The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

[thariq2005]

We have to ask the scholars of the Qur'an and Hadith of any matter which we are unaware with and then we should follow whatever rulings the scholars' gives based on authentic text

You need to be careful in not giving your own fataawa. How would a layman know if a hadeeth is authentic (that the scholar used)?

 

[Aziboy]

You need to be careful in not giving your own fataawa. How would a layman know if a hadeeth is authentic (that the scholar used)?

:salam2:

Ok fine, so please help us [layman] understand how would we know if a hadeeth is authentic then?

 

[thariq2005]

:salam2:

Ok fine, so please help us [layman] understand how would we know if a hadeeth is authentic then?

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

According to the scholar whom the layman trusts, the hadeeth is authentic. The layman doesn't make the judgement himself nor is he in the position to make a judgement. So he is 'blindly' following his scholar, when his scholar grades a hadeeth authentic.

 

[Aziboy]

So anyone who is not a scholar is layman, even though he has spend a couple of years, studying Qur'an and Hadith?

Asking an Aleem is not at all a Taqleed, you are confused, if we read Sahih Bukhari where it says our Prophet placed his right hand over his left hand while offering Salah, does that means you are doing taqleed of Iman Bukhari? so you are confusing here again

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ1qDpv36s[/ame]

Its is tehqeeq [questioning the scholars about things based on authenticity], where the scholar is directing you to the authentic Text, the Qur'an and Hadith, after your overall lengthy yet confusing statements, I asked so many scholars and all of them says there is nothing called Taqleed in Islam as such but for those who believes whatever is been told to them are Muqallids which we are not.

The companions of our beloved Prophet [saw] obeyed him and have not did the Taqlid coz he [saw] was himself a hujjah, there is no hadith or ayat [if you could produce one] where it says you should do taqleed of our Prophet.

You are confusing or maybe a Muqallid who is trying to prove his aqeedah simply based on the quotes of Scholars whereas you do have any authentic text to produce ur point.

The glorious Qur'an was scribed by Usman bin Affan [ra] so are you doing his taqleed, this is a lame statements that some rafidis do by rejecting the Qur'an and the so called ahle quran, who rejects the hadiths.

May ALLAH protect and guide us frm the Fitnas and guide us to the straight path... Ameen Ya Rabb Al-alamin

 

[Hammy]

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

According to the scholar whom the layman trusts, the hadeeth is authentic. The layman doesn't make the judgement himself nor is he in the position to make a judgement. So he is 'blindly' following his scholar, when his scholar grades a hadeeth authentic.

Also this verse clearly states to "Investigate" not to do "Taqleed"...

Qur'an Chapter 49: Verse 6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

How did the scholars gained knowledge??? infact, they were also Laymen at some point of time... if they did blind following than how they can be called scholars??? than this will go for all... and this will be a chain from the people after Sahabas (ra) till present scholars... all are blind followers than.. isnt this an insult to Allah (swt)...!!!

Allah (swt) is telling us to do Tehkeek (Investigate)... the verse "O you who believe! Follow Allah; follow the Messenger and those of authority (Amr) amongst you." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 59)

"SO, ask the people (having the knowledge) of the Message, if you do not know". (16:43)(21 :7)

Some Muqallids quoted this verse to follow them "due to not have enough knowledge in these fields we have opted to follow one of those great people who had attained that distinguished mastery in this field, among whom is a Tabiee, Imaam Abu Hanifa (R.H.). Imam Shafie and all".. than why not follow Prophet (saww), the Sahabas (ra) who followed what was revealed and Tabiee (rh) themselves follow them and this is a chain and they were successful... Alhamdulillah... rather it tells you to investigate and if you are asking any scholar you are not blind following him cuz you believing in the Book of Allah (swt) and making it firm unlike like the muqallids cuz there are many matters which contradicts the Sunnah...

Allah (swt) says in Chapter 27 Verse 64 ....Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

Again, what Allah (swt) is commanding us to show some truth... to investigate... If we remain blind followers than how we will answer the questions of Grave??? that person will only say "I don't know, what people use to say i use to do"... i don't know who My Lord is Who Prophet is and what is Islam.... I use to follow what majority of people use to follow.. that person did not investigate and this led him his own loss.... May Allah (swt) help us in answering those 3 questions which are most important which will be a decider....

If a person is out for gaining knowledge don't you think Allah (swt) will guide Him/Her??? by keeping a mentality like this means that Allah (swt) does not guide us... Nauzubillah... indeed, this is a challenge to Allah (swt) to say we'll remain blind followers as Allah (swt) says "He Guides whom He Pleases".... He removes whoever He Pleases from the depth of Darkness.... and He will keep them blind who don't want to believe... May Allah (swt) guide us all... Ameen...

 

[thariq2005]

So anyone who is not a scholar is layman, even though he has spend a couple of years, studying Qur'an and Hadith?

No I never said that. A person maybe a person of knowledge. It maybe the case that a student of knowledge who has specialized in certain sciences of Islaam and is at the level of doing Ijtihaad (i.e. derive rulings from the Qur'aan and Sunnah) and doing taqleed in other sciences. This is possible.

Some people who have studied for a while may be able to compare between the evidences of the scholar and based on the Usool they studied, can conclude the strongest opinion (according to their Usool) and follow it.

Asking an Aleem is not at all a Taqleed, you are confused, if we read Sahih Bukhari where it says our Prophet placed his right hand over his left hand while offering Salah, does that means you are doing taqleed of Iman Bukhari? so you are confusing here again

If you read Saheeh Bukhaari, the narrations there have been put in that book based on the 'grading' of Imaam al-Bukhaari. So, yes you are trusting Imaam al-Bukhaari's grading of narrations and following him in that.

The ahaadeeth in Bukhaari only mention about placing the right hand over the left hand. As to where to place them, there are other narrations from the other sunan that scholars use as evidences and the scholars differ as to the authencity of the different narrations. And in this case you will be forced to do Taqleed of one of the scholars.

Its is tehqeeq [questioning the scholars about things based on authenticity], where the scholar is directing you to the authentic Text, the Qur'an and Hadith,

I gave you the example of where the hands are placed. If a person asks shaykh al-Albaanee he will direct you towards the narrations that mention the placing of the hands on the chest and he deems them authentic. If you ask scholars who hold the opinion of placing the hands above the navel, they will direct you towards narrations that support their opinion and they will authenticate them. If you ask Imaam Ahmad, he will mention to you that you can place your hands anywhere as all the narrations are weak.

Whethere you ask shaykh al-Albaanee, Imaam Ahmad or other than them- you will be forced to do taqleed off one of them. Because you are unable to 'investigate' the authenticity of ahaadeeth, due to the fact that you have no knowledge of Mustalah, no knowledge of `Ilm al-Rijaal (the narrators of ahaadeeth) or no knowledge of `Ilal in hadeeth and many other sub-sciences within Mustalah al-Hadeeth

after your overall lengthy yet confusing statements, I asked so many scholars and all of them says there is nothing called Taqleed in Islam as such but for those who believes whatever is been told to them are Muqallids which we are not.

I don't know which scholars you asked, but the statements of the very scholars you posted- opposes your understanding. As I mentioned, this is the understanding of the salafi `Ulemaa and the proof is upon you to prove it otherwise.

It is all well and good you say that my statements are confusing, but you need to realize that you are even more confusing and your understanding is all over the place. You are the very person who quoted shaykh Ibn `Uthaymeen saying this:

"Taqleed is done in two cases:

1) when the muqallid is an ‘aamee (a common person) who does not have the ability to aquire knowledge of the sharee’ah ruling by himself. So taqleed is obligatory upon him, due to the saying of Allaah - The Most High, "ask the people of knowledge if you do not know."

So he does taqleed of one whom he considers to be a person of knowledge and piety. If there are two such people who are equal in his view, then he chooses any one of them."


And you oppose the very fundametnal point you posted.

The companions of our beloved Prophet [saw] obeyed him and have not did the Taqlid coz he [saw] was himself a hujjah, there is no hadith or ayat [if you could produce one] where it says you should do taqleed of our Prophet.

There was no difference of opinion during the time of the Prophet :saw2: as the Prophet was a hujjah himself and there was revelation at his time.

After his time, the sahaabah differed (in the furoo`, i.e. the secondary issues like fiqh etc.), the Taabi`een differend and so did the generation after them differed... all the way till the 21st Century.

You are confusing or maybe a Muqallid who is trying to prove his aqeedah simply based on the quotes of Scholars whereas you do have any authentic text to produce ur point.

No one is calling for taqleed of `aqeedah. We are talking about taqleed in the smaller issues of Fiqh.

The glorious Qur'an was scribed by Usman bin Affan [ra] so are you doing his taqleed, this is a lame statements that some rafidis do by rejecting the Qur'an and the so called ahle quran, who rejects the hadiths.

This is a very silly statement to be honest.

Also this verse clearly states to "Investigate" not to do "Taqleed"...

Qur'an Chapter 49: Verse 6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

The ayah is about the information that comes from a 'Faasiq'- i.e. a disobedient sinner who commits major sins in public. Not about righteous scholars.

Allah (swt) is telling us to do Tehkeek (Investigate)... the verse"O you who believe! Follow Allah; follow the Messenger and those of authority (Amr) amongst you." (Surah Al-Nisaa: 59)

Does this ayah then mean that we can follow the waliy al-'amr (the one in authority)?

 

[Hammy]

:salam2: Brother Thariq,

The ahaadeeth in Bukhaari only mention about placing the right hand over the left hand. As to where to place them, there are other narrations from the other sunan that scholars use as evidences and the scholars differ as to the authencity of the different narrations. And in this case you will be forced to do Taqleed of one of the scholars.

The only people who differs in opinions are the Muqallids....

I gave you the example of where the hands are placed. If a person asks shaykh al-Albaanee he will direct you towards the narrations that mention the placing of the hands on the chest and he deems them authentic. If you ask scholars who hold the opinion of placing the hands above the navel, they will direct you towards narrations that support their opinion and they will authenticate them. If you ask Imaam Ahmad, he will mention to you that you can place your hands anywhere as all the narrations are weak.

How can u conclude these Narrations by Imam Ahmad (rh) is authentic??? there are many things which are written on behalf of them which got nothing to do with Qur'an and Sunnah, like of Imam Abu Hanif (rh) than how can we believe if all Salafi scholars are of same opinion where to keep hand while praying???

Whethere you ask shaykh al-Albaanee, Imaam Ahmad or other than them- you will be forced to do taqleed off one of them. Because you are unable to 'investigate' the authenticity of ahaadeeth, due to the fact that you have no knowledge of Mustalah, no knowledge of `Ilm al-Rijaal (the narrators of ahaadeeth) or no knowledge of `Ilal in hadeeth and many other sub-sciences within Mustalah al-Hadeeth

When you ask a scholar about this he will tell you the chain of narrators and if not than why shall i believe in a Hadith which dosen't have any narrators attached? common sense???

After his time, the sahaabah differed (in the furoo`, i.e. the secondary issues like fiqh etc.), the Taabi`een differend and so did the generation after them differed... all the way till the 21st Century.

So that means after Sahabas (ra) all were blind followers....

This is a very silly statement to be honest.

No brother if you are doing taqleed of the shaikh who wrote the book than Hadrat Utham (ra) has also complied the Qur'an and presented it in a form of Book, before it was not... than obviously according to your understanding we are doing taqleed of Utham (ta)...

The ayah is about the information that comes from a 'Faasiq'- i.e. a disobedient sinner who commits major sins in public. Not about righteous scholars.

According to Salafi scholars, This Aya is regarding your worldly matters as well as matters of Hereafter to investigate... so even if a small issue or major one, you need help and help comes from Allah (swt) and none can help except Him...

Does this ayah then mean that we can follow the waliy al-'amr (the one in authority)?

I quoted as i found on hanafi fiqh website...

Brother Thariq, you are continuously coming up with taqleed whereas this got nothing to do in Islam... by your statements i fear they are challenging Allah (swt) than he cannot guide and all are Blind followers... I think you should go and ask some scholar regarding this rather sitting and refuting taqleed really.... go and ask Allah (swt) will help you In-sha-Allah....

 

[Aziboy]

Salam Alaykum,

THARIQ WROTE: No one is calling for taqleed of `aqeedah. We are talking about taqleed in the smaller issues of Fiqh.

Firstly, why do you want to use the word Taqleed and Muqallid for that matter???

Who have given us authority to do so, if you quote scholars than brother who already wrote they have differed, produce it from Qur'an and Sunnah that you have to do what so ur so called Taqleed in smaller issue of Fiqh.

We, Alhamdulillah have an Emaan that our beloved Prophet [saw] had left no issues which cannot be sort or fix based on his great practices.

Islam in the early generation was spreading and hence the Layman of that time used to question scholars as per his/her queries, hence the scholars [may Allah be pleased with them all] have only differed in giving the ruling whereas the Qur'an and Hadith is the same and shall remain safe and sound till the Day of Judgement...

Today where we have the authentic resources, we could question the scholars and ask for Daleels, and if they give the ruling based on Qur'an and Hadith then we will take it, Now you'll say howcome we know if its authentic, right? Well, we have Qur'an at home Alhamdulillah and there is Sahih Hadith where in we can check it, Now you'll say the translation I am referring to is again a Taqleed of that scholars, yeah?

Agreeing to a scholarly and authentic opinion isn't a Taqleed, coz the scholars does not speak on his own but rather speak the word of Qur'an and Hadith which we crosscheck in the books again [we are students you see] and should have an Emaan on the word of ALLAH and his Prophet.

So in short, there is nothing called TAQLEED in ISLAM and the Qur'an and Sunnah shall always win against the blind followers may it be hanafis, asharis, rafidis, sufis or whoever.

 

[thariq2005]

:salam2: Brother Thariq,

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

The only people who differs in opinions are the Muqallids....

I don't know who gave you that definition of a muqallid, but I certainly have not come across it before. So according to this definition of yours, the sahaabah are muqallidoon, the taabi`een are muqallidoon and so and so forth. So, for 1400 years (after the death of the Prophet :saw2 scholars have had differences of opinions and thus for 1400 years all of them have been muqallidoon except for yourself and Aziboy? This is a very strange conclusion brother.

How can u conclude these Narrations by Imam Ahmad (rh) is authentic???

I don't quite get what you mean here...

than how can we believe if all Salafi scholars are of same opinion where to keep hand while praying???

Again, I don't quite get what you mean here as well...

I would appreciate if you can elaborate on what you are trying to convey here.

When you ask a scholar about this he will tell you the chain of narrators and if not than why shall i believe in a Hadith which dosen't have any narrators attached? common sense???

How many scholars actually give the chain of narrators when he is questioned by a layman? I have never come across one...

Even if you have a hadeeth with its chains of narrators, you won't be able to do anything. You cannot even research the authenticity of the hadeeth. Here, let me give you a hadeeth with its chain of narrators- please tell me if it is authentic. Here is the hadeeth:

أخرج ابن خزيمة في صحيحه ( 479 ) ثنا أبو موسى ثنا مؤمل ثنا سفيان عن عاصم بن كليب عن أبيه عن وائل بن حجر قال :صليت مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ووضع يده اليمنى على يده اليسرى على صدره

Please tell me about each narrator and if they are reliable (and who said they are reliable) and if their narrations can be acceptable. Please tell me if this hadeeth meets all the conditions in order to be authentic.

No brother if you are doing taqleed of the shaikh who wrote the book than Hadrat Utham (ra) has also complied the Qur'an and presented it in a form of Book, before it was not... than obviously according to your understanding we are doing taqleed of Utham (ta)...

We are discussing about the understanding of the actual texts (i.e. the Qur'aan and Sunnah). We are not having a discussion about how they were preserved. The Qur'aan is mutawaatir and no one can doubt that these are the words of Allaah.

According to Salafi scholars, This Aya is regarding your worldly matters as well as matters of Hereafter to investigate... so even if a small issue or major one, you need help and help comes from Allah (swt) and none can help except Him

My point was that the ayah says that if any information comes from a 'Faasiq', then one should investigate and verify the information. This has nothing to do with following scholars who are righteous.

I quoted as i found on hanafi fiqh website...

It is irrelevant as to where you found the ayah, the quote is from the Qur'aan and in it Allaah commanded the believers to obey Allaah, His Messenger and the Waliy al-'Amr. If you are using this ayah to say that we cannot do Taqleed, then does that mean we can do taqleed of the Waliy al-'Amr?

by your statements i fear they are challenging Allah (swt) than he cannot guide and all are Blind followers...

You fear that I am challenging Allaah? Brother, take some moment to read this ayah from Soorah al-A`raaf: 33:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "(But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawahish (great evil sins, every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge."


If you notice, Allaah mentioned speaking about Allaah without knowledge after Shirk! And I really fear that you are speaking about Allaah and His Sharee`ah without knowledge- especially when you are quoting ayaat out of context and the tafseer of such ayaat are far off from your understanding of these ayaat.

Brother, it is like a layman (like myself) going and taking a medicine book and reading and saying that I am ready to do surgery. Even a foolish man will not come to me for surgery. You are claiming that we as laymen can just open the Qur'aan and Sunnah and start deriving rulings as we wish.

Can I ask you... can anybody take a book on medicine, read it and then start performing heart operations? If you say no, then I say to you that the knowledge of the religion of Allaah is far greater than medicine. This is the knowledge that Allaah sent from above the seven heavens! And yet we are ready to take this knowledge and start giving our own opinions, yet with medicine we will not dare to do so. This is only disrespect to Islaam.

 

[thariq2005]

Salam Alaykum,

Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

Firstly, why do you want to use the word Taqleed and Muqallid for that matter???

Actually I should ask you that question. Why did you use the word Taqleed when you posted the article? Why did shaykh Ibn `Uthaymeen (whose article you posted), say this:

Taqleed is done in two cases:

1) when the muqallid is an ‘aamee (a common person) who does not have the ability to aquire knowledge of the sharee’ah ruling by himself. So taqleed is obligatory upon him, due to the saying of Allaah - The Most High, "ask the people of knowledge if you do not know."

So he does taqleed of one whom he considers to be a person of knowledge and piety. If there are two such people who are equal in his view, then he chooses any one of them.

Did you post that article to disagree on it or to agree on it? Do you believe the article is correct or wrong? If you believe it is correct, then what do you say about the above statement by shaykh Ibn `Uthaymeen? If you believe the article you posted is wrong, then what was the point of you posting the article in the first place

Who have given us authority to do so, if you quote scholars than brother who already wrote they have differed, produce it from Qur'an and Sunnah that you have to do what so ur so called Taqleed in smaller issue of Fiqh.

The proof is upon you to say that Taqleed of trustworthy scholars is Haraam. I already gave you my proof from the Qur'aan and explained it too. Here it is again:

When you ask a scholar, you are asking him because you DO NOT KNOW. When you ask him and he gives you a ruling and you follow that ruling, then you are blind following that scholar. Because following the ruling of a scholar is blind following as even you posted in the article: "Technically it means: Following he whose sayings is not a proof (hujjah)."

And if you want the word 'Taqleed' from the Qur'aan and Sunnah, then I mentioned to you this (which you dodged and brushed it under the carpet):

The fact that the word taqleed is not there in the Qur'aan and sunnah does not mean it is not legislated. If this is the deciding factor (that the word should be in the Qur'aan and Sunnah) then Islaam won't be as preserved as it is today. Modernists will ask you, where is the word free-mixing in the Qur'aan or Sunnah (i.e. إختلاط in arabic). People will say that the word 'cigarette" is not in the Qur'aan and Sunnah either.

Can I ask you, can you to show me any ayah or hadeeth that says the word ijmaa`? Or any explicit ayah that says that Ijmaa` is from the sources of Islaam? Yet scholars consider ijmaa` as one of the sources of Islaam, i.e. it is as much as a legislative source as the Qur'aand and Sunnah is.

Today where we have the authentic resources, we could question the scholars and ask for Daleels, and if they give the ruling based on Qur'an and Hadith then we will take it, Now you'll say howcome we know if its authentic, right? Well, we have Qur'an at home Alhamdulillah and there is Sahih Hadith where in we can check it, Now you'll say the translation I am referring to is again a Taqleed of that scholars, yeah?

Do you actually believe you can understand the Qur'aan and Sunnah by reading a translation? The translation is a mere attempt in explaining the Qur'aan and Sunnah. It is a joke, that you read the translations and trust it so much- yet you do not want to trust the scholars that much.

And yes, it is doing taqleed of the translation!

Agreeing to a scholarly and authentic opinion isn't a Taqleed, coz the scholars does not speak on his own but rather speak the word of Qur'an and Hadith which we crosscheck in the books again [we are students you see] and should have an Emaan on the word of ALLAH and his Prophet.

Agreeing to a scholarly opinion? When you say agreeing, then this entails that you derived the ruling yourself and you asked a scholar and you agreed with him. This is not the case. The reality is you DO NOT KNOW about a ruling, so you ask a scholar. Who then gives you the ruling and you follow it. This is blind following, because according to the definition you gave for Taqleed: "It is following the statements of the one who is not a hujjah".

Brother, you say you are a student and you do not even know Arabic? That is like me claiming to be a student in heart surgery and haven't studied even primary school biology.

So in short, there is nothing called TAQLEED in ISLAM

You still have not brought the statement of any scholar to support your view, nor an ayah or hadeeth. So, this either means that no one had this understanding before you and you are the first person to come up with this understanding after 1400 years! Which then means that Allaah has left this ummah upon misguidance untill you came to save the ummah from the darkness of misguidance.

I have raised many points in this thread and you have not addressed any of them. Rather you just brushed them all under the carpet. If you wish to have a fair discussion, at least address the points I raised against you and not dodge them. I have been answering all the points you raised, and you are yet to do that. If you really have the truth on your side, you should have no problem refuting all my points I raised against you.

 

[Aziboy]

Why do you want me to bring a scholar to you that supports me? are you crazy?

I don't wana waste time like you do by simply quoting the statements without giving authentic answers to the claims.

THARIQ WROTE: When you ask a scholar, you are asking him because you DO NOT KNOW. When you ask him and he gives you a ruling and you follow that ruling, then you are blind following that scholar. Because following the ruling of a scholar is blind following as even you posted in the article: "Technically it means: Following he whose sayings is not a proof (hujjah)."

Whatever you have mentioned above is the LAME excuse to your Taqleed bit.

Understand this thing, If a scholar informs you that "ALLAH is One, you should Invoke none but ALLAH, Obey ALLAH and Obey his Messenger" based on Qur'an how can you prove it to be blind following, it is based on Qur'an which is ALLAH's word, the scholar is giving out his ruling, don't you have common sense?

Every child is born in a state of fitrah and in a state of innate goodness, and it is this TAQLEED [blind following] and social environment which cause the individual to deviate from this state.

Since our beloved Prophet [saw] did not mention the parents changing the child from a state of fitrah to a state of Islam, we must suppose that the child’s state at birth is in harmony with Islam, in the widest sense of submission to Allah and not a LAYMAN or BLIND FOLLOWER.

A new-born child to non-Muslim parents is in reality born upon the Fitrah as a MUSLIM, which means that he is free from wrong beliefs, blind followings and is prepared to accept the truth.

Its ALLAH who guides to truth while everything else is blind following. You are simply misquoting the scholars and the term BLIND FOLLOWING.

so when Allah the Most High, Says: so ask the people of the message if you do not know. [16:43]. we should definately ask them, but before that you should have a deep intention of gaining knowledge and guidance from ALLAH alone.

May ALLAH [swt] protect and guide us all ............ Ameen Ya Rabb Al-alamin

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Brothers,

Why do you insult each other and call yourselves Muslims. Time for a cold shower.

What you are discussing is very philosophical. For the average Believer there are other steps on the Path.

We must understand that whatever we decide is the best course for us; we will be questioned on the Day of Judgement. We have been given reason. We can not follow blindly because that path leads to desire. We have to follow the Path of ease; and Allah subhana wa taala illuminates that Path.

Please continue with your discussion but keep it under the best of manners. No insults, please.

 

[thariq2005]

Again Aziboy, you are running away from the points I raised. I don't see a point in you trying to defend your position when you are running away without answering any of the points I raised, yet I answer all your points. It is pretty clear as to who is confused and who is not, walhamdulillaah

Why do you want me to bring a scholar to you that supports me? are you crazy?

I don't wana waste time like you do by simply quoting the statements without giving authentic answers to the claims.

You don't want to bring a scholar that supports you or you don't have a scholar that supports you?

When did I quote statements without giving authentic answers? I quoted to you ayaat and scholars. And it seems that you are disregarding the scholars I have quoted to you. If you are doing so, then tell me which scholars do you have on your side to support your view?

THARIQ WROTE: When you ask a scholar, you are asking him because you DO NOT KNOW. When you ask him and he gives you a ruling and you follow that ruling, then you are blind following that scholar. Because following the ruling of a scholar is blind following as even you posted in the article: "Technically it means: Following he whose sayings is not a proof (hujjah)."

Whatever you have mentioned above is the LAME excuse to your Taqleed bit.

How is it LAME? It is easy to make claims. And I can make claims as well. But claims mean nothing without proof. So, tell me how is my above statement lame?

The ayah is pretty clear, where Allaah commands to ask the people of knowledge IF YOU DO NOT KNOW. Why would you ask a scholar, when you already know the ruling of a matter?

Understand this thing, If a scholar informs you that "ALLAH is One, you should Invoke none but ALLAH, Obey ALLAH and Obey his Messenger" based on Qur'an how can you prove it to be blind following, it is based on Qur'an which is ALLAH's word, the scholar is giving out his ruling, don't you have common sense?

I told you: We are not talking about the Usool of the deen, i.e. the fundamentals of the religion. We are talking about taqleed in the secondary issues of Fiqh, where scholars have had 'valid' differences of opinion. You will not, for example, have scholars disagreeing about how many raka`at are there for dhuhr or `Asr. Or if one should recite loudly or silently in those prayers. Rather, the scholars differed in the smaller matters of fiqh, like where to place the hands, when to raise the hands, how to go down to sajdah etc. etc.

As for the fundamentals of this religion, then all of them have been agreed upon by the entire ummah and are the most basic thing that is known to every single muslim.

A new-born child to non-Muslim parents is in reality born upon the Fitrah as a MUSLIM, which means that he is free from wrong beliefs, blind followings and is prepared to accept the truth.

A child is not born as a muslim (this is a common misconception), check the explanations of the hadeeth. Rather, a child is born with a pure innate nature with an inclination towards Islaam.

Its ALLAH who guides to truth while everything else is blind following. You are simply misquoting the scholars and the term BLIND FOLLOWING.

It is a serious accusation to say that I am misquoting scholars. If you are going to accuse me of misquoting me, then please prove it...

 

[samiha]

Salam Alaykum,

Firstly, why do you want to use the word Taqleed and Muqallid for that matter???

wa'alaykum salaam

Because these are acceptable terminologies that have been engrained into Fiqh for years and years, and no actual scholar disputes their usage.

No offense brother, but the fact that you are even asking this question shows that you need to study far more into Islam and fiqh itself.

Why do you want me to bring a scholar to you that supports me?

Because otherwise you have Lied. Many scholars have supported taqleed, and even usage of its terms - like the article you quoted, and even Shaykh al-Albani rahimahullah, which I will post afterward insha'Allah. Besides your own words and understanding - who supports you?

so when Allah the Most High, Says: so ask the people of the message if you do not know. [16:43]. we should definately ask them, but before that you should have a deep intention of gaining knowledge and guidance from ALLAH alone.

May ALLAH [swt] protect and guide us all ............ Ameen Ya Rabb Al-alamin

You should always have that intention. Every time you ask a scholar or seek a ruling, your intention should always be to do that which you feel is closer to Allah, to Islam, and to the Sunnah of Rasulullah 'alayhi salaatu wa salaam. If you happen to see some of the evidences for a ruling and your heart inclines towards one of them, and you feel this is closer to the truth and is given to you by a trustworthy scholar, then you should adhere to it, even if it's more difficult. But you cannot then say that you have done ijtihaad and come to the decision that this ruling is correct based on the evidences, because to have done that you would have had to look thoroughly into each side and been able to weigh them and have knowledge about the topic - rather what you have done is chosen to do taqleed of this scholar regarding this opinion, because you feel it is closest to the truth, or his understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah is better.


Aziboy, my advice to you - either think about the points and reply back academically (with scholars and actual proof) - perhaps by answering the questions - or Fear Allah and stop posting your emotional outbursts because this may only harm you in the future and you may come to regret speaking without knowledge.

wa'Allahu A'lam

 

[samiha]

The Second Question

“What is the proof concerning the forbiddance of blind following?”


Shaikh al-Albaani said, “I do not know of any proof that states that blind following is haraam, rather blind following is a necessity for the one who has no knowledge. And Allaah, the one free from all defects and the Most High, said, “So ask those who know the Scripture if you know not.” Therefore, this aayah placed the Muslims into two categories as regards knowledge:

i) the scholar and it made obligatory upon him to answer the questioner
ii) those who do not know, and it made asking the scholars obligatory upon them.

So if a person from the common folk came to a scholar and asked him about something and the scholar answered him, then this man has implemented the aayah.

And maybe what is intended is something other than what was mentioned in the question [directed to me] and that is the forbiddance of actively splitting into sects and groups; i.e., that a person take his religion from one of schools of thought that are followed and then he totally [refuses] to look at what the other schools of thought might say or at what the sayings of other scholars are–so it is this blind following of schools of thought which is then taken as religion that is not permitted because it opposes the proofs from the Book and the Sunnah.

And the people of knowledge place the people into three categories:

1) the mujtahid
2) the follower on clear proof and insight and
3) the blind follower, and it is this category that most of the people fall into.

As such we cannot say that, “Blind following is haraam,” [that] is only when blind following is taken as religion, as for blind following in general then it is not permissible to declare it to be forbidden.” [1]

[[1] Footnote here by Amr Abdul-Mun’im Salim who said, “And what has been said here is also said concerning taking the opinion of a scholar concerning the declaration of a hadith to be weak or authentic, with the condition that the status/rank of that scholar in relation to that knowledge be borne in mind. So such declarations of whether a hadith is authentic or weak are not taken from a scholar of fiqh who does not know [the science of] hadith criticism. Just as the declaration of whether a hadith is authentic cannot be relied upon when it comes from someone among the scholars of hadith or the hadith preservers who is known as being lenient; just as it is not possible to take the declaration that a hadith is weak from someone is known as being overly-strict. In fact this is a correct rule [established] by those known for their moderation and justice along with their knowledge of the principles of this profession and who are known for their practise of it which established their ability to exercise their judgement in arriving at a religious ruling [ijtihaad] concerning the criticism and chains of narration and their texts.”]

Taken from Al-Fataawaa al-Kuwaitiyyah, compiled by Amr Abdul-Mun’im Saleem, pp. 81-83.

 

[Hammy]

I don't understand a simple logic, if a person is a layman and is a blind follower as quoted by brother Thariq than how he can become a "scholar"... ofcourse after becoming a scholar he was a layman and blind follower too than how blind follower can become a Scholar??? and how we consider that person to be a Scholar??? How do you expect that Allah (swt) will raise his/her status despite the fact that person is BLIND FOLLOWER??? NO WAY!!! aftr Sahabas (ra) there were difference in opinion... but difference in opinion is altogether a different thing which is NOT TAQLEED.... i remember Hadith about 3 Salaam... standing at door do 3 salaams and if unanswered he shuld walk away.. and Hazrat Umar (ra) wasnt aware about this... and you know what, he knew it through a child not even 10 years old than Hazrat Umar (ra) did taqleed of that child.... i think this is a poor marketting practice of TAQLEED guys...

Coming to fact that Shaikh Al-Albaani (rh) quote, for the sake of argument if one accept it to be true, (dont know who wrote this on his behalf, or he did this) than we have to accept this as well quoted by Imam Abu hanifa (rh) and why not we are "BLIND FOLLOWERS", isnt it!! that:

1) not approved is the prayer of a man behing a woman or a child - (Hidaya part 1 Imamat).
2) Women cannot pray in Jamaat, this is not approved (Hidaya babul Imamat)
3) You gift some one something and you also have the right to take that gift back. (Hidaya Kitabul Hiba)

Ofcourse, we are BLIND FOLLOWERS, we don't know anything, Allah (swt) has left us alone wandering on earth... so we can also refer Shia's who claims that they are on the right path... so what a Layman can do??? confused with Sunni's than follow Shia's... why not?? their aslo claims seems to be true like from their book Al-Kafi, authentic according them and their scholars quotations as follows:

[1] AlHur Al'amily said "The authors of the Four Books of shia (Al-Kafi , AlIstibsaar , AlTahzeeb , Mun La YahDuruHu Alfaqeeh) have testified that the Hadiths of their books are accurate (saheeh) , firm and well conducted from the roots that all shia agreed on , and if you consider those scholars (the authors of the four books) are reliable then you must accept their sayings and their narrations . " [Alwasa'el , volume 20 , page 104]

[2] Sharaf'Deen AbdulHussain Mosawy said: "Al-Kafi, AlIsTibSaar, AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh are *MutawaTirah* and agreed on the accuracy of its contents (the Hadiths) , and Al-Kafi is the oldest , greatest , best and the most accurate one of them " . [The book of AlMuraja'aat , Muraj'ah number 110 ] ..... MutawaTirah = accurate 100% because it was narrated by many narrators .

[3] Muhammad Sadiq AlSaDr said : " Although The Shia are on the unanimity of that The four books (Al-Kafi , AlIsTibSaar , AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh) are accepted and *all* the narrations in them are accurate ( Saheeh ), But they did not call them by the name (Sihaah ) like AhlSunnah did." [The Book of shia "Kitab alshia" page 127 ]

[4] AlTabRassy said: "Al-Kafi among the four shia books (AlTahzeeb , Al-Kafi , AlIsTibSar , mun la YahDuruhu Alfaqeeh) is like the sun among the stars , and who looked fairly would not need to notice the position of the men in the chain of hadiths in this Book , and if you looked fairly you would feel satisfied and sure that the hadiths are firm and accurate." [MusTaDrak AlWasa'el, volume 3 , page 532]

[5] AlKhomeini said: "Do you think it is enough for our religious life to have its laws summed up in Al-Kafi and then placed upon a shelf?" [Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72]

Ohh!!! such a nice claims out here.... why dont a BLIND FOLLOWER follow them??? without he/she being realising that he/she has become a "MURTAD"... (Now pls this is NOT for you guys ok so don't assume things, i wanted to make this clear).

A sincere advise for both of my sister and brother... PLS DO NOT do Da'wah to a newly reverted Muslim, that person will surely leave Islam with confusion and hatred....

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

First, we sisters can not do dawah to/for brothers.

Second, I simply responded to remind us to use the best of manners. A new revert has to devote time to the fundamentals. Help the revert with the Islam 101. The most important message of Love: There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. Everything branches from this statement. All knowledge proceeds from this. The task of the Believer is to seek knowledge of Allah and His Names and Attributes, the second task is to seek knowledge of the Prophet, swas. Thus, the new Believer will have a wide path to follow. It is a slow and arduous process; it has to be; the goal is clear.

 

[Hammy]

For us laymen it is flexible as to who we want to follow. If you, as a lay person, feel comfortable following the mad-hab of your parents (example hanafi madh-hab or shafi`ee madh-hab) then that is perfectly fine. Remember, that many people who innovate or do shirk etc. try and attribute it to the madh-habs they follow ( ex: hanafi madh-hab, shafi`ee madh-hab, maaliki madh-hab or hanbali madh-hab) and this is mainly so that they can 'legitimise' their actions. So, if this is the case then don't follow what your parents are following but rather the actual madh-hab from the right people of knowledge who have studied that madh-hab.

Obviously you are not restricted to follow the madh-hab of your parents, nor is it waajib upon you to do so nor is waajib upon you to follow any one of the four madh-habs. If you have local shaykhs or Imaams then you can follow them (as long as you trust them and they are knowledgable, pious etc.). If you don't want to follow someone local and follow another scholar whom you trust (like maybe IslamQA) then that is fine as well. What should be noted is that it is NOT obligatory for you to restrict yourself to any one scholar but what is obligatory upon you is that you blindly follow (or follow- whatever you may want to call it) trustworthy scholar(s) and not try to derive rulings from the Qur'aan and sunnah yourself.

While going through this thread, i found thought of brother Thariq which completely contradicts the Qur'an and Sunnah... that remind me of people finding for "SHORTCUTS".... there is no 4 Madhab in Islam... Here the Madhab which is acceptable is only of Muhammad rasoolAllah (saww).... Our Lord Qur'an and Muhammad (saww) sayings... this thought is a Satanic thought, "that stick to our fiqh or Masjid or Alim or anything for that matter, all goes to God (Allah)... this same thought, unfortunately can be found in Non-Islamic religions that all are God's people everyone calls to themselves i.e., towards God... whether you talk about Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism... same concept... which clearly contradicts the Qur'an and this verse Bulldozed this belief where Allah, Most High says: Chapter 5, Verse 4 "....This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion".

Hadith - Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 861. Narrated Aisha, r.a.
Allah's Apostle SAAWS said, "If somebody innovates something which is not in harmony with the principles of our religion, that thing is rejected."

Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee, rahimahullaah, said,

"That a servant meets Allaah with every sin except Shirk
is better than meeting Him upon any of the innovated beliefs."

Reported by al-Baihaqee in al-I'tiqaad (p.158)

Brother Thariq, if someone is free from SHIRK and is indulged in Bidah, than he/she is doing SHIRK in Allah's Sunnah, in His way worship as taught by our Prophet (saww), by accepting blindly the way of those which is not approved and practice of Prophet (saww) and His Companions (ra)... By following blindly, he/she is making that person as his Lord where Allah (swt) says Chapter 9 Verse 31: "They have taken their learned men and their monks for lords beside Allah......"

And This Aya is not only for Christians, but this is for us as well and till the end time this Ayaa is for all... good job brother thariq applause for you, by imposing your beliefs on others which is totally irrelevant to Islam... you do blind following why you telling others to do the same??? why confusing them....??? The people supporting you all are in favour of Muqallids like to do blind follow... Indeed the above quoted Verse is an eye opener for you all, if not, than remember than the only guidance comes from Allah (swt), not by any "Muqallids".....

 

[Hammy]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA-85sCAwqs[/ame]

 

[Aziboy]

Because these are acceptable terminologies that have been engrained into Fiqh for years and years, and no actual scholar disputes their usage.

Years and years, and could you tell me why they have not disputed then? Coz most of them amongst the scholars went deviated and hence they were busy promoting their own ideology of Islam, don’t you know how many deviant sects are present today in the name of Islam? Thanks to the years and years of INFILTRATIONs

Is the term "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah" given in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Is the term "Sunni" given in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Yet these are accepted terminologies used when understanding fiqh, Aqeedah, or different topics without an issue. Where in hadeeth do you see the Prophet 'alayhi salaatu wa salaam deciding that his sayings should be categorized as saheeh, mawdu', da'eef, etc etc.. ?

The terms, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah", "Sunni", saheeh, mawdu', da'eef, TURNTOISLAM, Aziboy does not exist in the authentic text, these are the names if you could know. A Muslim is brother to another Muslim by faith and not name, always remember that.
The term Sunni is used to separate the entire deviance community from the Rafidahs and a person who follows the revelation is called Sunni just to give you an example here
This is the way of Allah (sunnat Allah) with those who passed away before, and you will not find any alteration in the way of Allah (sunnat Allah). (33.62)

You realize 'sahih' is a classification - not always a set standard. One scholar might feel something is saheeh, but another may disagree based on xyz factors.

So you also doubt for Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, didn’t you get what exactly these set of books means by their very name?

You are not a student of knowledge, you are not a muhaddith, you are not someone who can cross check every source... you are a layman who has internet and a few books.

Its you whoz a Laywoman coz you believe in whatever has been quoted in the name of scholars but you don’t believe in the authentic text, bad.
If you are so much dependent on the scholarly quotes than I guess you believe in what each and every scholars says from the deviant sects based on Qur’an and Hadith which is even against the practices of Sahabas and our beloved Prophet [saw] himself…

Aziboy, my advice to you - either think about the points and reply back academically (with scholars and actual proof) - perhaps by answering the questions - or Fear Allah and stop posting your emotional outbursts because this may only harm you in the future and you may come to regret speaking without knowledge.

Sorry I cant take your advice here since you are a Laywoman and a BLIND FOLLOWER

Shaikh al-Albaani said,

“I do not know of any proof that states that blind following is haraam, rather blind following is a necessity for the one who has no knowledge.

Could you please elaborate more as to how you come to know the Shaikh Al-Albaani [ra] said the above quote, once you answer this, I shall prove you where exactly you are heading based only on scholarly quotes.
The shaikh must have quoted the above statement in Arabic, isn’t it??? So now you did a BLIND FOLLOWING of BLIND FOLLOWING….