The Imminent Collapse!

[farhopes]

It is not difficult for a contemplator to recognize the imminent collapse of a civilization. There are factors accelerating that collapse. The prominent factor of them all, from my own point of view, is ethical decadence that is always the direct result of defying Allah's laws on Earth.

It is widely happening now in the West and its extention so called Israel. people defy and violate in vaunting all human morals under the false call of liberty of thinking, or accepting the other, no matter what this other does and how corruptive he is!!

Hence it becomes easy to predict the imminent collapse of this civilaization as economic and military power can never maintain the existence of an ethically deteriorating nation.

Those thoughts have come to my mind after reading this article that aroused my disgust!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...utal-dogma-sickening-assault-family-life.html

 

[Summer03]

The philosopher Hegel put it beautifully. He said, "We learn from history that we do not learn from history!"

took me about 5 seconds more to understand what it was the quote was trying to convey LOL brings to mind this other quote,...
"history repeats itself because no one listens"

 

[halah]

It is not difficult for a contemplator to recognize the imminent collapse of a civilization. There are factors accelerating that collapse. The prominent factor of them all, from my own point of view, is ethical decadence that is always the direct result of defying Allah's laws on Earth.

It is widely happening now in the West and its extention so called Israel. people defy and violate in vaunting all human morals under the false call of liberty of thinking, or accepting the other, no matter what this other does and how corruptive he is!!

Hence it becomes easy to predict the imminent collapse of this civilaization as economic and military power can never maintain the existence of an ethically deteriorating nation.

Those thoughts have come to my mind after reading this article that aroused my disgust!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...utal-dogma-sickening-assault-family-life.html

:salam2:

But what's greiven the heart most that some muslims in muslim countries adopt the same perspective,the other day on an arabic tv there was a debate on the rights of those rebellious(sorry for using this word).

The Prophet Salla Allah alyhi Wasallam said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

 

[TheHumbleWun]

It is not difficult for a contemplator to recognize the imminent collapse of a civilization. There are factors accelerating that collapse. The prominent factor of them all, from my own point of view, is ethical decadence that is always the direct result of defying Allah's laws on Earth.

It is widely happening now in the West and its extention so called Israel. people defy and violate in vaunting all human morals under the false call of liberty of thinking, or accepting the other, no matter what this other does and how corruptive he is!!

Hence it becomes easy to predict the imminent collapse of this civilaization as economic and military power can never maintain the existence of an ethically deteriorating nation.

Those thoughts have come to my mind after reading this article that aroused my disgust!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...utal-dogma-sickening-assault-family-life.html

Salaam,

We should not call the West & Israel a "civilization." Are they really a civilized nation?

1) They legally allow torture
2) They can prison you without any charges
3) They allow homosexuality & even adoption for them in many states!
4) The private cartel known as the Federal Reserve robs the people by taxing them on interest for the loans the government borrows from them.
5) They oppress the women by making her a sex object

There are abundant evidence of UN & CIA rape cases, shooting the Quran in Iraq, killing innocent women & children in Afghanistan, Gaza, Iraq, Darfur and justifying it under the pretext of "terrorist" "militant." The list can go on and on.

It's all darkness upon darkness. Jahaliya is more than just a word. Islam brings justice & light upon people; it is the only true civilization.

Note: I know there are some good people in these countries but I am speaking of the majority, it's government and unjust, non-Islamic system.

 

[farhopes]

Assalamo alikom

:salam2:

But what's greiven the heart most that some muslims in muslim countries adopt the same perspective,the other day on an arabic tv there was a debate on the rights of those rebellious(sorry for using this word).

The Prophet Salla Allah alyhi Wasallam said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

That is exactly why we lost our golden era of Islam. We sought glory in other than our perfect religion. That is why we were humiliated. It is just the ordinance of Allah. And it is very weird that after all that long time of human life on earth, most people are still blind to see the ordinance of Allah!!!

 

[Bluegazer]

** I apologize, but I accidentally hit the return button before completing my response, therefore I edited this post. My response is in post #9 below**

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello septithol,


I have the following comments on your post #7:


1- You wrote:

With a very few exceptions, such as rape, or the abuse of children, sex is morally neutral, and what sort of sex other people choose to do with eachother, or watch on television is not any of anyone else's business, any more than the food they choose to eat for supper, or what sort of cooking show they might watch, are any of anyone else's business.

I don't know what religion you profess [or if you do profess any religion], but I'd like to present to you a viewpoint from a Muslim.


In Islam, homosexuality is an abomination. It goes against morality, and as a Muslim I believe it is so because I trust in the words of Almighty God who I believe is the ultimate authority on what is moral and what is immoral.


We Muslims believe that Allah has said:

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

[Translation of the meaning of the Qur'an 7:80-81]


And we Muslims believe Allah has said:

And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing? Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."

[Translation of the meaning of the Qur'an 7:54-55]


And we Muslims believe Allah has said:

The people of Lot denied the messengers. When their brother Lot said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me. And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord of the worlds. Do you approach males among the worlds and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."

[Translation of the meaning of the Qur'an 26: 160-166]


If Allah the Almighty -whom we Muslims worship- has decreed that homosexuality is a grave sin and an immoral act, then that settles it for me. And no matter how many 'civilized' nations tell me that this stance is homophobic and equal -as they assert- to racism, it's not going to make me change my belief.


2- What's moral and what's immoral shouldn't be left to be decided by votes. It may come to pass -and certainly in our times has come to pass- that a majority of people in a country might vote for a piece of legislation that is immoral. If that happened, then the act still remains immoral.


And ultimately, there's no end to what would then become 'moral'. If homosexuality is now 'moral', what about sexual relations between an adult brother and his adult sister? What about sexual relations between and adult father and his adult daughter? And the list goes on for cases we now call incest but may later become 'moral'?!


3- You wrote:

Well, this silliness can only serve the purposes of those who, for some reason, wish others to fall down in the sewer, and attributing the collapse of society to sex or other imaginary 'moral decadence' serves the purposes of those in the government who wish to continue doing those things that cause the real collapse, such as fighting foolish wars or creating fiat currency. If you pay very close attention, you can even see this process going on.

I respond by saying that there's no reason why pointing out immoral acts as homosexuality should make us oblivious to the wrong acts of the government you mentioned. Why are you asserting that if one says or believes that homosexuality is wrong then that means that he or she will automatically forget about other evils in society, such as fighting unjust wars? It's not a case of either saying homosexuality is immoral or an unjust wars/financial chaos is immoral. It should be the case to point out that homosexuality is immoral and an unjust wars/financial chaos is immoral.


Regards,

Bluegazer

 

[Bluegazer]

**sorry, same mistake in posting too soon. Please await my next post**

 

[Zaynab123]

I respond by saying that there's no reason why pointing out immoral acts as homosexuality should make us oblivious to the wrong acts of the government you mentioned. Why are you asserting that if one says or believes that homosexuality is wrong then that means that he or she will automatically forget about other evils in society, such as fighting unjust wars? It's not a case of either saying homosexuality is immoral or an unjust wars/financial chaos is immoral. It should be the case to point out that homosexuality is immoral and an unjust wars/financial chaos is immoral.


Regards,

Bluegazer

Asalamu alaykum

Truly brother, you are very decent human bieng. You respond to people in a way that is decent and Islamically. may Allah swt increase your knowledge amiin.

wasalam

 

[farhopes]

hello Ann,

The problem is, I have an empirical mind. For me to label something as 'immoral', I require evidence. And this needs to be evidence which can be shown to me, not merely something that somebody says, or that is written in a book, even an important book (since it is possible to say or write any sort of nonsense).

In the case of financial chaos, there is a great deal of evidence that deliberately causing financial chaos for your own selfish gain is immoral. This evidence consists of people suffering from hunger and other things during financial chaos. And this always happens, 100% of the time, whenever there is financial chaos.

However, this is not the case with homosexuality. Other than certain people and books saying so, there is no evidence that one person being homosexual is immoral, or even any of anyone else's business. I happen to work in a warehouse, where there were recently two employees who were homosexual. They did a very good job, delivered their products, and did not bother anyone. So to my mind, the fact that they were homosexual was not immoral. In fact, it wasn't any of my or anyone else's business. I am far more bothered by certain other employees who habitually come in late, or not at all, or steal things (thus causing me to have to do extra work), than I am with the sexual orientation of any of them. I have far too much work to do, and far many more worse problems, than to be able to afford to waste time or effort claiming things are immoral that have no effect on me (or anyone else) at all.

Well it is good that you have an empirical mind. Having an empirical mind can guide the person to choose the right path in life if he can efficiently use this feature.

If we use our minds to look deeply at life, we will easily come to a conclusion. This conclusion is that life was originated for a major purpose and to achieve that goal there are some laws of life that were imposed by the Creator to gurantee achieving the main goal of this life.

One of those laws that can never be questioned is that life was meant to continue untill an appointed term. To achieve this law which is the continual process of life, proliferation should continue as it is the only way to produce more and more people to have life continue.

Proliferation can only happen through relation between man and woman, not man and man!!!

If homosexuality is regarded as moral and is allowed to prevail, this will be defying the natural laws of life which is considered a big transgression!!!

However, we, as Muslims, do not have at all to think of it like that. We chose to believe in Allah and worship Him alone. The term of worship can never refer only to rituals. It rather refers to a complete method of life.

We believe that the Creator Who created the whole universe would never leave His creation without " a book of instruction" that guarantees them to lead perfect life on Earth. This is the real meaning of Islam, which is to " Listen and Obey. We simply listen and obey having infinte faith in the Creator's Great wisdom and infinite knowledge.


By the way, in Islam the term "ethical decadence" always refers to ALL forms of defying Allah's laws : transgression in all aspects of life, not only sexual ones.

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello septithol,


Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.


1- You wrote:

The problem is, I have an empirical mind. For me to label something as 'immoral', I require evidence. And this needs to be evidence which can be shown to me, not merely something that somebody says, or that is written in a book, even an important book (since it is possible to say or write any sort of nonsense).

1- For me -as a Muslim- it is enough that my Creator labels something as immoral for me to believe it is immoral. I believe that He is the best judge for what is good or bad for His creation, as He is the All-Knowing and His wisdom surpasses that of all of His creation. God Almighty is not 'somebody' and He certainly does not reveal 'nonsense'.


However, if you do not believe that God Almighty exists or you do believe in His existence but do not believe He revealed His commands to us through prophets and messengers, then I understand why the paragraph above will not convince you. And that's why I believe this discussion -even though it's dealing with an important issue- will not go anywhere as long as the far more important issue [believing in God and in His message to humanity] is not dealt with first.


2- You wrote:

However, this is not the case with homosexuality. Other than certain people and books saying so, there is no evidence that one person being homosexual is immoral, or even any of anyone else's business. I happen to work in a warehouse, where there were recently two employees who were homosexual. They did a very good job, delivered their products, and did not bother anyone. So to my mind, the fact that they were homosexual was not immoral. In fact, it wasn't any of my or anyone else's business. I am far more bothered by certain other employees who habitually come in late, or not at all, or steal things (thus causing me to have to do extra work), than I am with the sexual orientation of any of them. I have far too much work to do, and far many more worse problems, than to be able to afford to waste time or effort claiming things are immoral that have no effect on me (or anyone else) at all.

You seem to think that if I label an action of a person as immoral, then there's no good that could come out of him or her. I never said that.


In fact, there are people who are much more immoral than homosexuals, and still a lot of good has come out of them concerning actions in this world. For example, you have Thomas Edison, the famous inventor of the light bulb and many other useful inventions. He was an atheist. To me, atheism is the ultimate form of immorality, and yet I do not say that no good in this world could come out of an atheist person.


We are- however- discussing a specific point here. We're not discussing whether immoral persons have the ability to perform good acts. We're discussing whether a certain act [such as homosexuality] is immoral.


3- The human mind is not the ultimate judge of what is good or what is bad. It is limited and could come under many influences other than the pure evidence that's presented to it. In fact, you could fill a room with people with empirical minds and present them with evidence and there's a very real chance that they will not agree on the same conclusion.


4- You wrote:

However, this is not the case with homosexuality. Other than certain people and books saying so, there is no evidence that one person being homosexual is immoral, or even any of anyone else's business.

Well then, what you have just stated about homosexuality equally applies to cases of incest.


Is there any evidence that it is immoral for an adult brother and his adult sister to engage in sex together? Is there any evidence that it is immoral for an adult daughter and her father to engage in sex together?


And if there's no evidence of that, do you conclude that the actions of incest I mentioned above are moral and that it's silly for other people to regard them as immoral?


Regards,

Bluegazer

 

[TheHumbleWun]

the real reason for the collapse of societies is not immoral *sexual* behavior, but rather, immoral *financial* behavior.

For instance, all countries in the world now use FIAT, or paper currency, rather than gold or silver as money. This is a practice which has been well documented throughout thousands of years of history, to eventually destroy the economy of the countries that practice it. Yet governments keep practicing it. Why? Because in the short term, before the economic collapse, the use of paper currency rather than gold or silver, allows the government to steal from the people.

Hello Septithol,

What criteria are you using to determine if something is moral or immoral?

In the Quran, God Almighty destroyed the people of Lut (peace be upon him), for practicising homosexuality. Read about it. If you do believe in the Quran then that should be your criteria & evidence, you can not convince Muslims & even some Jews & Christians that homosexuality is moral.

Do you know who is in control of the fiat currency in the U.S.? Do you know their goal? Did you know that they are the same people who control the media and even "elect" the president? Did you know that these people who control the money power want a secular society! Don't become their victim. Research the Federal Reserve, New World Order, Free Masons and the Illuminati.

Empires rise and fall for different reasons! Read their history, including those in the Quran. I agree that fiat currency (based on interest) will collapse an empire & society, because it is stated & evidenced in the Quran!

Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.

(Quran, 2:275)

Allâh will destroy Ribâ (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqât (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And Allâh likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

(Quran, 2:276)

 

[TheHumbleWun]

To me, the point of living is to try and develope your mind to be the best and smartest person you can be.

Hello again Septithol,

The purpose of life is sumed in two words: Obey God. One of the duties of a Muslim is to seek knowledge & education. I believe you have the right mental attitude and I believe this will be a stepping stone for you to learn about Islam and Muslims. Inshallah (God willing) you will find the Truth.

I ask you to watch the videos and browse over the plus 30K threads & plus 250K posts to learn more. Just make sure you get enough....

However, if human beings do not know the reason something is evil, or are not smart enough to the reason, then I do not think they are being evil.

As Muslims we are called upon to spread the Truth. If people do not accept the message after hearing it in a clear & undistorted way, then they will bear the consequences in the after-life. After all, every single human being will be standing alone (no mom, dad, brothers, sisters, friends, etc) with God Almighty and no doubt will be questioned on the Day of Judgement. What are you going to say? I didn't know? I believe free will is one of the greatest manifestation of God's creativity. So you make the choice.

Once you learn the Truth, it is incumbent of you to spread the Truth so evil abolishes or at least desintegrates. Those who don't receive or hear the Truth, then God Almighty will have a test for them on the Day of Judgement. And God Almighty is Most Merciful, Most Just, Most Compassionate, Most Beneficial.

Now, as to your question of incest, there is a good reason as to why people should not have incest, and that is because children born from incest are much more likely to have certain types of genetic problems. You can even show, or understand, if you study genetics, why this is the case. So that is evidence I can see, that shows that incest is not something people should do.

Like homosexuality, incest is also prophibited because God revealed this to us more than 1400 years ago in the Quran! Homosexuality also has problems....it leads to AIDS!

Physicans, doctors, & scientists are fully aware of the cause of this disease and how it spreads, yet they do not come out honestly to say: "do not have illegitmate sex and stop homosexuality." Instead they are preaching "Safe Sex."

As such they feel that it is necessary for Grade six students, aged 9-10, to be shown cartoon movies to give them an understanding of the human body, about how to have sexual intercourse, about the sexual organs and the use of condom - as if our generation and the generations before us were ignorant aof the sexual organs and how to have sex. There is no doubt that it is the innate knowledge of all living creatures, humankind, animals and even ants and flies., it does not require sex education in Grade 6.

Western society has declined to a point where homosexuality, lesbianism, premarital & post marital sex are now considered natural. In fact some states & countries now consider same sex marriage as legal. I remember gambling in Canada was illegal, until the Government had approved it in some provinces & where it is not yet legal they are allowed to run gambling casinos under the guise of "Charity Casino." It would not be long when we will see the legalisation of prositution under the guise of "Charity Prostitution"!

May God guide us on the right path and not of those who went astray. Ameen.

The Creator does not leave His creation unanswered.

 

[*Sana*]

Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatu,

I totally agree with Brothers Bluegazer and TheHumbleWun. I mean how much more evidence do you need to believe that homosexuality is immoral?!

America happens to have one of the highest prevalence and incidence rates of HIV/AIDS in the world. Why else would they be getting aids at such high rates? Probably because they also have one of the highest rates of homosexual and bisexual people. Coincidence? I don't think so!

You asked for evidence and there it is. But is that going to change your empirical way of thinking about homosexuality?

By the way, Brothers I love both your posts. They are always full of so much wisdom Masha Allah!

Wasalaam