Asalam wailkium bros and sista's and friends. I've been away for some time, mostly owing to my worklife and the horrible commuting exhausting, energy draining weekly occurence. Anyways i've missed you old folks. Let me jump in with some of my own straight forward analysis on brother septithol post.
I'm not sure what your point is. I do know that most people of most religions think everyone who doesn't believe their particular religion is going to hell, but I think that is absolute foolishness.
We muslim's believe God almighty is the only one who will ultimately decide whether you go to heaven as a result of your deeds, the conduct and in the manner in which you lived of your life, if it was good and acceptable. And God has shown the way of life someone should lead is in submission to God shown by the example of the prophet(s). So it's not foolishness, its rather logical that if one goes against the law of God and dies in this state that they may be punished for their actions. Similarly in this life, if we go against the law of society, and persist in doing criminal actions, we evitably will face justice, and the result can be community service, prison and ultimately execution.
To think someone is not going to heaven, because they do not know the absolute truth about God
I absolutely agree with this principle, however what if there were events or occasions (episodes) in life where the truth was presented to you, revealed to you yet due to one's own desires, ignorance, negative feelings in the heart, that individual rejected it and missed that opportunity to realise and seize the truth. Thus, of that person died, and God showed them those signs' or chances' where in the truth was presented, yet that person rejected, threw away the application form due to their own arrogance and pride, then its their own fault. So punishment for that individual can be warrent, you refused to take those opportunities that were presented/given to you.
Now, some people here have said that according to the Islam religion, people who have never learned of Islam can still go to heaven, but those who have learned of it and reject it, will not go to heaven. This is actually an interesting point, but oversimplifies things.
To broaden this statement, what we really mean is, no one knows what is the end situation of a person. You could be one the straight path, done good all your life, however in the last hurdle, Allah would test your heart, to reveal the arrogance and pride buried deep inside, and by failing that vital test, one could end up in hellfire. Whilst the opposite can also occur, one can do all the evil and be rebellous, but then towards the end of their life, Allah may test them with a special trial, in which that individual actually passes, and as a result, enters paradise. No one knows that the end is, we only see each other's actions, but only Allah knows what is in the heart, ie who is sincere. So hence thats why the scholars say what you pointed out.
What I think is interesting about the point, is the question of, what happens to a person who hears some particular truth about God, but then chooses to reject that truth?
We would say such a person has done harm only to themselves. You when we talk about the truth' or the 'reality of life' in terms of God and religion, we say there is a clear distinction between the truth and the falsehood. You don't have to be a engineer or a scientist or a lawyer to understand or to make sense of the truth when it crosses your path. The whole reason for us having free will and being the creation of Allah that can use our mind and god given reason, is to differentiate the truth from falsehood. Often many people end up rejecting the truth after it is shown to them simply because their hearts have become overtake by their own selfish desires, and although their logical human mind and reason may accept the truth presentedto them, their heart's haven't as it too consumed with all the negative human qualities of greed, lust, arrogance and pride. Thus, Allah says after been given the truth, if one rejects it, they only harm themselves, ie their own interests in this life and the next. As khalid bin wahleed put it 'disbelief is like a desert which makes one lose their way', so you bear the decision and its consequence on the day of judgment in the court of Allah and his angels.
If somebody rejects a truth that they hear, because they honestly do not believe it, and it truly does not make any sense to them, then I think they are likely to be forgiven.
In this situation we can say that truth is being mixed with deception. So it is then upto that individual to persue this enquiry, and to investigate it, using his intellect, wealth, experience and god given logical/reason. It's upto to that person who doesn't believe the world is flat based on your evidence, to go do some independent research, to investigate the matter, to see if it is the truth or not. Same with the message of Allah, if your not convinced by what you heared, then its for you, by your own god given free will to evaluate it further on so then you can verify it and then accept it or reject it. But after investigating, if that person then still persists to reject the truth because of their own negative desires then they have to bear responsibilty for it on the day of judgement. Ultimately in both situations, God almighty is supreme in wisdom, justice and might and his decision will always be the correct, in judging whether or not someone is blameworthy in rejecting his signs, proofs and message during the lifetime we kept on turning away from it.
And by the way, if you think about it, it is also possible for a person to claim they believe something that is actually true, but to do so dishonestly, because they do not actually believe it, but are claiming it for some other reason than truly believing it.
This is why Allah says to the reader of the quran, i know what is inside you (your hidden thoughts and desires) whether you reveal it or not, i know it, i've seen it, ie you may have hidden it from your wife, friends, family and neighbours but you cannot hide it from me. Thus we are told to purify our intentions and actions before the time comes when it will be too late.
Anyway, as for people not comprehending my particular religion, as I have said in a few other posts, my particular religion is extremely complicated. Probably most people would not be able to understand it.
You cannot come up with your own religion, as you did not create the heavens and the earth and you do not determine life and death, you won't be ressurecting the day and judging people on the day of judgment. This is the dominion of the creator, maker, originator, therefore the only religion or truth that we should follow has to come from God, ie externally and not from any internal human though i.e. contructing our own religion, as if we God ourselve. This is definetly a misguidance, and Allah will cross examine those individuals saying why did you do that when i sent you my book as gudiance and my messenger as example/with clear signs, then why did you reject this and come out with all these irrational man-made religions, ie why did you end up following yourself.
So in summary my view is we live very brief life's, we can be distracted by our work and families, the abundant material in the world, but all this fancy play will become useless at the moment of death, after which we only have our moral deeds that will count or be of significance on the day of judgment. Quran clear tape records and plays the excuses of the people who try on that day to give their own reasons why they failed to follow the truth and ultimately their statements will be replied to, and shown to them, just like playing a recorded tape of themselves, thus those who did good will deserve reward and those who didn't have to be punished just like in this world we punish those in the courts who are guilty.
Finally, i'd like to say we welcome more of your posts brother Septithol i hope i tried to clearly answer them in a short concise manner and i look forward to your response and with that i will go have my dinner!
Amir of spain
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