The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Aziboy, May 16, 2012.

  1. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    :wasalam:

    If you think you are a Layman then you may ask anyone why only US?

    And if you are not, go to your nearest mosque and speak to the concern person there, please proceed don't waste your time.

    And for ur Format: sorry brother I ain't gonna do ur Taqleed in this.

    Wassalam
  2. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Clearly, you have some underlying comprehension issues. Why are you acting so apprehensive?

    Anyway, I'd like to start asking you some questions anyway, since you have it all figured out:
    You mention "may Allaah preserve him". Is he still alive according to you?
  3. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    you have mis-spelled the word above, please change it brother.

    To answer your question, I would like to ask whether you know what is the meaning by Al-Barzakh?

    Don't know, if not then let me answer you.

    Al-Barzakh is the period between a person's death and his resurrection on the Day of Judgement.

    Whoever dies as a Muslim, obeying Allah, will be in a blessed state, and whoever dies as a kaafir, disobeying Allah, will be punished.

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning);

    “The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon. And on the Day when the Hour will be established (it will be said to the angels): ‘Cause Fir‘aun’s (Pharaoh) people to enter the severest torment!’” [Ghaafir 40:46]
  4. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Well thank you very much. I'm a new member, I cannot edit my typos. You yourself made typos, like

    - accepting it’s concessions (extra apostrophe)
    - Ibn Abdul Barr (should be Ibn Abdil Barr)
    - Exlcuded (should be Excluded)

    unless of course your reason for these typos is that you were doing Taqleed of those you were copying-pasting from!


    ok you have presented your Daleel for this. I'm wondering if any scholar before you - apart from those people from whom you copied-pasted your opening post - has ever used the Dua "may Allaah preserve him" for a deceased person.

    Which scholars have ever used "may Allaah preserve him" for a deceased person, based on your Daleel? Or do you have knowledge that they don't? Or don't you care at all about how the scholars have used "may Allaah preserve him" - only for people who are alive?

    If you can't answer reasonably, we'll move on insha'allah.
  5. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    Smart boy, do you want a Grammy? :D



    If you can't change it, I can.... Thank you Quality Checker ;)

    Ibn Abdul Barr is ok
  6. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Just what I thought - no answer. I want the Haqq, not a Grammy. You departed from the Haqq by doing Taqleed of those you copied-pasted from by using "may Allaah preserve him" for a deceased person. And you tried to justify this Taqleed of yours by presenting a bogus Daleel!

    Let's move on. You quoted the following from Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen:
    We agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

    Do you?
  7. Aziboy
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    Why do you think the article is there?

    And how would a BLIND FOLLOWER wud know what a Haqq is?

    Don't you understand why Shaikh had used the word "Taqleed" here? and you agree to it wholeheartedly, rather You call urself a Layman and start agreeing it Blindheartedly, who cares !

    Thank you so much, nice to have u here
  8. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    You are acting quite immaturely. We're trying to understand you. You won't change anybody's opinion with this attitude.


    Well I don't know. It seems you don't understand what you have been blindly copying-pasting. Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen is clearly saying that for a common person like you:

    - taqleed is obligatory upon him, due to the saying of Allaah - The Most High, "ask the people of knowledge if you do not know."

    He adds:
    - And also because the common person cannot aquire knowledge of the sharee’ah rulings with it’s proofs by himself. So if he is unable to arrive at the truth by himself, then nothing remains for him except taqleed, due to the saying of Allaah - the most High, "fear Allaah as much as you can"

    So the evidence for the obligation of Taqleed is the verse of the Quran "ask the people of knowledge if you do not know" according to Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen. Do you agree with this?

    He even mentions that a Mujtahid does Taqleed in some cases. Do you agree with this?

    Here are his clear audio fatwas that oblige Taqleed on the layman like you:
    http://www.ahl-alsonah.com/play-ftwa-45895.html
    http://www.ahl-alsonah.com/play-ftwa-45892.html
    http://www.ahl-alsonah.com/play-ftwa-45891.html
    http://www.ahl-alsonah.com/play-ftwa-45889.html
    http://www.ahl-alsonah.com/play-ftwa-45885.html


    How would a person blindly copying and pasting, like you, know what the Haqq is? You can't even comprehend that you go against Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen on Taqleed yet you copy-paste his whole chapter on Taqleed!



    Your comments are welcome, Aziboy.
  9. Abu Talib
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    Assalamu`alaykum

    JazakAllaah for joining us Inshaa`Allah we will all benefit.
  10. Abu Talib
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    Bro Aziboy if you read translated Qur`aan and hadeeth is it enough to derive rulings? Please comprehend on the fact that we are discussing Taqleed incontext of Fiqh.

  11. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Discarded referee? I wanted to step out of the discussion solely because you clearly don't even read my posts fully, let alone discuss the issue at hand. So it is pretty pointless where I am reading your posts in full and replying to each point and you don't even bother reading what I post. Either this means that you are intellectually incapable of reading english, or you just don't have an answer to my posts. I hope it is the latter.

    Outcry? Don't forget that you were the one in the previous thread (regarding the obligation of reciting al-Faatihah), begging for me to stop posting and asked to delete the comments. Following are your comments:

    And then you ended up blind following Hammy and defended Hammy when he posted a fabricated narration! You had so much ego that you did not even admit your own mistake. At least he admitted his mistake.
  12. Harris Hammam
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    Honestly, I've read Aziboy's and Hammy's posts. There are so many errors it will take another 100 posts of discussion to rattle through all of them.

    That is why I've decided choose another route for discussion:

    I've posted on the other forum the various usages and connotations of Taqleed as used by the scholars. If you want to quote a scholar, then know what meaning he is intending; otherwise one can become baffled and mix everything all over.

    I'll reproduce it here, with a bit of editing:


    This post is dedicated for all the connotations of Taqleed that have been used by the classical scholars that I have come across to date.

    I thought about gathering them in one place because this is a potentially confusing issue to the beginner, so I thought I would clarify these in one place. I will try to give one example for each.

    1. Taqleed i.e. to take the opinion of a qualified person whose statement is not Hujjah per se in the Shariah, but is a Hujjah for the ignorant (just like a real Daleel is Hujjah for a Mujtahid).
    This definition is the main connotation and usage in the books of Usool that discuss this issue. One of the best definitions given for this meaning of Taqleed is by Ibn 'l-Humam: العمل بقول من ليس قوله إحدى الحجج بلا حجة.

    Thanks to Aziboy for quoting him. By the way, Aziboy, it's Ibn al-Humam, not Ibn Hammam. Please stop doing Batil Taqleed of others. Copying-pasting without comprehension is the most humiliating type of Batil Taqleed one can perpetrate.

    This meaning of Taqleed has either one of two states:
    a) obligatory - for the one incapable of arriving at his own conclusion
    b) prohibited - for the one capable of arriving at his own conclusion, and this is the one where most refutations against Taqleed are directed at, by the likes of al-Jassas, Ibn `Abd ''l-Barr, Ibn Khuwayz Mandad, Ibn 'l-Qayyim, etc. (There are further details on this type of Taqleed discussed in the texts about Mujtahids doing Taqleed of other Mujtahids.)

    According to this definition of Taqleed, it would mean there is no such thing as 'Taqleed of the Prophet', because the Prophet per se is Hujjah. Likewise, there is no such thing as Taqleed of Quran or Ijmaa, because both are evidence in their own right.


    2. Taqleed i.e. to follow something valid, and this would encompass a scholar as well as the Prophet peace be upon him.
    Some Shafi`i Usool texts actually do allow the application of the term Taqleed for the Prophet as well. Al-Zarkashi:
    لا خلاف أن قبول قول غير النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من الصحابة والتابعين يسمى تقليدا. وأما قبول قوله عليه السلام فهل يسمى تقليدا؟ وجهان ينبنيان على الخلاف في حقيقة التقليد ماذا؟ قلت: وذكر الشيخ أبو محمد الجويني في المسألة في أول السلسلة أن الذي نص عليه الشافعي أنه يسمى تقليدا، فإنه قال في حق الصحابي لما ذهب إلى أنه لا يجب الأخذ بقوله ما نصه: فإما أن يقلده فلم يجعل الله ذلك لأحد بعد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم. انتهى

    وخطأ الماوردي من قال إنه ليس بتقليد، ولكن قال الروياني في البحر: أطلق الشافعي على جعل القبول من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم تقليدا ولم يرد حقيقة التقليد، وإنما أراد القبول من السؤال

    وفي وقوع اسم التقليد عليه وجهان، قال: والصحيح من المذهب أنه يتناوله هذا الاسم، وفي هذا إشارة إلى رجوع الخلاف إلى اللفظ، وبه صرح إمام الحرمين في التلخيص وقال: هو اختلاف في عبارة يهون موقعها عند ذوي التحقيق

    واختار ابن السمعاني أنه لا يسمى تقليدا، بل هو اتباع شخص، لأن الدليل قد قام في أن له حجة، فلا يكون قبول قوله قبول قول في الدين من قائله بلا حجة

    Most say though that the first usage of Taqleed is the best, and to say 'Taqleed of the Prophet' is just Majaz (metaphorical, i.e. to simply follow).


    3. Taqleed i.e. Ittiba` of a person who from whom the laws originate, and this is reserved for the Prophet peace be upon him.
    This usage has been sourced in al-Shafi`is words, who said (via al-Zarkashi): ولا يجوز تقليد أحد سوى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم. Scholars have said this إطلاق is Majaz, as the set terminology is that in #1 above, and the Prophet is not included therein. Why the Prophet peace be upon him has been referred to by al-Shafi`i as one we should do 'Taqleed' of is because he was a human being with knowledge (which explains why the term Taqleed is never used for Quran, or Allah, or Ijma`, or Sunnah, or Hadith, etc.)


    4. Taqleed i.e. to follow something that is against the proof.
    This meaning has been used by Imam Abu Hanifah's student, Muhammad bin 'l-Hasan, who said (in the context of refuting Imam Abu Hanifah (see below, from al-Mabsut by al-Sarakhsi)
    وقد استبعد محمد رحمه الله تعالى قول أبي حنيفة في الكتاب لهذا وسماه تحكما على الناس من غير حجة فقال ما أخذ الناس بقول أبي حنيفة وأصحابه إلا بتركهم التحكم على الناس فإذا كانوا هم الذين يتحكمون على الناس بغير أثر ولا قياس لم يقلدوا هذه الأشياء ولو جاز التقليد كان من مضي من قبل أبي حنيفة مثل الحسن البصري وإبراهيم النخعي رحمهما الله تعالى أحرى أن يقلدوا ولم يحمد على ما قال
    Just as a sidenote, al-Sarakshi didn't like the above statement by Imam Muhammad and went on to say regarding him:
    وقيل: بسبب ذلك انقطع خاطره فلم يتمكن من تفريغ مسائل الوقف حتى خاض في الصكوك واستكثر أصحابه من بعده من تفريغ مسائل الوقف كالخصاف وهلال رحمهما الله تعالى، ولو كان أبو حنيفة رضي الله تعالى عنه في الأحياء حين قال ما قال لدمر عليه، فإنه كما قال مالك رضي الله تعالى عنه رأيت رجلا لو قال هذه الأسطوانة من ذهب لدل عليه ولكن كل مجرى بالجلاء يسر

    What we are interested in here is the usage of the Taqleed - to follow someone when they go against real proof. This condemned Taqleed is only applies to scholars and advanced students, not laymen or quasi-laymen students, because they are aware of the evidences. A layman who has no clue is always excused.


    5. Taqleed i.e. not to do any Ijtihad.
    Al-Zarkashi quotes some Usoolis on this, who suggest that even laymen have to do a degree of Ijtihad when identifying a scholar, hence they are not doing Taqleed - in other words, Taqleed in this connotation does not even exist in the world, as everyone is doing Ijtihad of some sort their own accord:
    أخذ العامي بقول المجتهد، هل يسمى تقليدا أم لا؟ فقيل: ليس بتقليد لأنه لا بد له من نوع اجتهاد، وبه جزم القاضي والغزالي والآمدي وابن الحاجب، وحكاه العبادي في زيادته عن الأستاذ أبي إسحاق، لأنه بذل مجهوده في الأخذ بقول الأعلم. وقال القاضي في مختصر التقريب: الذي نختاره أن ذلك ليس بتقليد أصلا، فإن قول العالم حجة في حق المستفتي، نصبه الرب علما في حق العامي، فأوجب عليه العمل به، كما أوجب على المجتهد العمل باجتهاده، واجتهاده علم عليه. ويتخرج من هذا أنه لا يتصور تقليد مباح في الشريعة، لا في الأصول ولا في الفروع، إذ التقليد على ما عرفه القاضي: اتباع من لم يقم باتباعه حجة ولم يستند إلى علم. قال: ولو ساغ تسمية العامي مقلدا مع أن قول العالم في حقه واجب الاتباع جاز أن يسمى المتمسك بالنصوص وغيرها من الدلائل مقلدا. قال القاضي: ولأنه يستند إلى حجة قطعية وهو الإجماع، فلا يكون تقليدا. وهذا بناء منه على أحد تفسيري التقليد


    6. Taqleed i.e. not to follow anything that is evidence for YOU
    - For the scholar, evidence is Quran, Sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas, etc.
    -For the layman, the sole evidence is the fatwa of Mufti. THIS is the evidence of the lay Muqallid. The books of Usool are quite clear that the fatwa of Mufti for a Muqallid is like what real evidence is for a scholar. This is also the reason some Usoolis believe that a layman must do Tarjeeh between conflicting evidences and differing Muftis, just like a scholar does Tarjeeh between conflicting evidences.

    So when Aziboy quotes Ibn 'l-Hajib, realise that Ibn 'l-Hajib intended THIS meaning of Taqleed, i.e. going to a Mufti for his fatwa is not Taqleed, because the fatwa itself is evidence for the lay Muqallid. But at the end of the day, he is still following a scholar, which matters as per the verse of the Quran.

    This is closely related to the Taqleed in the 5th connotation as you can see above, perhaps even ultimately the same. You'll also note Ibn 'l-Hajib in the Arabic passage, which Aziboy quoted.


    7. Taqleed i.e. to follow another opinion.
    The usage of this meaning is found in the issue of التقليد بعد العمل - to do Taqleed post-action. The scenario is that if one intended to perform Salah on the Hanafi way, but after Salah realised that his Salah was not valid according to the Hanafis due to whatever reason, but is nevertheless valid in the opinion of the other schools, to not to repeat the Salah on the basis of the other schools declaring it valid is known as التقليد بعد العمل. Some scholars have talked about this issue and a link to explaining this can be found here:
    رسالة فى التقليد لشيخنا الشيخ سالم بن عبدالله باقطيان - ملتقى أهل الحديث


    8. Taqleed i.e. to follow an opinion outside one’s school of practice.
    This usage of the term has been sourced from al-Tahtawi of the Hanafis, who said in his notes on al-Durr al-Mukhtar:
    قلد الحنفي مالكا ثم أراد الرجوع عن التقليد أي ويحكم بمذهبه بأن المهر لا يلزمه فليس له ذلك انتهى ح واعلم أنه ليس المراد نفي جواز التقليد مطلقا بل في نحو ما ذكرنا


    9. Taqleed i.e. adherence to one scholar (or school).
    This has been used by al-Zarkashi himself (note only the last ‘Taqleed’ word):
    هل يجب على العامي التزام تقليد معين في كل واقعة؟ فيه وجهان. قال إلكيا: يلزمه. وقال ابن برهان: لا، ورجحه النووي في أوائل القضاء، وهو الصحيح، فإن الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم لم ينكروا على العامة تقليد بعضهم من غير تقليد




    Aziboy, Hammy, you need to clarify what connotation of Taqleed you are refuting. I'm sure you are not against asking a scholar. That is Taqleed definition #1! Why are you so against it then? You are just waging a war against a word! You might as well wage war against all scholars who used the term in their Usool texts and elaborated on the rules of Taqleed.

    As for what S. Albani said, I'll speak about it soon, but I'd like your thoughts on the above, Aziboy, Hammy. Have an academic discussion please. Stop doing blind Batil Taqleed of others.
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  13. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    Finally you proved that you are here to get some TRPs and spectators, cool keep it up, you are almost there.

    Such a kid you are, Keep ur Aqeedah with you.

    Salam Alaykum
  14. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    Now that was funny, batil taqleed? Rolls on the floor laughing....

    you are such a entertainer man, Thariq thanks for introducing him...... :SMILY288::SMILY288::SMILY288:

    :SMILY209: :SMILY209: :SMILY209: Brother Hammy and all,

    Listen ! Listen! we have a new Mufti here who first asks questions and then give out ruling based on Scholars and not Qur'an and Hadith.

    I've already mentioned asking Scholar is not Taqleed [blind following]

    Now, You guys believe whatever is mentioned in the name of scholars to be "Wholeheartedly" right?

    So if some Rafidah scholars tell you prostrate on some stone, you the Laymans will do it, right? why not its a Scholars Command man !! Go Ahead, Obey him

    My question to you is that "How would you verify if the particular statement made by the Scholars [may ALLAH have mercy on them] to be authentic ???

    Again you'll introduce another blind following, right? Taqleed of Taqleed :SMILY335:

    The only problem here is the word "Taqleed" and the way scholars explained it have been mistaken is what i am trying to convey.

    Taqleed is absolutely Haraam, or rather we say an Absolute Taqleed is Haraam.

    pls do the spell check Harris......thx

    May ALLAH guide us all....
  15. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Aziboy- the sooner you realize that you are behaving like a kid, the better.
  16. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Ameen


    Are you a teenager? This is the Deen of Allah, is this how a person who loves knowledge speaks? You are borderline on making mockery of the Deen. It's clear you haven't studied any of it, evidenced by your clear disrespect of it. Have some humility and shed away the arrogance.


    Taqleed is only the the Furoo` of Deen, not Usool. Your example is invalid.


    Well that is fine. Scholars have said this before. See no. 5 and 6 above. It is their terminology. Main thing is they weren't against asking a scholar, nor did they oblige evidence-seeking on the layman.


    It's just the way scholars used the term.
    a) Most said Taqleed is necessary;
    b) some said there is no such thing as Taqleed because the fatwa of the Mufti is a Muqallid's evidence, or because a layman has to exercise a degree of Itjihad to identify a scholar.

    All what you have done is done Taqleed of these scholars. By the way, they didn't say Taqleed is Haram, they just said Taqleed doesn't exist due to the given reasons.


    Thanks for the question. Why don't you tell us Aziboy how a common person would verify the statements of scholars. Your insight would be most welcome.
  17. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    You don't have the answer or what? I knew it anyways ask your present day scholars about the below hadith

    Abdullah bin Masood [ra] said
    اغد عالما او متعلما ولا تغد إمعة بين ذالك
    Be a Scholar or knowledge seeker, do not be a Muqallid in deen who is in between them
    [Ibn-e-Abdul Barr narrated in Jame Byan al Ilm vol 1 page 71]

    Are you a teenager? This is the Deen of Allah, is this how a person who loves knowledge speaks?

    Well no, I am certainly not, you were asked for Haqq earlier, yes its the Deen of ALLAH [swt], A person who loves knowledge shares it without defending their shaikhs and complicated issues.

    Do you know there is so much of Iqtilaf on Taqleed, yet you are defending it, so sad buddy.
  18. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    You haven't answered the question:

    How does the common person verify what the scholar is telling him???

    I note you believe the scholars made 'a mistake' in Taqleed:
    If they made a mistake in Taqleed, what makes them trustworthy in other matters anyway? Why do we need to go scholars anyway? Or should we only to scholars who are against Taqleed?

    The first thing you did on this thread was quote from Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen, now you're telling us he made a mistake!? With such blunders, why should we believe in anything you are telling us? You are just copying and pasting, blindly doing Taqleed of others! We won't do Taqleed of you, rest assured.


    The only إمعة on this thread has been YOU, blindly copying-pasting from elsewhere, not knowing that they go against you, and not knowing of the mistakes they made. You should get a book on Usool and study what the scholars said about Ijtihad and Taqleed. Besides, you got the meaning of إمعة wrong - it only applies to students who should become researchers but decide to 'simply with the flow' - like you in your copy-pastes.


    But your attitude is atrocious. You think Allah gives knowledge to such insincere, arrogant individuals?


    1. It's Ikhtilaf, not Iqtilaf. You appear to be an amateur trying to punch way above your weight.

    2. There was Ijmaa` on Taqleed from the time of the Sahabah. Al-Qarafi said in his al-Dhakhirah:
    انعقد الإجماع على أن من أسلم فله أن يقلد من شاء من العلماء من غير حجر، وأجمع الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم على أن من استفتى أبا بكر وعمر رضي الله عنهما أو قلدهما فله أن يستفتي أبا هريرة ومعاذ بن جبل وغيرهما ويعمل بقولهما من غير نكير، فمن ادعى رفع هذين الإجماعين فعليه الدليل

    3. Do you even know the first people who went against Taqleed altogether, and went against the above Ijmaa`? The Mu`taziltes of Baghdad! You are just doing their Taqleed!

    4. We like to defend the scholars of Islam against ignoramuses like you.

    5. What you do anyway? Ijtihad!?
  19. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    To the mods, why can't I edit my posts for slight edits?

    Aziboy, the Shimagh in your avatar indicates that you have some faith in Saudi scholarship.

    Sheikh al-Shathri wrote a whole book for you on the rules of Taqleed:
    http://ia600408.us.archive.org/15/items/waq6213/6213.pdf

    Enjoy.
  20. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    HH, there is a certain number of posts that new members have to reach before they can edit their posts.

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