Christian V Muslim dialogue

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by Abu Loren, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    No taken...:D paradox or not. It is how Our God revealed himself to be. If Our God loves his creation..us..even if we be unworthy. How does our God know this love? A unitary being cannot know love. To love one has to be loved. Our God, Yeshua and Holy Spirit exist in all eternity in a community of love, It is Our Gods wish that we also be part of that community and know his love. I know Muslims do not like to hear the wishy washy concept of love in relation to Our God, but really it is his most powerful attribute because without love, there can be nothing.

    You just think of love as an emotion and compare with hate, greed, revenge etc and see which is the most powerful. :)
  2. Umm Abdullah
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    Allah informed us in the Qur'an about His 99 names & attributes. I don't care if you think it's a human invention. Allah is above His creation and nothing is like unto Him 'Azza wa Jal.
    Our faith is based on both love and fear :)
  3. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    Our faiths are similar because we follow the Prophets and Messengers of the One True God and they all came with the same message, that is that there is no god but God the One. In Arabic He is known as Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala (Glory to Him in the Highest). I don't make any mistakes because I don't think that His plan is disjointed in any way. From the very beginning when Adam and Eve (Alayhi Salaatul Asalaam) were sent to Earth they were given instructions to give to their progeny instructing them to worship one God and not to associate partners with Him.

    The mistake you make is that because Christianity is corrupted by the Trinity and Islam steadfastly keep to true monotheism you think that Islam is wrong and you are right. Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Sallam) brought the same message as Masih Isa (Alayhi Salaam). I challenge you to produce proof from either the Old Testament or the New that any Messenger or Prophet taught the Trinity.

    The Old and New Testaments are 'brought together' by association. This was mainly done by Paul. Then you have the famous verse from Isaiah.

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Many Christians believe that this verse is predicting the crucifixion of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam). There are no indications that this is so but only by association that one can say that this verse is talking about Jesus (Alayhi Salaam).

    I don't know what you are trying to get across here.

    Yes I think it's best to avoid this because it is a matter of faith, we can talk all year about how uncorrupted and pure the Noble Qur'an is and NO Christian will accept it because it is an impossible scenario that they do not like facing.

    Yes labels. We've had this conversation before in another thread.

    Many Christians believe that the word 'Muslim' was invented by Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). When I tell them that ALL the Prophets of god were Muslims they want to shoot me. If you know that Aramaic word for a person who has submitted or surrendered to God is then that's what they were. So in Arabic, we would say that Prophets Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa ,Yaqub, Yusuf, Yunus Dawud, Suleiman, Yahya, Isa etc (Alayhi Salatal Asalaam) were all Muslims. They simply surrendered to the Will of God.

    No matter how you explain the above to them they scratch their heads as if it is rocket science.


    Nobody knows who has a chance of salvation than Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Only He knows who will be saved and who will not, only He knows the past, present and future and only He knows the unseen.

    Peace to you too.
  4. Cariad
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    hello Abu Loren, firstly let me say that the differences we have in our beliefs are just that. I am not saying your belief is wrong and mine right, that would be pure arrogance on my part. I simply want to put across why my beliefs make sense to ME, and Islam does not...make sense to me that is. Who knows one day Our God might decide to change my path in life and guide me elsewhere..for there are only two certainties in this life...we are born and we die what we have in between is down to us as individuals I am happy to be a pawn in Our Gods game of life and will be happy where he places me. :) but I digress...on to your post.

    You believe Our God created Adam and Eve for the sole purpose to worship him and not to associate partners to him? And that is all? Do you not think this at all strange...God created Adam and Eve blessed them with free will (if this were not so they would never have fallen from grace also their would be no need to put restrictions upon them...as they would only operate by Gods will alone) therefore also, by this scenario there would be no need to stipulate the proviso of not associating partners to God. I believe initially Adam and Eve as the first parents were made in Our Gods image, for our God to show his love, they were meant to be the first loving parents of the whole of mankind, as such the worship and obedience to the father (Our God) would be a given. However, as both Bible and Quran tell us these two did not live up to Our Gods holy standard and fell into sin, yet knowing this Our God still gave then free will...amazing.. But I think maybe love and worship given from love and gratefulness is maybe worth more than an obligatory love.

    Obviously here I cannot agree about corruption with the trinity.. :) and I already say time and time again..I do not say I am right and Islam wrong..I only say what I believe based on what I understand. :D of course there is no mention of the word "Trinity" in the Holy Bible which you would know if you have ever read it. :) however, this does not mean that the concept of a triune nature ascribed to Our God does not exist in the Bible...to the contrary there are many..

    The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind based on our human understanding. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible. I understand Our God to be greater than all we can ever hope to be and so have no problem believing that there are many things beyond our understanding attributed to Our God.

    The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

    1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

    2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

    In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

    3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

    4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

    5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

    6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

    The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

    The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Now I do not for one minute expect you to accept this concept, but for me.. It does make sense..within the bounds of my human mind. :)

    Muslims will always believe as they do about Paul..no point elaborating on that any further I feel. On Isaiah 53:5... Who do you think it referred to? If this were the only reference pertaining to Yeshua in the Old Testament I could understand, but there are a great many more.


    Genesis 3:15
    12:3
    49:10 ........................The Promise
    Exodus 12:40-50 .........................The Passover Lamb
    Numbers 24:17...........The Scepter
    Deuteronomy 18:17-19.....The ComingProphet
    Job 19:25-27..........The Resurrection
    Psalms:
    2:1-12 .........................The New World Order to be Destroyed
    8:1-9 ................................Brought low for the suffering of death
    16:7-11...................Will not see decay
    22:1-31 ................................The Crucifixion Fortold (1,000 B.C.)
    45:1-9 .......................The King and his Bride
    110:1-7 ................................The Coming Priest

    Proverbs 30:4 ..................The Son
    Isaiah:
    7:14 ...................To be Born of a Virgin
    9:6-7 ..........................The Man who is God
    11:1-5 .........................The Righteous Judge
    42:1-9..........................The Judge of the Nations
    49:5-7 .........................The Light of the Gentiles
    52:13-15 ..................The Suffering Servant
    53:1-12 ....................................The Lamb of God...Raised from the Dead
    Jeremiah31:31-34 ......The New Covenant
    Daniel:
    7:13-14........................His Kingdom is Forever
    9:26................................He is to be "cut off" (initially)

    Amos 8:9-10.................. Sun to go down at Noon
    Micah 5:2 ...........................The Christ to be born in Bethlehem

    Zechariah:
    9:9 ......The King to enter Jerusalem riding a donkey (First Coming)
    11:10-13 ......He is to be sold for 30 pieces of silver
    12:9-10 .......................The Repentance of the Jews (Second Coming)
    14:1-9 ...........................The Second Coming
    Malachi 3:1-5.....................The Messenger prepares the way

    I was trying to say, I believe Prophet Mohammed was chosen by Yahweh as an Arab, to bring the Pagans and polytheists (of that time) in Arabia to the One true God.

    What can be said of the Quran can also be said of the Holy BIble, because they are both from God and both bear the marks of man. but agreed best to avoid...or be like a roundabout for evermore ..ya. :)

    Now I like this.. Because again we have what's in a name? In this instance the name Muslim and what it defines. For sure no where in the Jewish scriptures or the Gospels is the word found, not surprising at I think it is of Arabic origin. But if all who submit to One God, Our God...then by definition we are all Muslims.. Not Jew.. Or Christian... One thing divides us.. That is the belief in Mohammed as being the final Prophet. If it is thus, and this is the one dividing point, then the term Muslim can only be attributed to those who follow Prophet Mohammed as well as the One true God.. our God. As this is what many non Muslims see as the case..then I'm not surprised they scratch their heads in confusion..many do not see the Arabic words in their scriptures so it will seem strange for them.. But really Abu Loren, I'm sure they would not wish to shoot you..:D

    Peace and blessings. C
  5. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    Islam does not make sense to you? It's not rocket science. Believe in One God and do not associate partners to Him and He is nothing like His creation. He neither begets nor is He begotten.

    This is a romantacised view of things. First of all Adam and Eve (Alayhi Salutal Asalaam) did not fall from grace because they've always had the grace of God. They've simply made a mistake and satan tricked them into sinning. They were forgiven and sent to live in Earth which was part of the plan all along.

    Let's not go there as this topic alone will take up pages and pages of our effort.

    That's exactly what he did but he was also a mercy to the world as God was giving mankind a last chance for salvation until the Day of Judgement.

    It looks like you will never understand what I'm trying to say here.
  6. Cariad
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    But I already believe in One God. I do not associate partners to him..God has no need of "partners". I know God is nothing like his creation..that is why He is God. I know he does not Beget or is begotten.. So that just leaves the question of Mohammed as Prophet....or final Prophet...

    Romanticised!!!! There is nothing romantic against sinning against our God. To say they simply made a mistake, were tricked and then were simply forgiven and sent to live out there days on earth..is a IMHO a very simplistic view. It takes no account of the holiness of Our Gods nature, how every sin no matter how small is an affront to that holiness..Our God tells sin has to be paid for, this is clear in the Quran as well as Holy Bible surely...if God is to be just as we'll as merciful then we must pay a price for our sin, just as a criminal pays the price to society for his crime we also pay to God. To say that God simply forgives sins as and when goes against the concept of Gods holy justice..which if God is to be just it has to be the same for everyone. The wages of sin is death... Adam and Eve were meant to exist with Our God as his perfect creation, there sin had huge consequences for themselves and all mankind. There's and ours an earthly death. For our earthly death not to be the end of our eternal relationship with our Heavenly Father then Gods came up with the solution... Yeshua. Also just to add.. None of us are party in knowledge of Almighty Gods ultimate plan except that which He chooses to relay to us through his Prophets and signs.

    What is man kinds last chance of salvation according to Islam?

    Neither you me i feel... best we agree to disagree. :) if every christian read their scriptures in Aramaic then I'm sure they would likely agree with you that if the word "muslim" means submitting to God then many of the Prophets would be considered such. But is that how the word Muslim is understood today? In general terms ask any non Muslim they would say a Muslim is a person who follows the teachings of Prophet Mohammed. So just making the claim for the word Muslim is a case of linguistic semantics, in today's world, except for maybe academic circles..the word Muslim for non Muslims will have no connection with their scriptures or Prophets. That's the way the cookie crumbles..

    Peace and blessings. C
  7. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    CONTRADICTIONS galore! What about Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)?

    If think he is not the final messenger to mankind then that is fine.

    Sahih International
    And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. 18:29

    When one sins then all he or she has to do is sincerely repent to God and He will forgive whom He Wills as He is the Most Forgiving and the Most Merciful. Very simple. The wages of sin is death only if you do not repent nor are remorseful for your sinful actions. We do not inherit the sins of our fathers, everybody is responsible for their own sins and one cannot carry another's sin. Surely that would be a great injustice?

    It is simply that you believe in One God who is the Creator of everything and that you do not associate partners to Him and you do not worship anything or anybody besides Him. Also to believe in Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) as a slave and messenger of God. Then to obey God and His final messenger.


    It's funny how the Bible is lost in translation. Hebrew to Greek to English seems to have three different meanings completely. Does anybody know where the original Bible is and in which language it was written in?
  8. AbuKhalid
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    sorry not sure how to quote portions ...

    Cariad said "I think it was sent to the pagans of Arabia and the first Arabic prophet was chosen by Our God to deliver it. As it is so intrinsically wrapped in the language and traditions of that region. This is just my idea.. "

    Think about who Jesus was sent to and in what language. Also, look at the traditions of that society. What I mean is that what you claimed for islam can be applied to other religions.

    God knows where to place His message ... the timing, its people ... its all perfect! The people of Arabia had the perfect qualities to carry the message. Arabs were trading as far as India and eastern europe and africa, language wasnt a problem. Within the lifetime of the prophet, peace be upon him, Islam had reached all these and in the lifetime of Umar it reached as far as China. Muhammad prophecised that Islam will enter every house and that has become true! Any other language and it wouldnt be preserved perfectly ... until now, scholars write books in fus-ha, Quranic Arabic.

    1 more thing ... you asked if your prayers are less acceptable given you arent Muslim ... the truth is that God accepts invocations no matter who you are, so ask Him for guidance. To end, I noticed you said " prophet ... chosen by Our God" do you agree he was a prophet sent by God then?
  9. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    No I do not think Mohammed was the final messenger. I do not see that as an obstacle in worshipping God.

    I think we already covered this. Our God does make it perfectly clear that sins must be paid for and how they should be paid. Yes, He is merciful, Yes he is forgiving, and we are told if we are truly repentant our sins will be forgiven. Yet that does not change the fact that God is also just, and has to apply his perfect justice to all us sinners. By accepting Yeshua and his saving Grace...as Yeshua told us.. This does not mean our sins are forgiven .. Just like that, they still have to be paid for. It simply means the veil between us sinners and God, there by the actions of the original sin, is lifted. My sins are mine, my fathers sins were his and so on. I am not answerable for anyone else's sin except my own. The wages of sin is death...means eternal death of ones soul.

    I'm thinking this is one of those straw man arguments.. Ya. :D not worthy of response..

    May I ask a personal question of you Abu Loren? Please do not feel obliged to reply if you would rather not, it is simply my curiosity..:) you imply you are recent convert to Islam ( forgive me if this is not so) may I ask did you have religion before? If you were a Christian ..did you ever read the Holy Bible? I mean read it, not just bits. Hope you do not mind my asking, as I say please do not feel obliged to reply.

    Peace and blessings. C
  10. Cariad
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    Hello Abu Khalid

    Do you also have a blank box where to place your reply? This is what I have with no facility to post I think it is a fault. I reported it but it has not been corrected. Someone took the time.. I believe it was Hassan.. To explain to me the instructions for BB codes (enabling one to quote...although it is time consuming..) can be found in the help section.

    Yes it can be applied to other religions. But we do not make the claim that to know God of the Bible we have to first learn Aramaic, Hebrew or Koine Greek. I have heard it said that reading the Quran in any other language apart from Arabic is not good enough to understand the whole message. Why would Our Holy God put such a restriction on his word? The traditions of the time between the both scriptures given a period of 600 years I would say the same would apply, but the message has stood for thousands of years so this shows that Gods message does not fit in any one time frame but is for all people and for all time.

    I'm not sure I'm seeing the timing issue and the connection of the people's of Arabia being traders. This was the case in many parts of the world long before the Quran. Christianity had spread to Arabia and other places in the world long before the Quran. True Islam did spread quickly in may parts of the world, usually conquered lands. Much of North Africa was Christian... We could ask were these people's invited to accept Islam or were they told. But that is history and controversial. Also we probably do not want to be opening up cans of worms as on both sides in this instance we have blood stains on hands.

    I use the word Prophet because it is respectful to those who believe so. As a Christian I have to apply the laws Yeshua gave us to test a prophet. We can never test Our God, because God is beyond us, but we are told to test his messengers. Prophet Mohammed did not pass the tests given to us by Yahweh in the Bible, if he had then the Jews and Christians of the time would have accepted him as such and we would all be Muslim now ..ya. However this does not mean that Mohammed was not a man chosen by Our God, Yahweh chose many messengers to do his work, they were not all prophets.

    But it is enough for me to see that as Muslims you love and respect Mohammed and hold him in the highest esteem as YOUR prophet. I respect that, although I do not have to believe you are right any more than you have to believe that I may be right as a Christian.... Bet that won't cross your mind tho ;) I truly believe Our God is bigger than all his Prophets, messengers and followers, for that reason I also believe Our God would not turn his back on a soul he Created out of love if that soul was a good one. All prayers offered to Our God with a sincere and loving heart are worthy.

    When everything is striped away it comes down to the simple fact that there are but two types of people in the world.. GOOD and BAD.

    Peace and blessings. C
  11. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    This statement is not a surprise as it is coming from a Christian.

    The wages of sin is death. Therefore ALL human beings are sinners and ALL human beings will die the eternal death, nobody will be saved.

    So now can you see the Mercy of the One True God? He forgives whom He Wills. Therefore some people have a chance of attaining Paradise. Subhan Allah.

    Actually it is worthy of a response as many scholars agree that there are errors in translation of the Bible from one language to another. Hence the reason why the Noble Qur'an must be read in Arabic to get the full meaning. Even with this the scholars agree that the full meaning of certain words cannot be adequately translated as it would lose the true meaning of the context in which it was written.


    I took the Shahada on 31 October 2011 and Alhamdulilah my imaan keeps increasing on a daily basis.

    I was born to a Catholic family and I remember even from an early age I felt nothing when going to church and looking at the giant figure crucified and bloody. Looking back now, I think I thought to my self how can that man be god?

    During my teens I stopped attending church and lived a life so far away from religion. I flirted with atheism as it appealed to me at the time, living a life according to your own rules and not taking responsibility for anything. Of course, this mind set can give you a false sense of security as your sinful actions, you feel, have no consequences.

    Yes, I've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation a few times and at the time of reading it I felt that it was indeed the words of God. I didn't think much about what I was reading except that I thought that the narrative was the truth. It was after my conversion that Muslims pointed out the false accounts of Prophets within the Bible. For example, the story of Prophet Lut (Alayhi Salaam) being seduced by his own daughters and having sexual relations with them AudhuBillah. Also the story of Prophet Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) getting drunk and appearing naked to his family. Audhu Billah.

    I truly believe that the Noble Qur'an corrects the mistakes contained in the Bible.

    I urge you to read an English translation of the Noble Qur'an. I'm not trying to convert you to Islam, rather you will be able to argue with knowledge rather than clutching at straws.
  12. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    If you'll permit me to answer this.

    The Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) sent letters to the leaders of neighbouring lands of Arabia. He sent Muslim Ambassadors to Heracles the leader of the Byzantine Empire, the Negus king of Abyssinia, the king of Persia, the leader of Yemen and the leaders of Oman. They all replied back that what Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was saying is the truth, however only the leaders of Yemen and Oman accepted Islam. All the rest were fearful of losing their power within their dominions.

    If you have time please go through the following videos about the life of the Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallm).

  13. AbuKhalid
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    QUOTE from Cariad" instructions for BB codes"
    - Thx for the tip, i'll look into that inshaAllah

    QUOTE "I have heard it said that reading the Quran in any other language apart from Arabic is not good enough "
    - Again same applies for any other thing, understanding a translation of a languague instead of the actual language itself is lacking in many ways ... I know 4 languages alhamdulillah, and I always see the difference when looking at translations. The originals bring you closer to the author .. I'm sure any multilingual person would say the same. Now, YEs, its not good enough to just know the transl. only if you want that closeness! but otherwise, its fine! You read an english transl of quran, you get the idea, You get the message. So this is more of a logical point.

    QUOTE: "I'm not sure I'm seeing the timing issue and the connection of the people's of Arabia being traders."
    - SOrry, I didnt give enough details there but you can read " ThE sealed nectar" ... Abu Loren gave a good link also. The arabs had all the characteristics needed at that time to preserve the original message and spread it ... unlike any other nation or place.

    QUOTE: "We could ask were these people's invited to accept Islam or were they told. But that is history and controversial."
    - not at all! again another logical question (and historical also) ... look, the JEws were spreading Judaism in Southern Arabia, which led Abraha the Ethiopian christian to conquer and spread christianity .. however, none survived cuz ppl were forced. You can force a religion but faith is in the heart. So it wont survive among its people. Unlike these, Islam spread gradually ... it was a real conquest (of the hearts)

    QUOTE "but we are told to test his messengers. "
    - What are the criteria. plz give me the refs.

    QUOTE: "there are but two types of people in the world.. GOOD and BAD."
    - no doubt its true but its not the complete picture. I can be the best behaving student in class, lending my books and pens to others, listening to the teacher etc... but if I dont do my assignments and study for exams ... I havent achieved what I came to school for!

    QUOTE from Abu Loren "false accounts of Prophets within the Bible"
    - good point there brother, we see the hate the children of Israel had for the prophets ... They wanted to kill Jesus and they got away with killing John the Baptist peace be upon them and these stories in the bible reflect their manipulations. As you said, Islam came to correct these and bring them to the correct understanding
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  14. Hassan
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    Hassan Laa ilaha ilaa Allah Staff Member

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    :salam:
    On the menu up there ^^ select Help > BB Codes. They should be clear, in shaa Allah
  15. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    :)

    First part you are right on the money.. However, can there be mercy in the absence of justice? To simply say ... He forgives whom he wills.. Does not take into account Our Gods holiness. Sins also have to be judged, and paid for. Of course knowing that Our Gods mercy and love is infinite then I know that everyone who deserves to will enter Heaven, or for yourselves Paradise.

    Well, it has to be said that reading any book in its original form is bound to be better. As I understand there as many textual errors in the English translations of the Quran, and its recommended to read at least three different translations to get the gist. By the way my copy, which I have read, is a Pickthal version, oldish edition. I have only read the one and so maybe that's why it makes little sense...or maybe it is not deemed a good translation. Although it was sold to be as a reliable one. Again tho..would Our God make his word so difficult as to restrict its language to one, Arabic.

    I kind of guessed that if you had have been a Christian it would have been a Catholic. :) as it is usually Catholics that convert to Islam, not always of course but in my experience I find so. I only have been in a Catholic Church once but do not recall any giant crucified bloody figure.. Maybe not all Catholic Churches have this. Sounds scary..

    Many teens I think reach a crisis point regards matters of religion, maybe part of conforming with rebellious youth it is not seen as cool. Lol I must have been a boring conforming youth..as it was a big part of my formative years. It was only after my husbands death that I lost God, but that was my own anger and bitterness not a denial of God. I came to realised God never left me and the guidance of his Holy Spirit stayed with me to show me the way back.

    Interesting what you say, that you read the Bible, until the Muslims pointed out to you the false accounts within..but what proof was there that their account was true and the Bibles were in error? Is it purely a feel good factor, like the belief that God would only have good righteous people as Prophets, perfect people, who never drank wine to excess or told a lie or was violent towards another or was sexually immoral or weak and succumbed easily to lustful desires. As Our God chose his prophets from among his creation..us..and as we are all sinners then it makes the Biblical version of the Prophets far more a realistic option, not to mention more truthful. Also if all these Prophets were in fact only ever good and righteous what lessons were we to learn from their example? seeing as the rest of us sinners could never hope to match up to their high standards, thereby setting us up for failiure before we even start. I like the way the Bible shows the consequences of the actions of the Prophets when they behave like humans and sometimes get things wrong, it is here i believe we get our greatest lessons on what our God wishes us to do.

    Is it that muslims have this idea that just as God is holy then so must be his messengers?

    The Bible has no mistakes for me, as Our God cannot make mistakes. I am pleased you found your faith in God again and he welcomes your prayers.

    Where are these straws I am clutching???? :)

    Thank you for the Video clip, I have not the time at present but will watch it when I have.

    peace and blessings. C
  16. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    Hello Abu Kahlid, I will reply to your post, but do not have time this evening. Please do not think I am ignoring it and being discourteous by not replying.

    blessings. C
  17. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    I'll let you in on a little secret that millions of Christians are not probably aware of. That is when we sin we have to repent wholeheartedly to God and promise to yourself that you will not commit that sin again. So the secret is repentance or tawba in Arabic. If you know that Gods mercy and love is infinite then why can't you understand that He can forgive whom He wills? He has given us in His infinite mercy rules and regulations for human beings to follow. Just like in any society on earth, if we do not follow the law then we are deemed criminals, the same rule applies if we do not obey His commands, those who do not are mere criminals who will be judged accordingly.

    I recommend you read it online. Try www.quran.com it has six different English translations.

    A romantacised view in my opinion. All Prophet of God needed to have qualities that no ordinary men possess. For example, they were all righteous, truthful, pious etc.

    Only God is holy. All the Messengers and Prophets of God had special qualities that made them special.

    If you believe what you believe then what you are saying is that as soon as Prophet Lut (Alayhi Salaam) and his daughters were saved from Sodom (knowing what went on there)
    as soon as they were saved the daughters conspired to trick their father into committing incest?

    The Bible has no mistakes for you because you are not looking for it. It is like blindly following something because you don't know any better. No offence intended, I'm just giving an example.

    Probably a subject for another thread but I don't know if you are aware that the name or the prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was deliberately omitted from both the Old and the New Testaments.

    Also the Jews had settled in the area close to Yathrib or Madina because they were expecting a Prophet from that area (this was also in their books) but when the Prophet appeared to them they rejected him because he was from the line of Prophet Ismail (Alayhi Salaam) and hence they rejected him because he was an Arab.

    (You'll get better explanation in the videos I posted). I hope you take the time to watch them In Shaa Allah.
  18. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    We can agree on this point that anything is better written in its original language, however being unable to read that language should not be a barrier to understanding the message. language evolves, we must therefore have translations in many diverse languages as there are in the world. I too am multi lingual, English is not my mother tongue ... although as good as :) I can read my Bible in English and my mother tongue, which is cymraeg..otherwise known as welsh. The message remains the same, even tho there are many words in English which do not have a welsh equivalent. Yahweh told us that his message for man kinds salvation would be known by every person on earth and in every tongue.

    I do not see how the Arabs were in any way special in this way at this time in history. Gods word had been spread thousand years before the Arabs even knew it.

    Well, there are different views on this. Many historical accounts do claim that Islam was spread by the sword and indeed there were many battles fought. However, I do not believe it is possible for anyone to be converted to another religion by force, maybe outwardly, if they believed their life depended on it, but inwardly they will always have their own personal relationship with God. Ultimately ones faith in God is a private thing between God and oneself. I think I said of my knowledge of someone I know who converted to Islam just so he could marry the woman he loved... He claims in his heart he is still a Christian and that's where it counts because God reads our hearts before all else.

    The Seven Bible Tests of a True Prophet

    Numbers 12:6 "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream."

    Meaning..Often God uses dreams and visions to reveal His will to mankind.

    Isaiah 8:20. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."

    The "law" here is a reference to the "Law of Moses," the first five books of the Old Testament, which also contain the Ten Commandments law, and "testimony" is a reference to the rest of the Old Testament, and by extension including the New Testament, which also contains the "testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17), that both together explain what the "Law of Moses" means in mankind's practical experience.

    Meaning..True prophet's sayings are totally consistent with all that the Holy Spirit has already revealed in Scripture.

    Jeremiah 23:14. "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness. v.16, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD."

    Meaning...True prophets will reprove other prophet's sins, rather than conspire to support one-another's claims.

    Jeremiah 28:9. "The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, [then] shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him."

    Meaning..True prophet's predictions must come to pass, ALL of them.

    Matthew 7:15. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. ... Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. ...Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

    Meaning..True prophets lead people to repentance and humility before God, and to love their fellow humans. They never lead people to become competitive, prideful or self-exalting.

    1 John 4:2. "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" (See also Hebrews 4:15. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.")

    Meaning..True prophets confess that Jesus came in our "fallen" human flesh, yet He got the victory over every sin and all sin, just as we can, through connection with His Father and our Father.

    Daniel 10:17. "For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me."

    Meaning..True prophets have no strength or breath of their own while in vision, but supernatural strength from God.

    John .1:15. "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

    Meaning..True prophets exalt Christ alone, but never their own abilities.

    No, no..it was not hate, at least for the majority of the people. There is always a section of any society, usually those who hold the power who will always place their own opinions above all.. Even above the truth if it serves their self seeking ambitions. This was the case for many of the Biblical Prophets, because Gods word which they brought to the people were often diametrically opposed to their own power base which of course they want to hold on to above all else. Yahweh tells his prophets by doing his work many will be opposed and persecuted, the truth is often hard for many people to hear. Yahweh knows this, and arms his prophets accordingly and they are invincible before their foe.

    Yeshua, told us he came to the world to die, he did the Fathers will.

    Islam did not correct these accounts, it sanitised them, making them more in keeping with the Muslim view of Prophets being perfect. On that points the Quran itself does not make this claim, it is said that Moses had an anger and killed a person, David lied.. I'm sure there are more but that is all I can recall. So these were not perfect..but sinners. As we all are, and as such we are all in need of Our Gods saving grace.

    Peace and blessings. C
  19. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) had dreams and visions from God and he was also visited by Archangel Jibreel (Alayhi Salaam) with revelations.

    Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alyhi Wa Sallam) confirmed the Torah and the Laws of Musa (Alayhi Salaam). The Law, however, was only for the Children of Israel and Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was given different Laws which called The Shari'a in Arabic.

    Jeremiah was a priest of the Temple of Solomon, I don't know if he was a prophet because he is not mentioned in the Noble Qur'an.

    Some of the Prophecies of Prophet Muhammad have already came true and are coming true right this minute, especially prophecies concerning the final days.

    Exactly what Prophet Muhammad did and taught.

    I think people have misunderstood this verse. Try substuting "flesh is of God" to "flesh from God" and you will see the difference. Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was sent FROM God and not OF GOD. This is exactly what Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alyhi Wa Sallam) taught.

    Exactly. Try reading the 'seera' or the life of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)

    Exalting Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) as he truly was , a mighty Prophet and Messenger of God and not God incarnate.





    Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) taught the true nature of Jesus (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). All Christians should take heed and change their ways in order to save themselves.
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  20. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    Mrs Cariad,

    It's quite embarrassing reading your posts when you make statements like "Prophet Muhammad failed the test of prophet hood" as you've already admitted that you've never ever read the Noble Qur'an fully, never read any Hadiths nor read the 'serra' or the life of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

    No offence but it looks like you are putting your own views and prejudices across without knowledge. All you've ever written here are your personal opinions without any factual foundation.

    When I first got to know you on this forum I've asked you to go and read the Noble Qur'an cover to cover and read the Hadiths to at least make comments.

    Again no offence intended it's just what I've noticed.

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