sujood of forgetfullness??

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

أي مذهب؟ هي رواية عن مالك و لاكن ليس مشهور في مذهبه, و الله أعلم

Am I relieved. Akhi Could you check my profile and see what the brother is trying to convey to me. He's writing arabic and then translating into english and the english to arabic, It's a mess!

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=513287
I'll read you reply to the Questions later Inshaa'Allah.
Jazakallah khair!

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Insha'Allah, I will be able to provide the authentication.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh
But if you just mispronounced a letter or word and you went back right there and then and corrected it, its fine you do not have to make Sajdah al-Sahw.

Right, and if it's an ayah we miss?

The spitting is specifically for "Waswaas" or if you can say: whisperings of Shaytaan. It does not apply to actually forgetting. If you make a mistake in your recitation and you realize your mistake at a later stage of your recitation, then as I mentioned before this needs further explanation and clarification:

I see! It's good you explained it. Simple missing needs no khanzaab fighting.

NOTE: There is no breaking prayer required from you in this situation.

And how do we pronounce this word khanzab? is it with "Kha-" like the word "khasiroon" or with "kaaf" like the word "Kafir".

Also, is it ''Khanzab" or "Khinzab". My book mentions it as "khinzab".

Yes. If you remember, we do Sujood al-Sahw before the Tasleem for missing the Waajibaat.

Yes Inshaa'Allah I remember that. I'll have to read the book once more to refresh it all though. You said you'll provide evidence. Can you still do so? Both the opinions if possible?

Three Questions here:

First: In the above mentioned list, first tashahud is not in the pillars' list but you provided Ibn Uthaymeen's fatwa after saying:

If you missed a pillar and made up for it, but forgot to perform Sujood al-Sahw and you remember after a short while after salaah- then you do the Sujood al-Sahw. But if you remember after a long time, then your salaah is valid.

Second: The two fatwa are in contradiction. First says it's valid. The second says it's invalid *confused*

But obviously if you remember that you missed a pillar after a short while, then you make up for it and complete your prayer. If you remember after a long time, like half hour or so- then in this case you consider your prayer invalid and pray your Salaah again. This was mentioned by the Noble Scholar- Ibn Jibreen.

Third: whichever is correct, Does the same apply for missing sajdah sahw incase of missing both i.e faraidh and wajibaat? or Just incase of missing the faraidh and forgetting to perform the sujood?

Wassalaamu `alaykum

Wa alaikom wasalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

:salam2:

MashaAllah, this is a very beneficial and useful thread. Sister Seeking Allah's Mercy's detailed questions and Brother Thariq's knowledgeable answers have covered a lot about Salaah over the course of the thread.

Wa alaikom asalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

JazallahKhair for you kind words sister. I remember you having trouble with understanding sajdah sahw too? See if it answers your questions. If not, you are free to ask here. Inshaa'Allah they'll get answered.

You had some trouble understanding the sequence if I recall correctly. check the following post, it may clear your confusion.
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=470210&postcount=16

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Assalaam walaikum,

wa alaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

I asked a brother we all respect

Lemme guess?! *smiles*

but instead of saying “Sunhaana Rabbiy Al-`Azheem” (Sanctified is my Lord, the Grand) three times, you instead say once, “Subhaana man la yashoo wa la yanaam” (Sanctified is He who does not get distracted, nor sleeps).

I heard these words for the first time. Beautiful in meaning, but I want proof please.

So, let’s take a few examples:

1. You prayed `Ishaa’ three rak`aat instead of four. In this case, you rise up, say “Allaahu Akbar”, pray a rak`a until you say the Tashahhud. Then, and before Tasleem, you make the two prostrations and then make the Tasleem.
2. You prayed `Ishaa’ five rak`aat instead of four. In this case, you rise up, say “Allaahu Akbar”, then immediately sit down, make the two prostrations of Sahw then say the Tasleem.
3. You forgot to make the first Tashahhud, or you made three prostrations instead of two, etc. This case is like the second case above. You only make the two prostrations of Sahw.

Beautiful explaination, Jazakallah khair. That booklet akhi Thariq shared explains all of this and explains about the cases of doubt too. I recommend everyone to give it a quick read. It's pretty short.

 

[thariq2005]

Right, and if it's an ayah we miss?

I thought the chances of missing an ayah in al-Faatihah is very very slim, but nonetheless if you correct yourself there and then- its fine inshaa'Allaah. If you remember in the next raka`ah that you missed an ayah in al-Faatihah in the previous raka`ah... then your previous raka`ah is invalid.

And how do we pronounce this word khanzab? is it with "Kha-" like the word "khasiroon" or with "kaaf" like the word "Kafir".

Also, is it ''Khanzab" or "Khinzab". My book mentions it as "khinzab".

خَنْزَبٌ <<< That is the arabic word, and I checked both the arabic IslamQA and my hadeeth software and both of them show khAnzab. However, I heard Shaykh Muhammad Hassaan say it as khInzab. My arabic is not good, so someone can double check that inshaa'Allaah.

Yes Inshaa'Allah I remember that. I'll have to read the book once more to refresh it all though. You said you'll provide evidence. Can you still do so? Both the opinions if possible?

I am in my holiday- in india at the moment... which means I left most of my books back in UK. So, inshaa'Allaah a bit later, I will do a search for the hadeeth- alhamdulillaah I have my notes with me, so the opinions won't be a problem.

NOTE: You want the evidence that Salawaat is not waajib right?

Three Questions here:

First: In the above mentioned list, first tashahud is not in the pillars' list but you provided Ibn Uthaymeen's fatwa after saying:


Second: The two fatwa are in contradiction. First says it's valid. The second says it's invalid *confused*

Sorry for confusing you again. The Ibn `Uthaymeen's fatwa I quoted is about the waajibaat actually and it is also about forgetting the Sajdah al-Sahw and remembering it later .

The Ibn Jibreen fatwa is about missing a pillar and remembering that you missed a pillar later on.

Third: whichever is correct, Does the same apply for missing sajdah sahw incase of missing both i.e faraidh and wajibaat? or Just incase of missing the faraidh and forgetting to perform the sujood?

Wa alaikom wasalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

I explained this above ^^^



Wassalaamu `alaykum

 

[thariq2005]

Assalaamu `alaykum

With regards to the evidence for reciting Salawaat after the final tashahhud, then this is the generally what is quoted as evidence:

عَنْ أَبِي مَسْعُودٍ الأنصاري رضي الله عنه قَالَ: قَالَ بَشِيرُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ: يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ! أَمَرَنَا اللهُ أَنْ نُصَلِّيَ عَلَيْكَ، فَكَيْفَ نُصَلِّي عَلَيْكَ؟ فَسَكَتَ، ثمَّ قَالَ: «قُولُوا: اللّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلّيْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ، وَبَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ إنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ. وَالسَّلاَمُ كَمَا عَلِمْتُمْ». رَوَاهُ مُسْلِمٌ.

Ibn Mas`ood al-Ansaaree (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: Basheer ibn Sa`eed said: “O Messenger of Allaah, Allaah ordered us that we send prayers upon you. So how do we send prayers upon you. He (the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: ) remained silent. After a short while, he :saw2: said: “Say:

اللّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلّيْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ، وَبَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ إنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ

And then make Salaam (tasleem) as I have taught you” [Narrated by Muslim]


With regards to the opinions on this...

Then first is that reciting the Salawaat after the final Tashahhud is waajib. This is the opinion of the Shaafi`iyyah, the known opinion of the Hanaabilah (based on a narration from Imaam Ahmad) and from the contemporary scholars, Shaykh Ibn Baaz held this view.

The reason for them holding this view is because it mentions in the hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: said: قُولُوا which means "Say". The scholars mentioned that this indicates that it is an 'Amr (a command) and from Usool al-Fiqh, we know that a command conveys obligation unless there is another evidence to indicate that it is not obligatory. Based on this, they mentioned it is Waajib to recite the salawaat.

The other opinion is that it is Mustahabb to recite the Salawaat after the final Tashahhud. This is the opinion of Imaam Maalik, Abu Haneefah and one report from Imaam Ahmad. This is also the view of the Jumhoor (majority of the scholars) as mentioned by Imaam al-Nawawi. One of their reasons was because, they mentioned that the Prophet :saw2: did not, himself, go and tell the Sahaabah to recite the Salawaat after Tashahhud, but rather he :saw2: was asked a question and he replied to the question. Because, if it was an obligation, he :saw2: would have mentioned it without even the Sahaabah asking.

That is generally the different opinions. Obviously, scholars from both sides go into more depth with regards to differences of opinion- we as laymen just know what is on the surface.

One very important thing to note though, and this is what the Ustaadh advised our class with... just because something is Mustahabb doesn't mean you should neglect it, rather one should strive to always do it. For example, salawaat after the final tashahhud- even if a person holds the opinion that it is Mustahabb, he should strive to do it all the time as although it is an obligatory act. Preserving recommended acts of this deen helps us preserve the obligatory acts more firmly.

WAllaahu A`lam
Wassalaamu `alaykum

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Let me ask you this brother, the link I sent you seems to be very through. I am halfway done reading it. Would that be a definitive work and followed?

 

[thariq2005]

Assalaam walaikum,

Let me ask you this brother, the link I sent you seems to be very through. I am halfway done reading it. Would that be a definitive work and followed?

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

That book is excellent. One of the simplest and best books in English (with regards to Fiqh) that I have come across. I really recommend reading that book quite a few times to get a good grip of it.

With regards to the chapter of "Prostration of Forgetfullness" from that book- then I would recommend you to read that pdf I attached of Shaykh Ibn al-`Uthaymeen, once you have read that chapter from the book.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Assalaamu `alaykum

Wa alaikomasalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

I thought the chances of missing an ayah in al-Faatihah is very very slim, but nonetheless if you correct yourself there and then- its fine inshaa'Allaah. If you remember in the next raka`ah that you missed an ayah in al-Faatihah in the previous raka`ah... then your previous raka`ah is invalid.

I know, just wanted to confirm that case as well. How do we know it's fine if we correct ourselves there and then? kind of silly to ask but. . .

<<< That is the arabic word, and I checked both the arabic IslamQA and my hadeeth software and both of them show khAnzab. However, I heard Shaykh Muhammad Hassaan say it as khInzab. My arabic is not good, so someone can double check that inshaa'Allaah.

My book is translated by Usama ibn Suhaib Hasan. It's Al-haneef punlication (a division of Jam'ist Ihyaa Minhaaj Al-Sunnah) says at the back of the book. Came from Uk so may be someone can get this checked.

I am in my holiday- in india at the moment... which means I left most of my books back in UK. So, inshaa'Allaah a bit later, I will do a search for the hadeeth- alhamdulillaah I have my notes with me, so the opinions won't be a problem.

No problem Inshaa'Allah.

NOTE: You want the evidence that Salawaat is not waajib right?

I wanted both. Salawat is mustahaab and that it's wajib.

Sorry for confusing you again. The Ibn `Uthaymeen's fatwa I quoted is about the waajibaat actually and it is also about forgetting the Sajdah al-Sahw and remembering it later .

The Ibn Jibreen fatwa is about missing a pillar and remembering that you missed a pillar later on.



I explained this above ^^^

Let me just confirm that I got it right.

a) I miss something from amongst the Wajibaat and than forget the sujdah sahw. Remember it half an hour later. It's fine, nothing to be done.

b) same happens but with a pillar. It's not fine. I have to repeat my prayers.

I got it right?

With regards to the evidence for reciting Salawaat after the final tashahhud, then this is the generally what is quoted as evidence:

عَنْ أَبِي مَسْعُودٍ الأنصاري رضي الله عنه قَالَ: قَالَ بَشِيرُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ: يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ! أَمَرَنَا اللهُ أَنْ نُصَلِّيَ عَلَيْكَ، فَكَيْفَ نُصَلِّي عَلَيْكَ؟ فَسَكَتَ، ثمَّ قَالَ: «قُولُوا: اللّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلّيْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ، وَبَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ إنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ. وَالسَّلاَمُ كَمَا عَلِمْتُمْ». رَوَاهُ مُسْلِمٌ.

Ibn Mas`ood al-Ansaaree (May Allaah be pleased with him) said: Basheer ibn Sa`eed said: “O Messenger of Allaah, Allaah ordered us that we send prayers upon you. So how do we send prayers upon you. He (the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: ) remained silent. After a short while, he :saw2: said: “Say:

اللّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا صَلّيْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ، وَبَارِكْ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ، وَعَلَى آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ، كَمَا بَارَكْتَ عَلَى إبْرَاهِيمَ فِي الْعَالَمِينَ إنَّكَ حَمِيدٌ مَجِيدٌ

And then make Salaam (tasleem) as I have taught you” [Narrated by Muslim]

Jazakallah khair for this Hadeeth, and the two opinions.

However, quoting the book again. Under the heading "The Obligation of Sending Prayers on the Prophet:saw2: in this (Final) Tashahhud." he quotes:
Once he:saw2: heard a man supplicating in his prayer without glorifying the majesty of Allaah Exalted, nor sending prayers on the prophet :saw2:, so he said. "This man had been hasty." He then called him and said to him and others, "when one of your prays, he SHOULD begins with praise of his Lord, sublime and Mighty, and His exultation, and then send prayers (in one narration: he SHOULD send prayers) on the prophet:saw2: and then supplicate as he wishes".

Also, "He heard a man glorifying and praiseing Allaah and sending prayers on the Prophet :saw2: in the prayers, so the Messenger of Allaah:saw2: said to him: Supplicate, and you will be answered; ask, and you will be given.


Do these narration not show "obligation". like the order of "DO IT" those Ashab never ask him :saw2: He told him themselves so. . .? Need help here akh *confused*

One very important thing to note though, and this is what the Ustaadh advised our class with... just because something is Mustahabb doesn't mean you should neglect it, rather one should strive to always do it. For example, salawaat after the final tashahhud- even if a person holds the opinion that it is Mustahabb, he should strive to do it all the time as although it is an obligatory act. Preserving recommended acts of this deen helps us preserve the obligatory acts more firmly.

I understand Akhi. Jazakallah khair for your sincere advice. I just "feel" like it is wajib and want to make sure. So that I won't be at loss for not making two prostrations incase I "very unfortunately" miss it some day. Hopefully not.

BarakAllahu fik.

 

[thariq2005]

خَنْزَبٌ <<< That is the arabic word, and I checked both the arabic IslamQA and my hadeeth software and both of them show khAnzab. However, I heard Shaykh Muhammad Hassaan say it as khInzab. My arabic is not good, so someone can double check that inshaa'Allaah.

Assalaamu `alaykum

Was just reading the commentary on this hadeeth by Imaam al-Nawawi.

The hadeeth is recorded in Muslim and narrated by `Uthmaan ibn abi'l `Aas radiyAllaahu `anhu.

Imaam al-Nawawi mentioned that it is khInzab and it can also be said as khAnzab and he mentioned that al-Qaadi `Iyaad narrated it.

Just thought I'd share it.

Wassalaamu `alaykum

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

Assalaamu `alaykum

Was just reading the commentary on this hadeeth by Imaam al-Nawawi.

The hadeeth is recorded in Muslim and narrated by `Uthmaan ibn abi'l `Aas radiyAllaahu `anhu.

Imaam al-Nawawi mentioned that it is khInzab and it can also be said as khAnzab and he mentioned that al-Qaadi `Iyaad narrated it.

Just thought I'd share it.

Wassalaamu `alaykum

Wasalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

I made a plan once upon a time to get this checked. Jazakallah khair for you post.

Also I am not sure if your holidays are over as I was going to direct you to this thread. You promised you are going to share some reference related to salawat (And something else as well, I'll make a thread on it later sometime Inshaa'Allaah). I'm using this opportunity to remind you. Inshaa'Allaah you can share it when it's convenient for you.

 

[Tabassum07]

:salam2:

Is it okay if I ask a related question here? Someone once told me that if someone is praying and then makes a mistake like missing an obligatory act, they can just say the tasleem right there and then (even if they are standing) and then start over.

I'm confused - I know its always better to do sajdah sahw but what's the ruling of breaking your salaat like that in case of a mistake and starting over? Is it haram to do so?

 

[thariq2005]

Wasalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

I made a plan once upon a time to get this checked. Jazakallah khair for you post.

Also I am not sure if your holidays are over as I was going to direct you to this thread. You promised you are going to share some reference related to salawat (And something else as well, I'll make a thread on it later sometime Inshaa'Allaah). I'm using this opportunity to remind you. Inshaa'Allaah you can share it when it's convenient for you.

BaarakAllaahu feek.

My days of holiday are long over- it's university time now and 'other stuff' time as well. Thus, I have gone less active in the forum.

I still remember the two questions you asked, which I still need to ask our Ustaadh. 1) About the prophets all being men 2) Allaah 'singing' to the people of Paradise.

With regards to 2) I have not come across any narration as of yet. So, if you find anything do let me know.

I had my own personal questions to ask the Ustaadh, thus I couldn't get yours asked yet- Yes, I am a very selfish person. But, will ask very soon inshaa'Allaah.

With regards to Salawaat, I thought I had answered it in post 47? I just saw your question to my post now- so apologies.

The Salawaat I was talking about is the salawaat after the final Tashahhud. Scholars mention that in the Tashahhud, when the person recites: "As-salaamu `alayka ayyuhaa al-Nabiy" (Peace be upon you O' Prophet), then the person has fulfilled the obligation of sending Salawaat.

I regret mentioning all the different opinions after having talked to our Ustaadh. This is the not the way laymen should be studying the deen, at least those who want to be students of knowledge. All this 'strongest opinion' thing, is never consistent (for a layman) and varies from scholar to scholar... thus it is a never ending circle for a layman. This was far from how the scholars of the past used to seek knowledge. Even, our teacher regretted teaching us comparitive fiqh... let alone me posting some of my notes. May Allaah save us from ignorance and bless us all with the light of knowledge.

 

[thariq2005]

:salam2:

Is it okay if I ask a related question here? Someone once told me that if someone is praying and then makes a mistake like missing an obligatory act, they can just say the tasleem right there and then (even if they are standing) and then start over.

I'm confused - I know its always better to do sajdah sahw but what's the ruling of breaking your salaat like that in case of a mistake and starting over? Is it haram to do so?

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

Sister remember one thing... whenever anyone (i.e a layman) tells you anything with regards to this religion, ask them for their proof and who from the scholars held this view. And don't let their words confuse you, unless you are provided with proof. This makes life easy.

If you read the Shaykh ibn `Uthaymeen's book, he does mention that missing out a pillar means one should go back and do that pillar. But if he misses something from the 'waajibaat' of the prayer, then the person just carries on with the Salaah and does Sujood al-Sahw at the end.

 

[Tabassum07]

:salam2:

But is there any sin if a person does break the salaat in between, by doing the tasleem right and left at any point? I've seen one person do this, and wonder if they are doing something that's sinful or haraam? They say they suffer so much waswaas, and sometimes rather than performing sajda sahw at most every salah, they want to start over with a clean slate.

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

BaarakAllaahu feek.

My days of holiday are long over- it's university time now and 'other stuff' time as well. Thus, I have gone less active in the forum.

Mines about to start. May be we can take a break from the Haa'iyah thread till everyone has more time?

I still remember the two questions you asked, which I still need to ask our Ustaadh. 1) About the prophets all being men 2) Allaah 'singing' to the people of Paradise.

I want have answer to these but I wasn't talking about them. You never promised an answer to the 2nd question. . .Well now you did.

I was talking about some other question. I'll ask when I make a thread Inshaa'Allaah.

With regards to 2) I have not come across any narration as of yet. So, if you find anything do let me know.

Alright Inshaa'Allaah.

With regards to Salawaat, I thought I had answered it in post 47? I just saw your question to my post now- so apologies.

No problem.

The Salawaat I was talking about is the salawaat after the final Tashahhud. Scholars mention that in the Tashahhud, when the person recites: "As-salaamu `alayka ayyuhaa al-Nabiy" (Peace be upon you O' Prophet), then the person has fulfilled the obligation of sending Salawaat.

I'll have to discuss this one. I'm getting a bit confused.

I regret mentioning all the different opinions after having talked to our Ustaadh. This is the not the way laymen should be studying the deen, at least those who want to be students of knowledge. All this 'strongest opinion' thing, is never consistent (for a layman) and varies from scholar to scholar... thus it is a never ending circle for a layman. This was far from how the scholars of the past used to seek knowledge. Even, our teacher regretted teaching us comparitive fiqh... let alone me posting some of my notes. May Allaah save us from ignorance and bless us all with the light of knowledge.

Sorry brother but all that went over my head.

Jazakallah khair.

 

[thariq2005]

Mines about to start. May be we can take a break from the Haa'iyah thread till everyone has more time?

If everyone wants that- I don't mind.

Or we can give a week for people to answer questions? And then commentary will be posted.

I'll have to discuss this one. I'm getting a bit confused.

You are free to take Shaykh Al Albaanee's opinion. Not a problem inshaa'Allaah, at the end of the day you are following a valid scholarly opinion.

Sorry brother but all that went over my head.

??

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

If everyone wants that- I don't mind.

Or we can give a week for people to answer questions? And then commentary will be posted.

That's not a bad idea. May be you can consult them all on that thread.

You are free to take Shaykh Al Albaanee's opinion. Not a problem inshaa'Allaah, at the end of the day you are following a valid scholarly opinion.

I didn't even express my confusion. I never said anything about weather or not can I follow Sheikh Albaani?

??

What have I done? I didn't understand all this regret business.

 

[samiha]

:salam2:

Sister remember one thing... whenever anyone (i.e a layman) tells you anything with regards to this religion, ask them for their proof and who from the scholars held this view. And don't let their words confuse you, unless you are provided with proof. This makes life easy.

On the other hand akhi, from what I've read and understood, if a laymen comes to you and tells you something in regards to this religion, rather than their proof or daleel, first and foremost the question should more ideally be from which of the scholars held this view? And then maybe looking into why that was yourself...

Because a layman is not required to know all the daleel, and in fact, many times may not know it, or understand it, or be able to properly explain it, when in fact it may be a valid opinion. A layman should follow the scholars who are upon the Qur'aan and Sunnah and would be able to derive rulings correctly from the evidences, and that is more their 'proof' than being able to explain the evidences.

I've heard some students of knowledge also mention that even a mufti who has authentically studied Islaam is not -required- to provide a laymen with the proofs for his opinion, and that in the history of Islaam if you look to the teachings and fatawaa of the Sahaabah even, very rarely did they actually quote the evidence from which they gave their opinions. Sometimes the understanding of hadeeth was mixed in with their words, but in general, perhaps out of fear of making a mistake or otherwise in narration, the proofs were not directly given.

So asking for proofs from a scholar to make your heart content with the ruling, or for personal self interest is one thing - but it should not be made into an obligation on the layman to either ask for, know, or fully understand the proofs (as many times they may not be able to), to be able to explain to another...

Annnyyyways, before I get up over my head in this, that's all I really wanted to say.

Allaah knows best.