Proofs From The Scholars For The Niqaab

Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by TheAuthenticBase, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    Assalamu'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    I remember a post by Sister Samiha some time ago that covers pretty much of you [and Sister Sakeena] concerns/question. So I'll just quote it here, for eveyrone's benefits. Jazaaha Allaahu khaayraa.

    http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=444053&postcount=13

    With regards to scholarly opinions, the best way is to make her understand first where scholarly opinions lie in Islaam. Quran and Sunnah are our main sources but scholarly opinions are also needed as they are people of knowledge [who have dedicated their *whole* life learning the deen] and we have even been commanded in the Quran to ask people of knowledge when we do not know. But not to the extent that we become ta'asub with certain scholars nor do we take from everyone who claim to be as "scholars". It is only the true knowledge that we take from the learned people for the sake that we will understand the deen better, inshaAllaah.

    Hope this thread gives some points you can share to her, inshaAllaah.

    The Obligation of Following the Worthy Scholars and a Timely Warning


    :wasalam:
  2. lostlilly07
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    lostlilly07 striving 4 Firadous

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    wa alaikum salaam,

    I am sorry but the deen is our religion so be careful who you take your deen from and I would never take my deen from a person who does speak arabic as language nor has studied it (Islam) intenstly so for these reasons that is why I FOLLOW THE SCHOLARS OPINIONS and not reading the Qur'an or Hadiths because I do not have sufficent knowledge nor do many common folks.
  3. lostlilly07
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    As salaamu Alaikum

    Does anyone remember the hadith in which the man came to the Prophet (SAWS) about marrying a woman and he (prophet) asked if he saw her? The man replied "no", so the prophet told him to go back ans see her because their is something in the eyes of the ansar woman"...well I THINK (MY conclusion not that of a scholar) is because the woman's face was covered and only her eyes were showing so the prophet (SAWS) advised the man to go back and see her face. I will try to find this hadith and copied it down.
  4. Sakeena
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    I am not using this against hijab nor am I against hijb in any way!! Did you hear me say I am against hijab or don't like hijab? No you didn't. I was simply making a point and you failed to answer my question yet you accuse me and "others" of rejecting hijab which is NOT true, at least not for me. I simple noticed that hijab wasn't in the Quran and is mentioned in hadith, and have met Muslims who say they follow Qur'an but reject Hadith and Sunnah which makes no sense and they arre often in full hijaab. I don't wear hijab yet, but I follow Islam as best as I can.

  5. lovefordeen
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    wa'alaikum assalaam wa rahmathulahi wa barakathuhu

    dear sister,i have seen some women covering their entire faces...with both their eyes covered.....but i don't know how it is wrapped....
  6. ShahnazZ
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    Sakeena, what are you talking about?

    I wasn't talking about you. I was saying that some women that I know personally used the same argument as a way of arguing against hijab but I wasn't saying that you were one of them.

    Please read posts entirely before making assumptions.
  7. Um Ibrahim
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    Um Ibrahim Alhamdulilah :)

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    :salam2:

    I really like this topic. Even though I wear the Niqab I am still confused as to if it is wajib or just sunna, Allahu A'lam. Either way, I know the benefits of Niqab are many; but of course there are many challenges that come with it as well especially when living in a country where the majority are non-Muslim. But for those who say it is only cultural and not Islamic, they need to answer the following questions: why were the wives of the Prophet commanded to wear it? We know that there were women at the time of the Prophet who used to cover their faces, why didn't he,the prophet tell them it is not necessary? Why didn't he stop them? Even if Niqab is not compulsory to wear, all of the scholars of Islam agree that it is good to wear it if the woman wants to and it is even recommended.

    Shanaz, I would advice you to just ignore those women who are criticizing you about your hijab--I think they just want to bring you down to their level. Unless people just want to follow their desires and whims and their own interpretation of the Quran, it is very clear that Muslim women are commanded in the Quran by Allah to cover their body. Thats why the wives and daughters of the Prophet as well as other Muslim women at that time used to wear Hijab and Niqab. when those women who are criticizing you doubt the fact that Muslim women have to wear Hijab to cover their bodies, they are doubting the Prophet and the Quran. You should tell them that, and if they don't listen, then just ignore anything they say to you.
  8. Tomtom
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    OK the scholars can think what they like. I'm going to post two different tasfirs and they both say different things.


    * تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
    { يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّ قُل لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلاَبِيبِهِنَّ ذٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً }

    O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks closely over themselves (jalābīb is the plural of jilbāb, which is a wrap that covers a woman totally) — in other words, let them pull part of it [also] over their faces, leaving one eye [visible], when they need to leave [the house] for something. That makes it likelier that they will be known, to be free women, and not be molested, by being approached. In contrast, slavegirls did not use to cover their faces and so the disbelievers used to pester them. And God is Forgiving, of any occasion in the past when they may have neglected to cover themselves, Merciful, to them in His veiling them.


    * تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
    { يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّ قُل لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلاَبِيبِهِنَّ ذٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً }

    (O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them) to cover their necks and bosoms ((when they go abroad). That will be better, that so they may be recognised) as free women (and not annoyed) and not be harmed by the fornicators. (Allah is ever Forgiving) He forgives what they have done in the past, (Merciful) He shows mercy on them regarding that which they will do in the future.

    So what this is telling us is that this ayat is open to interpretation and I suspect personal preference has seeped in. Now let us look at the Quranic translations.

    Muhsin Khan
    O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.

    Sahih International
    O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

    Pickthall
    O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

    Yusuf Ali
    O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Shakir
    O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Dr. Ghali
    O you Prophet, say to your spouses and your daughters and the women of believers, that they draw their outer garments closer to them; that will (make) it likelier that they will be recognized and so will not be hurt. And Allah has been Ever-Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.

    Niqab is a personal preference for women. Who am I you will ask?
  9. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    Perhaps this is a bit off-topic but worth to ponder upon:

  10. samiha
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    Wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuhu

    Although brother Idris has answered this before, I just wanted to add in a tip that any time you see "He" with a capital H in the middle of a sentence, it will most probably relate to Allaah subhanhu wa ta'ala - unless it's a typo. It's a common distinction in the English language, so being aware of it will save a lot of trouble insha'Allaah !

    What I heard from a scholar before, was that women of that time wore niqaab very differently to what we think of today as 'niqaab'. It was more of a part of their garment which was taken and wrapped around their face. So it was more 'moveable' I suppose and so even if they covered one eye, another could be uncovered, as necessity states - to see the way. Some women nowadays chose to not uncover their eyes at all in the understanding that even with their eyes covered they can see the way, as is sometimes possible with the thinner niqaab coverings.

    Either case, I don't believe it's a problem insha'Allaah as long as the conditions the scholars have mentioned are maintained, such as not making the opening for the eyes much larger than necessary and including things such as the forehead etc.

    Second is the case of standing out - and if this is done on purpose then of course she should cover up, since this is an adornment. Like some sisters wear a lot of eye make-up which causes attention to be drawn to the eyes (and defeats the purpose?), and so in this case she should either make sure its not seen or she covers it up in public (as I have been told).

    But as for if they naturally stand out? I don't know and I havent heard so I cant say.

    I havent seen a scholar, from at least the ones I follow, totally prohibit it. Here's some information which may be helpful insha'Allaah, and I believe it also gives some explanation as to why the understanding comes about that no cloth should touch the face (although it doesnt seem to be entirely accurate):

    Source: http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=96434

    Source: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/36619/
  11. samiha
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    I need to honestly ask you something brother: Do you know what a tafseer is? As in what it means?

    Because I see you reference it a lot, and then in the same breath say something about scholars and their need (or lack of need rather) and/or dismissing them. Which is a complete and utter oxymoron (joke?) if you're going to be quoting tafseers. Or even the Muhsin Khan translation. Not to mention any translation.

    But anyway, if possible, please answer the first question? It would really help me to understand.
  12. Tomtom
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    Yes indeed a tasfir is an interpretation by somebody of the Holy Qur'an. This is accepted in Islam because people are not allowed to or are afraid to use their intellect. This is the best we have so that's why I had to use it, the best we have in the sense they are the only translations we can use today, official.

    This is the reason why I've used different translations to highlight the difference in them. What I'd like to know is who gave these scholars authority? Ok don't answer that because we've gone through it and I'll only be crucified for asking it.
  13. IslamIsSimple
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    Brother Tomtom, I agree with you. Theres different interpertations. This is exactly when there was a discussion earlier. This doesnt mean opening the door for anyone to interpret based on his opinion with no criteria for interpertation.

    But the difference of opinion, isnt based on there mere opinion of me, you, or any sheikh. Its on trying to understand how the early Muslims, the companions and the wives of the prophet, actually understood these verses.

    For instance, you said Niqab is an option. Yes, according to the opinion I find more convincing, this is correct ( as an option that is preferred). I dont find this correct, because it was Al Albani who thought so, and not TomTom, but because looking into how it was understood by the wives of the prophet peace be upon him and the companions - May Allah be pleased with them, it seems this is what the verses actually meant.

    So theres a methodology for Tafseer, and one this methodology is used, then the difference in opinion becomes understandable and acceptable. Otherwise it would mean opening the door for everyone to makeup things and twist verses as they wish without any criteria or methodology. Even if some have good intentions, if you allow it for yourself, you allow it for others with ill intentions who end up making up a new religion altogether, twisting verses as they go on.

    Qur'aan 3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

    As for using intellect, having a methodology and criteria is the highest form of using intellect.

    As for the translations, I agree with you, I frankly find problems with all translations, each having its own unique "problems" or reservations. However this is natural, because a translation of the Qur'aan, isnt a Qur'aan. Its humans best effort in translating its meanings, therefore, and due to the human element, theres always flaws.
  14. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,


    BaarakAllaahu feekum. I was wondering if we could take the word of likes of Sheikh Shady in fiqh issues? I haven't heard his say on this niqaab issue but the sisters post made me think if we can, provided that he's got 'Aqeedah issues.


    Brothers Please translate the 'arabic stuff that you write in your posts when you can. I know both of you posted for each other and your 'arabic is "healthy" but, some of us who were reading, need translations.

    JazaakumAllaahu khayraa.
    I think sister IslamicGirl was right when she said it shouldn't cling to the face:

    Source

    Niqaab clings to the face so I suppose that's why its forbidden. Also the fatwa Sister Samiha's shared also says that since niqaab is tight fitting it cannot be worn unless the woman in question is left with no choice but to cover with niqaab. (underlined bit was in the fatwa I posted)
  15. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,
    I was thinking about wearing some real thick smoky glasses sometime ago. Didn't work 'cos I didn't get them.

    BaarakAllaah feekum for the clarification. I suppose I didn't notice the capital "H''

    Moveable niqaab? Like wrapping a Dupatta?

    But thinner niqaab shows the face when light falls directly on the face. I've seen some of my classmates' faces even with their niqaab on 'cos they wore a thin niqaab.

    This actually. You see it becomes wajib to wear niqaab for a girl whose beautiful. But what if a girl who is not beautiful, wears a niqaab is thought to be, because her eyes stand out naturally. I was wondering if she's at fault?

    JazaakAllaah khair for the fatawaa but I found another one last night which says something to the effect of covering the face being fine but not wearing a niqaab as it's forbidden. I shared it with with sister IslamicGirl24.
  16. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    Who? Allaah in the Quraan, The Prophet in His Narrations gave those with knowledge the authority to explain and teach.

    The question is more of "what" actually. So it's their knowledge that gives them the authority.
  17. Tomtom
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    Ok bro I know where you are coming from. Take a look at this.

    Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:
    `Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."
    Bukhari
    English reference: Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 282
    Arabic reference: Book 65, Hadith 4806

    Ok the beloved wife of the Prophet (pbuh) cut her waist sheet at the edges and covered her face. Why? The Quranic verse only mentions necks and bosoms and the face is above both the neck and the bosom.

    Now look at this.

    Umm 'Atiyya reported:
    The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) commanded us to bring out on'Id-ul-Fitr and 'Id-ul-Adha young women, menstruating women and purdah-observing ladies, menstruating women kept back from prayer, but participated in goodness and supplication of the Muslims. I said: Messenger of Allah, one of us does not have an outer garment (to cover her face and body). He said: Let her sister cover her with her outer garment.
    Muslim
    English reference: Book 4, Hadith 1934
    Arabic reference: Book 9, Hadith 2093

    The words in bracket were inserted by somebody to highlight the face and body. "One of us does not have an outer garment" does not necessarily mean to cover the face as well.

    Another example.


    Narrated `Aisha:
    Once Allah's Apostle entered upon me and he was in a very happy mood and said, "O `Aisha: Don't you know that Mujazziz Al-Mudliji entered and saw Usama and Zaid with a velvet covering on them and their heads were covered while their feet were uncovered. He said, 'These feet belong to each other.'
    Bukhari
    English reference: Vol. 8, Book 80, Hadith 762
    Arabic reference: Book 85, Hadith 6857

    In the example above, the Prophet (pbuh) says their heads were covered, does that also include the face?

    We can take the premise that the family of the Prophet covered their faces as a personal preference rather than as a rule of law or as ordered by the Prophet, otherwise it would have been crystal clear that ALL muslim women should cover their faces. Since this is missing, we can assume that wearing a niqab is a personal preference, only those who want to can cover their faces.
  18. IslamicGirl24
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    @ Sister Seeking Allah's Mercy:
    JazakAllah Khayran for taking the time to share the fatwa. :)
    From what I gathered from it was that there must absolutely be a covering over the face (in the presence on non-mehrams) BUT it should not touch the face.
    Am I right in this assessment?
  19. samiha
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    wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuhu

    Yes, I believe what was mentioned was something similar, only they didn't use the cloth just to cover the upper portion of their body (like a dupatta usually is) but their whole body, and extended a portion of that around their face. There may have been other ways, but what I'd heard was that this was a common method. This is as far as my memory serves me, maybe someone has more information about this?

    Well ukhti, it's actually different. I have a few of these types and what it is, is that the first layer which covers the forehead and face is thicker - and then on top of that there's a second layer which is thinner and can be used to cover the eyes, so that unless a girl is directly in front of light - nobody will be able to see her eyes, but she's able to see out of it (relatively). So it's the layer which covers the eyes and their face is at no point able to be seen.

    The issue here is necessity. In Islaam the principle stands, that one should not harm themselves through actions that are done, and exceptions are created for it. Just my advice strictly, it seems that if a girl has eyes that stand out and she fears they may be a fitnah to others - then she should fear Allaah as much as possible and do what she can. There are types of niqaab that are hardly able to see the eyes, such as some of these - and I even believe one of the sisters there are wearing the type of niqaab which covers the eyes as well.

    But - if the necessity is that wearing it in these manners or ways may lead her to be unable to see where is going/what she is doing, then she should leave enough open to be able to go about her business without difficulty (as the hadeeth indicates) - since a person could come to serious harm if they are not able to see around them properly. And I do not believe she is at fault, as long as she does what she can and doesn't encourage fitan. The eyes in general are not as apparent as the face. You see the face/beauty even if you don't intend to, but with the eyes unless you're faced directly or nearby, or stared at - it's often not an issue of immediate attraction.

    Again, for now this is just my opinion and advice. If I get a fatwa about this from a trustworthy source (or maybe someone else knows) - then I'll be sure to bring it insha'Allaah.

    baarakAllaahu feeki - ukhti, if you read the fatawa carefully, they say the same thing. The reason niqaab was forbidden was because of the nature of it - according to the first source - as it clings to the face/head in most forms, as well as gloves. So this is why it was prohibited (which I found interesting because I didn't think of it like that before), but that doesn't mean that covering the face is incorrect at all. Rather if you look at the fatawa again, both of them agree that a woman who wears niqaab should still cover her face through another manner, whether by pulling down her khimaar, or having a separate cloth to cover it etc..

    The issue is less to do with if it touches the face, but instead if it clings to it and is what is taken as a standard niqaab.

    wa'Allaahu A'lam
  20. thariq2005
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    Brother TomTom, did you know that there is a consensus of the scholars that the least that can be said regarding the ruling on the Niqaab is that it is Mustahabb (i.e. preferred: A person will be rewarded for wearing it)- which then means that the Niqaab is legislated in this religion by the consensus of the scholars.

    Also did you know that the consensus of the muslim scholars is a proof in this religion and it is one of the sources of Islaam like the Qur'aan and Sunnah?

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