace be with you my friend
jameel

Thank you Brother,
I never saw this as a debate.And i dont want to.I want to learn from u.Thats why Im asking lots of questions.
Are you saying that God knows us and our future even before we are born?I and you know,that he does.If so why am i still a non-believer? Why does He answer mine and ur prayers?Is it because of my choice or is it because God wants me to be like this.Im terribly confused.
Thank you
Peace be with u brother.

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

:salam2: sorry for coming into the discussion at the 11th hour, lol, but this is a most interesting thread. Dear brother hellbraker, are you asking if God knows what choices we will make before we are even born? I believe, and I am not too schooled, that we, as Muslims believe that our "books" our already written before we are born and that Allah knows our fate already. He knows everything, the seen and the unseen. Now, animals are natural "muslims" if you like, in the sense that they do what God put them on earth to do. However, human beings were given the gift of intellect. As Muslims we believe that our main purpose for this journey of our life, here on earth, is to worship the Almighty Creator. In this life, we are faced with many tests and scenarios which leads us to make various choices and we will be accountable for our actions in all aspects of life, or lack thereof, on the Day of Judgement. The Almighty Creator knows what each person can comprehend and He knows who has received His message and who chooses to ignore it. For somebody like you, it is clear that you are thirsty for knowledge and you are in the midst of that journey. I don't think you should ever consider that you are marked to be doomed or to remain a non-believer. We do not know what your future holds,, only Allah knows. I was quite happy to be away from any kind of religion when I was a teenager, but once I studied Qur'an, I simply could not deny that it was The Truth. If you had asked me back then if one day I would be living to worship the Almighty and practising my faith and wearing hijab, I would have said not in a million years! :ma: you never know what lies ahead, brother, and I respect that you are here to learn. We must never give up on seeking knowledge, it is our duty to the Creator and to ourselves

 

[Shishani]

Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=66

 

[LIVE4TRUTH]

The fact is Jesus p.b.u.h. was a Muslim(one who submits to God).. he prayed the way Muslims pray... he preached monotheism... the same religion of all the prophets of God including the last and final messenger Muhammad p.b.u.h.

Thank you for your response muslimah-2k8

In reference to your quote mentioned above, that is exactly the point. If Jesus would have revealed that "I am God" everywhere, and and if he also performed miracles everytime, he would have been like "Superman" or "Spiderman", don't you think? Nobody, would probably dare to convict him, let alone crucified him. If He is not crucified, then, the whole sacrificial substitute that I mentioned earlier would have not been taken place, and none of us would be saved.

Again, you brought up a few bible verses. The reason I did not bring any Quran verses to argue with you against your findings is because I did not want to turn this discussion into a debate. I have read some Quran too, but I am not in anyway claiming to be an expert of it. However, if someone honestly asks why Christians believe the way they do, may be I can bring some points from Christian perspectives.

Hope this helps.

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

Thank you for your response muslimah-2k8

In reference to your quote mentioned above, that is exactly the point. If Jesus would have revealed that "I am God" everywhere, and and if he also performed miracles everytime, he would have been like "Superman" or "Spiderman", don't you think? Nobody, would probably dare to convict him, let alone crucified him. If He is not crucified, then, the whole sacrificial substitute that I mentioned earlier would have not been taken place, and none of us would be saved.

Again, you brought up a few bible verses. The reason I did not bring any Quran verses to argue with you against your findings is because I did not want to turn this discussion into a debate. I have read some Quran too, but I am not in anyway claiming to be an expert of it. However, if someone honestly asks why Christians believe the way they do, may be I can bring some points from Christian perspectives.

Hope this helps.

:salam2: dear respected brothers and sisters. This is a nice thread, :ma:, I am learning a lot myself. Dear brother or sister Live4truth, I was born into a non-practising Catholic family in Dublin Ireland but I never did read much of the bible in Catholic school and I only saw the inside of a church at school functions or funerals. However, I refused to repeat the "Apostle's Creed" from fairly early on as I knew it was just not for me, personally. But I can understand the Christian perspective quite well like many other reverts to Islam on TTI.

My six-year-old is quite the super hero fan and from what I understand after watching Spiderman I, II and III many times, lol, there is always a bad guy or bad guys trying to belittle and destroy the super hero, is there not?!

The whole "sacrificial substitute" especially does not make much sense to me, and I hope I do not offend you in being candid. Why would Jesus, and assuming that you believe that he is the son of God or God incarnate, have to have died to save us from an eternity of damnation? Does it seem fair? It does not seem fair to me. It would not have been fair to Jesus and I believe it would not be fair to us either. Are we not given intellect to make our own choices and bear the responsibility of our own actions? Doesn't it feel sweeter when you work hard towards something to get it right when you get that report card or promotion at work than had you cheated in the test or worked your way up the corporate ladder through less than admirable behaviour? Most definitely!! With the whole "Lamb of God" concept, I get the impression that there are those who believe, mistakenly in my opinion, that they are destined to be saved because "they come through Jesus" no matter how they have behaved towards their fellow humanbeing or in worship in this life. It seems a bit arrogant to me to make such presumptions. A true Muslim is humble and is constantly asking for the Creator's forgiveness and trying to incorporate worship and faith into every aspect of their lives on a quest of self-improvement and deep worship. We know there are no guarantees about where each individual will end up in the Hereafter and we can only pray that we will be amongst those who enter Paradise. Allah (God) is the best of judges.

If someone believes they are saved because they believe Jesus is God or the Son of God or God incarnate, why would they bother worshipping any deity if they are destined for Paradise, in their view, anyway?

PS - Although Muslims do not believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is God or the Son of God, etc., we do believe that he is the Messiah. His miracles are mentioned in the Qur'an, including this one that Christians seem to be unaware of.... Jesus speaking from the cradle for us is Muslims is his first miracle:

"But she (Mary) pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one
who is a child in the cradle?

He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me Revelation and made me a prophet:"" Surah 19:Maryam (Mary), verse 29-30

 

[AdamMuslim]

Salam,
As usual, very good response by sister cmelbouzaidi

 

[muslimah-2k8]

JESUS A PROPHET

:salam2:

@Hellbraker

Ezekiel 18:20 was correctly explained by 'justoneofmillion'

As for John 8:58 "before Abraham was, I Am" , i can give you 101 interpretations which prove that there is no claim to divinity being made here.

My point still remains - don't follow conjecture, follow the truth.

Mark 12:29 -
‘Shama Israelo, Ada Ilahaino Ada Ihad’
‘Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, is one lord’

The Holy Quran 3:64 -
" SAY: "O PEOPLE OF THE BOOK!
COME TO COMMON TERMS AS BETWEEN US AND YOU:
THAT WE WORSHIP NONE BUT GOD;
THAT WE ASSOCIATE NO PARTNERS WITH HIM;
THAT WE ERECT NOT, FROM AMONG OURSELVES, LORDS AND PATRONS OTHER THAN GOD."
IF THEN THEY TURN BACK, SAY YE: "BEAR WITNESS THAT WE (AT LEAST) ARE MUSLIMS (BOWING TO GOD'S WILL)" "

 

[LIVE4TRUTH]

Thank you very much for your insights, especially cmelbouzaidi. You don't have to worry about offending me. Believe me. I am an adult married man, and did not intend to be candid or hide anything, and I already gave an introduction of my life earlier in this discussion. If you wish to know more about me, you are welcome to ask.

Your response about superman is funny , however, in reality, I have to disagree with your assessment. Movies are made to entertain the viewers.

Speaking of fairness on this earth, we will find that many things are unfair. For example, if someone was born of a wealthy family in Dublin, in comparison to someone else that was born to a family that live below poverty line, is there any fairness to it? No, in my opinion and there are so many things in this life that are not fair. Life is is full of unfairness and unfair events, especially since we live in a failing world. We live in this world because of God's grace, and that is where the theology of Christians come into place.

The theology of Christian comes from "being saved because of God's grace", not because we're capable of living a sinless life. The standard of God for heaven is sinless, yet no man/woman can achieve such level, no matter how hard we try. We can be a better person, but we can not be without sin, as we are sinful by nature. Thus, the concept of "sacrificial substitute" takes place.

If you have a bible and you read the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, it describe the "sacrificial substitute" that Isaiah prophesied. For example, Isaiah 53:3-5

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Also, I disagree with your findings about what is right or wrong, however I will not elaborate it here, since in my opinion, it would be hard to discuss about this objectively without offending anybody.

Contrary to what you might believe about Christians, the fruit of "believe in faith to Jesus" should be a better person (love, mercy, patience, etc), not because Christians want to be accepted by God (because believers are already accepted), but because we can never repay what God has done for us (the sacrificial substitute), thus at the very least, living a better life will hopefully set an example for others to follow. But again, we are just human beings. A lot of times, we can be a stumbling block to others.

If you question some Christians who are evils, or do evil things, I can only say, if they truly believe in Christ, why did they do what they did? The bottom line is, one can never be sure of others salvation, but one can be sure of his/her own salvation, ONLY.

Re John 8:58 is only one of the soo many divinity claim that Jesus made.
Re Mark 12:29, it does not negate the Trinity believe.
Re Ezekiel 18:20 does not contradict with Adam and Eve story. All it tells you is that if your father goes to hell, you can still go to heaven. For Adam and Eve story that causes a failing world, here is the example: if someone is a drug addict, slept with anybody, and became pregnant, bore a defective baby, that is the perfect example of this. Does the baby sin in this case? Of course not. Does the baby carry the consequences of the mother's irresponsible behavior? To some extent yes.

I, as Christians believe, that if we humbly pray and seek God righteousness, He will lead us to the right path. Thank you for the responses and God bless.

 

[justoneofmillion]

If you have a bible and you read the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, it describe the "sacrificial substitute" that Isaiah prophesied. For example, Isaiah 53:3-5

Greetings, it does not talk about the Jewish messiah in that passage does it?describe the characteristics of the Jewish messiah if you will.Thanks in advance

 

[justoneofmillion]

The theology of Christian comes from "being saved because of God's grace", not because we're capable of living a sinless life. The standard of God for heaven is sinless, yet no man/woman can achieve such level, no matter how hard we try. We can be a better person, but we can not be without sin, as we are sinful by nature. Thus, the concept of "sacrificial substitute" takes place.

If you have a bible and you read the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, it describe the "sacrificial substitute" that Isaiah prophesied. For example, Isaiah 53:3-5



If you question some Christians who are evils, or do evil things, I can only say, if they truly believe in Christ, why did they do what they did? The bottom line is, one can never be sure of others salvation, but one can be sure of his/her own salvation, ONLY.

Greetings,

Thus everyone is responsible for his own sins!Dear friend we can not blame others for our sins and certainly not blame god for creating us this way,"Bring"him down and nail him on a cross consequently.He knew what he was doing when he created Adam ,God deosn t need to repent and "kill himself" for a presupposed defect in his creation,he forgives,and he certainly did not want to make of us gods once we liberate our "pure" souls from our "evil" bodies as well.

This is a Greek concept not a Jewish one.Nowhere in the Quraan will you find that the body is bad while the soul is pure,Both are potentially good.Altough they are naturally in constant tension with one another ,they are both dependent on what we make of them.

Too much emphasis on the soul would lead one towards spiritual arrogance whilst too much on the body brings one down to his animal instinct,the ecosystem and all the mathematical and physical laws that govern this marvelous creation,depict for us the need to keep both soul and body balanced in humility ,that is what we are told to strive for,but only god as you said is perfect which implies that he is fully conscious of the specificities of that which he creates.

The principle that human beings somehow are in fact a part of god that happen to be trapped in this world and that they have to liberate themselves from their prison bodies to be in the presence of god, has it s roots in Greek mysticism (Greek mystery religions) not in monotheism.Humans saw everything in their existence evolve and transform from something that exists in a finite form,defined by time and space,and thought that god manifested himself in a similar manner .This shows our difficulty in understanding the infinite.By saying that god became a man ,an elephant ,the Sun. or that everything is god (pantheism)..etc we try to cling to concepts we are familiar with,aka the creation,which do not fit the attributes of the eternal creator.

The fact that god had created this world out of grace for us human beings added to the fact that this world is so unfair and troublesome is another sign that the heaven to our pure souls is somewhere else and was meant to be this way don t you think?What s the need for heaven otherwise...Still even there inshallah we will not be gods it was never meant to be,again as you know only God is prefect in that sense.If being human is a sin in itself, god never made the sin to be something else than that ,he made it that way.It would confuse all well established notions in the most schizophrenic fashion.It is wiser to see the human being as innocent before proven guilty and less fatalistic to perceive him good in nature.

The whole of European history of atheism had a chance to develop because of this concept,because from the moment on that god was meant to be a seen as a simple human projection,there were no more limits for the deification of the human being,If god himself could n t comprehend and that in fact he had to go through a humanization process cry ,sleep,eat drink,be tempted by the devil and die... etc.In other words in takes a human being to teach god to be compassionate and to understand his own creation,being godly doesn t qualify him to such insights.

None else than the human being could know better from now on how to manage his life and give instruction,there is no need for guidelines or revelation not even from the all knowing god himself,it becomes something optional in the subconscious of people,thus banalized or even nullified when projected to the reality of their daily lives and endeavors (one prays when he is sick or in real big trouble...etc).Be it in the political sphere with the appearances of ideologies like communism, national socialism and capitalism and in the social sphere with phenomenons such as psychologism,racism,Feminism, movie and music idols worshiping..etc .This is what gave to prominent philosophers and apostles of atheism the fruitful platform for their thinking from Descartes to Marx, from Voltaire to Nietzsche ,passing by Kant ,Swinburne or Freud .

This is why Nietzsche could "kill"god,science could n t really kill god but it killed it in the hearts and minds of people,and the rest is history..We can not deny that! A real sad history in fact because what was meant to be the detachment from the dogmas of the church and it s enmity to science to move towards the concretisation of reason, has brought everything else but reason and peace to the world we since have had two world wars,the development of chemical and nuclear weapons,the Nazi concentration camps ,the Archipel gulag and the crimes of communism, the genocides in Bosnia and elsewhere ..etc And now we are destroying the environment,and finding excuses for wars for the sake of eating one another like good Darwinian monkey wannabees,because there are not enough bananas for everyone s greed.As Ghandi would say there are just enough for everyone s need...

I could go on and on in the subject my brother however there are different angles from where you could take your approach while studying Islam inshallah If you wish to do so .You ll find that we did not have this kind of dichotomy between faith and reason. Good luck and welcome to TTI,hope to talk to you soon whenever i get the opportunity.

PS.This reminds me of this hadeeth from Rasulullah S.A.W he says that allah swt says,
'I am just as My servant believes me to be and I am with him when He remembers Me. So if he remembers Me within himself, I too remember him within Myself. If he remembers Me in a group of people then I remember him in a group that is better than them. If he comes one span nearer to Me then I go one cubit nearer to him; if he comes one cubit nearer to Me then I go a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him; and if he comes to Me walking then I go to him running.'