Thoughts for Sister Kayleigh

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kayleigh

Junior Member
I don't really see the vast majority feminists as trying to be like men, as if men are superior and something to strive for. Instead, I see it as women trying to overcome patriarchy and injustice which has kept them from doing these normal things that they've been stopped from doing for so long (talking about working, etc., not leading prayer). I also hate how the author of that article tries to define and focus in on femininity and masculinity. It's entirely subjective.

By the way... women have been pulling "double duty" since the beginning of human history, literally. Women working outside the home while maintaining the home and children is nothing new.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

In an earlier response Kayleigh wrote to the effect of the ideal and the real. In the ideal world everyone would have 2.5 children, live in a house in the suburbs, drive 2 cars, work a 9 to 5, and have perfect teeth.
In the real world people live to survive. And they have the promise of faith to keep them going on.
Women work alongside men. Women work as hard as men. Women work in all fields...not to compete with men. Women work because labor is good for the soul.
 

Valerie

Junior Member
I don't really see the vast majority feminists as trying to be like men, as if men are superior and something to strive for. Instead, I see it as women trying to overcome patriarchy and injustice which has kept them from doing these normal things that they've been stopped from doing for so long (talking about working, etc., not leading prayer). I also hate how the author of that article tries to define and focus in on femininity and masculinity. It's entirely subjective.

By the way... women have been pulling "double duty" since the beginning of human history, literally. Women working outside the home while maintaining the home and children is nothing new.

Yes. Yes yes yes. I didn't read the article but I agree with this :)
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Assalaam walaikum,

Well..international businesswoman..leather and tanning...go find out and let me know..I'm tired...been painting all day...

question time.
would she have worked if the prophet forbade her not to work?

In fact she delivered food to him in cave of hira. She obeyed her husband and took care of him like all other muslim women. Khadija (ra) was a successful business woman but she was as far from a rebellious wife as you will ever find. working was never a problem as long as it was halal. disobeying the husband is/was a problem. Because for a wife obeying the husband is obligatory and working is not. that's what is proven by texts.

and ive said before (twice i think) exceptional cases do have exceptional rulings/fatwas. However, exceptional cases cannot over ride general rulings. Man incapable of earning enough money IS an exceptional case.

as far as my anecdotal evidence goes. here is adnan's fbk profile. he is old guy and lost his right limb when he was 10 or 11 (my ma told me that).
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000909616015
and his son's
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1082554658

the other person doesnt have a Facebook profile so i cant prove that he exists so i guess ill take that back.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

I finally understand where you are coming from. A woman will gladly obey her husband because the other side of the equation is that he equally obey her. It is mutual trust and respect.
Men, by nature, wish to be the providers. And that is a good thing.
However, because of the nature of the duyna many have to have double incomes to survive thus women work.

In no ways is anyone here responding advocating that women disrespect their husbands. We are saying Islam encourages us to educate ourselves. Like for like. A husband wants a woman who is his equal as a wife.

When women have to work we do minimize our interactions. Many are forced out of necessity to compete with male salaries. Or else we have sisters who need to seek public assistance.

Thus, we are not being unIslamic, Allah forgive us, we are being practical. These are socio-economic issues. They are real and relevant. And I must thank the moderators and responders for having a serious discussion on the plight of women and some of the solutions we have in the world today.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
some interesting quotes from leading feminists

"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." -- Linda Gordon

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

"I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the *!*!*!*!work that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan

"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage." -- Robin Morgan

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
-- Robin Morgan

From her "The Demon Lover" (NY: Norton & Co., 1989 Morgan doesn't hide her bigotry):

* p. 138-9: The phallic malady is epidemic and systemic... each individual male in the patriarchy is aware of his relative power in the scheme of things.... He knows that his actions are supported by the twin pillars of the State of man - the brotherhood ritual of political exigency and the brotherhood ritual of a sexual thrill in dominance. As a devotee of Thanatos, he is one with the practitioner of sado-masochistic "play" between "consenting adults," as he is one with the rapist.
* p. 224: My white skin disgusts me. My passport disgusts me. They are the marks of an insufferable privilege bought at the price of others' agony.
* p. 229: Sex to this point in my life has been trivial, at best a gesture of tenderness, at worst a chore. I couldn't understand the furor about it.
* p. 316: Did she die of the disease called "family" or the disease called "rehabilitation", of poverty or drugs or *!*!*!*!ography, of economics or sexual slavery or a broken body?

"And let's put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are oppressed, too, by sexism--the lie that there can be such a thing as 'men's liberation groups.' Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group, specifically because of a 'threatening' characteristic shared by the latter group--skin, color, sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed ****ED UP by being masters, but those masters are not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism--the oppressed have no alternative--for they have no power but to fight. In the long run, Women's Liberation will of course free men--but in the short run it's going to cost men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women--kill your fathers, not your mothers".
-- Robin Morgan

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
-- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
-- Valerie Solana, SCUM founder (Society for Cutting Up Men.)

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
-- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"In my own life, I don't have intercourse. That is my choice." -- Andrea Dworkin

Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." -- Andrea Dworkin

"To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Q: People think you are very hostile to men.
A: I am." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Men use the night to erase us." -- Andrea Dworkin

"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives."
-- Andrea Dworkin

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
-- Andrea Dworkin, *!*!*!*!ography: Men Possessing Women

"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom."
-- Andrea Dworkin, *!*!*!*!ography: Men Possessing Women.

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson

"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." -- Ti-Grace Atkinson

"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear" -- Susan Brownmiller; Authoress of Against Our Will p.6

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." -- Catherine MacKinnon

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." -- Catherine MacKinnon

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
-- Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
-- Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies.

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." -- Sharon Stone; Actress

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."
-- Jodie Foster; Actress - as quoted in The New York Times Magazine.

"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -- Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female.

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
-- Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime.

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

"If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them." - David Angier

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
-- Marilyn French (her emphasis)

My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."
-- Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.

"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey."
-- Marilyn French

"All men are rapists and that's all they are"
-- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign."
-- Marilyn French

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
-- Barbara Jordan; Former Congresswoman.

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
-- Germaine Greer.

"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence."
-- Judith Levine; Authoress

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to ****/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'
-- Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)

"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with--husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
-- Judith Levine, Authoress of My Enemy, My love

"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male) world. Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the dirty-laundrylist of 'sex acts'...includes rape, foot binding, fellatio, intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production of *!*!*!*!ography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
-- Judith Levine; summarizing comment on the WAS document, (A southern Women's Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.)

"All men are good for is ****ing, and running over with a truck".
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. Richard had protested the quote; was dismissed thereafter on the grounds of harassment; and responded by bringing suit against the University. 1995 settlement.

((Delaney Nickerson, of the American Coalition for ABUSE AWARENESS, refers to the False Memory Syndrome Foundation as "The ****ing Molesters Society". (Miami Herald, April 3, 1995) The ACAA is a lobbying group, which includes Ellen Bass (co-author of THE COURAGE TO HEAL), and Rene Frederickson, leading feminist psychotherapist and strong proponent of repressed memory theory.))

((At the STONE ANGELS satanic ritual abuse conference in Thunder Bay in February, 1995, the following was contained in the handouts at a conference supported financially by the Ontario Government: FMS stands for: FULL OF MOSTLY *!*!*!*!; FOR MORE SADISM; FELONS, MURDERERS, SCUMBALLS; FREQUENT MOLESTERS SOCIETY.))

"Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do."
-- Popular Feminist Graffiti

"I was, in reality, bred by my parents as my father's concubine... What we take for granted as the stability of family life may well depend on the sexual slavery of our children. What's more, this is a cynical arrangement our institutions have colluded to conceal.".
-- Sylvia Fraser; Journalist

"We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable."
-- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women.

Catharine MacKinnon ( ) maintains that "the private is a sphere of battery, marital rape and women's exploited labor." In this way, privacy and family are reduced to nothing more than aspects of the master plan, which is male domination. Democratic freedoms and the need to keep the state's nose out of our personal affairs are rendered meaningless. The real reason our society cherishes privacy is because men have invented it as an excuse to conceal their criminality. If people still insist that the traditional family is about love and mutual aid--ideals which, admittedly, are sometimes betrayed--they're "hiding from the truth." The family isn't a place where battery and marital rape sometimes happen but where little else apparently does. Sick men don't simply molest their daughters, they operate in league with their wives to "breed" them for that purpose.
-- Donna Laframboise; The Princess at the Window; (in a critical explication of the Catharine MacKinnon, Gloria Steinhem et al tenets of misandric belief.)

"If the classroom situation is very heteropatriarchal--a large beginning class of 50 to 60 students, say, with few feminist students--I am likely to define my task as largely one of recruitment...of persuading students that women are oppressed"
-- Professor Joyce Trebilcot of Washington University, as quoted in Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women.

"Men, as a group, tend to be abusive, either verbally, sexually or emotionally. There are always the exceptions, but they are few and far between (I am married to one of them). There are different levels of violence and abuse and individual men buy into this system by varying degrees. But the male power structure always remains intact."
Message on FEMISA, responding to a request for arguments that men are unnecessary for a child to grow into mature adulthood.

Another posting on FEMISA: "Considering the nature and pervasiveness of men's violence, I would say that without question, children are better off being raised without the presence of men. Assaults on women and children are mostly perpetrated by men whom they are supposed to love and trust: fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers, step-fathers."
Both quotes taken from Daphne Patai's excellent critical work, Heterophobia

"At Brandies I discovered Feminism. And I instantly became a convert... writing brilliant papers in my Myths of Patriarchy class, in which I likened my fate as a woman to other victims throughout the ages."
-- Heather Hart 7

About marriage

"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist" (National NOW Times, January, 1988).

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage" (feminist leader Sheila Cronan).

In response to a question concerning China's policy of compulsory abortion after the first child, Molly Yard responded, "I consider the Chinese government's policy among the most intelligent in the world" (Gary Bauer, "Abetting Coercion in China," The Washington Times, Oct. 10, 1989).

"Overthrowing capitalism is too small for us. We must overthrow the whole...patriarch!" (Gloria Steinem, radical feminist leader, editor of MS magazine).

"Marriage has existed for the benefit of men; and has been a legally sanctioned method of control over women.... We must work to destroy it. The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men.... All of history must be re-written in terms of oppression of women. We must go back to ancient female religions like witchcraft" (from "The Declaration of Feminism," November, 1971).

"By the year 2000 we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God." (Gloria Steinem, editor of MS magazine).

"Let's forget about the mythical Jesus and look for encouragement, solace, and inspiration from real women.... Two thousand years of patriarchal rule under the shadow of the cross ought to be enough to turn women toward the feminist 'salvation' of this world." (Annie Laurie Gaylor, "Feminist Salvation," The Humanist, p. 37, July/August 1988.

"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them" (Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College, and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman).

"Being a housewife is an illegitimate profession... The choice to serve and be protected and plan towards being a family- maker is a choice that shouldn't be. The heart of radical feminism is to change that." (Vivian Gornick, feminist author, University of Illinois, The Daily Illini, April 25, 1981.

"The most merciful thing a large family can to do one of its infant members is to kill it." (Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, in "Women and the New Race," p. 67).

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:

MALE:...represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants...the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.

MAN:...an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched...a contradictory baby-man...

TESTOSTERONE POISONING: ... 'Until now it has been though that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behavior is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning."

Letter to editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate". "......Clearly you are not yet a free-thinking feminist but rather one of those women who bounce off the male-dominated, male-controlled social structures. Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is: if you don't like it, bad luck--and if you get in my way I'll run you down."
Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia. 9 Feb., 1996.


There is far more poisonous feminist literature out there. It's clear from just skimming the quotes that feminism and Islam are incompatible. In fact, i cant see how anyone (man or woman) agreeing or liking feminist ideas can be a Muslim.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
What you've done is cherry picked some stuff from some radical Western feminists (hint: there's more than one kind of feminism). The most basic dictionary definition of feminism is belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. I would also add spiritual equality as well, which is the most important. But there are tons and tons of different brands of feminism, including some Islamic feminists who are fighting for their Islamic rights as women. Muhammad himself was a feminist and Islam is an extremely feminist religion because it gave revolutionary rights and status to women when they had nothing. People get mad when I say that because they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "feminist" because they mistakenly think feminism is is one single ideology that a bunch of angry lesbians share and, sorry, but that isn't true. (I might be angry sometimes, but I'm not a lesbian!)

But besides that... what did you accomplish by copying and pasting all those? Did you even read them all? This thread isn't about feminism, really.

"In fact, i cant see how anyone (man or woman) agreeing or liking feminist ideas can be a Muslim."

Really? Because the way I see it, you can't be a good Muslim WITHOUT being a feminist. You just need to know what that word means first.

But like I said, this thread isn't about. It's about lots of things, but mainly survival, reality, and practicality. You seem to be having a problem getting your head around that.

(and btw, after reading some of them, I don't think the language in it is appropriate for TTI. Did YOU even read them all?)
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,


Son...we are not discussing radical feminism. Did you read my response and Kayleigh's response.

We are Muslim women. chill out. Digest what we wrote. We are not man-haters. We are not disobedient women. We are Allah fearing pious and chaste women.
 

Gernada1492

A Muslim
and injustice which has kept them from doing these normal things that they've been stopped from doing for so long (talking about working, etc., not leading prayer).

Now, what kind of injustice is that when women doesnt have the capability to lead ? What if she cant manage her juniors without screaming and all that? Please dont talk about women as leaders. PLEASE.. I am so sick of it.

And who has created this sense of injustice in them? why it wasnt before iin them? did u ever notice? it has bee exaggerated by media. Women are far better when they are home , managing the soft stuff. Managing home is more or eequally hard as being a CEO of a firm.

I wish western ladies cud understand this. those who do are happy and busy in loving their husbands and kids and growing their kids well. those who arent (with exception of single women, as their case is entirely different) are busy doing makeups in train, early morning) and wearing strange dresses
 

Valerie

Junior Member
Now, what kind of injustice is that when women doesnt have the capability to lead ? What if she cant manage her juniors without screaming and all that? Please dont talk about women as leaders. PLEASE.. I am so sick of it.

And who has created this sense of injustice in them? why it wasnt before iin them? did u ever notice? it has bee exaggerated by media. Women are far better when they are home , managing the soft stuff. Managing home is more or eequally hard as being a CEO of a firm.

I wish western ladies cud understand this. those who do are happy and busy in loving their husbands and kids and growing their kids well. those who arent (with exception of single women, as their case is entirely different) are busy doing makeups in train, early morning) and wearing strange dresses

Not every person has the same personality. Not all men are leaders and not all women are followers. Just because a person was born with certain body parts doesn't make them able to be one or the other.

People, regardless of what body parts they were born with, should be allowed to live their lives. If one person chooses to stay home and have kids, then if someone else wants to achieve something else in their life (like CEO or whatever) that should be their choice. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Some mothers don't have the choice of what they want to do, they have to work in order to survive, even with the father working.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,


That is not the purpose of this thread. We are talking apples and oranges.
I am astounded that we have sisters who think women are given positions of authority and resort to screaming to gain respect.

We love our children and husbands. We do not limit ourselves. I have written the same thoughts in so many different ways...we have to work in the West. Life is difficult. We have to pay bills. We are forever paying bills.

I have supervised men. I never screamed at my co-workers. It's a job. These are the expectations. Let's get the work done and do it right the first time..we can go home.

I am confused about "soft stuff". The assumptions are unfair.

Please do not criticize the western woman. So what if they adorn themselves. That is what they want to do. It is not us.They are hard workers.

Consider yourself blessed.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
What you quoted wasn't me speaking about women as leaders, but if you want to go there, okay...

From what I've learned, there's two main theories about that hadith you're probably referencing that says women shouldn't should be rulers. One is that women should not hold any leadership position, period. The other is that women can hold other leadership positions within society but they can't be the ruler of a nation. This is even what a shaykh told me when I asked him. Both are valid opinions.

Your assertion that women don't have the capability to lead is an opinion, not a fact. Consider Aisha was a leader in many ways, as were other women who followed the Prophet, I find that offensive.

Finally, if a specific woman can't manage people well then she shouldn't. The same applies to a man. Not everyone has the personality and the capability to be an effective leader. If someone isn't suited for it, they shouldn't do it. That has nothing to do with male or female - that applies across the board.

Just because you may have had a female boss in the past that you didn't get along with, it doesn't prove a thing.

Like Valerie said - if you don't like it, don't do it. Otherwise, why does it bother you? If it isn't you or your wife, why do you care?
 

Gernada1492

A Muslim
its not about me going agaisnt women but since its practically proven that they cant lead, they mUST not try to lead. they are creative than men, they can do much better thing which men cant do.. Why bother poking nose into those matters which can be handled by men far better than women ?

Most of ladies are not good leaders , mahy be 1% and most of men are better leaders. This propportion is very different in both genders. In males, its high.

And why dont men poke their noses into women matters? why dont they like to be house-husbands? etc etc?
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

I'm through. I have hit a wall...my head hurts and the wall is still there.

Grenada, you are generalizing. We have intellect. We use discretion. We are good engineers, doctors, lawyers, plumbers, painters, teachers, aerospace engineers. We are bankers. We are professors. We are good mothers and wives.

If you read my responses..there are men who are happy to be house-husbands. The bottom line is we are not judging a person for their vocation.

I'm going ask Scottie to beam me up.
 

Valerie

Junior Member
Assalaam walaikum,

I'm through. I have hit a wall...my head hurts and the wall is still there.

I'm going ask Scottie to beam me up.

:wasalam:

I'm right there with you :) I started to post but then just went to the forum index. Ask Scottie if there's room, please :)
 

Gernada1492

A Muslim
@kayleigh;

its not just me but others as well. having female bosses screaming over them. Thats the only way women know to get wowrk done?
I wasnot referring to any hadith but the practical experience.

@mom.. like always, a nice reply.. i agree with u here .. But may be it has to do something with age and other factors might be.. wat u say ? im talking screamign and women being leaders

I guess timings on posting threads does matter as well :) off to maghrib
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
1. The experience of you and your friends doesn't prove anything. I had a male boss who was lazy and never did anything or showed up to work and was rude to the employees. Do I think all men are rude and lazy? No.

2. I have never screamed at or insulted someone who I am leading or managing at work. Last time I checked, I'm a woman.

3. You keep saying you have proof. Where's your proof? Your limited experience isn't proof of anything. Recent, reliable statistics actually prove you wrong.

This is irrational and not the point of what we're talking about, really. This is my last reply on the matter.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Age is a wonderful thing. I command respect when I walk into a room. When I give a lecture or presentation I make people listen. I have it difficult because most of the men I work alongside are older and "real men". I have to be very accurate and knowledgeable. It has to be 100% brains and I have to be on top of everything. When they ask questions..sometimes I need a helmet to protect myself. They test me...that is just men.

I am not there to play with men or seduce men. I am there to do the job I was hired for and to perform it to the best of my ability. It is business.

When we work we are all business. And I like to excel in my field.

Scottie always has room for everyone.
 

Abdul25

Logical Believer
:salam2:

i have been following the whole discussion, and after reading the posts i completely agree with sisters Kayleigh, valerie and Aapa. you have solid points to support your argument.

i think if one thinks rationally then there is nothing wrong if a woman works along her husband as long as she follows the Islamic rulings.

times have changed now and we have to cope with the changing trends and society then we will progress but also along with keeping our Islamic traditions alive..
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
:salam2:

i have been following the whole discussion, and after reading the posts i completely agree with sisters Kayleigh, valerie and Aapa. you have solid points to support your argument.

i think if one thinks rationally then there is nothing wrong if a woman works along her husband as long as she follows the Islamic rulings.

times have changed now and we have to cope with the changing trends and society then we will progress but also along with keeping our Islamic traditions alive..

YES, thank you. I completely agree.

Islam is a practical and logical religion. You can still be flexible and change with the times without forsaking Islam. It can be a delicate balance sometimes, and that doesn't mean you can just do anything you want. Some people like to say Islam is a rigid religion that is stuck in the middle ages, but it isn't at all.
 
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