Proofs From The Scholars For The Niqaab

[thariq2005]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

BaarakAllaahu feekum. I was wondering if we could take the word of likes of Sheikh Shady in fiqh issues? I haven't heard his say on this niqaab issue but the sisters post made me think if we can, provided that he's got 'Aqeedah issues.

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

I wouldn't advise to do so. Generally, scholars don't advise people to take knowledge from those who have problems in `Aqeedah. Especially the stuff he propogates are very 'sly'- like tafweedh etc. These are very dangerous concepts that the Ashaa`irah use to decieve people that they are upon the madh-hab of the Salaf.

Brothers Please translate the 'arabic stuff that you write in your posts when you can. I know both of you posted for each other and your 'arabic is "healthy" but, some of us who were reading, need translations.

I did translate no? I mean the relevant parts anyways...

But basically Ibn Taymiyyah was saying about how the face and hands are from the zeenah of the woman and that she has been commanded to cover them and stuff.

Arabic is not healthy yet- I am still studying.

 

[Tomtom]

Brother TomTom, did you know that there is a consensus of the scholars that the least that can be said regarding the ruling on the Niqaab is that it is Mustahabb (i.e. preferred: A person will be rewarded for wearing it)- which then means that the Niqaab is legislated in this religion by the consensus of the scholars.

Also did you know that the consensus of the muslim scholars is a proof in this religion and it is one of the sources of Islaam like the Qur'aan and Sunnah?

Ok bruv thanks so it is up to the individual to wear the niqab or not.

With regard to the scholars I'm really trying as I've said before they are just human beings and we all know what the scholars of Judaism did?

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

@ Sister Seeking Allah's Mercy:
JazakAllah Khayran for taking the time to share the fatwa.
From what I gathered from it was that there must absolutely be a covering over the face (in the presence on non-mehrams) BUT it should not touch the face.
Am I right in this assessment?

BaarakAllaahu Feeki Ukhti. I'm still a bit confused about that "touching" thing. Let's wait for Samiha to throw some light on that one ('cos she mentioned it in her reply, but I'm a bit confused on her words)

wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuhu

Yes, I believe what was mentioned was something similar, only they didn't use the cloth just to cover the upper portion of their body (like a dupatta usually is) but their whole body, and extended a portion of that around their face. There may have been other ways, but what I'd heard was that this was a common method. This is as far as my memory serves me, maybe someone has more information about this?

From what you say it sounds more like the bedsheet size chadurs the Pathan women used to wear, some still do, but that culture is vanishing real fast. Khair Inshaa'Allaah. Jazaakillahu Khayraa.

The issue here is necessity. In Islaam the principle stands, that one should not harm themselves through actions that are done, and exceptions are created for it. Just my advice strictly, it seems that if a girl has eyes that stand out and she fears they may be a fitnah to others - then she should fear Allaah as much as possible and do what she can. There are types of niqaab that are hardly able to see the eyes, such as some of these - and I even believe one of the sisters there are wearing the type of niqaab which covers the eyes as well.

Mashaa'Allaah! that trio is awesome. I just can't get my hands on that type of "coverings". You see the one in the middle. This sister has it more like her, but the slit still shows her eyes (not shadowed like that). Now the thing is, too close to eyes the causes irritation (Eye lash problem). Can that be counted as a necessity. Inshaa'Allaah if you manage to find a fatwa, do share it please.

baarakAllaahu feeki - ukhti, if you read the fatawa carefully, ...whether by pulling down her khimaar, or having a separate cloth to cover it etc..

Yes, I got that Alhumdulillah. Jazaakillahu Khayraa.

The issue is less to do with if it touches the face, but instead if it clings to it and is what is taken as a standard niqaab.

wa'Allaahu A'lam

A bit of explaination here, please. It is alright if a loose garment is pulled down on the face and it touches the face as she walks, if wind is blowing etc Correct?

I asked because people down here do as Sister IslamicGirl24 mentioned before, they wear a p-cap and then slide a cloth over it, so as to prevent the cloth from "touching" the face at all.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

I wouldn't advise to do so. Generally, scholars don't advise people to take knowledge from those who have problems in `Aqeedah. Especially the stuff he propogates are very 'sly'- like tafweedh etc. These are very dangerous concepts that the Ashaa`irah use to decieve people that they are upon the madh-hab of the Salaf.

JazaakAllaahu khayraa. May be that post should be moderated then.

Tafweed. You used that word twice. If the word meaning thread was still active, I would put this word on my turn.

I did translate no? I mean the relevant parts anyways...

I saw some untranslated bits the other night. A hadith or two and some lines.

But basically Ibn Taymiyyah was saying about how the face and hands are from the zeenah of the woman and that she has been commanded to cover them and stuff.

I got this much from the over all sense of the post. But was wondering what that actually meant.

Arabic is not healthy yet- I am still studying.

Healthy enough to understand. May Allaah aid you in your studies. Ameen

Ok bruv thanks so it is up to the individual to wear the niqab or not.

With regard to the scholars I'm really trying as I've said before they are just human beings and we all know what the scholars of Judaism did?

It is up to the individual's study, understanding and so her belief to wear or not to wear the niqaab. If a woman believes it's fardh, she's to wear it.

The so called Scholars of the what-they-call- Islam also do that today. But the divine narrations say a group of People will always be on the truth till the day of ressurection. We are also told that this group will stick to the Qur'an and Sunnah, and that they will explain the Qur'an and Sunnah based on the understanding of the Companions, Their students and then the students of the students.

 

[thariq2005]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,


JazaakAllaahu khayraa. May be that post should be moderated then.

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Wa iyyaak. Yup, moderated it

Tafweed. You used that word twice. If the word meaning thread was still active, I would put this word on my turn.

I don't want to get into the meaning of Tafweedh in this thread as it is totally going to go off topic. If you want, you can post on that Arabic word meanings thread and the discussion can go on there inshaa'Allaah. But it can get pretty confusing though.

Healthy enough to understand. May Allaah aid you in your studies. Ameen

Aameen.

 

[thariq2005]

Ok bruv thanks so it is up to the individual to wear the niqab or not.

Yes it is up to an individual to pray 5 times a day as well. It is up to an individual to pray 12 extra voluntary units of prayer every day as well.

We are talking about whether it is legislated and if it is legislated then what is the ruling of it. In terms of rulings in the sharee`ah, these are of five types:

Al-Waajib (Obligatory), Mustahabb (recommended), Al-Mubaah (permissible), Al- Makrooh (offensive), Haraam (Forbidden)

1) Waajib (Obligatory): This is anything for which one is rewarded if performed and will be punished if left out.

2) Mustahabb (Recommded): This is anything for which one is rewarded for if performed and not punished if left out.

3) Mubaah (Permissible): This is for which one is neither rewarded nor punished for performing the action or leaving it.

4) Makrooh (Disliked): This is anything for which one is rewarded if left out, and not punished if performed.

5) Haraam (Forbidden): This is anything for which one will be punished if performed and rewarded for leaving it out.

Every single thing we do in life, all fall under one of the above 5 rulings of the Sharee`ah. Whether we do anything related to acts of worship or anything related to dunya- everything comes under these five categories.

Based on that- Niqaab is either number 1) or 2) and there is a consensus amongst the scholars that the 'least' that can be said is that the niqaab is Mustahabb (number 2).

Now, what many people propogate is that the niqaab is actually number 3 or number 4 and the worst of them say number 5.

Some of the 'liberal' muslims say that the Niqaab is a cultural thing and thus is Mubaah (i.e. number 3). Other, more extreme 'liberal' muslims say that this is a barrier to integration etc. and then say that the niqaab is either Makrooh or Haraam.

With regard to the scholars I'm really trying as I've said before they are just human beings and we all know what the scholars of Judaism did?

Okay what you need to understand about scholars is that:

They are not infallible and yes there are evil scholars and there has been evil 'scholars' who have introduced evil into society, bid`ah into the muslim masses, Kufr into society etc.

But at the same time we have the complete opposite, where the scholars are the ones who carry the religion and through them- Allaah preserves this religion. Think about it: if all the scholars for 1400 years agree upon one matter, and this is what the entire Muslim Ummah has agreed upon... then how can it be the case that a person comes and brings the 'truth' after 1400 years? Apart from the evidences we have that support the validity of the scholarly consensus, we have simple common sense- does this mean that Allaah left the entire Muslim Ummah in misguidance for 1400 years? What about the narration of the Prophet :saw2: that there will always remain a group upon the truth? This is why, Islaam is a stable religion and has been stable from the start and will remain upon stability till the last hour.

 

[Um Ibrahim]

:salam2:

I saw someone mention that the face veil is only for beautiful women, is that true? and even if it is, how can we determine who is beautiful? Everyone has their preferences. So not all men find the same type of women beautiful. Just wanted to say that identity plays a major role also in both the men and the women's dress in Islam. So niqab and hijab is to identify that the woman is Muslim. It even say so in the Hijab ayah.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

I don't want to get into the meaning of Tafweedh in this thread as it is totally going to go off topic. If you want, you can post on that Arabic word meanings thread and the discussion can go on there inshaa'Allaah. But it can get pretty confusing though.

I'll see if I can get that thread started again. If it happens, please keep an eye on it.

BaarakAllahu feek.

 

[wantobeMumin]

:salam2:

I am so impressed with all the knowledgeable people here especially brother "islamissimple" and brother "tariq". Where were you all this time? Where are these books with english translation of Al Albani? And why was i not born in Arab country so i could read and understand these books better.*sigh*

I always knew Niqab is better but optional in most scholarly opinions but now i know why. keep is going i need to know more.

 

[samiha]

Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

Mashaa'Allaah! that trio is awesome. I just can't get my hands on that type of "coverings". You see the one in the middle. This sister has it more like her, but the slit still shows her eyes (not shadowed like that). Now the thing is, too close to eyes the causes irritation (Eye lash problem). Can that be counted as a necessity. Inshaa'Allaah if you manage to find a fatwa, do share it please.

wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuhu

I see, well ... I stand by my principle before, that she should fear Allaah as much as possible and fulfill her obligations of wearing correct niqaab, as well as lowering her gaze and try her best to do what her heart feels content with.

I found another fatwa in relation to a question I believe you did ask about before, about "Uncovering the eyes unnecessarily" ...

Hence the fuqaha’ and scholars said that it is permissible for a woman to wear niqab, but that is on condition that she does not go to extremes in uncovering the eye socket or show too much of the cheeks.

Imam al-Ramli ash-Shaafa‘i (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It is haraam to look at a woman in niqab of whom nothing can be seen except her eyes, especially if she is beautiful. How much fitnah may be caused by looking at a woman’s eyes. End quote from Nihaayat al-Muhtaaj, 6/188

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah ad-Daa’imah: With regard to the niqaab: Abu ‘Ubayd said, describing the niqab according to the Arabs: it is that from which the eye appears. It was known by other names, including “burqa‘”. As for the ruling on it, it is permissible.
....
Once the above becomes clear, we will realise that there is nothing wrong with a woman wearing a niqaab from which only her eyes appear through a narrow opening which does not uncover anything more than what is needed in order to see. The ruling that this is permissible is not dependent upon there being any need; rather it is generally applicable and it is permissible for her to wear the niqab whether the woman needs to see where she is going or not, and whether she is sitting in a car or walking down the street. The evidence quoted above which indicates that it is permissible to wear the niqab was narrated in a hadeeth of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and the tafseer of Ibn ‘Abbaas is general in application and is not restricted to cases of necessity.

Full fatwa: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/165349

Uncovering the eyes to see, according to this opinion is a legitimate option.

Oh, and about the eyes being a source of fitnah, I just came across a post from Brother Ayman bin Khaled from Multaqa about this, and since he is a knowledgeable brother masha'Allaah, I thought I would quote his opinion:

a. Majority of scholars obligate covering the body of a woman except her face and hands.

b. The view that exist within the Hanbali Madhab view that obligate covering the face is because they view the face is part of the A'wrah based on the hadeeth :" all the woman is A'wrah". This view discuss the issue of covering the face and not just limiting the obligation to wear Niqab as Khimar [i.e. covering the face in total] is a form they advocate as well.

c. Both sides agree that covering the face is virtious and praised the act.

d. If a sister believes covering the face is obligatory then realizes that her eyes in niqab made her more cause of Fitna she must cover her eyes too.

e. if the sister believes that covering the face is virtuous and only preferable [the view of the majority] then after she wore the niqab she realized that due to her eyes men started to look at her more and that she becomes prettier for that, she should cover her eyes or fix her niqab in a way that that reason of fitna disappears. [also she is better to consult people of knowledge in her area as they understand the norms of people and condition of the society].

Source: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=3740&page=4

I would advise that the sister be absolutely confirmed that this is something which causes fitnah, and if so, then do her best to act on what she feels is correct, or ask a local scholar/knowledgeable person to get more information. May Allaah facilitate ease for her.

A bit of explaination here, please. It is alright if a loose garment is pulled down on the face and it touches the face as she walks, if wind is blowing etc Correct?

According to Islam-QA, yes. They say it's a misconception to say that the cloth cannot touch a woman's face. It should not be bound to her face/head or act like a separate piece, like the niqaab, but I've not come across anything yet which says it cannot touch her face.

Allaahu A'lam

Allaah knows best.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuhu

I see, well ... I stand by my principle before, that she should fear Allaah as much as possible and fulfill her obligations of wearing correct niqaab, as well as lowering her gaze and try her best to do what her heart feels content with.

I believe in this case she has to find a way to cover her eyes without getting anything in contact them. She said that really irritates and makes her eyes all watery. She tries to make the slit a small as possible but when the edges of the scarf touch the eyelash, the eyes start watering.

I found another fatwa in relation to a question I believe you did ask about before, about "Uncovering the eyes unnecessarily" ...

Uncovering the eyes to see, according to this opinion is a legitimate option.

Oh, and about the eyes being a source of fitnah, I just came across a post from Brother Ayman bin Khaled from Multaqa about this, and since he is a knowledgeable brother masha'Allaah, I thought I would quote his opinion:

Where IslamQA blames the males and advices them, Shaykh ayman puts the responsibility on the female in question. That's just not fair. We can't go around in a box made out of tin with our feet sticking out of the bottom. I mean I wouldn't mind but they are not available!

I would advise that the sister be absolutely confirmed that this is something which causes fitnah, and if so, then do her best to act on what she feels is correct, or ask a local scholar/knowledgeable person to get more information. May Allaah facilitate ease for her.

How do we confirm that? Ukhti seriously, don't take it as a joke but how do we know what the XYs are thinking of ones eyes. No one bothers her, but some of her classmates who haven't seen her face as yet, told her what they imagined her to look like. She thinks this inaccurate picture of her popped in their minds because her eyes are beautiful/stand out etc. Their imagination worry her.

According to Islam-QA, yes. They say it's a misconception to say that the cloth cannot touch a woman's face. It should not be bound to her face/head or act like a separate piece, like the niqaab, but I've not come across anything yet which says it cannot touch her face.

Allaahu A'lam

Allaah knows best.

Jazaakillahu Khayraa for explaining this bit.

 

[thariq2005]

"And also, it is not authentic, what was narrated by the Usaad (Al Maudidi) about Ibn Abbas in the interpertation of the verse saying :

"Allah ordered the women believers if they leave their houses when needed, to cover their faces (from above their heads) with the Jilbaab. He attributed this to Al Tabari 22/33. And he did not mention the whole text, and the rest of it has "and they show one eye!!" I (Al Albani) say :

This is isnt proved from Ibn Abass, because Al Tabari narrated it from Ali from him. And This Ali, is Ibn Abi Talhah, as Ibn Katheer mentioned as Muallaq. And he, even though some Imams spoke about him, didnt hear from Ibn Abbas, and didnt even meet him. It is said by some, Mujaahid is between them, if this is correct, then its connected. By the route from him is Abu Saleh, whose name is Abdallah Ibn Saleh, and he has weakness. Jareer also narrated something else from Ibn Abass, and it is also weak in its chain.

Today, I listened to a lecture by our teacher on the topic of niqaab- so as to put in the missing parts into my notes. Here is what was mentioned about the narration of Ibn `Abbaas.

Scholars have differed on the authenticity of Ibn `Abbaas’s narration. They said that `Ali ibn Abi Talhah narrates from Ibn `Abbaas and the link between both of them is broken as there is a gap. However, other scholars mentioned that he narrates from Ibn `Abbaas narrates through the students of Ibn `Abbaas and they were `Ikrimah (one of the famous students of Ibn `Abbaas) and Mujaahid (from the most knowledgeable students of ibn `Abbaas).

The other person they weakened in the chain was `Abdullaah ibn Saalih. Some of the scholars classified him as thiqah like Yahya ibn Ma`een, `Abdul Malik ibn Shu`ayb and others. However, Imaam al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh depended on Ibn Saalih when he (i.e. Ibn Saalih) narrates from his book. And this is why Ibn Hajar said in Taqreeb al-Tahdheeb that Ibn Saalih is Sadooq and makes a lot of mistakes, but it is proven that he is reliable when he narrates from his book. And in this narration, he narrates from his book.

WAllaahu A`lam
Wassalaamu `alaykum

 

[I.Iman]

It's a big slander on that sheikh Suleiman. If you acctually listen to his lesson (and others) you would find he is talking not from him self, but from Qura'n and Hadith.

You should know the schollars disagree, and that women are forbid to pray with niqab and glows. It says Pray, not mahram. Suleiman mentions all shollars opinions and they all have their "proofs". So you cannot blame the one for listen to one schollar. So if NO ONE can agree, what do we do? We look in the Qura'n.

Yet we cannot find it anywhere where Allah swt or Propeth Muhammed specifically order women to cover their faces (like with veil without niqab). Or correct me if I'm wrong, then you can tell me, or us, I know we are plenty who like to know.

 

[lostlilly07]

Wa alaikum salaam.

Whether wearing niqab is wajib or not at the end of the day, I think we all can agree wearing the niqab is better( if not oh well to each is his own). I think some sisters let there desires interfere with the truth.
T

 

[TheAuthenticBase]

Wa alaikum salaam.

Whether wearing niqab is wajib or not at the end of the day, I think we all can agree wearing the niqab is better( if not oh well to each is his own). I think some sisters let there desires interfere with the truth.
T

Ibn ‘Uthaymeen says:

“So every affair that is purely good or of which the good is superior to its evil, then it is prescribed in the religion as something either obligatory or recommended.

And every affait that is purely evil or of which the evil is superior to its good, then it is prescribed in the religion as something either forbidden or disliked.”​

[Taken from "The Four Essays On The Obligation Of Veiling" Ch. 2: An Essay On Hijaab, p. 41]

http://ibnuthaymeen.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-niqaab-is-nothing-but-good/

 

[TheAuthenticBase]

It's a big slander on that sheikh Suleiman. If you acctually listen to his lesson (and others) you would find he is talking not from him self, but from Qura'n and Hadith.

You should know the schollars disagree, and that women are forbid to pray with niqab and glows. It says Pray, not mahram. Suleiman mentions all shollars opinions and they all have their "proofs". So you cannot blame the one for listen to one schollar. So if NO ONE can agree, what do we do? We look in the Qura'n.

Yet we cannot find it anywhere where Allah swt or Propeth Muhammed specifically order women to cover their faces (like with veil without niqab). Or correct me if I'm wrong, then you can tell me, or us, I know we are plenty who like to know.

We have the Quraan and the sunnah with us, but we are still divided... y? not because we dont refer back to the quraan/sunnah, but because of our understanding of the verses and hadeeths...

It is our understanding of the quraan/sunnah which causes division in the ummah..

So just bcz someone quotes form the quaan/sunnah, doesn't mean that he is upon the haqq....

read this article for more info: The Dhaahirees Approach To The Quraan & Sunnah, (Example 2), By Sh. Mashhoor

even the dhaahirees quotes quraan/sunnah however they are misguided. Even the ash'arees quote quraan/sunnah but they are still misguided.

Guidance does not mean quoting quraan/sunnah.... guidance is quoting quraan/sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf.

so just by quoting quraan/sunnah, a person doesnt become on the haqq, he must also give you the understanding of the salaf (on the verses/hadeeth he is quoting)....

Regarding this^ read this for more info: The Opinion Of The Sahaabah Is Better Than Our Own Opinion

No hard feelings... plz do correct me if u feel i am in error...