What is your identity?

Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by Kakorot, Nov 6, 2010.

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  1. JenGiove
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    JenGiove Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    I never said it was UN-Islamic...like I have the right to make THAT call...Its more a matter of dignity and grace.

    I don't change to please other people. I just feel that since this is not a private conversation between two Brothers but also is within the "hearing" range of sisters as well, that all of our tongues need to be reigned in. I'm almost certain that speaking in a manner that imitates the kaafirs while in a mosque isn't tolerated, so why should it be here. I've already asked Moderator Al-Kashmiri about it and since there is no rule against it, there is nothing that can be done, but my personal opinion is that we are all FAR better than that.

    I curb my tongue out of respect....that is all.
  2. al-fajr
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    al-fajr ...ism..schism Staff Member

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    Assalamu'alaykum,

    No, I don't think so.

    Just as a statement of fact, a reflection of circumstance, I'm British Muslim.

    Can't be wrong to be a nationality ..Salmaan al Farsi radiAllaah anhu was from Persia, Bilal Ibn Rabah radiAllaah anhu, he was African. No big deal ..=)
  3. rightpath_357
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    rightpath_357 Junior Member

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    Well, my birth country is Pakistan but I'm legally Canadian and have been living here for almost 10 years now. Black haired- brown eyed I'm obviously not far back with the land. I'm just a Muslim though. No matter what. The two different cultures make it harder to determine who I am, but also easier to be a good Muslim. Salwar kameez (Pakistan) or sweater ( Canada/West)? Easy- whichever covers modestly and fits Islamic standards (ISLAM!).

    Ahmm- what is Sa'rihah?


    Well- I can't really vote yet :lol: - and I don't get how voting for the gov. in a non-muslim country would be Shirk. I wouldn't be keen on voting either. BUT this is what I think and value:

    If I WOULD vote, it would be for the better of the country. I'd see if any of the politicians were leaning a way that would fill in more Islamic values. There might be a politician with "Noor" somewhere in their name, and yet I would vote for maybe "Joe Brown" if he was more determined on stopping banks from charging interest rates. (Interest rates, are, by the way- HARAM). ;)
  4. Shamim56
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    Shamim56 Muslim Brother

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    1) Identity crisis? Please elaborate. Im proud to be a Muslim if thats what you mean o_O lol.

    2) I consider myself just plain Muslim. But when speaking to others i may say that im an American Muslim. I think nationality plays a big role in developing people's moral and social values. If Islam was never introduced to me, i would probably have different values than a person coming from a Muslim country. I am Bengali, but i am usually mistaken for being white or persian because my skin color is very light.

    3) I think it really depends on how your saying it. We are plain Muslims no matter what, we follow all the same teachings and rules etc.. If your trying to brag that your an Arab Muslim then yes, it will be considered wrong because bragging is not aloud in Islam. It is not wrong to say your an American Muslim or Iraqi Muslim, its just that nationality that you come from. I am Bengali but because i was raised in America i consider myself an American Muslim.

    4) I dont think i eligible to answer this question, im a Highschool student and dont know enough about modern Shari'a Government. However i will say its more important about who is running the government than the system. Be honest, everyone has heard how rich the royal family is. Everyone has heard about how they buy $10,000,000 houses. So much money being wasted.

    Is it shirk to vote in a country that does not follow Shari'a Law? There is too much debate about this. It really depends, no one wants another Bush running a Government with the largest and most advanced Military in the world. U.S government do test runs in the AirForce everyday, each one costing several million dollars. It would be very hard to implement shari'a law in the United States if Muslims attempted, the U.S abides by the constitution. It would mean there would have to be a miracle or another country overthrows the U.S government, which is really not likely to happen. United States is just too advanced, The United Nations would also have to step in.

    As Muslims we should do our best to help our other brothers and sisters in foreign countries, if the people elected another president like Bush, it would put more Muslim families in Danger.
  5. sliver
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    sliver Junior Member

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    I consider myself to be a Californian Muslim. Whatever that means.
  6. kayleigh
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    I consider myself an american muslim. I really don't attach much meaning to labels though. and no, I don't have an identity crisis. I know who I am.

    I don't think it's wrong to want shariah in the West, but I do think it's wrong and totally unrealistic for Muslims to want or expect to have complete shariah law in Western countries and to do away with the legal codes that already exist here. I agree with what BrotherInIslam said about it.

    I personally don't believe it is shirk to vote, and I do vote. There are other, better ways to get involved in politics besides voting, but it's the smallest thing you can do. It annoys me when Muslims refuse to vote but complain all the time about foreign policy and the government and hate on the US. If you're going to completely remove yourself from the political process then do just that - COMPLETELY remove yourself from it and keep your thoughts to yourself.



    Don't hate - Hebrew National are the best.
  7. BrotherInIslam7
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    BrotherInIslam7 La Illaha Illa Allah Staff Member

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    :salam2:

    Seems like I upset you. I didn't intend to.

    I thought that this thread was intended for members who were settled in the UK or USA. Whereas I am just a student here in Texas for about 4 years (I am not settled here) and intend to go back once my coursework is done InshaAllah.

    Either ways, I thank you for inviting me to share my views on your thread. Jazaki Allahu Khayran. :)

    Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi..
  8. al-fajr
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    al-fajr ...ism..schism Staff Member

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    Sometimes voting is like choosing between two entities which only differ in name. Its main role is to keep the masses on edge and give them something to get energetic about, a 'choice' between a panel of individuals who on the whole, serve the same agenda. The masses are given a false sense of control over an already rigidly controlled series of possible outcomes.

    See Part I

    Part II

    Part III
  9. kayleigh
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    Trust me, I'm well aware of how politics works. I still stand by what I said.
  10. nyerekareem
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    nyerekareem abdur-rahman

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    :salam2:

    question 1... for me, i don't have an identity crisis. i'm a no apologies muslim and i have love for my homeland. sometimes i don't agree with my country's policies but i love the people of my land.

    Q2... i usually say american muslim, cause with muslim american, it sounds as if muslim is my ethnicity when islam isnt ethnicity.

    Q3... you can't help where you're born.

    Q4... i think dawah should be done by all muslims and it should be the great comission of islam... to call people to it. shari'a can't really make a difference if we don't try to call people to islam. other muslim nations aren't implementing shari'a because they're afraid. not of islam, but of criticism from the non-muslim world.

    Q5... i have heard many opinions about muslims and voting in non muslim lands. they were mostly against it, but i feel if the voting is going to have a negative effect on muslims if they don't vote. i think they should.
    :wasalam:
  11. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    :salam2:

    Thanks about interesting thread.

    I call myself just as muslim, sometimes also as Finnish muslim (what ever it means). I don´t see what kind of identity crises I would have about it.

    I don´t see any problems with calling shariah to the west but also I don´t see it very realistic in society where most of inhabitants are not muslims. Also voting is no problem to me - partly because I am member of one political party and at few elections I have been they candidate too. So those times I hadn´t any problems who I will vote - I voted myself of course; then I even knew that person who gets my vote is 100% muslim with islamic values.

    :lol:
  12. BinImad
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    BinImad New Member

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    Brothers and sisters we need to start thinking beyond borders. We are Muslim. Your nationality is not your religion, and alhamdillah almost all countries in the world guarantee your freedom to worship. So if you live in a country that allows you to freely worship you should (despite their foreign policies ) try to be the best model citizen and neighbor in order to represent Islam in the best possible fashion.
    Secondly if you don’t vote you become even less relevant to those politicians whom are supposed to look after your interest or at least take it into account.
    In fact I believe it is very important for you to vote and be heard.
  13. Abu Talib
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    Abu Talib Feeling low

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    :salam2:

    On voting I like Sheikh Haitham Al Haddad's opinion alot



    Is voting really haram by Sheikh Haitham Al Haddad
    When we discuss the issue of voting, or any other (contemporary) issue of a similar nature, we should try to understand its reality before forming a conclusion regarding its ruling, a phenomenon termed fiqh al waqi’ (knowing and understanding the environment and factors surrounding the topic of concern). Ibn al-Qayyim considered one of the prerequisites of the mufti alongside fiqh al mas’alah (possessing proper perception of the issue at hand and its related rulings) as being fiqh al waqi’, given that it is also necessary in order to arrive at a legal opinion about a certain issue of concern.

    Let us commence by considering the following scenario: There is, in a faraway land a ruler who lives alongside his subjects. The ruler, in formulating his governance, leaves the matter to the people offering them two choices: they may choose either the law of God or secular law. This situation involves the following three parties:

    Firstly, the ruler himself who offers the implementation of the law of the Creator (Shari’ah h) to question or debate between people; there is no doubt that this ruler committed an act of kufr (disbelief) for he is obliged to rule by the law of the Creator. Allah says, “Legislation is for none but Allah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him.”[1] To him this ayah is addressed, “And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (disbelievers).”2]

    Secondly, the subjects who are requested to select between the Shari’ah and secular law; of course, it is incumbent upon them to opt for the Shari’ah. The mechanism of choosing the Shari’ah may take various forms such as voting, demonstrations, or lobbying through correspondence. No doubt, people must do their best in order to bring about the implementation of Islamic law, and thus, can anyone argue that it is impermissible for people to vote to choose the Shari’ah since voting is an essential part of democracy which in turn is kufr? If such a claim were to be posited then it becomes evident that we have proved unable to conceptualise the issue at hand. To claim voting is an act of kufr is extremely inaccurate and as a point in case take the situation where a person is consulted (as happens in some countries including the UK) as to whether he would opt for a Shari’ah court or a court that will rule on the basis of secular law. Should this person, in view of the aforementioned erroneous argument, declare that he refuses to choose since choosing is voting which in turn is part of democracy, a system of kufr?! What should such an individual do? Should he abstain from doing anything? What if the constitution states that the judicial system is to remain secular unless the person opts for the Shari’ah? Can we say in this case that this person is obliged to vote or choose the Shari’ah court? Can we also say that abstention from voting means that the person has implicitly accepted secular law as the basis of the judicial system which is an act of kufr?

    From this discussion we can conclude three important points:

    1. Voting, in many cases, merely means choosing or selecting.
    2. Participation in a kufr system does not necessarily mean participation in kufr itself. It depends on the nature of such participation.
    3. Abstention from voting sometimes causes more harm than voting itself.


    Thirdly, the people who want to be part of the legislative executive like those who want to be members of parliament. This issue requires a separate detailed study and is beyond the scope of this discussion.

    Another important scenario which must be highlighted is when the inhabitants of a country who have the Shari’ah as the dominant system want to choose a leader - they employ elections as a mechanism selection; can we say this is democracy and thus an act of kufr?

    From the above discussion we may conclude that it is absolutely wrong to generalise the ruling by saying that democracy is an act of kufr. Instead we should say things that makes sense to people and reflects our correct understandings. We should be extremely careful in accusing individuals of kufr; the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “The one who accuses his brother of kufr then surely one of them is as has been claimed.”

    The word democracy was originally coined to mean the rule of the people, however, these days it has various connotations where it can be used to merely mean a selection mechanism. That is why we see the introduction of the term liberal democracy. Some observers believe that this new term was introduced in order to emphasise that Muslim countries should be democratic in their selecting rulers as well as constitution. So from this perspective, a liberal democracy entails that the constitution itself has to be subject to selection through a democratic mechanism.


    Muslims living under a Kufr system
    Muslims living in a liberal democracy should understand their situation in all of its various facets. Muslims believe that ultimate justice, peace, and reason cannot be achieved unless the divine system is dominant. In many cases they are unable to achieve this in the foreseeable future. So what should they do until they reach this stage?

    Abstinence from voting will not realistically lead to change and any sane person would say that abstaining from selecting the least evil option would only leave room for the more evil option to win.

    Here I would like to respond to the various arguments posited by those brothers who are against selection through voting. What is important is that we identify why we are against voting, is it because it is an act of kufr or because it is harmful and damaging for Muslims? Having responded to the first claim let us now focus on the second. It may be argued that:

    Selecting one of these parties ultimately endorse their policies that are based on man-made laws (kufr law).
    This is not necessarily the case for the following reason: choosing an option means that you endorse it only if there are better options offered. But if the other choice is worse, then you are actually endorsing the difference between this option and the one that is less harmful. Take for example eating un-slaughtered meat for a starving person, he is allowed (or even obliged) to do so, yet does that mean that he is endorsing eating un-slaughtered meat? Of course not; he is endorsing the difference between these options which in this case is saving his life. Saving his life by eating un-slaughtered meat is better than starving to death. That is why this is an agreed upon principle. So quoting each party’s statement that they are going to do so and so if they win separately and without comparing this with what other parties say is not a very honest approach since it does not give the audience the full picture. This becomes worse when the alternative presented is just a hypothetical solution.
    So I urge the brothers and sisters not to accuse anybody of kufr or sins just because they vote for one of these parties in such a situation. Such accusations reflect ignorance as well as naivety in comprehension.

    By voting you are involved in the political system - a step towards integration which ultimately resulting in the loss of Muslim identity whilst living in western countries.
    I agree that integration in its wider meaning leads to the loss of Muslim distinctiveness and it is a hidden agenda by the enemies of Islam to deceive Muslims so that they lose their identity. However, this is not necessarily an implication of voting. I agree that full political participations might lead to major problems for Muslims and we have to be very careful when stepping into this arena. However, ticking the box for one of the candidates in no way qualifies as full political participation.

    I would like to mention here that I also advise our brothers who are involved in leading Muslims in terms of politics to be aware that some Muslims might understand that voting means full involvement in the game of politics, a realm that is full of deception and cunning, a fact realised by many non-Muslims themselves. So they should use cautious language when encouraging Muslims to vote. Statements such as “voting is the only way for Muslims in this country”, “voting is the lifeboat”, “voting is part of our belief”, “voting means citizenship” and so on should be avoided. Such emotional and excessive statements lead to contrary statements and reactions that are equally emotional and extreme.

    It is not true that we do not have another option. We have to strengthen our Muslim community and work hard for our independence.
    I think all agree that the Muslim community needs to strengthen itself and its own organisations. However, this is not an option that is incompatible with having party A, B or C in power. We can vote to select the best option while we are working for our community and our future.

    We are not going to get anything by voting while it might be impermissible so it is better to abstain from it.
    It is not easy to come up with such a conclusion. We need a thorough analytical study that can confirm that all parties are nothing but different faces of one coin. I agree that voting is not the lifeline for Muslims in this country as represented by some Muslims and I have asked parties on both sides of the voting argument to come up with an academic study to prove their points. However, it is difficult to say that all parties are exactly the same in internal and external policy. Logically, not all non-Muslims are the same, even the kuffar of Makkah were different. Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet, was completely different from Abu Jahl. Abu Talib helped the Prophet (peace be upon him) and sheltered him while the other uncle would torture the Prophet and his companions. Should we not do our best to choose the one that is less evil and better for humanity? Indeed, abstention from voting is essentially indirect voting. Let me explain this by the following example:

    Imagine that 6 people were to vote for two parties named A and B. A states in his manifesto that he will legalise *!*!*!*!ography, ban faith-schools, kill 1000 Muslims, and prevent Muslims from adorning the hijab. B states that he will legalise *!*!*!*!ography but allow faith schools and kill 500 Muslims. 3 of us vote for A and 2 votes for B and I, in believing that voting is kufr, abstain from doing so. What will happen?

    Inevitably, A will win, but if I vote for B, then no one will. So by participating I lessen the evil. Let us now say that we have 2 more people, either they vote for B or abstain. Abstention will not change the situation while encouraging them to vote for B, who will do all these filthy things, will mean that A will lose which means that we saved the life of 500 Muslims and had a chance to have faith schools and practice hijab! So whether we vote or not, we actually vote since we are part of the population. This is how the system works, at least in Britain. If someone disagrees with this then s/he should provide proof bearing in mind that s/he should be systematic in his/her approach and clear in presenting his/her case. In his abstaining to vote s/he has implicitly accepted the principle of voting when it is proved that abstention from voting is indirect voting.

    If we vote we will not bring any Muslim to power.
    It is indeed correct, but who said that our aim (in the near future) is to bring a Muslim into power. Our realistic aim in the near future is to have a better person with a better system in power. It is impractical to think of having a true Muslim leader in the near future in most non-Muslim countries. Our ultimate aim is to help those who are better than their co-politicians.

    Boycotting elections is better for Muslims since it sends a strong message to the politician that we are not happy with them and their system. Moreover it will show the ineligibility of this round of elections.
    This might be true but as I said earlier we need a deep study and understanding of the complicated political situation to confirm such conclusions. I urge those brothers who believe in this to produce a provisional work proving this point. In the mean time we should know that such boycotting will not be effective unless all Muslims do so. That is why, before we arrive at such conclusions a deep discussion with all Muslims involved in politics and other related fields should take place. It should not be an individual opinion of a single party. However, we should bear in mind that if a decision were taken to boycott elections, then we should be clear why we do so. Is it because of the original ruling of voting and elections or because of the impracticality of it?


    Conclusion
    I would like to conclude by urging the community to be united in their decision. Such unity is the only way for their voice to be effective. Unity here means following one strategy whether we decide to vote or boycott elections. Once we decide to vote, which in the UK is the decision at least for the moment, we should appoint one main body to lead us in the political process.

    Source: www.islam21c.com
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