Women and non-Muslims

Matouf

New Member
Sister mirajmom has vast knowledge with regards to your question based on her experiences over the years.. I can't touch her or come near her wisdom. We are greatful for having her.

On a seperate note; something just popped in my head and I wish that you; Matouf may be able to reflect on this. I find that many western women easily attack the muslim based cultures; hence blame the religion itself which is innocent of the people's actions. But, I wonder:

1) Does it ever come to you that almost 99.9% of the por*ography comes from those same western Christian societies?? Strip clubs are abundant in every city in the US and Europe; yet they are considered Christian societies.

2) Do you view this as equality of women among their men peers??

3) How can this be viewed as equality to women as they have become slaves to men's sexual desires that it has become the norm??

4) How much abuse, corruption and loss of human rights these same women are being subjected to by selecting such life style?? not to mention the crime, drugs, homocide, and suicide associated wth such life style.

5) If you consider that the dominant faith of these western societies is Christianity, how come no finger is being pointed at these Christian women and their equality under such western Christian societies?? Yet, these same Christian women are too quick at pointing their fingers at the muslim covered (by choice) woman and judging "she must have lost all her rights."

6) Do you really feel that women in the western Christian socioties are treated fairly and equally??

7) Is it fair to blame Christianity by the actions of these Christian westerners?

I would love to hear your answers.

Respectfully,
Ak

.
Thank you so very much for these excellent questions. I indeed think, this will help to clarify my point of view and maybe also some wrong conclusions of yours about Western societies. Well, the hope dies at last ;)

1) Does it ever come to you that almost 99.9% of the por*ography comes from those same western Christian societies?? Strip clubs are abundant in every city in the US and Europe; yet they are considered Christian societies.
Firstly, I personally am oppose to por*ography and strip clubs. Secondly, this is my personal opinion and just because I personally never would attend a strip show (we also have strip shows performed by men for a female audience, if also of course the demand for such services is way lower then for the other gender) I don't think I have the right to tell anyone else what he or she is allowed (or not allowed) to do.

That there is no por*ography or strip shows are produced in Islamic countries doesn't mean that the men aren't consuming it otherwise or search for alternatives if they have the possibility. Is producing worse than consuming? And is Nikāḥu l-Mut‘ah not just a different name for prostitution? What about legal child marriages, what about multi-wives? To me it seems, in Islam such things are just hided, given a different name or compensated otherwise. And this makes it even worse for women to fight legally against it. That the honour of a family is mostly based on women also doesn't help to encourage women to go public in cases of sexual abuse. Not to speak of an infrastructure which would help to claim their right (not losing automatically the custody of their children after a certain age in case of divorce, getting financial support from the state as well as providing women shelters and the chance to get a proper job to become independent etc).

I wished we would finally get rid fully of the last rest of our Christian past. And this exactly is the reason why I am oppose to Islam. I want to be open and direct. It's really not my intention to hurt anyones feelings. But I fear the huge steps we successfully made in the last not even hundred years, we will go back twice as far with Islam. Cause Islam doesn't know the concept of seperation of religion and state, there does not exist some sort of system of private religion. Islam by it's nature strives for controlling of everything. Why do we need religious dogmas at all? To live a useful and good life I only need one principle: What you don't want yourself, don't do to others. That simple. If a secular law is unclear and leads to injustice, it easily can be adjusted. When it comes to religion, it is way way way more difficult. So many different interpretations about the "true" religion, not to speak of the different interpretations and branches within one religion alone. Be it Islam or Christianity. So many branches, so many delicate emotions, what about the non-believers. Too difficult to be solved.

I rather rely on a law which is based on reason and rationality and hence can be altered by factual discussion if the result (which is provable) show us the effect is wrong or not working properly. Less irrationality, inhibition and more freedom for everyone.

2) Do you view this as equality of women among their men peers??
If you talk about spreading the image of a submissive sex object, then my answer is of course a clear No.

3) How can this be viewed as equality to women as they have become slaves to men's sexual desires that it has become the norm??
To me that's the same question as in #2. Hence I refer to my answer there.

4) How much abuse, corruption and loss of human rights these same women are being subjected to by selecting such life style?? not to mention the crime, drugs, homocide, and suicide associated wth such life style.
I agree. And yet, prostitution exists since human history can be traced back. It survived prohibition and ever will. To prohibit doesn't mean to solve the problem. Abuse just goes out of public. That doesn't mean it happens. Provide women alternatives to get their share on assets as well as men do, and less women will be compelled in this kind of "business".

5) If you consider that the dominant faith of these western societies is Christianity, how come no finger is being pointed at these Christian women and their equality under such western Christian societies?? Yet, these same Christian women are too quick at pointing their fingers at the muslim covered (by choice) woman and judging "she must have lost all her rights."
Despite I am no Christian myself, I do and I know many Christians who do as well. My experience is, no matter if Christian or not, if they are oppose to por*ography, strip shows and any other kind of the sex industry, they equally point their fingers also at Muslim covered women. I personally feel degraded as a woman when seeing a *!*!*!*!ografic advertisement. The same degraded feeling I get when I notice a covered Muslim women passing by.

6) Do you really feel that women in the western Christian socioties are treated fairly and equally??
Not fully, no. But the situations (theoretically by law but also practically) for women hugely increased since secularisation. And only due to secularisation. It's still a long way to go, though. But I ask you the same question: Do you really feel that women in Islamic countries are treated fairly and equally?

7) Is it fair to blame Christianity by the actions of these Christian westerners?
If those Christians refer to their belief to justify their action, then yes I do. For example when it comes to justify that a women can't become priests in Catholic Churches or that they have to be submissive to their husbands. Many other (luckily not valid anymore due the effect of secularisations) laws derived from the Bible. But as much as I know this is quite similar to Islam. Muslimas also there have to be obedient to their husbands.

The result in reality is what matters to me. And I can't see that Islamic countries or Islam would offer a better or fair and equal concept for women than Christianity. Otherwise they would have to re-write their holy books. But to clarify this again, I don't care which religion someone adhers to. Result is everything.


I hope I answered in detail your questions? Feel free to ask.

Good night to all. Btw. I won't be here till wednesay probably, cause of a business trip. So please don't consider it as impolite, if I won't reply to any post earlier.

Good night to all,
be safe,
Matouf
 

BigAk

Junior Member
I beg your pardon, I was not talking about the Koran. I was talking about the conflation of three seperate definitions of the term 'Islam'.

Let me try this again..

You haven't even read and researched the Quran... But yet you feel that you are an authority to talk about Islam !!!???

That's what I meant... To us Quran is Islam and vice versa.

Quran <=> Islam
Muhammad (pbu) <=> Islam

That's what you keep missing in all your posts.

.
 

Summer03

3doTs2sQuares
psst fraulein Matouf,

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=21

"what exactly would be different to how they are treated right now in islamic countries?"

well not much but there are some things which enjoins upon men for their behaviour towards women, and for women for their behaviour towards men. i m sure u will find what you need in the link above.

here are some of the things which are better for women in islamic countries:

there are far less divorces in islamic countries,
far less break ups in islamic countries,
far less rape in islamic countries,
much much less sexual harassment in islamic countries (in my country sexual harassment in the office is almost 0%),
men just don't abandon their families, they are loyal and faithful
woment don't elope with other men, they stay true to their husbands
incest is nil in islamic countries
women feel safer because there are no drunks who will touch them in the streets
there is no bestiality in islamic countries

at the time of marriage, a woman asks for an amount of money, called Mehr, which is given to her. this can be any amount as agreed by man and wife, from 1 euro to 1 million euros. this Mehr cannot be taken from the woman under any circumstances. it is only for a woman to keep. her father, brother, husband, children nobody can take this from her. this is islamic law which every muslim respects.

anal or oral sex is not allowed in islam solely because it is painful/demeaning to the woman.

in islam, the highest status any human being can achieve is motherhood. and that honour only goes to the woman.

Brother I would like for you to please post references because where do you get these statistics...?
 

BinteShafi

Left long ago
spetithol....truth has been presented to you and has got a proof in itself...but your sight can't see that and your intellect can not comprehend that. You are simply deaf, blind, and dumb.
 

sazk

Banned
http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html - shows divorce rates around the world.

http://www.darndivorce.com/divorce-rates-around-the-world/ - shows you that countries that are highly secular or don't believe in god have the highest divorce rates. incidentally they have the highest suicide rates in the world also.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0200806.html - statistics are shown mainly from non-muslims countries but show their high divorce rates.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

rape statistics:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita - which country is at the bottom? kindly tell me i cant read.

ofcourse all that i pointed out was true. and non-muslims well know this is true. you can visit any muslim country and see for yourself.

but you don't want to see. you won't even see these statistics. you just want to deliberately find flaws. if its a well known fact that rape is far less in islamic countries, you say no we want statistics, even when the whole world knows this to be true. go and see the UN WomenWatch reports yourself!
 

Summer03

3doTs2sQuares
http://www.divorcereform.org/gul.html - shows divorce rates around the world.

http://www.darndivorce.com/divorce-rates-around-the-world/ - shows you that countries that are highly secular or don't believe in god have the highest divorce rates. incidentally they have the highest suicide rates in the world also.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0200806.html - statistics are shown mainly from non-muslims countries but show their high divorce rates.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

rape statistics:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita - which country is at the bottom? kindly tell me i cant read.

ofcourse all that i pointed out was true. and non-muslims well know this is true. you can visit any muslim country and see for yourself.

but you don't want to see. you won't even see these statistics. you just want to deliberately find flaws. if its a well known fact that rape is far less in islamic countries, you say no we want statistics, even when the whole world knows this to be true. go and see the UN WomenWatch reports yourself!

Ok first of all I asked you without any attitude... I apologize if that's how it seemed, second I'm not trying to find any flaws because 1- I'm on your side and 2- I was correcting something that way the Asker doesn't think your making all that up. So thank you for your references.

Salamu alaikum
 

sazk

Banned
:) . sister my apologies . i know which side u're on :) but if the asker didn't ask why do you have to? maybe the asker knows these facts too well, thats why she didnt ask.
 

Summer03

3doTs2sQuares
ok so she might know, and Allah knows best... But wouldn't your answers be much stronger with your proof? And plus this information can help others on this forum answer questions elsewhere. As Muslims we always need back up for our information...right?
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Dear friend Islam if followed with sincerity rebuild human s morality in such a way that all creatures of God(Allah the creator of all) are treated with dignity in a true Islamic society following the teachings of Allah swt:

49:11 O ye who believe! Let not a folk deride a folk who may be better than they (are), nor let women (deride) women who may be better than they are; neither defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. Bad is the name of lewdness after faith. And whoso turneth not in repentance, such are evil-doers.
49:12 O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.
49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.



2:83 AND LO! We accepted this solemn pledge from [you,] ' the children of Israel: "You shall worship none but Allah; and you shall do good unto your parents and kinsfolk, and the orphans, and the poor; and you shall speak unto all people in a kindly way; and you shall be constant in prayer; and you shall spend in charity. ”And yet, save for a few of you, you turned away: for you are obstinate folk!


3:133 Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-
3:134 who spend [in His way] in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because Allah loves the doers of good;

Any true islamic society should be a society with high morality were all creatures including animals and plants are treated with love and care. Islam make people think in a different way about all that is around, when hearts are full with love of the creator then this love will flow all around.

Translation of the meanings of Quran

with love and respect
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Astagfuru Allah...... sorry i made a mistake i my post please ignore the above and read the following:

Dear friend Islam if followed with sincerity rebuild human s morality in such a way that all creatures of God(Allah the creator of all) are treated with dignity in a true Islamic society following the teachings of Allah swt:

49:11 O ye who believe! Let not a folk deride a folk who may be better than they (are), nor let women (deride) women who may be better than they are; neither defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. Bad is the name of lewdness after faith. And whoso turneth not in repentance, such are evil-doers.
49:12 O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.
49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.



2:83 AND LO! We accepted this solemn pledge from [you,] ' the children of Israel: "You shall worship none but Allah; and you shall do good unto your parents and kinsfolk, and the orphans, and the poor; and you shall speak unto all people in a kindly way; and you shall be constant in prayer; and you shall spend in charity. ”And yet, save for a few of you, you turned away: for you are obstinate folk!


3:133 Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-
3:134 who spend [in His way] in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because Allah loves the doers of good;

Translation of the meanings of Quran

Any true islamic society should be a society with high morality were all creatures including animals and plants are treated with love and care. Islam make people think in a different way about all that is around, when hearts are full with love of the creator then this love will flow all around.



with love and respect
__________________
'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle took hold of my shoulder and said,:Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveler.

The mistake is that I put :Translation of the meanings of Quran
under my own words :)astag:).
 

~Ali_

Fixing da foundation
The result in reality is what matters to me. And I can't see that Islamic countries or Islam would offer a better or fair and equal concept for women than Christianity. Otherwise they would have to re-write their holy books. But to clarify this again, I don't care which religion someone adhers to. Result is everything.


I dont mean to be rude here but this is what i picked up from the above... sorry if its harsh I dont mean to be but.. I dont know how else to put it .. sorry!!

Um..when you mean results, does that mean fulfiling you own desires?
Or does that mean the results should make you happy,
even if the results benefit the community as a whole, isnt approved by you?

and

You say that if wanted we want to offer a fair and equal concept - we would have to re-write our holy books..no? well as I see it now, the quran has no need to be changed to be fair and equal to people... or else we people would have changed it already you see.

The so called islamic countries today, dont really follow the true islamic way (i think someone mentioned that already) if you want to look/understand the true islamic way of life look at the time of the rightly guided caliphs and compare that day and age to what was happening in the good ol' west.

Women didnt have any rights then. From my knowledge...didnt the christians run around burning women because they were "witchs"

I mean women in christianity get treated like dirt - there was a thread around here somewhere in comparison - do a search.

But this isnt about women in islam and christianity - its about weather the rules of islam are fair in todays day and age no? - I saw a audio lecture of dr.zakir. naik. I think it went by the title of " womens right in islam is it outdated or modernized" or something like that, i didnt get a chance to listen to it, but inshallah I will soon :) but yeah if anyone knows the real title of the lecture - pop it up here please.

I am currently in uni - so sorry for the hasty answer.

peace - and I hope you find your answers :)
 

tabaria

Junior Member
Secular law based on reason?

Secularism seems very irrational. Muslim women can not wear the hijab in many ultra secular countries because it "undermines secularism". You have had secular countries commit the greatest acts of genocide ever. From the third reich to stalin, secularism doesn't exactly have a record of being purely based on reason. The French Revolution was in the 18th century and the Europeans still had a profound hate for jews which climaxed under nazi Germany.

Compare this to the old caliphs and you see the exact opposite. In mooris spain minority christian and jewish residents served as ministers. At the house of Wisdom in Baghdad people from all around the world and from a variety of religions came to learn and research in all fields, and were funded by the caliphs.

Contrast that to Baghdad now under secular rule. America has used tons of depleted uranium, children are now constantly being born in defects and die shortly after birth. But I suppose this is considered rational.

Everything has limits. You can only drive so fast, you can only sell certain kind of products, and certain behavior is not accepted.

Look at the laws against polygamy in the west. It's illegal to have more than one wife. it's considered promiscuous and you can go to jail for it.

However you can have multiple affairs on your wife and its not illegal. It makes no sense.

And women aren't exactly loving up western culture. The use of antidepressants has tripled in the last decade.

It should also be noted that many of the countries you use as example to develop your opinion are in fact secular.
 

nyerekareem

abdur-rahman
:salam2:

the best way to know how muslim women feel; is just to ask them. when you do, you'll realize that the sisters practice islam by choice and are proud to be muslims. yes, there are several people in power that mistreat women, but that isn't the culture of islam. although islam has given us the truth and shown people a way out from ignorance, it doesn't mean that it destroyed ignorance or ignorant culture.
:wasalam:
 

Almeftah

Junior Member
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Any negative openion or point of view regarding Islam will be made or given out of ignorance, lack of faith, misguidance, or disbelief.

(Quran 5:3) those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion.

The problem isn't in Islam, The problem is in mislead muslims who've been mispracticing Islam, And those disbelievers who've been fighting Islam and try hard to show islam in a bad image, By giving examples of mispracticing muslims.

(4:82)Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikûn, and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.

(2:105) Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the idolaters, polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.
----------------------------\\

NOW, regarding the rights of men and women..

(Quran 4) And wish not for the things in which Allâh has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allâh of His Bounty. Surely, Allâh is Ever All¬Knower of everything. (32) And to everyone, We have appointed heirs of that (property) left by parents and relatives. To those also with whom you have made a pledge (brotherhood), give them their due portion (by Wasiyyah will). Truly, Allâh is Ever a Witness over all things. (33) Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property).

(Quran:24) Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do. (30) And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms,) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful[] (31)

This is the will of Allah and it is His plannings.. So if you believe, then stop questioning. Otherwise..
(6:70) And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and whom the life of this world has deceived. But remind (them) with it (the Qur'ân) lest a person be given up to destruction for that which he has earned, when he will find for himself no protector or intercessor besides Allâh, and even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him. Such are they who are given up to destruction because of that which they have earned. For them will be a drink of boiling water and a painful torment because they used to disbelieve.

(Quran:3) Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding. (190) Those who remember Allâh (always, and in prayers) standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! (Exalted are You above all that they associate with You as partners). Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire. (191) "Our Lord! Verily, whom You admit to the Fire, indeed, You have disgraced him, and never will the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) find any helpers. (192) "Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one (Muhammad SAW) calling to Faith: ‘Believe in your Lord,’ and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrâr (the pious believers of Islamic Monotheism). (193) "Our Lord! Grant us what You promised unto us through Your Messengers and disgrace us not on the Day of Resurrection, for You never break (Your) Promise." (194) So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), "Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another, so those who emigrated and were driven out from their homes, and suffered harm in My Cause, and who fought, and were killed (in My Cause), verily, I will expiate from them their evil deeds and admit them into Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise); a reward from Allâh, and with Allâh is the best of rewards." (195)
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
Islam and Muslims

Salam Alakum (Peace be on you all)

To be honest I have read each and every post, as they are too many to go through. But I am read most of the them, so let me disucss the points which I came across. Please forgive me if I have missed out on a point or if I have misinterpreted any point.

There is no one who would disagree that if one has to learn about mathematics than he should learn it from a mathematician (maths lecturer). If one wants to learn about english he should do so from a english teacher. But does it no mean many people, want to learn Islam from a Non-Islamic source. Does it seem fair though. Dont get me wrong here, I am not pointing out fingers to anyone, thats just a general statement.
Lets define some terms to begin with;

First word comes from the root "slm" or "salama". The word ISLAM in reference to the faith is understood in Arabic as the:


Surrender: "Give up evil and lusts - give in to the Creator"
Submission: "Agree to the terms & conditions of being a servant of Almighty God"
Obedience:"Comply with His Commandments to the best of your ability"
Sincerity: "Do it all whether or not anyone else notices or cares."
Peace: "Accept what Almighty God gives you in this life in serenity."

All of which come about only by giving up the Free Will of the nafs (self or ego) in favor of the Will of the Creator and Sustainer of All That Exists (ALLAH).

This would be similar to the teaching in the Lord's Prayer for the Christians, when Jesus, peace be upon him, taught his followers a prayer asking for "God's Will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven." (Matt. 6)

ISLAM is mention in the Quran as a "deen" or way of life of an individual. A complete way of living in balance with everything else in the creation of Almighty Allah. ISLAM provides inclusive instructions for everything including eating, sleeping, dealing in relationships, economics, politics, health, worship and even death. The entire universe is "IN ISLAM" because it is all a part of what has been created and is being sustained by Almighty Allah.

"What does the term "Muslim" actually mean?"

Again, we must keep in mind that it is an Arabic word and is of course subject to the rules of the Arabic language. Actually, it is derived from the word ISLAM. Whereas, you might think of ISLAM as the verb or action and MUSLIM as the noun, or the one performing the action. In English whenever we have a noun performing a verb, we add the two suffix letters; ER. But in the Arabic language many times you will find that the prefix letters of MU are used for the same purpose.

A few examples may help to better understand. We will compare the verb of each language to the one who is reforming the verb:

MU - prefix for the verb
Preforming the verbs in ENGLISH

Preforming the verbs in ARABIC

Travel = TravelER Safar = MUsafar
Call = CallER Adhan = MUadhan
Pray = PrayER Salah = MUsalah
Submit = Submit ER Islam = MUslim

A "MUSLIM" is one who follows or practices the action of "ISLAM"

In English, when we understand the "ISLAM" is an action, we might say that anyone who "Islams" is an "Islam-ER." Right? We see in the chart above, in Arabic the "mu" preceding a verb indicates the same thing. Therefore, we would understand that the one who is actively doing the verb of "Islam" [submission to God] is a "Mu"-Islam or "Muslim."

Now that the word Islam and Muslims are defined lets more onto other question, basically two objections raised (a) women in Islam and (b) Non-Muslims under Islamic law.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
Women Under Islamic Law:

Women Under Islamic Law:

Lets first define Women rights:

According to the Oxford dictionary, ‘Women’s Rights are the rights, that promote a position of social and legal equality, of women to men’

According to the Oxford dictionary, ‘they are the rights, claimed for the women, equal to those of men, as regards to suffrage that right to vote, as regards to property, etc’.

Islam’s radical revolutionary support, gave women their due right and status in the days of ignorance i.e. 1,400 years ago. Aapproximately one fifth of the world’s population, consists of Muslims.’

There are different Muslim societies - Some may be close to Islam, some may be far away from Islam

The ‘Women’s rights in Islam’ should judged according to the authentic sources, and not what individual Muslims do, or what the Muslim society does. The authentic sources of Islam, are the Qur’an, which is the word of God, and the authentic Sunnah, and the traditions of our beloved Prophet (may peace be upon him).

If one want to show me the bad behaviour of some Muslims, I can do so that of any other community. What does that prove? Nothing.

Spiritaulity:

When it comes to spiritiality men and women are equal as what ever worship that a Muslim men performs, same worship the man does example 5 daily prayers, fasting etc. And the reward for both is same;

Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward. (33:35)

‘If any of you do deeds of righteousness, whether it be male or a female and has faith, they shall surely enter Paradise and not the least injustice shall be done to them’ (4:124)

But the women has been given certain concession in Islam.

If she is undergoing her menstrual period or pregnancy, she does not have to fast - She can keep those fasts later on, when she is more healthy
In fact, during the menstrual period and during the postnatal period, she need not pray also - She has been given the concession, and neither does she have to compensate it later on.


Role of man and women in scoiety:

In Islam, the role of a man and woman… it is complimentary, it is not conflicting - It is that of a partnership - it is not contradictory, so as to strive for supremacy.

Islam believes in equality of men and women – ‘Equality’ does not always mean ‘Identicality’.

Let us analyze the Economical rights - Islam gave economical rights to the women 1,400 years before the West.

An adult Muslim woman can own, she can dispose or disown any of her property without consulting any one, irrespective whether she is married or she is single.

In 1870, it was the first time in England, that the West recognized the rights of the married woman, where she was allowed to own or dispose any of her property without consultation.

A women in Islam, if she wishes to work she can work - There is no text in the Qur’an or the authentic Hadith which prevents or makes it prohibited for a woman to do any work, as long as it is not unlawful, as long as it is within the preview of the Islamic Shariah, as long as she maintains her Islamic dress code.

Many of the professions and jobs which are prohibited for the woman are also prohibited for the man, for example serving liquor.

For example working in gambling dens - For example doing any unethical or dishonest business - All these jobs are prohibited for both men and women.
A true Islamic society requires women to take up profession such as doctors.
But, a woman in Islam has got no financial obligations - The financial obligation is laid on the shoulders of the man in the family - Therefore she need not work for her livelihood. So its a right she has but its not an obligation. No one would argue that Right without obligation is better than rights with obligation.

But in genuine cases, where there are financial crisis in which both the ends do not meet, she has the option of working

Here too, no one can force her to work - She works out of her own, absolute free will.

If a Woman works, which she does not have to - whatever earning she gets, it is absolutely her property.

She need not spend a single penny on the household - if she wants to spend it is her free will.

Irrespective how rich the wife is, it is the duty of the husband to give lodging, boarding, clothing and look after the financial aspects of the wife.
In case of divorce or if a wife gets widowed, she is given financial support for the period of ‘Iddah’ - and if she has children, she is also given child support
Islam gave the right to the women to inherit, centuries ago.

If you read the Qur’an - in several verses, in Surah Nisa, in Surah Baqarah and in Surah Maidah, it is mentioned that a woman irrespective, she is a wife or she is a mother, or a sister, or a daughter, she has a right to inherit - And it has been fixed by Allah (SWT) in the Qur’an.

Coming to the social rights given in Islam, to a daughter - Islam prohibits, female infanticide - The killing of female children is forbidden in Islam

It is mentioned in Surah Taqveem, Ch. 81, Verse No. 8 and 9, ‘when the female child is buried alive and when she questions you, for what crime was she killed’.

Not only female infanticide has been prohibited, all sorts of infanticides has been prohibited in Islam, whether it be a male child or a female child.

It is mention in the Qur’an in Surah A’nam Ch.6, Verse No.151 that, ‘Kill not your children for want of sustenance for it is Allah that will provide sustenance for you and for children’

In the pre-Islamic Arabia, whenever a female child was born mostly she was buried alive. Alhamdullillah, after the spread of Islam this evil practice has been discontinued.

In Islam, a daughter should be brought up correctly

And according to a Hadith in ‘Ahmed’, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) he said ‘Anyone who brings up two daughters properly, they will be like this to me on the day of judgment’ – Means, ‘will be very close to me on the day of judgment’

And there’s another Hadith which says, that ‘Anyone who up brings 2 daughters properly and takes good care and brings them up with love and affection, they will enter Paradise’

According to Surah Nisa, Ch.4, Verse No.19, it says… ‘You are prohibited to inherit women against their will’ - Means, to marry the permission of both the parties are required.

O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and
Allah makes therein much good.

The consent of both the male and the female is required in marriage.

The only thing above respect to Mother, is the worship of Allah (SWT) - It is mentioned in Ch.17, Verse No.28-29

It says that… ‘Allah has ordained for you - that Allah has ordained for you, that you worship none but Him, and to be kind to our parents


Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No. 1 says… ‘Respect the womb that bore you’

Now let us analyze - now let us analyze the Educational rights given to the women in Islam

The first 5 verses which were revealed of the Qur’an were from Surah Alaq, or Surah Iqra, Ch. 96, Verse No. 1 to 5 which says -

‘Read, recite or proclaim in the name of thy lord, (Arabic…) Who has created the human beings from a congealed clot of blood, a leech like substance
Read, thy Lord is most bountiful

Who has taught the use of the pen

Who has taught the human beings that which he knew-not’.

The first guidance given in the Qur’an Shareef to the humankind was not to pray, was not to fast, was not to give charity - It was read - Islam pays
utmost importance to education.

The Prophet ordained the parents, the father and the mother, to see to it that they gave Religious education to their daughter

And after a lady married, it was the duty of the husband to pro¬vide her with the Religious education

If he couldn’t do it him¬self, and if she wanted, he should allow her to go somewhere else to acquire the education

According to Sahih Bukhari, the women were very enthusiastic to acquire knowledge, and they once told the Prophet… ‘You are usually surrounded by men - why do not you give us one particular day so that we too can ask you questions’ - And the Prophet agreed.

Beside he himself going, he sent many other of his Sahabas to the women, to give them education

We have examples of several Muslim women who are scholars
And the best example is of Hazrat Ayaisha (may Allah be pleased with her), who was the daughter of Hazrat Abu baker, the first Khalifa of Islam, (may Allah be pleased with him), and the wife of our beloved Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him)

She gave guidance even to the Sahabas and to the Khalifas - One of her
famous student Urwah-Ibn-Zubair

She said that… ‘I have not seen a greater scholar than Ayaisha in the field of learning of the Qur’an, in obligatory duties, in lawful and unlawful matters, in literature and poetry, in Arab history’

She was not only expert in the Religious field, she had profound knowledge of medicine - Whenever the foreign delegates came to the Prophet and discussed, she used to memorize the remedies

She was well versed in the field of math, and many times the companions came to her to ask problems of ‘Mirath’ that is, ‘Inheritance’ - And how much share could be divide how much share should be given to the each individual
She has - she is said to have guided all the four Khalifas, including the companions.

And she also gave guidance, many a times to Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) and she herself has narrated 2210 Hadiths.

According to AbuUmm... according to Abu Moosa, who was a famous Jurist, he said that… ‘Whenever we companions had lack of knowledge on a matter, we went to - we went to - Hazrat Ayaisha (May Allah be pleased with her), and definitely she had knowledge about it’.

She is said to have taught more than 88 scholars - In short, she was a scholar of the scholars.

Another example is Umme - Salma (may Allah be pleased with her) who was the wife of the beloved Prophet

According to Ibn Hajar… ‘She has taught 32 differ¬ent scholars’.

There are several examples - Fatima-Binte-Kais, she is said to have a discussion on Fiqh, for a full day with Hazrat Ayaisha and Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with them both), and still they could not prove her wrong
According to Imam an Nauvi, ‘she migrated in the early days and she had profound knowledge’

Other examples like Umme Salim, who was the mother of Anas - she is said to be very well versed in the field of Dawah.

Other examples are Saeeda Nafisa, who was the grand daughter of Hasan and she also said to have taught Imam Shafi, who was the founder of the one of schools of thought.

There are several examples - Even Umme-Ad-darda, who was the wife of Abul -Ad-darda, she is said be an expert in science

In Islam a woman is allowed to give witness

Imagine, Islam gave right to a woman to be a witness, 14 centuries ago
Islam gives utmost importance to the chastity of the woman
When a lady marries, she normally adopts the name of her husband
In Islam she has the option of either keeping her husband’s name, either adopting the name of the husband, or maintain¬ing her maiden name.

Islam gives women the right to vote

If you read Surah Al Mumtahina, Ch.60, Verse No.12, it says that… ‘O Prophet when the believing women come to thee with an oath of fealty’.
Here, the Arabic word is ‘Bayan’ - And ‘Bayan’ means much more than our modern, present day elec¬tion, - because Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him), he was not only the messenger of Allah, but he was also the head of the state

And women came to the Prophet and they agreed with him being the head of the state.

Women can even take part in law making

And according to the famous Hadith in which Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him), he was discussing with the Sahabas, and considering putting an upper limit on the ‘Meher ’, since young men were discouraged from getting married - a lady from the back seat she objected and said When the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa Ch.4, Verse No.20 that… ‘you can even give a heap of treasure, a heap of gold in ‘Meher’, when Qur’an puts no limit on ‘Meher’, who is Umar to put a limit (may Allah be pleased with him)
And immediately Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) he said… ‘Umar is wrong and the lady is right’

Recap:

Rights of Women in Islam (Bear in mind these rights were given to them 1,400 years ago while, these rights have become part of International law just recently- meaning in the last century or so.)

1. Right to education.
2. Right to inheritance.
3. Right of retain her identity.
4. Right to marriage consent.
5. Right of divorce.
6. Right to work.
7. Right of maintenance and protection.
8. Right to vote.
9. Right to witness.
10. Right to contribute in law making.

Islam is all about your rights, your limitations and your obligations. Thus there are certain issues where men enjoins a certain degree of advantage over women due to greater resposnibilites and there are cases where women enjoys rights over men due to greater responsibilties. In 80% of the cases rights are identical while in other 20% they are equal but not identical.

Note: Isnt it interesting, that the charge laid against Islam is that it does not give equal rights to women, but the vast majority (75%) of the converts to Islam are women i.e. for every one man that converts to Islam, three women converts. I’ll move onto the next topic with this spear of thought.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
Rights of Non – Muslims under Islamic Law:

Rights of Non – Muslims under Islamic Law:

Freedom of conscience:

There are about 20 verses in the Quran that refer to apostacy in Islam. There is no reference to the death penalty or any other punishment in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an. some of these verses are;

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. (3:90)

Probably the most important verses is 4:137, which states; how can a person beleive and disbelieve and than believe and than reject faith if penality is death.

Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. (4:137)

Other verses regarding freedom of conscience in Quran are;

[And say [O Muhammad]: 'The truth [has now come] you're your Sustainer: let, then, him or her who wills, believe in it, and let him or her who wills, reject it.] (Al-Kahf 18:29)

[There shall be no coercion in matters of faith.] (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; your task is only to exhort. You can not compel them [to believe].] (Al-Ghashiyah 88:21-22)

[Thus, [O Prophet,] if they argue with you, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and [so have] all who follow me' – and ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as the unlettered people, 'Have you [too] surrendered yourselves unto Him?' And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, your duty is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

Hadiths against penality;

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to the Apostle of Allah for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) "cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good." (Sahih Al-Bukhari., Vol.9, hadith 316)


Conclusion:

Since Islam is a way of life and Muslims are considered as a nation, what these scholars argue is that when if a person leaves Islam, he has to explan what is on his mind, that he will not get up in the middle of the night and kill all the Muslims. However he has the freedom of conscience, however if he decides to fight back or poses some sort of threat to the Islamic state, than the punishment is death. Punishment for Treason in many countries is capital punishment.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
Proof offered by Islam


Taken from lecture By Dr Gary Miller - Basis for Muslim Belief:


Dilemma of Applying Reason

Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks "Why?" If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know, "Why?" When you explain it is sharp, he asks "Why?" And so you explain, "in order to cut fruit," and he asks, "Why?" And so it goes. It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first to set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?". We have to decide on that first. What happens though is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards of proof and they take a look at their subjects and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which they say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.

Setting Standards

The key to avoiding an endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine. In particular I will apply this to the Qur'an. Ask a thoughtful Christian why he is a Christian, and he will usually reply, "The miracle of the Resurrection." The basis for his belief being that about two thousand years ago a man died and he was raised from the dead. That is his miracle, his "touchstone", because all else depends on that. Ask a Muslim, "Well, what is your miracle? Why are you a Muslim? Where is your miracle?" and the Muslim can go over and take his miracle off the shelf and hand it over to you because his miracle is still with us today. It is the Qur'an; it is his "touchstone".

Sign of God


While all the prophets have their signs, Moses had the competition with the magicians and the Pharaoh, Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead and so on, one Sign was given to the last of the prophets. According to the Muslims, this is the Qur'an. And this one Sign is still with us. Does not that after all seem fair, that if Prophethood is to end that the last prophet should bring something that stays with us so that, in fact, a Muslim who takes his religion seriously suffers no disadvantage to Muslims who lived fourteen centuries ago? Those people who kept company with the Prophet had access to no more of the necessary information than we have today. They had the Qur'an. That was the sign for them. It is still a sign to us today, the same miracle. Well, let us test the Qur'an. Suppose that if I say to a man, "I know your father." Probably he is going to examine the situation and see if it seems likely that I have met his father. If he is not convinced, he will start asking me questions like: "You know my father, you say, is he a tall man? Does he have curly hair? Does he wear glasses?," and so on. If 1 keep giving him the right answers to all these questions, pretty soon he is going to be convinced. "Well, I guess this man did meet my father like he said." You see the method.

The Big Bang Theory


Here in the Qur'an we have a book which claims that its author is one who was present at the beginning of the universe, at the beginning of life. So, we have a right to address that author and say, "Well, tell me something prove to me that you were there when the world began, when life began." The Qur'an gives us an interesting statement. It reads:

Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe? (21:30).

There are three key points here. First of all, it is the disbelievers who are mentioned as being those who would see that the heavens and the earth were one piece and then parted and would see that all life came to be made from water. As it happens, the universally accepted theory of the origin of the universe is now the Big Bang theory. It maintains that at one time all of the heavens and the earth were one piece, the monoblock as it is called. At a particular point in time, this "monoblock" burst and it continues to expand. This gives us the universe we have today. This was a recent discovery, a recent confirmation.

The Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded only a few years ago to those who confirmed the Big Bang origin of the universe. It was only about two hundred years ago that Leeuwenhoek and others perfected the microscope and discovered for the first time that living cells are composed of about eighty percent water. Those Nobel prize winners and the Dutchman who invented the microscope were not Muslims. And yet they confirmed the vital statement that at one time the universe was one piece, that life was made from water, just as this verse says:

"Have not the disbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were one piece and We parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will They not then believe?" (21:30).


Well, this sounds like an answer to the question we started with when we ask the author. "Tell me something that shows me you were present when the universe began, when life began?"

Taking a Stand


Everyone must be committed to something. You have to put your foot down some place. It is impossible to be neutral at all times. There has to be a point of reference in the life of any thinking individual. You have to take a stand somewhere. The question, of course, is to put your foot down in the right place. Since there is no such thing as a proof of a proof of a proof and so on, in order to find the right place to put one’s foot down, to take a stand, we have to search and find that place and it is by a method that I hope to illustrate here.

It is a question of finding a point of convergence. You see, we search for truth in many places and we begin to know that we are succeeding in finding the truth if all our different paths start to converge; they start to come together at the same point.

If we are examining a book, looking for evidence of divine origin, and we are led to Islam, this is one path. If at the same time, we are examining the words of all those who were called prophets and we find ourselves led to Islam, we have a firmly grounded basis for belief We started looking for truth in two different places and found ourselves going down the path headed for the same destination.

No one ever proves all things. We have to stop at some point being satisfied with our standards as I have mentioned earlier. The point is, in order to take a stand and to be sure it is in the right place, we want to examine all the evidence around us and see where does it lead us and anticipate this point of convergence; to say it looks like all things are pointing to this place. We go to that place and then look at the data around us to see if it fits into place. Does it now make sense? Are we standing is on right place?

The Expanding Heavens

Let me first show more of our examination of the Qur'an, and then an examination of some words of prophets to find this point of convergence. In chapter fifty one, verse forty seven, it is mentioned that the heavens are expanding. As I mentioned earlier, this is in connection with the "Big Bang" origin of the universe, as it is usually called, and it was in 1973 that the Nobel Prize was awarded to three men who were confirming that, after all, the universe is expanding.

The comments of Muslims over the centuries on this verse which speaks of the heavens doing exactly that is very interesting. The wisest among them had stated that the words are very dear, that the heavens are expanding, but they could not imagine how that could be so. But they were content to leave the words as they were, to say: "Allah knows best."

The City of Iram

The Qur'an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of Iram has been unknown to history, so unknown that even some Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur'an as being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a city.

In 1973 the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay tablets ever assembled. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus contains more day tablets that are more than four thousand years old than all the other tablets combined from all the other sites.

Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National Geographic of December 1978 (pp.730- , esp. p.736) which confirms that in those tablets the city of Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the people of Iram. So here in 1973, comes confirmation of the fact that, after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it was. How did it find its way into the Qur'an, we might ask?

Those Muslims, who may have offered their comments, trying to explain away this reference that they were uncomfortable with, were outsmarted by the author of the Qur'an. They are those who would outsmart the author of the Qur'an They would attempt it. Primarily, their activity would involve trying to produce the evidence that the author of this book had a primitive understanding of the world around us.

The Smallest Matter


For example, there is a word which is translated today usually in Arabic as zarrah. This is usually translated as "atom" and it is usually thought of in Arabic as being the smallest item available at one time. Perhaps the Arabs thought it was an ant or a grain of dust. Today the word is usually translated as "atom".

Those who would outsmart the author of the Qur'an have insisted that, well, the atom is not after all the smallest piece of matter because in this century it has been discovered that even the atom is made of still smaller pieces of matter. Is it then possible to outsmart the author who chose to use this word? Well, there is an interesting verse, in chapter ten, verse sixty one, which speaks of items the size of a zarrah, (atom) or smaller. There is no possibility that on this subject someone is going to say a new discovery has outdated the words of the Qur'an on the issue of the size of matter or the ultimate particles. The verse talks about items the size of a zarrah (atom) or smaller.

Forgiveness

Speaking of outsmarting the author of the Qur'an, the Islamic point of view is that when a man embraces Islam, his past is forgiven from the very beginning. This has been the invitation to Islam: come to Islam and all is forgiven from the past.
But consider this. There is only one enemy of Muhammad, peace be upon him, who is mentioned by name in the Qur'an: one Abu Lahab. In a short chapter of this book, he is condemned to punishment for his sins.

As it happens, the man himself was alive for many years after this revelation. He could therefore have finished Islam very easily. He needed only to go to the Muslims to announce his conversion. They had in their hands the revelation which said that this man is doomed to punishment. He could have gone to the Muslims and say- "I accept Islam, am I forgiven or not?"

He could have confused them so much as to finish this small movement because he would have been pointing out to them that they were now in confusion. The policy was instant forgiveness of the past but their own revealed scripture announced that he was not forgiven. As it was, Abu Lahab died without accepting Islam.

Predictions


In fact, the Qur'an confidently predicted a number of things only a few years before they came to pass. The fall of the Persian empire, for example, was predicted in spite of the fact that it had just suffered a serious military reverse. The evidence was all to the contrary. But in the chapter entitled Rom, the fall of the Persian Empire who were recently victors over the Romans was predicted.

When all the Muslims in the world could meet in one room, the revelations were already discussing their future successes. In confidence, they were planning for the day when they would be in charge of the city where they were forced at that time to hide for their very lives.

Evidence of Divine Origin

Some people may like to find any number of things in the Qur'an. But an honest method in examining this book, looking for evidence of the Divine origin, is to take things at their value, to look for things that are dear and to look in those places where we are invited to look. Remember the passage that I quoted earlier "Have not the disbelievers seen..." This a common phrase of the Qur’an: "0 Man, Have you not seen." The invitation is to examine the evidence in these places. We are doing the sensible thing if we examine the words used to look for the doubted meaning and to find evidence of the Divine origin. Each one of us is an expert on something. One does not have to have a degree in a particular subject to decide that now, "I can take my expertise to the Qur'an and see what I can find." We all know something for sure from our own experience and life. I heard a story, several years ago in Toronto, of a man who was given the Qur'an to read. The man was a member of the merchant marines who spent his life on the sea. When he read a verse in the Qur'an describing the waves on the ocean, "waves within waves and the darkness between," he was surprised because the description was just what he knew the situation to be. When he returned the Qur'an to the man who gave it to him to read, he asked him (because he was completely ignorant of the origins of Islam): "This Muhammad was he a sailor?" Well, of course, he was quite surprised to know that the man spent his life in the desert. So he had to ask himself. "From where did he get this knowledge of what looks like on a stormy sea?"

We all know something that we can be confident of, and if we can turn to the Qur'an to read what it says about this subject, we are asking for confirmation of our belief in the Divine origin of the book.

The Two Phenomena

A friend of mine from the University of Toronto had the experience of dealing with a man who was doing his doctorate in psychology. He chose as his subject: "The Efficiency of Group Discussion".

He suggested a number of criteria as to what constitutes an efficient discussion. He graphed the process; that is, he achieved a measure of the efficiency of all groups in their discussions according to an index by his system. On his graph he indicated the progress made by the discussion groups of various sizes.

The interesting thing that happened which he did not expect to find when he began his project was that, while there were some differences between the size of any given group and how well they did in discussions, he was surprised to find that groups of two were completely off his scale. In other words, when two people sit down to discuss something; they were so much more efficient than any other size of group that it went completely off his scale of measurement.

When my friend heard about this, something went on at the back of his mind. My friend, being a Muslim, thought there was something familiar here about this idea. The psychology researcher was not a Muslim. He was debating with himself on changing the topic of his thesis. Should he call it "Ihe Phenomenon of Two" or "The Two Phenomena"? He was so surprised at his discovery.

Meanwhile, my friend found that there is a verse in the Qur'an, and he found it for himself on the same night, which speaks on discussions and the size of groups and how efficient they are. And maybe we should not be surprised to find that it is the groups that are two in numbers that do the best in achieving results. The verse in the Qur'an reads, concerning discussion groups, that when discussing the Qur'an one should sit alone and reflect on its meaning or discuss it in groups of two.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
Use and Mention of Words

For myself, as I said everyone knows something for sure or has an interest and experience in life; my interest is in mathematics and logic. There is a verse in the Qur'an which says:

"This is a scripture whose verses are perfected and then expounded." (11:1)

Which tells me that there are no wasted words in the Qur'an; that each verse is perfected and then it is explained. It could not be in a better form. One could not use fewer words to say the same thing or if one uses more words one would only be adding superfluous information.

This directed my attention to a particular mathematical subject, a logical subject, and I examined the Quran to see if I could find something of what I knew to be the case.

A revolution in logic has occurred in the last one hundred years, primarily over the difference between use and mention of words. A structure of logic seemed to be in danger of collapsing about a hundred years ago because it came to the attention of the people who studied these matters that the structure was not quite sound. The issue involved "self-reference" and the use and the mention of words which I will explain briefly.

Aristotle’s law of the "excluded middle" was the statement that every statement is either true or false. About a hundred years ago, somebody pointed out that the law of the excluded middle is a statement and is therefore not a law after all. It could just as well be false as well as true.

This was a tangled knot for the logicians to untie until they came to understand the difference between the use and the mention of a word.

When we use a word, we consider its meaning. When we mention a word we are discussing the word itself. If I say Toronto is a large city, I mean Toronto, that place, is a large city. If I say Toronto has seven letters, I am talking about the word "Toronto". In the first case I used the word and in the second I mentioned the word. You see the distinction.

Jesus and Adam


Connecting these ideas and the idea that the Qur'an is composed of verses that are perfected and then expounded for us, consider the verse which says:

"The likeness of Jesus before Allah is as the likeness of Adam." (3:59)

It is very clear that what we have in this statement is an equation. This verse goes on to explain how that is true because they both came under unusual circumstances rather than having a mother and a father in the usual human reproductive way. But more than that, 1 got to consider the use of the mention of words.

The words are used clearly enough. Jesus is like Adam and by Jesus and Adam, we mean those two men. But what about the mention of the words? Was the author aware of the fact that if we were considering the words as words in themselves, this sentence also reads that "Jesus" is somehow like "Adam". Well, they are not spelt with the same letters; how can they be alike in this revelation? The only answer came to me fairly quickly and I took a look at the index of the Qur'an.

The index of the Qur'an has been made available only since 1945. This book was the result of years of work by a man and his students who assembled a book which lists every word in the Qur'an and where it can be found.

So, when we look up the word Isa (Jesus), we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. When we look up Adam, we find it in the Qur'an twenty-five times. The point is that they are very much alike in this book. They are equated. So, following up on this idea, I continued to examine the index looking for every case where something was set up as an equation, where the likeness of something was said to be the likeness of some other thing. And in every case, it works. You have for example a verse which reads:

"The likeness of those who reject our signs is as the likeness of the dog." (7:176)

Well, the phrase in Arabic for "the people who reject our signs" could be found in the Qur'an exactly five times. And so is the Arabic word for "the dog" (al-kalb). And there are several instances of exactly the same occurrence.

It was some months after I found this for myself that a friend of mine, who is continuing this investigation with me, made a suggestion that there are also some places in the Qur'an where one thing is said to be not like another thing.

As soon as he mentioned this up to me, we both went for the index and had a quick look at several places where one thing is said to be not like another thing and counted their occurrence in the Quran. We were surprised and maybe should not have been to find that, after all, they do not match up. But an interesting thing does happen. For example, the Qur'an makes it very clear in the verse that trade is not like interest. The two words will be found six times for one and seven for the other. And so it is in every other case.

When one thing is said to be not like another, they occur for a difference of one time. It would be five of one and four of the other, or seven of one and eight of another.

Good and Evil

There is one interesting verse which, I felt, spoke directly to me from right off the page. It mentions two words in Arabic, al-khabeeth (the evil), and al-taib (the good). The verse reads:

"Say, the evil and the good are not comparable, even though the abundance of evil will surprise you. So be mindful of your duty to Allah, 0 Man of understanding, that you may succeed." (5:100)

Well, I had a look at those two words in Arabic, the evil and the good, and found it in the Qur'an that they both occur seven times. Yet the verse here is saying that they are not comparable. I should not expect to find that they occur the same number of times. But what does the rest of this verse say?

"The evil and the good are not comparable. The abundance of the evil will surprise you" and it did for there were too many of them. But it continues:

"So be mindful of your duty to Allah, 0 Man of understanding that you may succeed."

So press on. Use your understanding and you will succeed. That is what the verse said to me. Well, I found the answer in one verse further on where it reads:

"Allah separates the evil from the good. The evil He piles one on top of the other, heaping them all together." (8:37)

Here is the solution to the difficulty. While we have seven occurrences of al-khabeeth (the evil) which matches up with the occurrences of al-taib (the good), according to the principle of this verse, evil is separated from good and is piled one on top of the other and heaped all together. We do not count them as seven separate instances.

Occurrence of Words

A favourite difficulty, or supposed difficulty, which critics like to cite or have cited in the past years concerning the Qur’an, is that, apparently to their thinking, the author of this book was ignorant because he advised the Muslims to follow the lunar year instead of the solar year. The critics say the author was unaware of the difference in the length of years that if one follows twelve lunar months one loses eleven days every year.
The author of the Qur'an was well aware of the distinction between the length of the solar year and the lunar year. In chapter eighteen, verse nine it mentions three-hundred years and gives their equivalent as three-hundred and nine years. As it happens, three-hundred solar years is equal to three-hundred and nine lunar years.

Let us go back to my original scheme of the occurrence of words in the Qur'an. The Arabic word for "month", shahar, will be found twelve times in the Qur'an. There are twelve months in a year. If we find twelve months, how many days should we expect to find? The word in Arabic is yaum, and as it happens you will find that the word occurs three-hundred and sixty-five times in the Qur'an.

As a matter of fact, the original issue which had me interested in looking up the occurrence of months and days was this distinction between the solar year and the lunar year. Well, for twenty-five centuries it has been known that the relative positions of the sun, moon and earth coincide every nineteen years. This was discovered by a Greek by the name of Meton, and it is called the Metonic cycle. Knowing this, I looked again to the index for the word "year", sanah, and found, sure enough, that it occurs, in the Qur'an nineteen times.

Perfect Balance of Words

Now, what is the point of this perfect balance of words? For myself, it shows the author was well aware of the distinction between using words and mentioning words, a fine logical point. But more than that, it indicates the preservation of this book.

After giving a lecture on the subject of the Qur'an, I touched on some of these subjects and a questionnaire from the audience afterwards said: "How do we know we still have the original Qur'an. Maybe pieces of it have been lost or extra parts been added?" I pointed out to him that we had pretty well covered that point because since these items, the perfect balance of words in the Qur'an, have come to light only in this generation, anybody who would have lost the portion of the book, hidden some of it or added some of their own would have been unaware of this carefully hidden code in the book. They would have destroyed this perfect balance.

It is interesting to note too that, well, such a thing might be possible to organise today by the use of a computer to coordinate all words so that whatever thought you might have as to a meaning of a sentence or however you might construe an equation out of a sentence, you could check for yourself and the book will always have the balance of words.

If that were possible today, if it were possible fourteen centuries ago, why would it be done and then left hidden and never drawn to the attention of those who first saw this book? Why it would be left with the hope of the author who contrive this, that maybe in many centuries someone will discover it and have a nice surprise? It is a scheme that does not make sense.

Best Explanation


We are told in the Quran that no questionnaire will come to the Muslims with the question for which a good answer has not been provided, and the best explanation for whatever his question. This verse says:
"For everything they say we are given something to go back to them and reply." (25:33)

We looked again to the index of the Qur'an and we found that the word, qalu (they say), is found three-hundred and thirty-two times. Now, what would be the natural counterpart? The Arabic word, qul, which is the command "say" and you will find at the index it also occurs three-hundred and thirty-two times.

Origin of the Qur'an


An interesting feature of the Qur'an is that it replies to its critics as to its origin. That is, no one has yet come up with a suggestion as to where this book came from which is not commented on within the book itself.

In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopaedia, under the heading Quran mentions that over the centuries there had been many theories as to where this book came from. Their conclusion: today, no sensible person believes any of these theories. This leaves the Christians in some difficulty. You see, all the theories suggested so far, according to this encyclopaedia, are not really acceptable to anyone sensible today. They are too fantastic.

Where did the book come from? Those who have not really examined the Qur'an usually dismissed it as being, as they say, a collection of proverbs or aphorisms, sayings that one man used to announce from time to time. They imagined that there was a man who, from time to time during the day, will think of some witty little sayings and spit it out and those around him will quickly write it down and eventually these were all collected and became the Qur'an.

Those who read the Qur'an will find that it is not anything like that at all. The collection of things said by the Prophet is the subject and the content of the Hadith. But the subjects and contents of the Qur'an are all in a form of a composition and explanation. I cite as an example the chapter, Yusuf, which is an entire story in great detail about one particular episode or one portion of the life of one man. It is a composition.

It is for this reason that virtually all those who have actually examined the Qur'an usually refer to it as being the product of the authorship as attributed to Muhammad and his "co-adjudicators". These were supposed to be people who would sit, with him and composed the Qur'an. You see, they imagined that the Qur'an was composed by a committee.

They acknowledged that there was too much information and it was too well composed for one man to have assembled. So, they imagined that a committee of men used to meet regularly, brought their various sources of information, composed something and then handed to this man and told him, "Go to the people tomorrow, this is your revelation." In other words, it was a fraud concocted by a group of people. But what do we know about fraud? The Qur'an reminds us as it says:

"Say, now the truth has come, and falsehood neither invents anything nor restores anything." (34:49).

It is hard to translate it into English precisely, but what this verse is telling us is that falsehood is not the source of a new thing. A new and truthful thing cannot come from falsehood and falsehood does not restore, to our minds, the facts. Truth is in agreement with facts. Falsehood is something else. So, falsehood is empty. If something is born in fraud, it will never bring us new information. It will never endure; it will only collapse over a period of time.

Challenge

Another interesting verse is a challenge which is addressed to those non-believers. It reads:

"Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies?" (4:82)

Here is a challenge to the reader. If you think you have an explanation where this book came from, have another look at the book. Surely you will be able to uncover some inconsistencies to support your case.

Imagine a student submitting a term paper or a final exam and then writing at the bottom of the page a note to his teacher "You will find no mistakes in this paper. There are no mistakes on this exam." Can you imagine the teacher letting that rest? The teacher would probably not sleep until uncovering some inconsistency after a challenge like that. It is not the way human beings speak. They do not offer challenges like that. But here we have it in the Qur'an, a direct challenge saying. "If you have a better idea as to where this book came from, here’s all you need to do. Find some inconsistencies."

There are critics who make the attempt, critics who try to say the Qur'an contains inconsistencies. A publication that came to my attention recently suggested that the Quran was contradictory on the subject of marriage, because in one place, it says: "Don’t marry more than one wife unless you can provide for them all," and in another place it says: "Don’t marry more than four." They see this as a contradiction. What they have is a counter-distinction. In one case, the qualification for marrying more than one has been given. In the other case, a limitation on how many may be married is given. There is no contradiction.

Critics are too quick to grab hold of something, give it an interpretation, and then offer it as an excuse to escape the reality of this document.

For critics who would attack the Qur'an and insist it contains mistakes, we can use the same method as in our reply to Christians who claim that Jesus is on record as claiming to be equal to God. Remember the three categories of evidence offered. The evidence offered was insufficient, ambiguous or impossible.

You see, if someone cites a verse from the Qur'an, trying to show that it is a mistake, we only need to show that the verse cited is insufficient to establish that there is a mistake or we need to show that the verse cited has other meanings than the one given by the critic or we can demonstrate that the verse cited cannot possibly have the interpretation which the critic is giving it. It will always fall into one of these three categories.

Attributing to the Devil

I had the experience, on one occasion, describing some of the contents in the Qur'an to a man who did not know the book I was talking about. He sat next to me, with the cover turned over. I just told him about the book, what it contained and told him it was not the Bible. His conclusion was, the book was miraculous. This man was a minister in a Christian Church. He said, "Yes, that book could not possibly have originated with the man and therefore it must come from the devil, because it's not the Bible."

The Qur'an comments on this suggestion in chapter twenty-six, verse two-hundred and eleven as to those who would suggest that the book came from the devil. It points out that it does not quite suit him, does it? Is this how the devil misleads people? He tells them, worship none but God; he insists that they fast, that they practice charity. Is this how the devil misleads people?

Compare the attitude of someone like this, to the attitude of the Jews who knew Jesus and opposed him until the very end. There is an episode reported in the Bible where Jesus raised a man from the dead, one Lazarus, who had been dead for four days. When Lazarus came out of the tomb, alive again, those Jews who were watching what did they do? Did they suddenly say that this man is a true prophet and become believers? No, the Bible says they immediately discussed among themselves that "since this man is working on his signs soon everyone will believe in him. We’ve got to find a way to kill him," and they attributed his miraculous powers to the devil. He raised that man by the power of the devil.

Now, the Christians who read that episode will feel very sorry for those Jews who had clear evidence right before their very eyes and attributed the miracles to the devil. Does it not appear that they may be doing the same thing when we illustrate what we have in the Qur'an and their final excuse is only. "It originated with the devil."

A Different Story

There are those who insist that the Qur'an was copied, that it originated in Christian and Jewish sources. As a matter of fact, a book published in recent years called Worshipping the Wrong God has stated, as though it were a fact, that after the first revelation of the Qur'an came to Muhammad, peace be upon him, that his wife died and so he quickly married a Jew and a Christian, and this is where he drew the rest of his sources for his book.

Well, they have the facts partly right. It was ten years after the first revelation of the Qur'an that his wife died, and it was another ten years after that when the Qur'an was virtually completed that he married a Jew and a Christian.

Did he copy from Jewish and Christian sources? In the Qur'an, the ruler of Egypt who opposed Moses is known as Fir'aun, not Pharaoh. The Jews and Christians have always said "Pharaoh". It is easy for an Arab to say "Pharaoh". But in the Qur'an, it is Fir'aun, with an "n". Why? Surely the Jews and the Christians who surrounded the Muslim community must have teased them about that and said: "You’ve got the word wrong. It’s "Pharaoh" and not Fir'aun." But they insisted on it and it continues that way in the Qur'an, Fir'aun.

As it happens, the historical writings of Herodotus, the Greek historian, oldest to this day, and Herodotus comments on the ruler of Egypt, being in his day and in the centuries before him, one man who went by the title of Fir'aun.

Did the book copy from the Christian sources? The Qur'an insists that Jesus was not crucified, that this was only an illusion, but that the Jews who thought they crucified Jesus were mistaken because it was not really so. Christians would have no part of that. As it happens, the idea that Jesus was not really crucified is really very ancient and can be traced back to the first century. But Christians who believed that were eliminated as heretics within the first two-hundred years after the time of Jesus and they were not teaching this doctrine anywhere around the Arabian Peninsula fourteen centuries ago.

Could the author of the Qur'an have been copying from Christian sources when he says that Jesus spoke to man as a babe (3:46) and in later life? The Arabic word used indicates that he was still speaking to man and teaching to them in his forties. The Christians have always maintained that Jesus was gone by the time he was thirty-three. It indicates that there could have been no copying. In fad, a man would have to be stubborn and insists on the points as explained in the Qur'an in the face of Christian opposition who would have said: "No! No! It wasn’t like that. We tell the story differently."

House Cleaning

Now we go to the words of the prophets themselves, which represent another path that leads to Islam. In the Persian scriptures, which have been around for thousands of years, we read:

"When the Persians should sir& so low in morality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones will be overpowered. The house which was built and in which many idols have been placed will be purged of idols and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of the Farsi, Entaus and Balkh, and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers." (Desature no.14)

The Muslims recognise this very quickly because the Ka"abah, the building which all Muslims face in prayers everyday, was at one time filled with idols and it was part of the mission of Muhammad, peace be upon him, to purge the house of idols. They were destroyed and the house sits there cleansed of idols till today. It was in the next generation, after the time of the Prophet that the wise men of Persia and others did join his followers.

A Prophet like Moses

In the Bible, in Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that He would raise up a prophet, from among the brothers of the Israelites, like Moses.

Christians wish to apply this to Jesus, to say he was the prophet like Moses. It is uncomfortable for them to recognise, however, that Jesus was not very much like Moses and Jesus had no father, no wife, no children; he did not die of old age, and he did not lead a nation; all these things Moses had or did. But they say, well, Jesus will return; he will return as a victorious person, and so he will be more like Moses. Do they really expect he will return to also acquire a father and a wife and children and then die of old age? Not usually. Moreover, Jesus was an Israelite. The passage of scripture says that this prophet that was foretold would be raised up among the brothers of the Israelites, not from the Israelites.

In the third chapter of Acts, the disciple Peter speaks to a crowd of people and explains that Jesus has been taken up and he is in heaven. He will remain in Heaven and he cannot return until all the things that were promised by God come to pass. So what are we still waiting for, does he tell the crowd? He quotes this very saying of Moses, saying.

"For God will raise up a prophet from among the brothers of the Israelites like Moses..."

The point is very clear. Christians like to see this prophet as being Jesus. But read carefully Acts chapter three, what it says is that Jesus awaits a return. He cannot return until the fulfilment of this prophecy that another prophet has to come. Jesus spoke of it himself and the words survived, just barely, but they survived in the Bible. Jesus spoke of God sending another "Paraclete".

Paraclete

There is a lot of argument over the meaning of this word "Paraclete". For now we can leave that aside. What is a "Paraclete"? It does not matter. The first letter of John shows that Jesus was a "Paraclete". He is called a "Paraclete" and we have Jesus promising another "Paraclete" is going to be sent.

We lose a lot by this word "another" in English because it is ambiguous. If someone’s car breaks down, and it is a Toyota, and I say, "I'II go and get you another car," maybe I mean, "I'II go and get you another Toyota because this one you have is broken," or maybe I mean, "Forget Toyota, they're no good; I'II go and get you a Datsun." It is an ambiguous word.

But the Greeks had a word for it. When they meant "another" of the same kind, they said aloes. When they meant another of a different kind, they said heteroes. The important thing here is that, when Jesus, who was himself a Paraclete, said "God will send you another Paraclete" he used the word aloes, not heteroes.

Christians want to say that this other "Paraclete" that has been sent was different from Jesus. It was not a man, it was a spirit. What Jesus said was: "God will send you another one like me, another man." Muslims believe that Muhammad is the fulfilment of this prophecy by Jesus. The Qur'an says that this man is mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians (see 7:157).

Christians came to expect the return of Jesus because of a Jewish misunderstanding. "Messiah" and "Son of Man" have been given special significance by the Jews, even though many people were called by this same name as in the Bible. The Jews came to expect a victorious leader. When Jesus did not turn out to be quite what many expected, they hatched the idea that he would return some day and fulfill all these prophecies.

Followers of Jesus

Suppose that someone observed Jesus two-thousand years ago, and he left this planet, or he went to sleep for two-thousand years and returned today to look for the followers of Jesus, who would he find? Who would he recognise? Christians? I conclude with just this food for thought: the Bible says very clearly that Jesus used to fast. Do Christians fast? Muslims fast; it is obligatory one month every year. The Bible says that Jesus prayed by touching his forehead to the ground. Do Christians pray in this manner? Muslims do. It is characteristic of their prayer and no one on earth is probably ignorant of that fact.

According to Jesus, he told his disciples to greet one another with the expression, "Peace be with you." Do the Christians do that? Muslims do, universally, whether they speak Arabic or not. The greeting for one to another is Assalamu'alaikum (peace be with you).

The brother of Jesus in the Book of James, stated that no man should suggest what he is about to do or highlight his plans for the next few days in anyway without adding the phrase "if God wills." Do not say "I will go here and there, do this and that" without adding the phrase "if God wills." Do Christians do that? Muslims do, whether they speak Arabic or not. If they so much as suggest they are going downtown to pick up some groceries, they will add, Insha-Allah, which in Arabic means, "If God wills."

These conclude my thoughts on this subject. May Allah guide us always closer to the truth!


External Links:


http://mydeviant.com/miller/gary_miller.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh

The term pharaoh"الفرعون" ultimately was derived from a compound word represented as pr-`3, used only in larger phrases such as smr pr-`3 'Courtier of the High House', with specific reference to the buildings of the court or palace itself.[3]

Arabic - Pharaon -- With an N



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars

The Qur'an, chapter 89 (Al-Fajr), verse 6 to 13: “ [6] Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with A'ad, [7] (The people of) Iram, possessors of lofty buildings, [8] The like of which were not created in the (other) cities, [9] And (with) Thamud, who hewed out the rocks in the valley, [10] And (with) Firon (Pharaoh), the lord of hosts, [11] Who committed inordinacy in the cities, [12] So they made great mischief therein?, [13] Therefore your Lord let down upon them a portion of the chastisement.— translated by M. H. Shakir

Recent discoveries have brought Iram out of the realm of fable into history.

In the early 1980s a group of researchers interested in the history of Iram used NASA remote sensing satellites, ground penetrating radar, Landsat program data and images taken from the Space Shuttle Challenger as well as SPOT data to identify old camel train routes and points where they converged. These roads were used as frankincense trade routes around 2800 BC to 100 BC
 
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