Christian V Muslim dialogue

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by Abu Loren, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    Does this cut both ways? Can you say you don't put your own bias on the opinions you form..I fact isn't it a natural think to do. I would expect a Muslim first and foremost to regard their own scripture as truth. Why would it be wrong for me to have the same faith in mine? Maybe I misunderstand the point being made here.

    Yes it makes sense, because this story also has an allegorical meaning later in the Bible. How can you say with any certainty that Moses never did have doubts as any mortal man would doubt? You think it is not an important attribute for a prophet to trust in God totally? God demands trust in those he chooses to serve in his name, but at the same time God also knows our weaknesses. God cannot ignore sin, any sin is an affront to God.

    Let me ask you, do you revere and respect the opinions and wishes of your father? Do you accord the respect towards him as a loving son? I would guess that you would reply ...yes. Do you also accept that your father has at some point in his life sinned, I would say if he was human...you would say yes. But knowing that you can still love and respect your father the same and see past his shortcomings to the good man he is.

    Same for Our God, he can see past our shortcomings yet still loves us. Like a father who punishes a wayward child out of love for that child and to teach it a lesson in the future, so Our God has to show his displeasure when we fail him. Any sin is an affront to Our Gods holiness.

    The Christians I know would not believe any muslims would not hold the Bible prophets in the same regard as we do ourselves. Your Quran demand it of you. The Bible has these "immoral" stories because that's how it happened at the time. You may consider them immoral by today's standards but two thousand years ago maybe things were viewed differently. It also has to be said that these stories were usually shown as a lesson on how not to behave, that is by disobeying God or not having absolute faith in Gods ability to know what is best for us..his children. For example... Incest, today we all agree that it is wrong and no good can come of it, we look upon it as a sin. But it only became a sin when God decreed it so, before that God allowed it to propagate the human race, if we accept we all came from Adam and Eve there it stands to reason that there progeny would have had to had children. It goes someway to explain why Lots daughters did what they did, maybe they did not see their deed in the same sinful way as we do today.

    What you quote.. CONFIRMING what came down before it...I looked at the Quran.com to compare different versions and yes apart from minor textual difference this is what it says. It does NOT say anything about clarifying or correcting the previous scriptures. When did this come about? I think long after Mohammed, because no where does Mohammed ever claim the previous scriptures were corrupt. Unless you can show me this.. So if the Quran is to do what it was sent to do..CONFIRM.. The previous scriptures then it has to at least keep in line with the central theme of those scriptures which is, Gods redemptive work for mankind's salvation through Yeshua. Instead it denies it ever happened, and the substitution theory can't be taken seriously because that would imply that Our God was a trickster and deceived mankind thousands of years by making them follow lies. It also so not address the reason for the necessity of any death on the cross.. Why crucify another to fool people into thinking Yeshua had died? Just because you can't believe a just God would send his son to die for others, or as you believe Isa to be a prophet? Yeshua told himself of the manner of his death and what it was to mean for mankind. You see the crucifixion as a cruel act against a good prophet. Christians see it as the greatest display of love from Our God to his creation, the supreme act of sacrifice out of love for another and the way to be reunited with Him in heaven, where He wishes us to be.

    That's my take on it, makes perfect sense to me.

    Peace and blessings. C
  2. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    I am more than content..:) I would say I am 100% convinced, if you ask me how I feel this then I could not explain, because you would have to had lived my life and suffered my many trials and tribulations along the way, which I have come through the other side by the grace of God. Faith? Yes... But never blind.

    Why Islam is not for me, mainly that I cannot see I can have the same relationship with Our God as I do now. We share the same ideas of Our Gods supremacy over everything, we each recognise the fact that Our God is all powerful, we attribute the same qualities of divine justice and mercy. But for me it comes down to simple love, I love Our God with all my heart and all my soul just as Yeshua said we should love him, because he loves us. When I compare Allah seems distant and unreachable.

    All the things you say about Christians view of God, like wrong understanding of Gods nature, following blindly etc. from my side of the fence the same can be said of Muslims :) but this is just how we perceive each other, which really is not important. It is how we are perceived by God. Maybe you may think Our God only loves muslims I know He loves us all the same.

    Peace and blessings. C
  3. Cariad
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    Tired now... Going to bed.. I wish you all good night and God bless. X
  4. AbuKhalid
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    Thats what I said, you are not disbelieving in your scripture ... you are only the other one with an open mind ... i.e accept the truth where truth is. Can u imagine if the Jews (who regard their scripture as truth) weren't open to Jesus's teachings?


    Moses peace be upon him was a mortal man, PLUS a prophet of God. I believe God chose the best to reveal his message to ... By best, I mean in behaviour, character etc .. so that people can look up to them. But if you tell me that God would choose someone who wouldnt even trust Him ... then please define who a prophet is??

    are you serious? maybe for small mistakes ... i would think that God sends examplary men to show us HOW to behave ... not the other way around. I'm sure we can learn how NOt to behave from rejectors of the prophets.

    You are right. the verse I quoted above only shows the confirmation .. but if you read the Quran, you would have found in many places that it clarifies the previous scriptures and corrects.

    "People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book and forgive you much. A light has come to you from Allah and a glorious Book, with which He will guide whoever follows His pleasure in the way of peace, and brings them forth from darkness into the light by His will." (Quran 5:15-16)

    It is those clarifications and corrections, however, that you are disagreeing with. Of those that can be verified now, we have the flood of Noah .. it wasnt worldwide or the pharaoh in Quran 10:92 that he drowned and was preserved ... that Jesus peace be upon him spoke as a baby and defended her mother ... about creation, quran is more scientific etc...



    Thats how it was viewed by the romans and jews and every one else. There is no love in torture .. God is powerful enough to display His love without making His enemies happy



    like I said, it doesn't prove anything ... even to yourself. In Islam, we can explain why its the truth .. we don't have to be someone else (which of course is impossible).

    You said "Why Islam is not for me, mainly that I cannot see I can have the same relationship with Our God as I do now." - but what you dont realise is that Islam offers you even better relationship with God ... sorry ran out of time, maybe someone can add more info

    Thanks
  5. Cariad
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    Cariad Junior Member

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    Moses killed a man and hid the body..how does that action place him amidst the BEST of character etc? Do we see a prophet leading by example? But then would that person have to be superhuman to live up to that ideal. I do not believe that possible for humans. So they teach by example of their lives, they make mistakes, God shows us why this is not the right path. You are free of course to believe that the Prophets were all morally superior to the rest of mankind as is your prerogative. I believe they were ordinary people, specially chosen by God as it tells us in the Holy Bible.

    A prophet is a man or woman chosen by God for reasons only God knows to deliver his message to all mankind.

    For sure we can learn my good examples, but as any of us can fall to sin at any time then we also need to learn by example of the consequences of sin. You tell a child not to do something...the child goes right ahead and does it anyway. It's how we are made..God knows this so leaves nothing to chance.

    This is the problem I have here, if the Quran comes from a different God to mine, that is Yahweh, God of all the previous Prophets it then does not matter if it lives up to its claim of confirming the previous scriptures. If it stands alone on its own authority. Then I can accept what it says. However if it claims to carry on from the previous scripture...sort of a last edition as you think. Then for me I see problems.

    1. The Quran accepts the previous scriptures as coming from God. This is clear. It also claims that Gods word cannot be changed. So we have a problem there. If the Holy Bible was changed then it cannot be from God, by the Quran's standard, if the Quran is right in its claim that the previous scriptures were of divine origin then it has to confirm what the previous scriptures taught. Just as the Gospels follow on from the Old Testament, the Quran should follow on from the Gospels. .... It does not.

    2. God knows his word and knows what is mans. Why would God put into the Quran works from Gnostic Gospels ( Jesus talking as a baby and the clay birds) the Gnostics were written hundreds of years after the Holy Bible was canonised in its present form. They were never part of Gods word, but the words of men.

    3. The Holy Bible is a book primarily for mans spiritual well being and growth. It is not a book on science. But it has to be said that many of the claimed scientific miracles of the Quran had been known in the world centuries before.

    4. In order to correct something there has to be proof that the subject in question is actually at fault and in need of correction. There is no proof other than what is claimed in the Quran that the accounts in the Holy Bible did not occur exactly as they are recorded. Muslims take the greatest care in guarding the words of the Quran because they truly believe they are from God. Why do you suppose the Jews and the Christians would not take the same greatest of care in guarding their own scriptures?

    You obviously don't understand agape love. What makes you think the Jews and Romans were Gods enemies? As nothing happens except by Gods will I believe the Jews and Romans did Gods will. Yeshua knew the nature of his death before it happened, and he knew why.

    You mean my faith doesn't prove anything? Then surely the same can be said of yours. You can explain why it's truth..to you it seems so.. But that in itself does not make it true, as you can't see the truth I see in Christianity likewise for me with Islam. Because our faith tells us this is our truth. With faith, prove means nothing, in the absence of faith proof means everything.

    No, it does not offer me better than what I have. I am me, as God made me.... A daughter of God.

    Peace and blessings. C
  6. AbuKhalid
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    The God of all prophets is ONE God, and HE is Allah, the only One who deserves to be worshipped. HE revealed all the scriptures. That's not just my claim, its a fact.

    I believe you've jjust contradicted yourself! What happened to "confirming, clarifying and correcting"??

    Again that contradicts your own test of ""confirming, clarifying and correcting" if you can follow what I'm saying. Also plz give me ref where 'It also claims that Gods word cannot be changed' ... cuz maybe you misunderstood the idea here ... The original words of God are unchanged kept with him, as a proof against you and those who reject his messengers on the day of judgement. What is changed is by scribes, who wrote the books.

    Plz clarify what you mean ... would you follow the whole of the OT?

    The gnostic gospels were written from 200 AD ... The bible between 200 bc - 200AD FYI ... what 100's of years? Gnostic basically means knowledge .. which was passed down from teacher to student. Its possible that gnostics have some truths. More important, how does a man in Arabia, who is illiterate get all these details anyway??

    The Quran is a book of guidance not science ... Your claim above is straight from evangelical or anti islamic websites ... please find a better source if you want fair discussion

    sorry I have to stop here for now as I'm busy ... I hope someone can continue with the response. Thank you
  7. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    In hind sight may be this thread should be closed?

    This is my past experience with Christians, when push comes to shove they frequent anti Islamic websites for their ammunition. Like I said before after you've gained their trust initially, they then start to preach their religion making all kinds of weird and wonderful comments. My favourite being that the Qur'an is influenced by Gnostic beliefs and books.

    Sahih International
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
    Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
    2:6-7
  8. AbuKhalid
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    Ok back to finish the response ...

    Abu Loren, you're right ... Ive had similar experience b4 ... I hope the situation is different here. Let's carry on a lil bit more, we'll find out if those 'hints' are truely what they are In Sha-Allah.

    Your story of Moses is a good example of how the bible debases God's chosen messengers [See below for the corruptions in bible] But for us, he defended someone, didnt intend on killing anyone nor hide the body and he wasnt a prophet when that happened hence your question "Do we see a prophet leading by example?" is refuted and I responded to your 2nd question b4

    Other than the Quran saying that, the bible commentaries say so. You can read from this website: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV

    Here, with this verse I'm killing 2 birds with 1 stone .. Read from verse 24 i.e 1) also in response to why Jews would not guard their scripture. Here they are called rebellious and stiff necked 2) "In days to come, disasterwill fall on you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and arouse his anger by what your hands have made" : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 31&version=NIV

    Also, put in the search box Jeremiah 8:8 and read about how the scribes handled they law falsely ... It confirmed what Moses foretold
    Then search 1 John 5 and look at the footnote (a) ... I wonder why none of the early manuscripts included that?​
    Early christians and trinity "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching" http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm maybe you dont agree with this (and I dont intend to talk about the trinity itself) but the website ref'd it from The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
    We can keep going but I think its better if you read the bibles prefaces yourself and see what your scholars say so we can keep the discussion here more concise.​
    Depends, like I said ... if its blind faith, it doesnt! and you've just provided me with a good example thru your own words I quoted. What's the difference between you and a hindu if its all based on "Because our faith tells us this is our truth." Islam has the prroofs.​
  9. Cariad
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    Well I am pleased to hear you say that. At least there is something we can agree on. :)

    How so..contradicting? The Quran claims to "Confirm" you supplied the verse which you say "clarify and correct" what has gone before. Yet you do not see this is at all incongruous in keeping in line with the claim that Gods word cannot be changed. Not only does the Quran not follow on from the main theme of the Holy Bible, it is diametrically opposed to it..

    For ref:
    18:27

    Sahih International
    And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.
    From Quran.com

    If the original words are unchanged and kept by God. Then no human eyes have seen them. How is it possible to prove that mankind has misunderstood some words or replaced them with their own either during revelation or when being inscribed? The Holy Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit indwells in all those who have the task of delivering the message of God. This goes for oral or written. What have you? Word of Mohammed alone. It should also be noted here that the Angel Gabriel is NOT the same as the Holy Spirit.

    As a Christian I do follow the Old Testament. Yeshua said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill the law. We are not under the law but the law is now written on our hearts. The law is fulfilled through man being made new through the atonement. We are not Jews under Mosaic law but born again through Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is made up of the first five books of the Torah, Gods laws as given to Moses. The Jewish scriptures contain this and more, as I'm not Jewish I do not know what is in the rest of the Tanakh.

    God's plan was never to make man righteous by the law. The law was to reveal to man God's righteousness and man's sin. This shows your need for God which is your need for a Savior. God shared this truth through the prophet Jeremiah long before the birth of Christ...

    Jeremiah 31:

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    The law was to demonstrate your sin and your need for God and it is through him we are made new. The Old Testament we see as having vital importance to understanding the New Testament. (Gospels) the two books go hand in hand spanning a time period of 1500 years in the making. The Old Testament Prophets and what they tell prepares the way for the redemptive work of God for mankind's salvation through Yeshua. Then 600 years after Yeshua tells us Gods work is done and we are saved through him. Mohammed and the Quran tell us it was all a big mistake, that all the Hebrew prophets were wrong and the one Arab prophet was right. Then you wonder why a great many Christians cannot just accept in an easy way the Quran. How would you feel if another Prophet popped up in say..China ...and claimed all the previous scriptures were in error and his/her word was now the only truth. Would you immediately agree and put aside all you held true from Allah? Or would you question their claim?

    The Holy Bible was written over a period of 1500 years. The Gnostics were written over a period of time, mainly after the Gospels. The Gnostics lacked provenance and so they could not be included in Bible canon. The well known "Gnostic" the Gospel of Barnabas has been proven to be a forgery of the Middle Ages , so hundreds of years after the canonisation of the Holy Bible. Yet this does not seem to prevent the fact that many muslims hold it as proof to validate their claims. Although I understand that most of the more learned scholars have long ago recognised it as the forgery it is.

    There were a great many gnostic sects propagating their beliefs as a version of scripture weather they had any link to God or not. Many of these sects were in Arabia at that time, its highly likely Mohammed would have come into contact with them at some point, especially as he was known to travel the trade routes. Does being allegedly illiterate prevent a person from memorising a tale told to them?

    I consider this unfair. I do not need to visit evangelical or anti Islamic sites to form my opinion nor do I.

    http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/sciencemedicine/tp/042810GreekScientificInventions.01.htm

    Check this site, if you are in doubt that scientists and philosophers had been working in many feilds of science long, long before the Quran made like claims as revelation. Read about any ancient history it will tell you the same.

    If you do not feel we are having a fair discussion here then we shall end it now.. Because there would be no point in continuing. If the consensus is to end the dialogue then I would like to take this oportunity to thank you all for your participation, understanding and patience. I have found the experience both enlightening and enjoyable, that I am no nearer to becoming a Muslim and you have failed to see the truth of Christianity is immaterial.. We are who we are, and who we are meant to be. :D

    Peace and blessings. C x
  10. Cariad
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    Abu Loren and Abu Kahlid, it has taken me an age to compose my above reply and even longer to post it!!! Then I see you posted more points. I shall have to address these another time. Otherwise my husband will wonder why there is no dinner and no provisions to make one..:D

    But we should maybe think on Abu Lorens point with his hindsight, about closing the thread. If it seems like we are going round in circles, I leave the choice to you both. Because at the end of the day you do cannot accept my Holy Bible as prove and that in my eyes I see it as Our Gods word and I struggle to accept that the Quran is what it claims to be accept in your eyes. Hope that makes sense.

    Whatever you decide, I wish you both well. :)

    Peace and blessings. C
  11. Cariad
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    I just noticed..the error in my BB codes quoting skills, I am unable to correct it, so I hope it makes sense to read as your quote and my reply are in the same box!!!!!!! Phew. ..... The end. :)
  12. Hassan
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    ta da! :)

    regarding closing the thread, I'd rather not, although I agree there seem to be certain things being repeated so it may be time to leave it be a while.

    I'd rather hope you might manage to speak some words yourselves to show you can part on good terms after all that.
  13. AbuKhalid
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    Yeah ... I think we need to refocus here, the dialogue is going right and left. Actually, I jumped in the middle of the conversation and I apologize for that ... I dont know what the intent for the thread was. We do seem to repeat things .. so maybe we should restate the reason for dialogue and avoid the repeats

    I have answered that already in an earleir post

    Jesus preached the gospel, the true message from God ... its been heard but later tampered with. Once its been tampered with, the only way to know is by another revelation, in this case the Quran.

    You answered your own claim then "Just as the Gospels follow on from the Old Testament, the Quran should follow on from the Gospels. .... It does not"

    christians arent the only ones to claim that ... Ive seen others too ... not proof for the truth!

    I'd investigate to find out why they say its the truth

    typical evangelical stuff ... rather than making claims, I'd suggest to honestly look into the truth we say.

    thats all for today, dont forget to go back to our previous dialogues .. I did answer and raise questions. Thanks
  14. Cariad
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    Thank you Hassan, for your kindness shown, an help in using this forum. As you may see from my other post I think it best if I left the forum. It was never my intention to cause discord but it seems that way. Even this thread which was started with good intentions of Abu Loren, I see the beginnings of small personal attacks on my person. This is hurtful. I have enjoyed the dialogue here but maybe all good things must come to an end.. I feel I have come to my end. :)... At least here..ya.. Not forever end. :)

    To Abu Loren and Abu Kahlid apologies for not continuing further, it's not that I don't have my answers..words I have in abundance..:) never been short of them, as my family and friends would testify to. It's just that I see it going nowhere, except in circles..and I do not wish it to degenerate into personal insults, which I have seen early signs of so best end it now.

    Abu Loren you showed good perception at the very start of this thread when you said about having doubts about the usefulness to each party. Well, I see what you mean in a way, but still I have gained much knowledge and insight from the experience. I hope you have both at least come some way to understand how a Christian views their faith in Our Lord God. It was initially my wish to dispel some of the misconceptions I saw in this section about Christianity. Many I would expect to find on an anti Christian website. ;)

    Peace and blessings as ever, thank you for your time and patience during our dialogue here. All best wishes for the future. C xxx
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  15. AbuKhalid
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    True, things did start going in circles and theres no benefit in that.
    I have benefited from this discussion though. Please forgive me if I offended anyone
    May Allah guide us to the straight path.
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  16. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    My only concern was that you were starting to insult the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and Islam, knowingly or unknowingly. Such a shame because I was enjoying the exchanges that we had, if only to educate you further about Islam. ;)

    That's funny because we would say that we were correcting the faults and false views the Christians held.

    If I could just add this, the difference between me and you is that I can see the Truth and you cannot. This is not to belittle you in any way, if you could only see Islam through my eyes, you would see heaven and hell so clearly as if a veil has been lifted, as if you are seeing it as you see the sun.
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  17. noha basuni
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    Islam has given much unprecedented interest to the human rights enacting laws and legislations which guaranteed applying them under any circumstances.

    These laws, being inspired and decidedly revealed in Quran, are to be rewarded by God and also whoever violate them will be punished. These were ordinances and duties on ever Muslims, especially people in power.

    God says:

    "We have honored the children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favors, above a great part of Our creation." (Quran 17:70)

    So according to this verse a large part of the human rights of non-Muslims are based and, inspired by this Holy verse and many others Prophet Muhammad says:

    "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." (Abu Dawud)

    A famous story illustrates the degree to which the caliphs of early Islam protected the dignity of non-Muslims. Amr ibn al-As was the governor of Egypt. One of his sons beat up a Coptic Christian with a whip, saying, ‘I am the son of a nobleman!" The Copt went to Umar ibn al-Khattab, the Muslim caliph who resided in the city of Medina, and lodged a complaint. These are the details as related by Anas ibn Malik, the personal servant of the Prophet in his lifetime:

    "We were sitting with Umar ibn al-Khattab when an Egyptian came in and said, ‘Commander of the Faithful, I come to you as a refugee.' So, Umar asked him about his problem and he answered, Amr had a custom of letting his horses run free in Egypt. One day, I came by riding my mare. When I passed by a group of people, they looked at me. Muhammad, the son of Amr got up and came to me, saying, ‘I swear by the Lord of the Kaaba, this is my mare!' I responded, ‘I swear by the Lord of the Kaaba, the mare is mine!' He came up to me and began beating me with a whip, saying, ‘You may take her, because I am the son of a nobleman (meaning I am more generous than you).' The incident got to Amr, who feared that I might come to you, so he put me in jail. I escaped, and here I am before you."
  18. Abu Loren
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    Abu Loren Defender of Islam!

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    Forgive me for the ignorance but I don't know what you are trying to say here.

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