Hi there

Kats

New Member
If you believe that there is only one GOD who is creator of the heavens and earth and everything in between ...then rest will become very easy for you brother.... believe me.

To become Muslim you are not required at all to learn ENOUGH ...only you need to be sure that only Allah is worthy of worship and Muhammad peace be upon him is HIS Messenger

Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

You only need to testify with your tongue, heart and soul that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is HIS messanger.

Pray is an imporatnt pillar of Islam but new reverts are not required to immidiately start praying in Arabic. Everything takes time and Allah is not unjust at all.

Peace and blessings be upon you brother. May Allah help you.

I don't know enough to believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, but thanks Binte.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Topics of the Quran

Topics of the Chapters
Makkan chapters generally consist of brief sentences which are full of enthusiasm, poetical, lofty and brilliant. They stress the Unity and Majesty of Allah, the Most Exalted, Most High (SWT), denounce idol worship, promise paradise for the righteous and warn wrongdoers of their punishment in Hellfire, confirm the prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH), and remind humanity of the past prophets and events of their time.

On the other hand, the Madinan chapters are lengthy and the verses are more prosaic. They outline ritualistic aspects of Islam such as Zakah, Fasting, and Hajj, lay down moral and ethical codes, criminal laws, social, economic, and state policies, give guidelines for foreign relations, rules and regulations for battle and the captives of war. They also contain descriptions of some of the early battles of Islam, condemnation of hypocrites, emphasis on the unified basic message of all the past prophets, and confirmation that the process of prophethood and revelation is complete, so that no Prophet will come after Muhammad [PBUH], no new book will be revealed, and Allah's religion is complete through Al-Quran. So here Allah [SWT] exhorted the followers of truth to make Al-Quran as their only guide.

Copied from


http://www.islam101.com/dawah/WhatIsQuran.html
 

rtbour

american muslima
Oh wow, I didn't know that shaytan was the name (or personification?) of evil. That's interesting.

Thank you so much Saif. You've really got me thinking about a lot of things but could you have a go at answering my posts -

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=350851&postcount=29

and here

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=350861&postcount=31

I'd really appreciate it!

I just wanted to let you know that Shaytan is actually Satan aka the Devil, ruler of Hell. Technically Shaytan (Satan) is not the word "evil" but is an evil being- the most evil being that exists. Hope I didn't confuse you with that. From my understanding, Jinn are like ghosts, spirits, angels, demons.
Also, I was wondering if you could tell me what Quran you are reading? Sometimes people make false translations of the Quran in an attempt to confuse and discourage people from being interested in Islam and finding the truth about it. I bought a book of Hadith once and it was so disgusting and morbid. I was really mad about the things I read in there until I showed it to my Muslim husband and he quickly confirmed it was written by someone who is well-known for trying to corrupt Islam. The Quran I have has English and Arabic writing in it. It is "The Quran" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. It seems to be a pretty accurate translation. You can get this Quran in book stores or you can get it free from some websites. I'll see if I can find the sites for you to get it free, if you don't already have a good Quran.
Did you know that you are not supposed to read Quran unless you are clean? You are supposed to perform wudu (a ritualistic way of cleaning yourself) before you touch and read it.
how to perform wudu: http://islamic-world.net/children/wudu'.htm
I hope I didn't confuse you.
 

BinteShafi

Left long ago
I don't know enough to believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, but thanks Binte.

Praise be to Allaah.

Praise be to Allaah Who has made good dear to you; we ask Him to give you guidance and faith.

With regard to the Quraan and the proof that it is the word of Allaah, these are specious arguments which were put forward out of stubbornness and arrogance by the first kaafirs to whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent. Allaah refuted what they said in many ways, proving their words to be false and pointing out what was wrong with it. For example:

1- This Quraan is challenge from Allaah to mankind and the jinn to produce anything like it, but they were unable to. Then He challenged them to produce only ten soorahs like it, and they were unable to. Then He challenged them to produce something like the shortest soorah in the Quraan, and they could not do it, even though those who were being challenged were the most eloquent and well-spoken of mankind, and the Quraan was revealed in their language. Yet despite that they stated that they were completely incapable of doing that. This challenge has remained down throughout history, but not one person has been able to produce anything like it. If this were the word of a human being, some people would have been able to produce something like it or close to it. There is a great deal of evidence for this challenge in the Quraan, for example, the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Say: If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Quraan, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another ;

[al-Israa 17:88]

Allaah says, challenging them to produce just ten soorahs:

Or they say, He (Prophet Muhammad) forged it (the Quraan). Say: Bring you then ten forged Soorah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allaah (to your help), if you speak the truth!

[Hood 11:13 interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah says, challenging them to produce just one soorah:

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quraan) to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allaah, if you are truthful

[al-Baqarah 2:23 interpretation of the meaning]

2- No matter how much knowledge and understanding mankind attains, they will still inevitably make mistakes, forget things or fall short. If the Quraan were not the word of Allaah, there would be some contradictions and shortcomings in it, as Allaah says:

Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction

[al-Nisa 4:82 interpretation of the meaning]

But it is free from any shortcoming, error or contradiction; indeed, all of it is wisdom, mercy and justice. Whoever thinks that there is any contradiction in it, that is because of his diseased thinking and mistaken understanding; if he refers to the scholars they will explain to him what is correct and clear up the confusion for him, as Allaah says:

Verily, those who disbelieved in the Reminder (i.e. the Quraan) when it came to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an honourable well fortified respected Book (because it is Allaahs Speech, and He has protected it from corruption).

Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it, (it is) sent down by the All Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allaah)”

[Fussilat 41:41-42 interpretation of the meaning]

3- Allaah has guaranteed to preserve this Quraan, and He says:

Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quraan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”

[al-Hijr 15:9 interpretation of the meaning]

Every letter of it was transmitted by thousands from thousands down throughout history, and not one letter of it was altered. If any person tried to alter anything in it, or add something or take something away, then he would be exposed straight away, because Allaah is the One Who has guaranteed to preserve the Quraan, unlike the case with other divinely-revealed Books which Allaah revealed to the people of a particular Prophet only, and not to all of mankind, so He did not guarantee to preserve them, rather He delegated their preservation to the followers of the Prophets. But they did not preserve them, rather they introduced alterations and changes which distorted most of the meanings. The Quraan, on the other hand, was revealed by Allaah to all of mankind until the end of time, because the Message of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the final message, so the Quraan is preserved in mens hearts and in written form, as is proven by the events of history. How many people have tried to change the aayahs of the Quraan and deceive the Muslims, but they were quickly exposed and their falsehood was discovered, even by Muslim children.

Another of the definitive signs that this Quraan was not produced by the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but that it came revealed by Allaah to him is the following:

4- The great miracles which the Quraan contains of legislation, rulings, stories and beliefs, which could not be produced by any created being no matter how great his intelligence and level of understanding. No matter how hard people try to promulgate laws to regulate their lives, they can never succeed so long as they are far away from the teachings of the Quraan; the further away they are, the greater their rate of failure. This is something that has been proven by the kuffaar themselves.

5- Reports of matters of the unseen, both past and future, which no human being could speak of independently, no matter how great his knowledge, especially at that time which is regarded as primitive in terms of technology and modern tools. There are many things which had not been discovered yet, and which have only been discovered after lengthy and difficult exploration with the most modern equipment, but Allaah told us about them in the Quraan, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned them, fifteen centuries ago, such as the stages of embryonic development, the nature of the oceans, etc. These things have made some kaafirs state that this could only have come from God, as in the case of the development of the embryo:

Only 60 years ago, researchers confirmed that man does not come into existence all at once, but rather he passes through stages of development one after another. Only 60 years ago, science discovered this one Quraanic fact.

Shaykh al-Zandaani said, we met an American professor, one of the greatest American scientists, whose name was Professor Marshall Johnson, and we told him that it says in the Qur’aan that man is created in stages. When he heard this, he was sitting down, but he stood up and said, Stages? We said, That was in the seventh century CE! This Book came and said, man was created in stages. He said, That is impossible, impossible We told him, Why do you say that? This Book says (interpretation of the meaning):

He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness

[al-Zumar 39:6]

What is the matter with you, that [you fear not Allaah (His punishment), and] you hope not for reward (from Allaah or you believe not in His Oneness).

While He has created you in (different) stages

[Nooh 71:14]

Then he sat back down on his chair and after a few moments he said, There are only three possibilities. The first is that Muhammad had a huge microscope through which he managed to study these things and he knew things that the people did not know, and he said these things. The second is that this happened by accident, it was a coincidence. The third is that he was a Messenger from God. We said, With regard to the first idea, that he had a microscope and other equipment, you know that a microscope needs lenses, and lenses need glass and technical expertise and other equipment. Some of this information can only be discovered with an electron microscope which needs electricity, and electricity needs knowledge which should have been acquired by an earlier generation. It is not possible for this knowledge to have been acquired all at once in a single generation; the previous generation would have had to strive hard in developing science and transmitting it to the next generation, and so on. But for this to be the work of one man, with no one coming before him or after him, either in his own land or the neighbouring lands for the Romans, Persians and Arabs were ignorant and had no such equipment for one man to have all these instruments and tools which he did not pass on to anyone else this is not possible. He said, Thats right, it would be very difficult. We said, And for it to have been an accident or coincidence, what would you think if we said that the Quraan did not mention this fact only in one verse but in several verses, and that it did not refer to it in general terms but that it gave details of every stage, saying that in the first stage such and such happens, in the second stage such and such happens, in the third stage and so on. Could that be a coincidence? When we explained to him all the details of those stages, he said, It is wrong to say that this is an accident! This is well-founded knowledge. We said, Then how do you explain it? He said, There is no explanation except that this is revelation from above! nbsp;

With regard to the many statements in the Quraan concerning the sea, some of these facts were not discovered until very recently, and many of them are still unknown. For example, these facts were discovered after hundreds of marine stations had been set up, and after images had been taken by satellites. The one who said this was Professor Schroeder, one of the greatest oceanographers in West Germany. He used to say that if science advanced, religion would have to retreat. But when he heard the translation of the verses of the Quraan, he was stunned and said, These could not be the words of a human being. And Professor Dorjaro, a professor of oceanography, told us of the latest developments on science, when he heard the aayah:

Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allaah has not appointed light, for him there is no light

[al-Noor 24:40 interpretation of the meaning]

He said, In the past, man could not dive to a depth of more than twenty meters because he had no special equipment. But now we can dive to the bottom of the ocean, using modern equipment, and we find intense darkness at a depth of two hundred meters. The aayah says a vast deep sea . The discoveries in the depths of the sea give us an understanding of the aayah, (layers of) darkness upon darkness. It is known that there are seven colours in the spectrum, including red, yellow, blue, green, orange, etc. When we dive down into the depths of the ocean, these colours disappear one after another, and the disappearance of each colour results in more darkness. Red disappears first, then orange, then yellow the last colour to disappear is blue, at a depth of two hundred meters. Each colour that disappears adds to the darkness until it reaches total darkness. With regard to the phrase waves topped by waves, it has been proven scientifically that there is a separation between the upper and lower parts of the ocean, and that this separation is filled with waves, as if there are waves on the edge of the dark, lower portion of the sea, which we do not see, and there are waves on the shores of the sea, which we do see. So it is as if there are waves above waves. This is a confirmed scientific fact, hence Professor Dorjaro said concerning these Quraanic verses, that this cannot be human knowledge.

(See al-Adillah al-Maadiyyah ala Wujood-Allaah by Muhammad Mitwalli al-Sharaawi)

And there are very many such examples

6- In the Quraan there are some aayahs which rebuke the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and mention some things to which Allaah drew his attention. Some of them may have been embarrassing for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). But if this Quraan had come from the Messenger of Allaah, there would have been no need for this; if he were to conceal any part of the Quraan, he would have concealed some of these verses which contained rebukes or drew his attention to certain matters which he should not have done, such as the verse in which Allaah says to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):

But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allaah has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allaah will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., their saying that Muhammad married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allaah had a better right that you should fear Him

[al-Ahzaab 33:37 interpretation of the meaning]

After this, can there be any doubt left in the mind of any intelligent person that this Quraan is the word of Allaah, and that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) conveyed that which was revealed to him in full?

Moreover, try it for yourself, read a sound translation of the Quraan and use your mind to ponder these rules and regulations. There is no doubt that any intelligent person who has the power of discernment will see a great difference between these words (of Allaah) and the words of any person on the face of the earth.

And Allah is the only source of strength.
 

saif

Junior Member
Dear brother Kates,
Peace be with you.

As promised earlier, I am taking time to answer your second question, although I don't think, I can provide you a really qualified response on that subject. I have studied bible because I had a lot of discussions with the christians. However, you have asked a question, which is maybe a bone of contention with jews and christians but both christians and muslims agree on it, that Jesus was the Christ or Christos (meaning: anointed, in arabic masih). That is why, it is a very unusual question to ask to a muslim. I will try to do my best to answer your query.

Before I answer your query, I must say, if you want me to justify everything which happened until now using Tanakh, then we can stop our discussion but I will not be able to do it. So I don't really wonder, if Tanakh does not mention a virgine getting pregnant or the second coming of Jesus.

Difference between prophets (anbia') and messengers (rusul):
There were hundreds of thousands of prophets sent to different nations and tribes but not all of them were messengers. Prophets get revelation of God and they guide the people with their divine revelation. Messengers of God do the same thing but they also pose a challenge to the existing order of the society in the sense, that they come with a challenge that those who would not believe on them will get perished. Examples of Prophets but not messengers are Jacob and Joseph. Examples of Messengers of God are Noah, Lot, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Jesus was the last messenger to the children of Israel, so he had to be an extremely unsual or phenomenal kind of personality. That is why his birth and his miracles were all extremly unsual.

Meaning of Moshiach in islamic context
Anointment was a symbol of coronation in the children of israel. My interpretation of this title in the context of Jesus christ is, that he was coronated by God to a very special responsibility towards the children of Israel. If you read the sermon of the mountain, you will notice, that he was acting like the last call to the children of Israel to return to their fundamentals. That the jews were actually expecting a mighty king, who would increase their power is something, which seems to be a misunderstanding of those verses you have presented, as I couldn't see that they meant the same as you thought they did.

That should be enough as a context. Let us come to your specific questions.

Geneology of Jesus:

Well first of all, for someone to even be considered the Moshiach they must fulfill EVERY prophecy, not just one or two, here or there, but every single one. There are so many but let's start with a few.

The Moshiach be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendant of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18). Yeshua's (Isa's) geneology is mentioned twice in the New Testament, in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, which state he is descendant of David through Yosef who was the natural father yet Yeshua/Isa was supposedly born through the virgin birth to Mariam. And nowhere in the Tanakh is a "virgin" birth prophesied anyway.

The Gospels are giving the geneology of Joseph the carpenter as Jesus's geneology. This is something which muslims cannot understand. Jesus was born without father, so they should have provided the family tree of Mariam. As far as I know, Mariam was a levite, probably also a descent of David. So we do not endorse the geneologies of Jesus in the gospels.

Responsibilities of Moshiach??

Secondly, He (The Moshiach) must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12), rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

No where in Isaiah it is mentioned that Moshiach would gather the jewish people in Israel. Instead, the exact words are "ye shall be gathered". The verse 13 mentions blowing the great trumpet, which, in the divine literature a symbol for the last "hour" of the world. So what it is saying is, that by the time the end of the world will be near, the children of israel will be gathered in Israel and I don't see any problem with that explaination. In fact, we are seeing it happening right now. Again in Micah, there is no explicite mentioning of Moshiach. So the expectations of Jews, that Moshiach would be a mighty king and he would rule with world from Jerusalem, irrespective of their deeds, is something like a folklore understanding of the verses of bible. In reality Jesus proved himself to be the last messenger of God to the children of Israel from the children of Israel. His teachings were so revolutionary, that christians still today make the majority of the world. This is, what should have been expected to happen by Moshiach.

Messianic Age:
Thirdly, in the Tanakh there is a thing called "Olam Ha-Ba" which is like "The Messianic Age" read (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3), the world that the Moshiach will create when he arrives. It says in Isaiah 2:4 people will co-exist peacefully, there will be no wars, suffering, etc... will cease to exist. As said before, ALL of the Jews will return to Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5) and EVERYONE in the world will recognize God as manifest in his existence, there will be no atheists or pagans or any of that (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9) furthermore there will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy and there will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).

Here we agree with our christian brethren. It will happen in his second coming. That you don't find it in Tanakh shouldn't be an issue, if later two grand grand messengers of God have confirmed it. Not All the knowledge could have been revealed in Torah and the new things revealed in the later books also have validity. So I see no point in arguing there.

In the end, I have a small advice for you. God willing you will get all your questions answered here but I request you to be patient. Put your questions one by one. You can see how much time it takes to answer a few questions you have posted in the last few mails.

:wasalam:
 

Kats

New Member
Everything BintaShafi said

Wow, I'm going to have to investigate this more. I knew Muslims claimed the Qur'an had scientific facts in it that have only recently been discovered in our modern times with such amazing advances in science but I thought they would be sketchy and very open to interpretation.

Praise be to Allaah Who has made good dear to you; we ask Him to give you guidance and faith.

Thank you so much.

Moreover, try it for yourself, read a sound translation of the Quraan and use your mind to ponder these rules and regulations. There is no doubt that any intelligent person who has the power of discernment will see a great difference between these words (of Allaah) and the words of any person on the face of the earth.

I'm not a very smart person but I'm reading it with my heart and this is what matters.

And Allah is the only source of strength.

I find Culture Club records to be a wonderful source of strength too :p

Before I answer your query, I must say, if you want me to justify everything which happened until now using Tanakh, then we can stop our discussion but I will not be able to do it. So I don't really wonder, if Tanakh does not mention a virgine getting pregnant or the second coming of Jesus.

Why not? The Tanakh is the entire foundation of truth.

Meaning of Moshiach in islamic context
Anointment was a symbol of coronation in the children of israel. My interpretation of this title in the context of Jesus christ is, that he was coronated by God to a very special responsibility towards the children of Israel. If you read the sermon of the mountain, you will notice, that he was acting like the last call to the children of Israel to return to their fundamentals. That the jews were actually expecting a mighty king, who would increase their power is something, which seems to be a misunderstanding of those verses you have presented, as I couldn't see that they meant the same as you thought they did.

That should be enough as a context. Let us come to your specific questions.

Hmm, but they were only "expecting" a "mighty king" because it was prophesied in Torah.

No where in Isaiah it is mentioned that Moshiach would gather the jewish people in Israel. Instead, the exact words are "ye shall be gathered". The verse 13 mentions blowing the great trumpet, which, in the divine literature a symbol for the last "hour" of the world. So what it is saying is, that by the time the end of the world will be near, the children of israel will be gathered in Israel and I don't see any problem with that explaination. In fact, we are seeing it happening right now. Again in Micah, there is no explicite mentioning of Moshiach. So the expectations of Jews, that Moshiach would be a mighty king and he would rule with world from Jerusalem, irrespective of their deeds, is something like a folklore understanding of the verses of bible. In reality Jesus proved himself to be the last messenger of God to the children of Israel from the children of Israel. His teachings were so revolutionary, that christians still today make the majority of the world. This is, what should have been expected to happen by Moshiach.

Your interpretation of the Moshiach is quite different but very interesting.

In the end, I have a small advice for you. God willing you will get all your questions answered here but I request you to be patient. Put your questions one by one. You can see how much time it takes to answer a few questions you have posted in the last few mails.

But you have been so helpful, you and everyone so far. Alivay/Insha'Allah God blesses you for your kindness mate.

These responses are really from the heart. Thanks guys.

I only request one last thing, it would mean the world to me if I could find someone who I could really study the Qur'an with in person, I live in the Melbourne Outer Eastern suburbs, can any Australian here help hook me up with a masjid or any Muslim?
 

shichemlydia

Junior Member
salam

salam alikoum,
hope you are doing well, and hope you will enjoy your stay with us here, and find the website so special inchae allah. hope also that your questions will find answers here too.
what i know about australians is they are said to be peacefull, am i wrong ?
hope to see you later.
wa salam alikoum
 

Kats

New Member
what i know about australians is they are said to be peacefull, am i wrong ?
hope to see you later.
wa salam alikoum

I think it is a little dangerous to say "Australians are peaceful" or "Americans are ignorant" or "British people are snobs", but I understand what you're saying- a culture can breed certain qualities and in a way, yes, Australians are peaceful but it is not ideological like it is in Canada, rather part of Australia's culture has even formed it's own saying - "she'll be right" which means "don't worry about it, it will sort itself out", in otherwords, "peaceful" can also mean "laid back" or "apathetic".

Asalam alaikoum though and thanks for the welcome!
 

shichemlydia

Junior Member
........

salam alikoum again,
oh sorry i had to add this just before,...
i can see you still do not believe that the quran is the words of allah swt.
i am telling you that in the quran you will find some verses in which allah swt is blaming his prophet mohamed pbuoh, if he (mohamed pbuoh) was the writter, i do not think he would blame himself.
mohamed pbuoh was an arab, and was telling the arabs that allah swt has chosen a woman among the womankind who is the mother of jesus (mary) if he invented something, i guess he would say that allah swt has chosen fatima, aicha or someone else among his wives and daughters. so he was forced by a higher authority to say that a woman among the jews is the chosen one.

allah swt in the quran told his messenger about some past and future events, and was comfirming to him, that you have never known this neither you nor your people, نوحيها إليك ما كنت تعلمها أنت ولا قومك من قبل هذا فاصبر أن العاقبة للمتقين
may allah swt guide you to his right path, ameen
wa salam alikoum
 

ShyHijabi

Junior Member
I am confused, were you raised as Christian or Jew? You refer to the Tanach and Torah interchangebly but then also quote from the "New Testament." The Christian new testament is not recognized among Jews as anything more than a fanciful story at best. The reason the "Bible" reads so coherently is because it was put in that order by the Catholic church, part of the Nicean council.

The Chrsitian bible is put in chronological order, not in the order it was written. The book of Job is actually the oldest dated book in the Bible, not Genesis. And Revelations was not the last book written though it appears that way because it was placed in that order. The irony is if you read the Torah in it's original Hebrew it isn't anything like the English version. It's much more poetic than literal. But anyways, welcome here.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
So you couldn't answer my questions about Yeshua as the Moshiach then?

Firstly, I've very weak knowledge about this. But did some research for the benefit of this healthy discussion.
Some of your questions I really do not have answers but if I do will try my best to put fwd. I believe most of it already being answered by my brothers and sisters here. Feel free to ask more questions, we will try to answer them.

On your above question, I know, the Jews are the one refused to recognised Yeshua (peace be upon him) as Messiah (or in Hebrew "Mashiach")
Why? Because they quoting Bible which says that he will:

1) Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel, according to
Isaiah 43:5-6
3) He is supposed to end all hatred, oppression, suffering
and disease according to Isaiah 2:4
4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel
according to Zechariah 14:9.

None of the above fulfilled by Yeshua (peace be upon him) therefore Jews are saying he is not the Messiah.
But the Christians claimed that's why Jesus (peace be upon him) will reappear (second coming) to fulfill it.

Am I right? Whatever it is, I'm not very sure what is actual definition of "al-Masih", "Moshiach" or Messiah.
The Qur'an did addressed Jesus (peace be upon him) as "al-Masih". InshAllah I will try to find a proper tafseer (interpretation) for this.

On the other hand, the Bible claimed Yeshua (peace be upon him) himself clarified that he is the Messiah:

When talking to the Samaritan woman who spoke of the coming of the Messiah, he answers by saying,
"I who speak to you am he" (John 4:26).

When he was asked whether he was the Messiah, in another version Jesus (peace be upon him) said:
"I told you, and you do not believe" (John 10:25).

And then towards the end of his ministry, the high priest of Israel himself directly asked him,
"Are you the Messiah...?"
To which Jesus (peace be upon him) answered directly,
"I am" (Mark 15:61-62).

May I ask you, if you don't mind, are you a Jew?
 

Kats

New Member
I am confused, were you raised as Christian or Jew?

Neither.

You refer to the Tanach and Torah interchangebly but then also quote from the "New Testament." The Christian new testament is not recognized among Jews as anything more than a fanciful story at best. The reason the "Bible" reads so coherently is because it was put in that order by the Catholic church, part of the Nicean council.

Yes, I generally consider the New Testament to be false because at the moment I have trouble seeing Isa as al-Masih. But I quote from it for references to Jesus, I mean, where else would I get them?

The Chrsitian bible is put in chronological order, not in the order it was written. The book of Job is actually the oldest dated book in the Bible, not Genesis. And Revelations was not the last book written though it appears that way because it was placed in that order. The irony is if you read the Torah in it's original Hebrew it isn't anything like the English version. It's much more poetic than literal. But anyways, welcome here.

Thanks a bunch dudette.


Firstly, I've very weak knowledge about this. But did some research for the benefit of this healthy discussion.
Some of your questions I really do not have answers but if I do will try my best to put fwd. I believe most of it already being answered by my brothers and sisters here. Feel free to ask more questions, we will try to answer them.

Haha! Don't worry about it mate, you're probably a lot smarter than me :)

On your above question, I know, the Jews are the one refused to recognised Yeshua (peace be upon him) as Messiah (or in Hebrew "Mashiach")
Why? Because they quoting Bible which says that he will:

1) Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel, according to
Isaiah 43:5-6
3) He is supposed to end all hatred, oppression, suffering
and disease according to Isaiah 2:4
4) Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel
according to Zechariah 14:9.

None of the above fulfilled by Yeshua (peace be upon him) therefore Jews are saying he is not the Messiah.
But the Christians claimed that's why Jesus (peace be upon him) will reappear (second coming) to fulfill it.

Yes, and this is the main issue in my trouble with accepting Islam, at least, at the moment it is.

Am I right? Whatever it is, I'm not very sure what is actual definition of "al-Masih", "Moshiach" or Messiah.

Messiah/Moshiach/al-Masih mean "anointed one", the prophesied King of Israel descendant from David which will bring a new age. Jesus/Yeshua/Isa didn't do this.

The Qur'an did addressed Jesus (peace be upon him) as "al-Masih". InshAllah I will try to find a proper tafseer (interpretation) for this.

On the other hand, the Bible claimed Yeshua (peace be upon him) himself clarified that he is the Messiah:

When talking to the Samaritan woman who spoke of the coming of the Messiah, he answers by saying,
"I who speak to you am he" (John 4:26).

When he was asked whether he was the Messiah, in another version Jesus (peace be upon him) said:
"I told you, and you do not believe" (John 10:25).

And then towards the end of his ministry, the high priest of Israel himself directly asked him,
"Are you the Messiah...?"
To which Jesus (peace be upon him) answered directly,
"I am" (Mark 15:61-62).

Yes, but there are hundreds of people throughout history who have claimed to be the Moshiach.

May I ask you, if you don't mind, are you a Jew?

No no, it's fine. I'd consider myself a Noachide. I believe in the one true God of the Torah but I'm not Jewish.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Yes, and this is the main issue in my trouble with accepting Islam, at least, at the moment it is..

It is fine if you find it is difficult to accept Christinianity because many reasons you already higlighted. But why not Islam? Torah is just like Bible, corrupted and full of adulteration. Though it speak about "One True God" but yet it is not reliable due to changes done to it by the Jews.

Messiah/Moshiach/al-Masih mean "anointed one", the prophesied King of Israel descendant from David which will bring a new age. Jesus/Yeshua/Isa didn't do this..

I'm aware of the meaning, but what actually Messiah all about in plain language? Does it mean prophecy? In Qur'an, it does mentioned about "al-Masih" but I need to find proper interpretation what Qur'an mean by "al-Masih". But before that, I'm sure one of my learned brother will be giving the answer soon.
 

Kats

New Member
I'm aware of the meaning, but what actually Messiah all about in plain language? Does it mean prophecy? In Qur'an, it does mentioned about "al-Masih" but I need to find proper interpretation what Qur'an mean by "al-Masih". But before that, I'm sure one of my learned brother will be giving the answer soon.

Yes, the revealed prophesy in Torah says that there is a man descendant of Dawud who will usher in a new age of peace where there is no sin and everybody will recognize Allah's existence. Christians say this was Isa but because he did not fulfill all prophecy and he did not bring a new age of peace, that he will do these things on a "second coming" which is kind of a loop hole and not mentioned in the Torah at all.
 

Kats

New Member
It is fine if you find it is difficult to accept Christinianity because many reasons you already higlighted. But why not Islam? Torah is just like Bible, corrupted and full of adulteration. Though it speak about "One True God" but yet it is not reliable due to changes done to it by the Jews.

Because Torah is kind of like the foundation of the Qur'an and God's word, even if it might be full of changes and not true to the original- kind of like a ruined set of pillars. I'm already amazed by the Qur'an so if I can be shown Isa as al-Masih, it will bring me closer to accepting it.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Certainly I do not believe in "second coming" of Jesus (peace be upon him) as per what christians believe because they are saying the whole world will see him coming down, how this is possible when the earth is not flat?

But as a Muslim I believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) will come back because The Prophet (may Allah blessings and peace be upon him) confirmed this in below Hadith (the Prophet's sayings and tradition):

Hadith Sahih Bukhari, narrated by Abu Huraira (The Prophet's companion - may Allah be pleased with him).

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.


Do you believe in Jesus? If yes, as what? Prophet?
 

Kats

New Member
Do you believe in Jesus? If yes, as what? Prophet?

I'm not sure, some of the things he taught were contradictions to Halakha, for a well known example take when Isa said:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42

To not defend yourself when you are attacked is considered a sin in Torah. Why would he teach something like this?
 

~Ali_

Fixing da foundation
I'm not sure, some of the things he taught were contradictions to Halakha, for a well known example take when Isa said:



To not defend yourself when you are attacked is considered a sin in Torah. Why would he teach something like this?

Hello there :) I was listening to a lecture by "Ali Al-Timimi" yesterday called "Sweetness of faith"

in it somewhere was an answer to your above question :)
Sweetness of faith
the lecture makes some other points aswell and I think it would be very beneficial if you listened to it :) and I hope it answers your question and also gives you a deeper understanding of islam
 
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