PLEASE READ: `Aqeedah Study- Al-Haa'iyyah & Explanation


Assalaamu `alaykum

We will be taking the next two lines of poetry as they are related.

وقل غيرُ مخلوقٍ كلام مليكنا بذلك دان الـأتقياء وأفصحوا

3) And say: Not a created thing is the Speech of our great King,
Such was the religious position of the pious ones (before us) which they clearly expressed.

ولا تكُ في القرآن بالوقف قائلاً كما قال أتْباعٌ لِجَهْمٍ وأسححُوا
4) And do not be a person who takes no position on the Quran,
As did the followers of Jahm, and they had been too lax (to take the right position).

Question 3: For Brother Kashif

Wassalaamu `alaykum​

Sorry for the late reply,I was honestly,unable to understand this and had to contact a few friends in order to understand this,all I could come up with,is the following ::

The position of Ahlu U Sunnah wa Al Jam'ah is that Allaah Speaks when and how He wills , and that is opposing the position of Jahm and his followers who say the Quran is created .. we say the Quran is uncreated the true speech of Allaah.The Ja'ahm and his followers say it is created thats where they went astray in this regard.

In surat al kahf it says in translation:

Say, "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." Al kahf [18:109]

Allah says: `Say, O Muhammad, if the water of the sea were ink for a pen to write down the words, wisdom and signs of Allah, the sea would run dry before it all could be written down.
﴿وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ﴾
(even if We brought like it) means, another sea, then another, and so on, additional seas to be used for writing. The Words of Allah would still never run out. As Allah says:
﴿وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِى الاٌّرْضِ مِن شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلاَمٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍ مَّا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَـتُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ ﴾
(And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink), with seven seas behind it to increase it, yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.) ﴿31:27﴾ Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, "The parable of the knowledge of all of mankind, in comparison to the knowledge of Allah, is that of a drop of water in comparison to all of the oceans.'' Allah revealed that:
﴿قُل لَّوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَاداً لِّكَلِمَـتِ رَبِّى لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَـتُ رَبِّى﴾
(Say: "If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, surely, the sea would be exhausted before the Words of my Lord would be finished,) Allah says that even if those oceans were ink for the Words of Allah, and all the trees were pens, the pens would be broken and the water of the sea would run dry, and the Words of Allah would remain, for nothing can outlast them. For no one can comprehend the greatness of Allah or praise Him as He deserves to be praised, except the One Who praises Himself. Our Lord is as He says He is and He is beyond what we can say. The blessings of this world, the beginning and end of it, in comparison to the blessings of the Hereafter, are like a mustard seed compared to the entire world.
﴿قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَاْ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلَـهُكُمْ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَآءَ رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلاً صَـلِحاً وَلاَ يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدَا ﴾
(110. Say: "I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is One God. So whoever hopes for the meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord.'')

Also the following two verses from surat an nisa supports that Qur'an the speech of Allah is not a created thing:

Allah - there is no deity except Him. He will surely assemble you for [account on] the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. And who is more truthful than Allah in statement.[4:87]

But the ones who believe and do righteous deeds - We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. [It is] the promise of Allah , [which is] truth, and who is more truthful than Allah in statement. an nisa[4:122]

These two verses imply that it is Allah's speech and not a created thing.
Sorry was difficult.Please correct me.


Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

Assalaamu `alaykum
Question 6: For sister Seeking Allaah's Mercy

Based on question 4 again: We have another group that belongs to `Ilm al-Kalaam and this is the Ashaa`irah.

What is their position with regards to the auhor's position and how would you refute their position/s?

The Author's postion:

The author says that Quraan is the speech of Allaah and not a created thing.

As Allaah says in the Quraan:

وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّىٰ يَسْمَعَ كَلَامَ اللَّـهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ ۚ

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. [Surah Tawbah:6]

The speech of Allaah mentioned here is the Quraan. Allaah has mentioned His book as "Kalam Allaah".

Allah says in the Quraan mentioning it (the Quran as His word):

يُرِيدُونَ أَن يُبَدِّلُوا كَلَامَ اللَّـهِ ۚ

They wish to change the words of Allah. [Surah fathh: 15].

Allah says they want to make tabdee with the words of Allaah. i.e change the kalam of Allaah which is the Quraan.

وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقًا وَعَدْلًا ۚ لَّا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ ۚ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing. [Surah Al Ana'm:115]

وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِن شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلَامٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍمَّا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَاتُ اللَّـهِ

And if whatever trees upon the earth were pens and the sea [was ink], replenished thereafter by seven [more] seas, the words of Allah would not be exhausted.[Surah Luqmaan :27]

Also Allaah says:

قُل لَّوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِّكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا

Say, "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." [Surah Kahf :109]

It is argued that the words of Allaah have been compiled in the Quraan i.e we do not need seas to write the Quraan down. This is incorrect understanding of the "words of Allaah". The "words of Allaah" are not limited to the Quraan alone. Allaah speaks to whomever He likes, whenever He likes in a manner that suits His majesty. He spoke to Mosa directly, He spoke of the Muhammad:saw: in Israa and Mai'raj, He orders the angels, the skies, the heavens and the universe with His words. It is His Sifaat Fa'iliyyah (His attributes).
Allaah is Al Mutakalim. It is his sifaa that is permanently established i.e One of His attributes. The Prophet (e) also said in reference to the Qur`aan,

"The superiority of the kalaam of Allaah over all other kalaam is (like) the superiority of Allaah over His Creation."

These Ayah and Hadith affirm that the Quraan is the speech of Allaah (the Kalam of Allaah as mentioned in the Quraan.) It is not befitting for anyone adhering to the book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the messenger :saw: to say that Quraan is created i.e it's recitation! Or that Allaah doesn't even have the Kalam i.e Allaah doesn't speak.

Saying that my recitation is created or my "Lufdh" for the Quraan is "mukhlooq" created. This is a dangerous innovation. It is used by those who want the people to say that the Quraan is created but they do not say it outright. Groups like Mu'tazila, Jahmiyyah, Lafdhiyyah and Aashariay fall into the category of those people who believe that the Quraan is not the Kalam (speech) of Allaah.

The Aashariyya:

The Ash'arees are a group that take their 'aqeedah, and their name, from the teachings of Aboo al-Hasan Alee ibn Isma'eel al-Ash'aree (d. 324 A.H.).

With regards to the kalaam of Allaah, the Ash'arees brought forth an 'aqeedah that was unknown to the salaf. They claimed that Allaah does posses the Attribute of Speech, and that the Qur`aan was the kalaam of Allaah, and in this they agreed with the Ahl as-Sunnah and differed with the "Mu'atils" (The people who follow the Mu'tazila) However, they explained this attribute in a unique way.

1)They claimed the "kalam of Allaah" was a kalam that could not be heard. i.e there is no sound and no letters and words.

2)The Quraan and other revealed books are different expression (Ar. 'hikaayah', or ''ibaarah') of the kalaam of Allaah which is one.

3)They also claim that the "kalam" of Allaah is continous and is not related to His will i.e Allaah is continually speaking, and will always be speaking - He does not speak when He wishes.

Since they believe that the kalam of Allaah azz wa jal is "internal kalam"- as explained by Yassir Qadhi. And that it cannot be heard, they say that the although Allaah azz wa jal can speak the Quraan is not His speech. It is created. They believe that the Quraan's text was created and preserved in the Lauh al Mahfooz (The preserved Tablet) and Jibra'il took it from the tablet and then read it to the Prophet of Allaah :saw: This means that Jibreel was the first to verbalize it, thus making the Qur`aan the speech of Jibreel; yet others stated that the Qur`aan was inspired in meaning and first spoken by the Prophet :saw:, thus making the Qur`aan the speech of the Prophet Muhammad:saw:.

Sheikh saleh fawzan mentions that this is baatil. Jibraeel didnot take it from the Luh al mahfooz, rather he took the Quraan from Allaah. The only reason they refuse to believe this is because they do not believe that Allaah could talk to Jibrail Ahel salam. However we believe that the Quraan is written on lauh al Mahfooz. As Allaah says:

بَلْ هُوَ قُرْآنٌ مَّجِيدٌ ﴿٢١﴾ فِي لَوْحٍ مَّحْفُوظٍ ﴿٢٢﴾

But this is an honored Qur'an. [Inscribed] in a Preserved Slate
[Surah Al Burooj :21-22].

The deviation is, when they say that Allaah just created the Quraan on the preserved tablet, and that it was never uttered by Allaah azz wa jal Himself. Ahlus Sunnah believes that Allaah sobhanuhu wa ta'aala didnot created the Quraan rather it is his speech. i.e He spoke every word of it. And that Jibrail took it from Allaah Azz wa jal. The revelation was send down in three stages:

Yasir Qadhi explains in "An introduction to the Sciences of The Qur'an" the "stages of Revelation." as:

Stage 1:Allah creates the pen and asks the pen to write-including the qur'an.

Stage 2:Allah reveals the qur'an to the lowest heaven (bait ul 'izza) on the night of the qadr.

Stage 3: Jibreel (AS)reveals the qur'an gradually to Prophet SWS.

He states that," It should be remembered that the Qur'an is the Speech of Allah. Therefore, it is incorrect to use the narrations of Ibn 'Abbaas which allude to the Lauh Al Mahfoodh; in fact, the narration is explicit in that Allah would '...inspire' the portion of the Qur'an that He wished to reveal."

He also says, "Some scholars, however, have inferred from these narrations that Jibreel took the Qur'an from the Lauh Al Mahfoodh. However, other scholars stated that Jibreel heard the Qur'an from Allah AND took the Qur'an from the Lauh al Mahfoodh. Whether Jibreel also took the Qur'an from the Lauh Al Mahfoodh or not, is as Az-Zarqaanee stated,

"...not of great importance, as long as we are sure the source of revelation is Allah alone.""

Another doubt that the Aashariaya have is Quraan is not the Kalam or "Qol" of Allaah and is created because Allaah says:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ

[That] indeed, the Qur'an is a word [conveyed by] a noble messenger [Surah takweer :19].

Here the term "rasool un Kareem" or "honorable messenger" refers to Jibraeel Aleh salam.

And also:

إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ ﴿٤٠﴾ وَمَا هُوَ بِقَوْلِ شَاعِرٍ

[That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. And it is not the word of a poet[Surah Al Haaqaa: 40-41].

Here the term "rasool un Kareem" or "honorable messenger" refers to Muhammad:saw:. They say Allaah described the Quraan as the Qol of Jibrail and Muhammad:saw:. Speech of a creation is itself created so when Allaah says the Quraan is the word of Jibrail of The prophet:saw:

This again is Baatil because firstly because this here is "Izzafatut Tableegh" (The reporter or quoter). For example: A person says: الْحَمْدُ لِلَّـهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِي ([All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds - [Surah Fatiha :1]). This is "said" by him and "heard" by us. But whose speech was it?

It is the Speech of Allaah but the person can say "he 'said' it", because the person is the Mubaligh (preacher, conveyer) here. He's the one conveying the ayah. However he's not the one who spoke with it originally. He only spoke with the words or phrase of Allaah. He's conveying original speaker's Speech i.e Allaah speech or His kalam.

Similary Jibrail or Prophet Mohmmad:saw: spoke with it, they did not originate this Speech. They were only quoting or conveying the Quraan so it became their speech in the sense of a quoter or a conveyer. The one who qutoes and conveys is described as saying those words but the one who originates them, as is the case with these two ayah. Muslims have no doubt about the Quraan being the speech of Allaah Ibtada'un i.e It is originated from Him. We do not negate the speech of Allah.

Logical explanation:

Logically, negating the speech of Allaah does not make any sense because of the deficiency that this idea entails. If Allaah can not speak then that is a deficiency. Our Lord cannot be deficient of speech for if He cannot speak, How can he command and prohibit and convey? He's perfect and complete along with His names and attributes. One who is deficient is not worthy of worship. The 'Aqeedah that the Quraan isn't the word of Allaah because Allaah does not speak is an ugly and hideous belief. This is because they are describing Allaah with a deficiency with which Allaah has described the fake gods, who are not worthy of worship, in The Quraan. Allaah says:

وَاتَّخَذَ قَوْمُ مُوسَىٰ مِن بَعْدِهِ مِنْ حُلِيِّهِمْ عِجْلًا جَسَدًا لَّهُ خُوَارٌ ۚ أَلَمْ يَرَوْا أَنَّهُ لَا يُكَلِّمُهُمْ وَلَا يَهْدِيهِمْ سَبِيلًا ۘ

And the people of Moses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf - an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? [Surah Al 'Araaf- 148]

أَفَلَا يَرَوْنَ أَلَّا يَرْجِعُ إِلَيْهِمْ قَوْلًا

Did they not see that it could not return to them any speech [Surah Ta-ha:89]

Allaah points out the deficiency of the calf that they worshiped. The deficiency was that they calf could neither speak, nor guide anyone. When Allaah azz wa jal points out these deficiency in the gods of the Mushrikeen, then directly and clearly we can affirm that Allaah himself speaks and guides. He refuted them because the gods they worshiped besides Him were not perfect and one of the clearest indications that they was not worthy of worship was that they could not speak! Even though the calf made noises, it was not capable of intelligent speech.

Also people of Ibraheem Aleh salam were rebuked for worshiping the mute and deaf dieties:

قَالَ بَلْ فَعَلَهُ كَبِيرُهُمْ هَـٰذَا فَاسْأَلُوهُمْ إِن كَانُوا يَنطِقُونَ ﴿٦٣﴾ فَرَجَعُوا إِلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ فَقَالُوا إِنَّكُمْ أَنتُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ ﴿٦٤﴾ ثُمَّ نُكِسُوا عَلَىٰ رُءُوسِهِمْ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتَ مَا هَـٰؤُلَاءِ يَنطِقُونَ ﴿٦٥﴾ قَالَ أَفَتَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ مَا لَا يَنفَعُكُمْ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَضُرُّكُمْ

"'Rather, this one, the largest of them, did it! (Why don't you) ask them, if they can speak!' So they turned to themselves, and said, 'Verily, you are the wrong-doers (since you left the idols unguarded).' Then they turned to themselves (again) and (responded), 'You know very well (O Ibraheem) that these (idols) do not speak' (Abraham) replied, 'Do you then worship besides Allaah objects that can neither profit you nor harm you? Fie to you, and upon that which you worship besides Allaah! Have you no sense?!'" [Surah Al Anbiya : 63-67]

These two stories show that muteness and incoherent speech are attributes that do not befit the Creator, and thus the people of Ibraheem and Moosaa were rebuked for taking gods that were mute. Yet, the Ash'arees, thinking that they were removing all negative attributes from Allaah, in reality equated the Creator with the attributes of these idols!
Haaroon ibn Ma'roof (d. 231 A.H.), one of the scholars of the salaf, said,
"Whoever presumes that Allaah does not speak, then in reality he is worshipping idols."

The principle of the Scholars of Arabic language:

The 'Aasharis argue that when Allaah mentions His speech in the Quraan then is it majaaz ( figurative ) i.e He doesn't really mean speech in the real sense.

The scholars of Arabic language have set a principle according to which, When a verb is followed by a masdar (infinitive) it negates any possiblity of the majaz i.e figurative speech.

For Example:

"I played tennis and Suhaanah hit me hard.(Darabani Suhaanah)" This statement can mean two things:

1) Suhaanah really hit me physically (Real meaning)

2) Suhaanah beat me in the tennis i.e did well against me(Figurative meaning)

But if I say: "Darabani Suhaanah Darbun" ( Suhaanah hit me with a direct hit).

Similarly when Allaah says:

وَكَلَّمَ اللَّـهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا

And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.
[Surah Nisaa: 164]

It could have meant that the speech mentioned here is not real but figurative. However the verb كَلَّمَ (kallama) is followed by the masdar تَكْلِيمًا (takleema). This negates any possiblity of Allaah's speech mentioned in the Quraan being just a figurative speech according to the principle.

The scholars of Arabic language themselves set this principle but unfortunately most go against it. They negate the speech of Allaah according to the understanding of the salaf.

From all the proof above it is affirmed that Allaah speaks and Quraan is the speech of Allaah. This also shows the ugliness and hideousness of the madhab of the people who negate the speech of Allaah. In Summary, anything that deserves to be described with Ar Rubobiyya and 'Ulohiyya must have speech. Nothing of Allaah, the Lord of the worlds, the only One who deserves to be worshiped is created. Saying that any action or speech (or any attribute) of Allaah is created in essence is like saying Allaah is created. Astagfirullah! May Allaah guide and forgives His servants sins. Ameen!


Junior Member
Question 8: For Sister Allaahknowsbest

One of points that the Ashaa`irah mention is that the Qur'aan was in the Lauh al-Mahfooth and that Jibreel `alayhis-salaam took the Qur'aan from it and then recited it to the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam.

What is al-Lauh al-Mahfooth and is there any mention of it in the Qur'aan? How correct is the above point by the Ashaa`irah i.e is that how the Qur'aan was revealed to the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam.?

Wassalaamu `alaykum

Assalamu 'alaykum.

Al-Lauh al-Mahfoodh is the Preserved Tablet. Allah caused the Qur'an to descend from the Preserved Tablet (on which it was written) to the lowest heaven. From the lowest heaven, sections/parts of the Qur'an were taken by Jibreel (AS) to the Prophet :saw: over the course of twenty three years.

Allah says in the Qur'an: "But this is an honored Qur'an. Inscribed in a Preserved Slate." (al-Burooj 85:21-22)

Sorry my answer is too short; I'm sick.


Praise be to Allah!
Assalamu 'alaykum.

Allah caused the Qur'an to descend from the Preserved Tablet (on which it was written) to the lowest heaven. From the lowest heaven, sections/parts of the Qur'an were taken by Jibreel (AS) to the Prophet :saw: over the course of twenty three years.

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

May Allaah cure you and make this as a means of purification for your sins.

That is what the Ashaa`irah say about how the Qur'aan was revealed and it is not correct. Read Sister Seeking Allaah's Mercy's post inshaa'Allaah

Wassalaamu `alaykum


ربنا اغفر لنا ذنوبنا
Staff member
Assalaamu `alaikum warahmatullaah!

*Q # 2*

Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Rahimahullaah) was one to travel extensively in search of knowledge. After having traveled around `Iraaq, Syria and `Arabia, he returned to his hometown - where his faith was tested severely. He also studied under Imaam shaafi`ee.

It was during the ruling of al-Ma`moon and al-Mu`tasim that he was arrested and brought to court in chains (subhaanallah!). At that time, the `Abbassid caliphs were taken to the Mu`tazilah school of thought. They (Mu`tazilahs) held the belief that Al-Qur'aan was created and Allaah SWT does not speak. And this belief was to be accepted by all. However, Imaam Ahmad refused to do such things and held firm to the correct knowledge. Because of that, he was punished in various forms of torture (it was said that one time al-Mansoor gave order for him to get flogged) and imprisoned for twenty-eight months. But the Imaam (Rahimahullaah) accepted all of this abuse in patience.

- I sort of had to do a bit of research because at first I thought it was Bukhaari. He was once accused by Muhammad ibn yahyaa adh-dhulee that he agreed with and accepted the Mu`tazilahs teachings. And when he was questioned, he said "The Qur'aan is the kalaam of Allaah, your speech is from your actions and all your actions are created." But he wasn't imprisoned nor was he tortured at any point. Also, he's actually among the scholars who follow the teachings of Imaam Ahmad himself...

*Apologies for the lateness and shortness of this.


Junior Member
Assalamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah wa rahmatullah.

The Mu'tazilah group first formed at the time of Hasan al-Basri, Rahimahullaah. Among sheikh Al-Basri's circle of study at a masjid in Iraaq was Waasil Ibn Atta.
A man came to the sheik with a question regarding Muslims who commit major sins. He said he came across people and they divided themselves into two. One group made Takfeerm on such people(these are the Khawaarij) and the other had complete hope in them (this group being the Murji'). However before the sheikh could answer, Waasil said "Such a person is neither a Muslim nor a kaafir."
He made a fourth category for people and thus started this movement where its ideology is far from the correct one. As we are told, people are of three: A Munaafiq, Kaafir and Muslim(some may add a Mu'min as well but that really is part of being a Muslim), so there's no in-between as Waasil declared.

Among their deviated beliefs is that,

• They preferred 'Aql(Reason/logic) over Naql(revelation) in matters concerning the deen.

• They rejected Al-qadaa wa-al-Qadr

• They say action is created by man and not Allaah

• They completely reject Aahaad narrations

• They believe that Qur'an is created and not eternal

• And they negate the attributes of Allaah 'azza wa jall.

Concerning the last point, Allaah azza wa jall says in the Qur'an that on the day of Account our "skins", "hands", and "legs" will testify against us. Now one would say these body parts will speak in order to testify. And in order to "speak" they must have a "mouth".. However, from an ordinary human being's point of view it would be said that the said body parts haven't a speaking device(a mouth) so how will they be able to talk? And that right there should be enough to inform one of Allaah 'azza wa jall's powers. The knowledge of "how" they'll speak is solely with Him and He is able to do all things! And so all we shall know is that these body parts "will" speak and stop there. Just as we are aware that Allaah 'azza wa jall has a speech, but stop there.
This was the problem with the Mu'tazila- they would not stop where the texts stopped rather they let their intellects go on and on and eventually said the if Allaah has speech
then He must have a "mouth" and so attributing to Him a "body"- the likes of human beings. They only understood speech in light of "speech of the creation." Then they said no that's not befitting and negated speech all together. Yes, Allaah 'azza wa jall affirmed for Himself speech but did not make it one similar to people(His creation).

May Allah guide us!

I, too, really apolagize for my lateness, brother.

Wassalaamu 'alaa manittaba' al-Hudaa!!


Praise be to Allah!
Assalaamu 'alaykum

Nice to see all of you giving the answers that I am expecting-especially your-sister.

Also I wanted to ask, are you all learning anything from what we are doing- like anything beneficial at all? 'Cos that's the main purpose of this thread.

We are waiting for our beloved members ibnAdam, Aapa and friend263


Travelling towards my grave.
assalam 'alaikumj warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

InshaAllah I will write my answer tonight. :) Just today I have arrived back here.

wassalam 'alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh


Travelling towards my grave.
Assalaamu `alaykum

Question 4: For brother IbnAdam (I have reduced your question as you have difficulties in doing research)

The rationalists deviated in terms of the position of the author (which is the belief of Ahl al-Sunnah) and thus deviated from the position of Ahl al-Sunnah with regards to this specific issue and many others.

One of the groups includes the Jahmiyyah. Who is the head of this group and how did it come about? Give us a list of other deviated beliefs from this group. Also let us know if this group is still within the fold of Islaam.

Wa'alaikumussalam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

They were the followers of Jahm ibn Safwan al Samarqandi (d.128AH) and considered pure fatalists (Jabriyya).

Jahm express his heretical beliefs in Tirmidh (Uzbekistan) and was executed by the Umayyad governor of Balk and Juzajan. Salm ibn Ahwaz al-Mazini, in Marw (Turkmenistan). Like the Mu'tazila, he rejected the eternal divine attributes, but he also held other heretical beliefs. Some of the doctrines professed by the Jahmiyyah are:

-That the Qur'an is a product of creation [makhluq].

-That Allah (Exalted is He) did not speak to Moses.

-That Allah (Exalted is He) did not speak and did not see.

-He possesses neither Throne ['arsh] nor Pedestal [kursi] and He is not "Established upon the Throne".

-They refuse to accept the reality of the [weighing of deeds in] the scales [mawazin], and of the torment of the tomb.

-They refuse to accept that the Garden of Paradise and the Fire of Hell are products of creation, and claim that if they have been created they must eventually cease to exist.

-They maintain that Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He) will neither speak to His creatures nor look at them on the Day of Resurrection, and that the inhabitants of the Garden of Paradise will neither look at Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He) nor see Him therein.

-They maintain that faith [iman] is an affair of the heart, which does not require confirmation by the tongue.

-They refuse to acknowledge any of the attributes [sifat] of the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He).

Exalted is Allah, far beyond everything of this kind!

Due to the many serious issues including the above, this group is not in any means in the fold of Islam, according to all the scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah. Moreover, this is a very dangerous group in the Islamic Ummah, who still exists to some extend and are trying to deviate Muslims to their belief. May Allah give them Hidayah, and prevent all of us.

PS: I am unable to recall the names and other details on the incident how this Jahm ibn Safwan started this, because my text book about sects are back in my island at this time. Therefore I sincerely apologise as I do not want to take a risk of writing some mistakes by trying to write the whole thing from my poor memory.

Wassalam 'Alaiakum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh :)


Praise be to Allah!
Assalaamu `alaykum

I really apologize for the delay in replying. It took me a while to sit down and type up the notes.

I would like to ask a favour to one of the members:

I am really tied up in terms of time- so I would really appreciate if someone can post the commentary up neatly (attached the notes), as I have lot of other work to finish off.

Inshaa'Allaah all of you can race for the 'ajr :- )

P.S Please do spell-check before posting it. And it would be nice if you can make the ayaat and the hadeeth with difference colors.

BaarakAllaahu feekum
Wassalaamu `alaykum


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Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Assalaamu `alaykum

I really apologize for the delay in replying. It took me a while to sit down and type up the notes.

I would like to ask a favour to one of the members:

I am really tied up in terms of time- so I would really appreciate if someone can post the commentary up neatly (attached the notes), as I have lot of other work to finish off.

Inshaa'Allaah all of you can race for the 'ajr :- )

P.S Please do spell-check before posting it. And it would be nice if you can make the ayaat and the hadeeth with difference colors.

BaarakAllaahu feekum
Wassalaamu `alaykum
Asalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

If no one beats me to it. I'll do it Inshaa'Allah.

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Third line:

بِـذَلكَ دَانَ الأتْقِياءُ وأَفْصحُــوا وَقُـلْ غَيْـرُ مَخْلِوقٍ كَلامُ مَليكِنا
And say: The Speech of our great King is not created,
Such was the religious position of the pious ones (before us) who spoke well.

Maleek is one of the names of Allaah Subhaanah so is Maalik, and Malik is also another qiraa'ah.

It is important to know that the `Aqeedah of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l Jamaa`ah, the Sahaabah, the Tabi`een and those who followed them- is that the Qur'aan is the words of Allaah and Allaah spoke it- which was heard by Jibreel, who then descended to the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam and then the Qur'aan was heard by the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam, who then conveyed it to the Ummah. The evidence for that is the ayah, where Allaah said:

بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ . عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ. نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ . وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ
رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ​
And truly, this (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the `Aalameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists), which the trustworthy Rooh (Jibreel)) has brought down- upon your heart (O Muhammad SAW) that you may be (one) of the warners- in clear Arabic language. [Soorah al-Shu`araa': 192-195]

It should be known that it is from the attributes of Allaah- that He speaks. It is from Allaah's Sifaat al-Fi`liyyah (Attributes of Action) that He Speaks and what this means is that Allaah Speaks just like His other Attributes like: He creates, He gives provisions, He gives life, He gives death etc. So it should be clear that Allaah's Speech is from His attributes and to say that the words of Allaah are created is to say that His Attributes are Created. He, Subhaanahu wa Ta`aalaa, Speaks as it befits His Majesty- just like His other Attributes (Ex: He Rose over the throne as it befits His Majesty etc). Thus, we say that Allaah speaks as He wills, when He wills, and speaks what He wills.

He speaks as He wills, as Allaah said:

فَعَّالٌ لِّمَا يُرِيدُ
He does what He wills. [Soorah al-Burooj: 16]

He speaks when He wills as we know: That He spoke the Qur'aan at the time of its revelation, He spoke to Moosa at a specific time, He spoke to the Messenger of Allaah sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam in the night of Israa', and before all this- He spoke to Aadam `alahis-salaam. We know that He will speak on the Day of Judgement, and He will speak to the people of Jannah (as we will see) etc.

He speaks what He wills with His Speech, a sound that is audible and that the ability of speech itself is Eternal even if a particular sound/voice of Allaah is not Eternal [for example: When Allaah said: Yaa Yahya or Yaa zakariyyaa (in Soorah Maryam)- then He has not been saying this eternally rather He said this at a specific period in time].

Allaah has eternally been a Mutakallim (one who speaks) and as mentioned He speaks- if He wants, whenever He wants, however He wants- in an unknown manner. He speaks with words and a voice that does not resemble the voices of His Creation. This is because Allaah said:

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ
There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. [Soorah al-Shooraa: 11]

[Note: Allaah affirms His Attributes, after negating any similarity between Him- Subhaanah- and the Creation. This is unlike what the rationalists do- where they use this ayah to negate any similarity between the creation and the Creator and at the same time negating the Attributes of Allaah, because they are 'humanly' attributes. But they fail to understand that there is no similarity between His attributes and the attributes of the creation, as Allaah Himself affirms His Attribute of Hearing and Seeing after negating any similitude to the creation]

Thus, the manner in which He Speaks is unknown to us, but the fact that He Speaks is known to us. As Imaam al-Tahaawi mentioned in his book " Al-`Aqeedah al-Tahaawiyyah ":

وإِنَّ القرآنَ كَلامُ الله، منْهُ بَدَا بلاَ كَيْفِيَّة قَوْلاً
The Qur’an is the speech of Allah. It originated from Him as articulated speech in an unknown manner.

[Note: The Imaam uses the word Qawlan- which is a Masdar (Verbal Noun) and this stresses the fact that it was really an action of uttering words. The same can be noticed when Allaah emphasized about His Speech when He used the verbal noun Takleem in [Soorah al-Nisaa': 164, next verse that has been quoted] and this emphasis, as scholars explained, completely negates the possibility of a metaphor]

The way of the Sahaabah was that the Qur'aan is the speech of Allaah and is not 'Created'. None of them had doubts about this. And there are clear proofs from the Qur'aan and Sunnah, like where Allaah spoke to Moosa `alayhis-salaam:

وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا
And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech. [Soorah an-Nisaa'- 164]

Allaah also mentioned in Soorah Yaaseen, after mentioning the rewards for the people of Jannah, one of the things He mentioned is that they will be greeted by Allaah:

سَلَامٌ قَوْلًا مِّن رَّبٍّ رَّحِيمٍ
Salamun (Peace), a Word from the Lord (Allah), Most Merciful. [Soorah Yaa Seen: 58]

The Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam explained in the hadeeth of Jaabir as collected by Ibn Maajah and others that the people will be enjoying their life in happiness and they will be rewarded with the greatest reward when Allaah will appear to them from above. And He will say 'Peace be upon you, people of Paradise'.

The ayah and the hadeeth both affirm Allaah's attribute of speech.

In reality, with those whom Allaah does not speak on the day of judgement- that will be humiliation for them, as Allaah mentioned in Soorah aal-`Imraan: 77

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَشْتَرُونَ بِعَهْدِ اللَّهِ وَأَيْمَانِهِمْ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا أُولَٰئِكَ لَا خَلَاقَ لَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ وَلَا يُكَلِّمُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَلَا يَنظُرُ إِلَيْهِمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَلَا يُزَكِّيهِمْ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
Verily, those who purchase a small gain at the cost of Allah's Covenant and their oaths, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter (Paradise). Neither will Allah speak to them, nor look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful torment.

We also have the subchapter in Saheeh al-Bukhaari where Imaam al-Bukhaari named it: "The speech of the Lord, Blessed and Exalted, with the People of Paradise". We have a number of ahaadeeth under it, that mentions that the people of Jannah will see Allaah's Face and He will speak to them.

Brief Introduction to some of the deviant sects and their beliefs regarding the Qur'aan and its refutation


Waasil ibn `Ataa' was sitting with al-Hasan al-Basri (at this time there was the fitnah of the Khawaarij and the murji'ah), when a person came and asked al-Hasan al-Basri: "There are those who say that committing a sin makes you a disbeliever (i.e. the khawaarij) and some say that if you commit a sin you still have the eemaan of Jibreel (i.e. the Murji'ah)". Waasil ibn Ataa' replied "The person who commits a sin, he is neither a muslim nor a disbeliever but he is in a position between the two positions (i.e. He is neither a Muslim nor a Kaafir)"… it was said that later on he started his own circles. And when this happened al-Hasan al-Basri said: "I`tazilnaa (He left us)" And from Waasil ibn `Ataa' came the Mu`tazilah.

Some of their common beliefs is that they affirmed the Names of Allaah, but denied the attributes of Allaah. They denied that we will see Allaah on the day of Judgement, they denied intercession on the day of judgement- because they said Allaah is always Just and there is no need for intercession, they said that the will of Insaan overpowers the will of Allaah, they also mentioned that Insaan is a creator of his own actions. Finally, they also believed that the Qur'aan is created and they mention this explicitly.

According to the Jumhoor (majority of scholars), the Mu`tazilah are still within the fold of Islaam. We even know that Imaam Ahmad did not do khurooj (rebel) against the leader, due to this.


The main reason as to why the Mu`tazilah and the Jahmiyyah say that the Qur'aan is created is because they said that it would mean comparing Allaah with man and attributing to Him a body. However, this objection is not valid. Because, as we mentioned before- Allaah speaks as it befits His Majesty- thus there is no room for comparing between the attributes of Allaah and that of man.

For example: Allaah said in Soorah Yaa Seen: 65

الْيَوْمَ نَخْتِمُ عَلَىٰ أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَتُكَلِّمُنَا أَيْدِيهِمْ وَتَشْهَدُ أَرْجُلُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ

This Day, We shall seal up their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn.

We believe that the hands and feet will speak on that day, but the manner in which they will speak is unknown to us. Similarly, Allaah said in Soorah al-Fussilat: 21

وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدتُّمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ
And they will say to their skins, "Why do you testify against us?" They will say: "Allah has caused us to speak, as He causes all things to speak, and He created you the first time, and to Him you are made to return."

And likewise the narrations that mention that inanimate objects spoke. Like for example the narration of `Abdullaah ibn Mas`ood, while they were in a journey, as narrated by al-Bukhaari. Ibn Mas`ood said:

وَلَقَدْ كُنَّا نَسْمَعُ تَسْبِيحَ الطَّعَامِ وَهُوَ يُؤْكَلُ
And indeed we heard the food doing Tasbeeh (Glorifying Allaah) whilst it was being eaten.

And we have various other narrations where inanimate objects spoke like the stone that used to greet the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam etc. We know that sounds of articulated words came from them even though they did not have a mouth. We see that even from the creation of Allaah, we have things which we know spoke or will speak, yet the manner in which they will speak/spoke is unknown to us. And to Allaah belongs the Highest Example, as He said in Soorah al-Nahl: 60

وَلِلَّهِ الْمَثَلُ الْأَعْلَىٰ
And to Allaah belongs the Highest Example.


At the time of Imaam Ahmad- there emerged a group, and these people tried to reconcile between the traditional way and the rationalist way and this group was lead by Ibn Kullaab. So, they will try to use rational points to prove the traditional way. However, Imaam Ahmad warned against them- even though they came to the same conclusion as that of Imaam Ahmad, but the way they came to their conclusion was despised by the Imaam and thus he warned against them. From this group, came the Ashaa`irah.

The Ashaa`irah try to claim the way of Salaf to themselves. They claim to follow Abu'l Hasan al-Ash`ari- who we see was not upon what this group is upon. They normally, affirm all the Names of Allaah and 7 attributes of Allaah (some of them accept more than 7 attributes). However, they deny the rest of the other attributes of Allaah.


Generally, the following is what they say regarding the Qur'aan:

Allaah's speech is one whole entity and it is the thought/expression of Allaah which exists in Allaah's existence and is one meaning- so Allaah's orders and prohibitions are the same. They also say that if one meaning was expressed in Arabic, it would be the Qur'aan and if it was expressed in Hebrew it would be the Tawrah. This was the view of Ashaa`irah and this was the main view of the school, and this view originated from Ibn Kullaab. It is absurd to say this, because Kalaam consists of words and is utterance as opposed to what the Ashaa`irah mention

With regards to what they say about Allaah's speech being one whole entity- then with regards to this they say that the Words are created and they are called the Word of Allaah because they 'express' His speech and communicate. They mention that when it is expressed in Arabic, then it is the Qur'aan… if it is in Hebrew then it is the Tawrah and so on and so forth. Thus, they say that only the language varies but the speech does not. In reality, what they mean is that when we say it is the Speech of Allaah, then it is in a metaphorical sense.

This means that if all of it is one entity and all of it has the same meaning (as they say)- then this would mean that when Allaah, as mentioned in the Qur'aan, prohibits going close to Zinaa and commands us to establish the prayer- then they both carry the same meaning… i.e. the prohibitions and the commands carry the same meaning. In actual fact, according to this: Soorah al-Ikhlaas and Soorah al-Masad carry the same meaning. It is only common sense that this is totally absurd and is an argument that carries no weight- and is a belief that contradicts the belief of the Salaf.

They say that Allaah's speech is one whole entity- and by this they mean that the Speech of Allaah is not divided… so we ask: When Allaah spoke to Moosa, then did Moosa hear all of it (as it is one entity) or did he hear part of it? It is obvious that Moosa did not hear all of it, rather he heard in parts- which means it was divided When Allaah spoke to the angels after creating Aadam, then did he speak to them in parts or all of it- i.e when He said: [2:30] [2;34]. It is clear that Allaah spoke one part of it at a certain time, and another part of it at another time (after creating Aadam).
Also, Ibn Qudaamah refuted the Ashaa`irah in this point- that the Qur'aan is one whole entity- and mentioned that the Qur'aan is divided into 114 chapters.

The Ashaa`irah say that Allaah creates things in order to speak on His behalf- like the Ashaa`irah say that Allaah made Jibreel to speak on His behalf… ex: If a person cannot speak and indicates by gestures, expressions etc. then the person in front of him understands that- they say this was similar in the case of Jibreel. Others amongst the Ashaa`irah mention that Jibreel took the Qur'aan from al-Lauh al-Mahfooth- so that means that the Qur'aan is like the meaning of the words of Allaah rather it should be known that these words were first spoken by Allaah and thus it should be attributed to the One who first spoke it- i.e Allaah. Yes, without doubt the Qur'aan is written in al-Lauh al-Mahfooth as Allaah said in Soorah al-Burooj: 21-22:

بَلْ هُوَ قُرْآنٌ مَّجِيدٌ فِي لَوْحٍ مَّحْفُوظٍ
Nay! This is a Glorious Quran, (Inscribed) in The Preserved Tablet (Al-Lauh al-Mahfooth)!

Without doubt we clearly know how the Qur'aan was revealed- that is that the Qur'aan is the words of Allaah and Allaah spoke it- which was heard by Jibreel, who then descended to the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam and then the Qur'aan was heard by the Prophet sallAllaahu `alayhi wa-sallam, who then conveyed it to the Ummah.


As for the words of the Mu'allif: كَلامُ مَليكِنا

The words of Allaah does not only mean the Qur'aan, but rather it means that He spoke the Qur'aan and other than the Qur'aan like the Torah etc. So when the Mu`allif says "And say: The Speech of our great King is not created", then this is referring to the Qur'aan and other than the Qur'aan (like authentic Hadeeth Qudsi etc.)

This issue became a major issue at the time of Imaam Ahmad rahimahullaah. The Mu`tazilah took power at the time of the Imaam and when Ma'moon came into power, he obliged all the scholars to testify that the Qur'aan is created. Most of them gave in, and Yahya ibn Ma`een went to the court and mentioned that the Torah, the Injeel and the Qur'aan are created (referring to his fingers, so as to get away). However, Imaam Ahmed was one of the handful of people who never testified and thus was punished, jailed etc. He was imprisoned and beaten because he defended the fact that the words of Allaah are not created. And it is important that one should not belittle such actions from the great `Ulemaa' who stood firm in holding on to the truth. There will always be people whom Allaah will keep firm in this deen, and Imaam Ahmad was one of them, rahimahullaah!

Later on, Mutawakkil came into power and took away the mu`tazili ideology and Imaam Ahmad was freed. This is why he was called the Imaam of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaa`ah as was mentioned by Imaam adh-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubalaa' (Note: Imaam al-Dhahabi was a shaafi`ee scholar). After this point, Ahlus-Sunnah was victorious.

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Forth line:

وَلا تَكُ فِي القُرْآنِ بالوَقْفِ قَائِــلاً
كَمَا قَالَ أتْبَاعٌ لِجَهْمٍ وَأَسْجَحُوا

And do not be a person who takes no position on the Quran,
As did the followers of Jahm, and they had been too lax (to take the right position).

The author is warning us from those who are known as the "Waaqifah". There are those who are from the Jahmiyyah and they mention that the Qur'aan is neither created nor un-created.


The leader of the Jahmiyyah was Jahm ibn Safwaan. He was misguided at the hands of Indian philosophers. They asked Jahm: "Have you heard your Lord or saw your Lord etc….". and Jahm replied in the negative. They, then said 'You don't worship a Lord'. Jahm then left praying salaah for 40 days- he apostated.

Thereafter, Shaytaan came to him and whispered- then he came out and said that Allaah is only in the mind (i.e. acknowledgment of Allaah). This is why the definition of Eemaan according to the Jahmiyyah: Eemaan is acknowledging the existence of Allaah. According to this definition even Fir`aun is a Muslim, because he acknowledged the existence of Allaah before his death. Scholars have mentioned that according to Jahm's definition of Eemaan, even Jahm himself is a Kaafir- because he is the most ignorant of people regarding the existence of Allaah

Some of their other common beliefs is that they denied both the names and attributes of Allaah, denied that we will see Allaah on the day of judgement, the Qur'aan is created etc.

The Jahmiyyah are Kuffaar- as Ibn al-Qayyim, rahimahullaah, mentioned in his book al-Kaafiah al-Shaafiyah: "500 scholars, one after another, classified the Jahmiyyah as Kuffaar" and al-Tabaraani reported something similar to this as well.


Praise be to Allah!
What happened to this thread...? :D

Sorry- I just got busy with some stuff around me.

Inshaa'Allaah I will update this thread once we are ready to go.

P.S I just realized that the Line 3 document I uploaded- for some reason some of the arabic got messed up, so sister Seeking Allaah's mercy copied and pasted it wrong. Will edit and upload it soon inshaa'Allaah

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

What happened to this thread...? :D
It went to sleep=)

Sorry- I just got busy with some stuff around me.

Inshaa'Allaah I will update this thread once we are ready to go.

P.S I just realized that the Line 3 document I uploaded- for some reason some of the arabic got messed up, so sister Seeking Allaah's mercy copied and pasted it wrong. Will edit and upload it soon inshaa'Allaah

I don't know arabic so I didn't realised it went wrong. Apologies.

My classes have started, so it's hard to find time to use the net these days. Can we consider that one week's time idea, please?And maybe some sort of revision of the previous verses?

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Wasalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

I'm free for a while, so yes.

I want a week for submitting my answers Inshaa'Allaah, can we do that?