Discussion on Deobandis

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

It is very difficult if you are not from the subcontinent, as a female, to find a group that will educate you. I do not speak the language. I am limited to English. I read every book I have found in the libraries at the different masjids I have attended.

Most of the Arabs are not familiar with the Deobandi movement.

Can someone provide me with a robust link that helps me to understand the influence of the Deobandi on Taliban movement. How did the Deobandi shift away from the Sufi influence. It can be 1000 pages, that does not matter.

And what is up with those beautiful green turbans. I thought the brothers were from one of those countries that ends in a tan. They look great. Starched and stiff. It is impressive.
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
To all who have replied to the thread -

Your replies are based on what you have heard and read and viewed sitting in America. Is this the correct way to learn deen ?
I humbly request you to know the ground realities and come to the subcontinent. You have lots of misconception.
If any one of you are planning to come here to learn deen it will be spiritually beneficial to you.
Otherwise do not comment based on assumptions and heresay and what you find on the net.
Lots of info on the net is dubious. You must be learned to differentiate between truth and falsehood.

and regarding one reply that there is darul uloom in bury,england , i know that and i have included all darul ulooms not only deoband.
and from your reply that " Was not Iqbal one of the best of the deobandi?" shows that you need to learn so much.
and this-
because the Qur�aan, Sunnah and consensus of the Sahaabah are the sources of guidance in their view you are objecting to THIS ???
and
These are the guys with the Green Turbans? Those are barelawis.
..I read that Pakistani is becoming more Shia? No they are not.

Please forgive me if by any means i have hurt you. But it hurts me MOST when i read your comments some of which are frankly very far from truth.Also, i am a student of deen like you and it pains me that i cannot give a more scholarly reply to you all.

I humbly request you to get in touch with the ulemas of the subcontinent. As one of you said, if you are in england than darul uloom in bury is also an excellent place to learn.
There are many ulemas who graduated from the darul ulooms who are now in south africa but i dont know if there are any in america.
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
Asslamaliekum warahmatullahi wabrakatu,

Initially I had deleted this, however I thought I should put it back to show Brother mohammadyunus isn't adding anything from his own mind, rather this is the view of Darul Uloom Deoband. Here's a fatwa from Darul Ifta Deoband's site:

is their any restriction for muslim women going to mosque?
_______________________________

(Fatwa: 227/168=H/1429)

The instructions about hijab in the Quran and hadith require women not to go to mosque, especially they have been restricted in clear cut words to attend mosque for prayers. This masla has been proved with evidences in the book: Naik Bibiyan Namaz Kahan Parhain[Where should pious women offer salah].

Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala) knows Best

Darul Ifta,
Darul Uloom Deoband
*Text in [] is added by me, its not a part of fatwa.

can a woman go to offer namaz in mosque in mecca and medina many mosque allow it?but hadis says best prayer of woman is in innner coner of house. can we wear color lens?
___________________________

(Fatwa: 1808/D=283/K=1430)

Yes, it is proved from hadith. It is prohibited for women to visit mosques from the age of sahabah. Now also it is not allowed for women. Yes, she can go for tawaf in Holy Haram or in Madinah for visiting the holy grave of the Prophet (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم) and if the time of jama'ah comes along she can perform salah in the separate place meant for women, not at other places.

(2) One can wear it for any need or use.

Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala) knows Best

Darul Ifta,
Darul Uloom Deoband

Note: My Point of Posting this simply to present their view.
 

Aisya al-Humaira

الحمدلله على كل حال
Assalamua`alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

This is NOT a correct view:
First and foremost, Women are not supposed to pray in the mosque.

But this is true:
Its better for them if they pray at home.

Kindly read this long post that refutes your view that women are not allowed to go to the masjid.

She May Attend the Jama`ah (Congregational) Prayer in the Mosque

Islam has excused women from the obligation to attend the jama`ah prayer in the mosque, but at the same time, they are permitted to go out of the house to attend jama`ah on condition that they dress up well enough not to cause any temptation. Indeed, the first Muslim women did go out and pray in the mosque behind the Prophet (PBUH).

And: `A'ishah (May Allah be pleased with her) said:
"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) used to pray fajr, and the believing women would pray with him, wrapped up in their outer garments; then they would go back to their homes, and nobody would recognize them."7


"The believing women used to attend fajr prayer with the Messenger of Allah (PBUH), wrapped up in their outer garments. Then they would go back to their homes after they had finished praying, and no one would recognize them because of the darkness."

The Prophet (PBUH) used to shorten his prayer if he heard a child crying, because he understood the concern the child's mother would be feeling.
In a hadith whose authenticity is agreed upon he (PBUH) said: "I begin the prayer, intending to make it lengthy, but then I hear a child crying, so I shorten my prayer because I know the stress facing the mother because of his crying."8


Allah (SWT) showed great mercy to women by sparing them the obligation to offer the five compulsory prayers in congregation in the mosque. If He had made this obligatory, it would have placed an intolerable burden on women, and they would not have been able to fulfil it, just as we see many men failing to pray regularly in the mosque and finding themselves with no other choice but to pray wherever they are, in the workplace or in the home. The woman's heavy burden of household chores and attending to the needs of her husband and children do not permit her to leave the house five times a day; it would be impossible for her to do so. Thus the wisdom behind the limiting of compulsory attendance at the mosque to men only becomes quite clear. Her prayer at home is described as being better for her than her prayer in the mosque, but Allah (SWT) gives her the freedom of choice: she may pray at home if she wishes, or she may go out to pray in the mosque. If she asks her husband for permission to go out to the mosque, he is not allowed to stop her, as the Prophet (PBUH) stated in a number of hadith, for example:

"Do not stop your women from going to the mosque, although their houses are better for them."10

"If the wife of any of you asks for permission to go to the mosque, do not stop her." 11

The men heeded the command of the Prophet (PBUH), and allowed their women to go to the mosque even if this was against their own wishes. There is no clearer indication of this than the hadith of `Abdullah ibn `Umar, in which he said:

"One of `Umar's wives used to pray fajr and `isha' in congregation in the mosque. She was asked, `Why do you go out (to the mosque) when you know that `Umar dislikes this and is a jealous man?' She said, `What is stopping him from forbidding me (to do so)?' He said, `The words of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH): "Do not prevent the female servants of Allah (SWT) from attending the mosques of Allah (SWT)."'"12

In accordance with the Prophet's teaching which allowed women to attend the mosque, and forbade men to stop them from doing so, the mosques were full of women coming and going, both at the time of the Prophet (PBUH), and whenever it was possible in the following periods. Women would come to pray, attend lectures and classes, and take part in the public life of Islam. This was the case from the time congregational prayer was prescribed for the Muslims. The Muslims used to pray in the direction of Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem), before the qiblah was changed to the Holy Ka`bah. When the command of Allah (SWT) to take the Ka`bah as their qiblah was revealed, the men and women who were praying were facing towards Palestine, so they turned to face the direction of the Ka`bah, which meant that the men and women had to change places. 13

The mosque was, and still is, the centre of light and guidance for Muslim men and women; in its pure environment acts of worship are performed and from its minbar messages of truth and guidance are transmitted. From the dawn of Islam, the Muslim woman has had her role to play in the mosque. There are many sahih reports, which confirm the woman's presence and role in the mosque. They describe how women attended salat al-jumu`ah, the eclipse prayer, and the Eid prayers, responding to the call of the muezzin to join the prayer.

A report in Sahih Muslim tells us that Umm Hisham bint Harithah ibn al-Nu`man said:
"I never learned `Qaf. Wa'l-Qur'an al-majid . . .', except from the Prophet (PBUH) himself. He used to recite it from the minbar every Friday, when he addressed the people."14


Imam Muslim also narrates that the sister of `Amrah bint `Abd al-Rahman said:
"I learned `Qaf. Wa'l-Qur'an al-majid . . .' from the Prophet (PBUH) himself on Fridays, when he used to recite it from the minbar every Friday." 15


The Prophet (PBUH) taught the Muslims to prepare themselves and present a neat and clean appearance at jumu`ah prayers by encouraging both men and women to take a shower (ghusl):
"Whoever comes to jumu`ah, man or woman, should take a shower first."16

Hadith reports also tell us that Asma' bint Abi Bakr (May Allah be pleased with her) attended the eclipse prayer (salat al-kusuf) with the Prophet (PBUH). She could not hear the Prophet's words clearly, so she asked a man who was nearby what he was saying. This hadith is reported by Bukhari from As' herself:

"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) stood up to address us (after the eclipse prayer), and spoke about the testing that a person will undergo in the grave. When he mentioned that, the Muslims panicked somewhat, and this prevented me from hearing the latter part of the Prophet's speech. When the hubbub died down, I asked a man who was nearby, `May Allah bless you, what did the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) say at the end of his speech?' He said,`"It has been revealed to me that you will be tested in the grave with something similar in severity to the test (fitnah) of the Dajjal . . ."'17

Bukhari and Muslim also narrate another report from Asma', in which she says:
"There was a solar eclipse at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) . . . I finished what I was doing, then I came to the mosque. I saw the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) standing (in prayer), so I joined him. He stood for so long that I felt I needed to sit down, but I noticed a woman who looked weak and tired and said to myself: This woman is weaker than I, so I must continue to stand. Then he bowed, and remained in that position for a long time; then he raised his head and stood for such a long time that anyone who came in at this point would think that he had not yet bowed in ruku`. He completed the prayer when the eclipse was over, then he addressed the people, praising and glorifying Allah (SWT), and saying `Amma ba`d.'"18


During that golden era, the time of the Prophet (PBUH), the Muslim woman knew about her religion and was keen to understand the events and affairs that concerned the Muslims in this world and the next. When she heard the call to prayer, she would rush to the mosque to hear the words of the Prophet (PBUH) from the minbar, guiding and teaching the people.

Fatimah bint Qays, one of the earliest migrant women (muhajirat), said:
"The people were called to prayer, so I rushed with the others to the mosque, and prayed with the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). I was in the first row of women, which was just behind the last row of men.” 19


It is clear, from the sahih reports quoted above, that Muslim women attended the mosque on various occasions and that this attendance was an approved custom at the time of the Prophet (PBUH). Once, a woman was attacked on her way to the mosque, but this incident did not make the Prophet (PBUH) have any reservations about allowing women to go out to the mosque. He still allowed them to do so, and forbade men to prevent them, because there was so much benefit -spiritual, mental and otherwise - for them in attending the mosque from time to time.

7.Reported by Tirmidhi, 2/315, in Abwab al-rida', 11. He said it is a hasan sahih hadith.

8.Reported by al-Tabarani in al-Kabir, 1/181, 183. The men of its isnad are rijal al-sahih.

9.Reported by Tirmidhi, 3/245, in Abwab al-birr wa'l-silah, 61. The men of its isnad are thiqat.

10.Reported by Abu Ya'la and al-Tabarani in al-Awsat; the men of Abu Ya'la are thiqat. See Majma' al-Zawa'id, 8/22.

11.Reported by Ahmad, 3/502; its men are thiqat.

12.Reported by Ahmad, 1/403; its men are rijal al-sahih.

13.Bukhari and Muslim. See Riyad al-Salihin, 50, Bab al-sidq.

14.Shahadat al-zur may be interpreted in the following ways: bearing false witness by giving evidence that is false; assisting in something which implies fraud or falsehood; attending the gatherings of the kuffar on the occasion of their festivals. [Translator]

15.Bukhari and Muslim. See Riyad al-Salihin, 689, Bab ghalaz tahrim shahadah al-zur.

16.Sahih Muslim, 2/37, Kitab al-iman, bab bayan an al-din al-nasihah.

17.Bukhari and Muslim. See Sharh al-Sunnah, 13/92, Kitab al-birr wa'l-silah, bab al-nasihah.

18.Bukhari and Muslim. See Sharh al-Sunnah, 10/61, Kitab al-imarah wa'l-qada', bab al-ra'i mas'ul 'an ri'atihi.

19.Sahih Muslim, 13/38, Kitab al-imarah, bab fadl i'anah al-ghazi fi sabil-Allah.

This is just a little excerpt from the book "The Ideal Muslimah" which I highly recommend to all Muslim women who wish to adhere to her deen strongly. For more ahadeeth and seerah on the topic of the permissibility for women to pray at the masjid even during Eid, read from page 11-18.


Now, brother, do you mind bringing your evidence and daleel from the Qur`an and Sunnnah regarding your above statement as you said here:
There are numerous rulings of the darul ulooms in this regards.
I would really like to know some of the rulings which forbid women to go to the mosque.


Secondly, I have told it before here on TTI, that most of the members being from america, they hardly have any contact with the ulemas of Nizamuddin and Deoband.
Brother, it isn't where someone lives or come from that determine his/her faith. Yes, it would be better for a Muslim man/woman to live and study in an Islaamic country such as Makkah, Madeenah but that doesn't mean someone who lives in the West has lesser imaan than those living in India or Pakistan just because the latter have contact with the Deobandi Ulamaa`.

Also, it really puzzles me why you keep mentioning about making contact with the subcontinent scholars. Are not the Sunnah scholars from Saudi or for that matter even an Ustaaz from our very own country who is upon the way of the Salaf as-saleeh considered as trustworthy and reputable people from whom we should listen and learn from? Why limit it to only the subcontinent scholars?


Your replies are based on what you have heard and read and viewed sitting in America. Is this the correct way to learn deen?
Our replies are based on the Qur`an and Sunnah with how the sahaabah, tabi`en, tabi` tabieen understand it. So far, I haven't seen any evidences that you've brought to back up your statement. Perhaps such advice should be implemented on yourself first? JazaakaAllaahu khaayraa for the reminder though.

I've read quite some discussion about the Deobandi. I am no one to say whether they are upon the path or not, but to be on the safe side, I would follow the people of the Sunnah.

Wa barakaAllaahu feekum.

Wa`alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullah.
 

Aisya al-Humaira

الحمدلله على كل حال
Assalamua`alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

I hope you know that it wasn't my intention at all to point out who is sinful. That should be left to Allaah alone. What I was presenting is simply the evidences because whatever that we say regarding the deen especially on the halaal and haraam, whether it is allowed or not; it should be something that is clear. Thus why I asked the daleel regarding your claim.

I can't see where are the daleel on Brother Itqan's post that it "have been restricted in clear cut words to attend mosque for prayers" for the women.

I do agree that there are no scholars here in TTI and that we are all laymen but we certainly can learn a lot from each other.

Yes, in most Arab countries, the women don't regularly and actively go to the masjid. They are not actively involved in the masjid unlike in some places. In another hadeeth, the best place for a woman to pray is in her room but the Prophet sallallahu alayhi was-salaam doesn't forbid those who wish to go the masjid. A masjid shouldn't be seen only as a place of worship but a place that can strengthens the ummaah.

I hope something fruitful will come out from this discussion.

Wa`alaykummusalaam wa rahmatullah.
 

tic_tac_toe

Junior Member
First and foremost, Women are not supposed to pray in the mosque. Its better for them if they pray at home. There are numerous rulings of the darul ulooms in this regards.
Secondly, I have told it before here on TTI, that most of the members being from america, they hardly have any contact with the ulemas of Nizamuddin and Deoband.
Remember, its one thing to read from the books and completely different to personally listen from a shaikh.
TTI members are very far away from the illustrious ulemas of our age. Thats the problem.
Aapa, I wish to sincerely advice you to stay with aalimas of the subcontinent and spend time with the masturat jamaat.
The taqwa of Allahwallas you will encounter in india,pakistan is something you will never experience in america.

:bismillah1:
:salam2:

Alhumdolillah its better for women to pray not only at home but also the most secluded portion of her home as explicitly ordered to do so in Hadeeth. However I don't know of no Scholars in Islam who have ruled that its Haram for women to pray at the Mosque. If you have any such Fatwa please point to it.

:jazaak:

:wasalam:
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Two thoughts.

1. It makes absolute sense to pray in the most secluded part of the house. I have read where many scholars prayed in the dark so they would not be distracted.

2. I can only speak for some sisters in the US. We, for many reasons, attend the masjid as Sister Alf stated to be part of a community. We spend our time doing volunteer work at the masjid. We do not participate in the activities of the duyna. For numerous reasons, all valid, we venture out of our homes to become part of a community. We busy ourselves with good deeds. We remove ourselves from the temptations of the duyna. Let's leave it at that for the moment.

Can someone answer my questions about the connection of the Deobandi and the Taliban. And please educate me on why Iqbal would not be considered a major figure in the original Deobandi movement. His thoughts are probably some of the more profound in Islam for returning to the Sunna and Quran. Did he not demand that we examine what we were doing?
 

tic_tac_toe

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,

Two thoughts.

1. It makes absolute sense to pray in the most secluded part of the house. I have read where many scholars prayed in the dark so they would not be distracted.

2. I can only speak for some sisters in the US. We, for many reasons, attend the masjid as Sister Alf stated to be part of a community. We spend our time doing volunteer work at the masjid. We do not participate in the activities of the duyna. For numerous reasons, all valid, we venture out of our homes to become part of a community. We busy ourselves with good deeds. We remove ourselves from the temptations of the duyna. Let's leave it at that for the moment.

Agreed.

Can someone answer my questions about the connection of the Deobandi and the Taliban. And please educate me on why Iqbal would not be considered a major figure in the original Deobandi movement. His thoughts are probably some of the more profound in Islam for returning to the Sunna and Quran. Did he not demand that we examine what we were doing?

:) Very controversial :)
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Not trying to be controversial. I am trying to get things lined up. I have read Iqbal. He is fundamentally sound. A little heady for me. He makes a lot of sense.

I am trying to get an accurate historical and spiritual grasp.

I see Iqbal as the subcontinental personality attempting to wake up Muslims during the era of the rise of Zionism.
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,

Not trying to be controversial. I am trying to get things lined up. I have read Iqbal. He is fundamentally sound. A little heady for me. He makes a lot of sense.

I am trying to get an accurate historical and spiritual grasp.

I see Iqbal as the subcontinental personality attempting to wake up Muslims during the era of the rise of Zionism.

Please visit http://darululoom-deoband.org
Leave iqbal. He was neither a mufti or maulana.He has got nothing to do with the darul uloom deoband.
Also, did you visit the websites i posted earlier? If not then please do so...
 

azad.ahmed

Junior Member
Assalaam alaikum,

Two thoughts.

1. It makes absolute sense to pray in the most secluded part of the house. I have read where many scholars prayed in the dark so they would not be distracted.

2. I can only speak for some sisters in the US. We, for many reasons, attend the masjid as Sister Alf stated to be part of a community. We spend our time doing volunteer work at the masjid. We do not participate in the activities of the duyna. For numerous reasons, all valid, we venture out of our homes to become part of a community. We busy ourselves with good deeds. We remove ourselves from the temptations of the duyna. Let's leave it at that for the moment.

Can someone answer my questions about the connection of the Deobandi and the Taliban. And please educate me on why Iqbal would not be considered a major figure in the original Deobandi movement. His thoughts are probably some of the more profound in Islam for returning to the Sunna and Quran. Did he not demand that we examine what we were doing?
Almost all leaders and fighters of taliban are educated at Deobandi madarsa including mullah umar . he attended the Deobandi Darul Uloom Haqqania madrassa in Akora Khattak, in Peshawar, Pakistan.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Since you are from the subcontinent and you know better who Deobandi is, can brother Yunus, pls answer following questions:

Deobandi, is it a school or sect?

Is Deobandi ban women going to masjid? If yes, pls provide reason.

I know you provide the link. But I do also want to know what you have learned and understood from Deobandi. I do not want you pass a wrong fatwa, you need a chance to explain what you have said. Anyone may provide link, but the question do you understand what you have learned?
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Since you are from the subcontinent and you know better who Deobandi is, can brother Yunus, pls answer following questions:

Deobandi, is it a school or sect?

Is Deobandi ban women going to masjid? If yes, pls provide reason.

I know you provide the link. But I do also want to know what you have learned and understood from Deobandi. I do not want you pass a wrong fatwa, you need a chance to explain what you have said. Anyone may provide link, but the question do you understand what you have learned?

it's a movement that was founded to preserve Islam in the subcontinent at a time of political unrest and oppression of Muslims under the British Empire in the form of a madrasah and it produced some of the most knowledgeable and renowned Muslim scholars and jurists of the Muslim world. People who follow the teachings of those Ulama are said to be Deobandi but Deobandis do not exclusively consider only themselves to be on the right path; in other words, the Deobandi way isn't the only way. Obviously there will be differences in belief among those who follow different Ulama because it all boils down to interpretation of sacred texts but as a whole, although we believe that the Sunni way is the only way, not following the Sunni Deobandi Ulama doesn't remove you from the fold of Islam or mean you have incorrect beliefs.

The track of Darul Uloom Deoband is in accordance with the Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, Hanafi Madhab and Mashrab of its holy founders, Hazrat Maulana Mohammad Qasim Nanautavi and Hazrat Maulana Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi.

All its rulings and fatwa are in accordance with the above.

The reason i provide the link is because i am a deficient muslim. I am not able to advocate the preachings as it ought to be. The links that i provide are of the akabareens and allahwallahs who have the love of Allah burning in their hearts. I request you all to at least read 1 book and listen to only 1 bayaan from each of the link that i have provided.
Arifbillah maulana Hakeem Akthar saheb, Maulana Zulfiqar Ahmed Naqshbandi and Maulana Yunus Patel. Do me a favor and please read their books and listen to their bayaan and than kindly post your replies.
Make dua for me and may Allah guide us all.
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
and no it is not a separate sect.
It's a shame people consider "Deobandism" a sort of sect or something. Weren't there things like "the Ulama of Koofa", "the Ulama of Basra", "the Ulama of Shaam" etc in the past. So now "Ulama of Deoband" doesn't make it a separate sect, it just shows the success of Darul Uloom Deoband and the great amounts of Ulama who came from there or are affiliated to it, just like Koofa and Basrah in the past.

A person can be considered Deobandi in several senses. He can be an 'Aalim who has graduated from the Seminary in Deoband or its sister Institutions in Indo-Pak. He can be a resident of the town of Deoband. He can be an regular person who holds as true the beliefs of the ahlus sunna as explained by the Ahl al Haqq. In general in the sub continent, any rational Muslim who takes his deen from the Qur'an and Sunna and is well established on the fundamentals of Islam is a deobandi. The deobandi ulama prefer to call themselves as Qasmi because of their religious mashrab) being Shaykh Maulana Qasim Nanotwi
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Thank you for your reply. I'm happy to hear that they are still within the fold of Islam. But you call your self as "Deobandi"? I mean why many "Deobandi" call themselves as "Deobandi"? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

Thus it becomes evident that Deobandism is neither a creed (Mazhab) nor a sect, terms by which its antagonists try to incite the masses against it. But it is a comprehensive picture and a complete edition of the tack of the Ahl-e-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah in which all he offshoots of the Ahl-e-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah are seen joined with their root. What a fine succinct sentence the Poet of the East, the late Dr. Sir Shaikh Mohammad lqba!-and it be seemed him alone-had spoken about Deobandism! When someone asked him, "What thing is the Deobandi, a creed or a sect"? He replied: "It's neither a creed nor a sect; Deobandi is the name of every rationalist religious man"

http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/index.htm
 

hayat84

I'm not what you believe
I've seen watched some videos about the Deobandism.it blopped a question into my mind:the Prophet Muhammed SAWS recommended to his closest followers to spread the Message and to follow the Sunnah.are we derailing this topic?as mebers of tti,the ones who practise Islam,should talk about what our prophet said.or does Deobandism belong to Sunnah?please explain me,because I'm getting confused
 
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