The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Aziboy

Banned
Because these are acceptable terminologies that have been engrained into Fiqh for years and years, and no actual scholar disputes their usage.
Years and years, and could you tell me why they have not disputed then? Coz most of them amongst the scholars went deviated and hence they were busy promoting their own ideology of Islam, don’t you know how many deviant sects are present today in the name of Islam? Thanks to the years and years of INFILTRATIONs

Is the term "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah" given in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Is the term "Sunni" given in the Qur'an and Sunnah? Yet these are accepted terminologies used when understanding fiqh, Aqeedah, or different topics without an issue. Where in hadeeth do you see the Prophet 'alayhi salaatu wa salaam deciding that his sayings should be categorized as saheeh, mawdu', da'eef, etc etc.. ?
The terms, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah", "Sunni", saheeh, mawdu', da'eef, TURNTOISLAM, Aziboy does not exist in the authentic text, these are the names if you could know. A Muslim is brother to another Muslim by faith and not name, always remember that.
The term Sunni is used to separate the entire deviance community from the Rafidahs and a person who follows the revelation is called Sunni just to give you an example here
This is the way of Allah (sunnat Allah) with those who passed away before, and you will not find any alteration in the way of Allah (sunnat Allah). (33.62)
You realize 'sahih' is a classification - not always a set standard. One scholar might feel something is saheeh, but another may disagree based on xyz factors.
So you also doubt for Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, didn’t you get what exactly these set of books means by their very name?
You are not a student of knowledge, you are not a muhaddith, you are not someone who can cross check every source... you are a layman who has internet and a few books.
Its you whoz a Laywoman coz you believe in whatever has been quoted in the name of scholars but you don’t believe in the authentic text, bad.
If you are so much dependent on the scholarly quotes than I guess you believe in what each and every scholars says from the deviant sects based on Qur’an and Hadith which is even against the practices of Sahabas and our beloved Prophet [saw] himself…
Aziboy, my advice to you - either think about the points and reply back academically (with scholars and actual proof) - perhaps by answering the questions - or Fear Allah and stop posting your emotional outbursts because this may only harm you in the future and you may come to regret speaking without knowledge.
Sorry I cant take your advice here since you are a Laywoman and a BLIND FOLLOWER
Shaikh al-Albaani said,
“I do not know of any proof that states that blind following is haraam, rather blind following is a necessity for the one who has no knowledge.
Could you please elaborate more as to how you come to know the Shaikh Al-Albaani [ra] said the above quote, once you answer this, I shall prove you where exactly you are heading based only on scholarly quotes.

The shaikh must have quoted the above statement in Arabic, isn’t it??? So now you did a BLIND FOLLOWING of BLIND FOLLOWING….

You fear ALLAH and don't misquote the scholars
 

Aziboy

Banned
Stop Rotating, Planet thariq, we've got no Sun here

Some people who have studied for a while may be able to compare between the evidences of the scholar and based on the Usool they studied, can conclude the strongest opinion (according to their Usool) and follow it.
Like you mean, Rafidahs, Asharis, Sufis nah? what do you think is the criteria for a Muslim to judge even for a Layman like you?

If you read Saheeh Bukhaari, the narrations there have been put in that book based on the 'grading' of Imaam al-Bukhaari. So, yes you are trusting Imaam al-Bukhaari's grading of narrations and following him in that.
Oh I must thank you for introducing new word to this debate, GRADING, cool

I gave you the example of where the hands are placed. If a person asks shaykh al-Albaanee he will direct you towards the narrations that mention the placing of the hands on the chest and he deems them authentic. If you ask scholars who hold the opinion of placing the hands above the navel, they will direct you towards narrations that support their opinion and they will authenticate them.
Remember brother, When our beloved Prophet [saw] said, “Pray as you saw me praying”, that means there has to be a perfect position in which a Muslim should pray.

No one is calling for taqleed of `aqeedah. We are talking about taqleed in the smaller issues of Fiqh.
I don’t trust you for this, at one place you are obeying some scholars opinions considering yourself a Layman and on the other hand you are saying Imam Ahmad said place your hand wherever you want. So you are again confused here.
And you oppose the very fundametnal point you posted.
Tell me one thing; do you consider scholars as Masoom??? they are not isn't it and obviously they might do mistakes as well.
Relying so much of scholarly quote is harmful as I can see from the confusion that you held in and are convincing the same to our fellow readers.

I now understood that you are a LAYMAN relying so much of scholars without even verifying if the particular statment is made by the scholars or not???

Tell me now, whom would you ask or verify the quotes of Shaikh Albaani [ra]?
coz he must have said everything in arabic, isn't it and you are a LAYMAN

Again you'll ask scholar right? so even to get the rulings verified you are gonna ask, Such a Muqqallids..

:salam2:
 

Aziboy

Banned
While going through this thread, i found thought of brother Thariq which completely contradicts the Qur'an and Sunnah... that remind me of people finding for "SHORTCUTS".... there is no 4 Madhab in Islam... Here the Madhab which is acceptable is only of Muhammad rasoolAllah (saww).... Our Lord Qur'an and Muhammad (saww) sayings... this thought is a Satanic thought, "that stick to our fiqh or Masjid or Alim or anything for that matter, all goes to God (Allah)... this same thought, unfortunately can be found in Non-Islamic religions that all are God's people everyone calls to themselves i.e., towards God... whether you talk about Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism... same concept... which clearly contradicts the Qur'an and this verse Bulldozed this belief where Allah, Most High says: Chapter 5, Verse 4 "....This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion".

Hadith - Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 861. Narrated Aisha, r.a.
Allah's Apostle SAAWS said, "If somebody innovates something which is not in harmony with the principles of our religion, that thing is rejected."

Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee, rahimahullaah, said,

"That a servant meets Allaah with every sin except Shirk
is better than meeting Him upon any of the innovated beliefs."

Reported by al-Baihaqee in al-I'tiqaad (p.158)

Brother Thariq, if someone is free from SHIRK and is indulged in Bidah, than he/she is doing SHIRK in Allah's Sunnah, in His way worship as taught by our Prophet (saww), by accepting blindly the way of those which is not approved and practice of Prophet (saww) and His Companions (ra)... By following blindly, he/she is making that person as his Lord where Allah (swt) says Chapter 9 Verse 31: "They have taken their learned men and their monks for lords beside Allah......"

And This Aya is not only for Christians, but this is for us as well and till the end time this Ayaa is for all... good job brother thariq applause for you, by imposing your beliefs on others which is totally irrelevant to Islam... you do blind following why you telling others to do the same??? why confusing them....??? The people supporting you all are in favour of Muqallids like to do blind follow... Indeed the above quoted Verse is an eye opener for you all, if not, than remember than the only guidance comes from Allah (swt), not by any "Muqallids".....


:salam2: brother HAmmy,

I am a muqallid of TTI, how about u???:lol:


For my fellow readers, please beware of LAYMANs -> :tantrum1: here :SMILY32:

Chapter (9:31) sūrat at-tawbah (The Repentance)

The below Ayat is for Scholars to read:



And the below translation is for Laymans to read:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
 

Hammy

Banned
:salam2: brother HAmmy,

I am a muqallid of TTI, how about u???:lol:


For my fellow readers, please beware of LAYMANs -> :tantrum1: here :SMILY32:

Chapter (9:31) sūrat at-tawbah (The Repentance)

The below Ayat is for Scholars to read:



And the below translation is for Laymans to read:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.


:SMILY303:

"We Unite" upon the Qur'an and Sunnah, that is the Rope of Allah and it is the people who stick to it will be successful In-sha-Allah.... "We Unite" NOT with those who spread lies and kufr. Dear Readers, Brothers and Sisters, If you doubt about the Quranic Verses and Sunnah than Allah (swt) will increase your doubt and you'll end up being a "MUQALLID"....

Well bro Aziboy, I am Layman of TTI... cuz i can't speak Arabic... :lol:

And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #137)
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Feel better?

Now, brothers take time to seek knowledge. Be serious.

You do injustice to the individual soul. We are told we are the ones who will be accountable to Allah subhana wa taala. Seeking knowledge disspells all wrong. We are given tools to discover the truth. We are given rational minds.

Please do not misconstrue the Quran. Every scholar has written should they be wrong than discard what they have interpreted for they do not wish to sin.

And there are many treatise that describe how we can forgive a scholar for a mistake but keep honoring him for the entire body of thought they have illuminated for us.
 

Hammy

Banned
Assalaam walaikum,

Feel better?

Now, brothers take time to seek knowledge. Be serious.

You do injustice to the individual soul. We are told we are the ones who will be accountable to Allah subhana wa taala. Seeking knowledge disspells all wrong. We are given tools to discover the truth. We are given rational minds.

Please do not misconstrue the Quran. Every scholar has written should they be wrong than discard what they have interpreted for they do not wish to sin.

And there are many treatise that describe how we can forgive a scholar for a mistake but keep honoring him for the entire body of thought they have illuminated for us.

Waleykum Assalam wa Rehmatulla wa Barkatahu

Aapa, sister in Islam... its not about feeling better not feeling proud by proving our brothers and sisters wrong, it feels very sad when our own brothers have different opinions about Islam as Our Prophet (saww) has not left a single place for doubt, this is our responsibility if they have an opinion clashes Sunna we have to rectify it... but still people will follow their desires and instead of going and asking a scholar they prefer Sheikh Google as their Mufti.... We need to cross check whether Imam Abu Hanifa or Shafi'e or Imam Ahmad or Inb Tehmiya (May Allah (swt) have mercy on them) whether this is their statement or not, whether they changed it after saying this... As for All Gr8 4 Imams, they always said "we say one thing today, we can change our opinion tomorrow so dont follow our opinion, if we are against Qur'an and Sunnah .... This is really sad but true that we have to indulge in unncessary arguments which pleases shayateen... May Allah (swt) preserve and save us from evil talks and Increase us in Knowledge and help to maintain harmony within ourselves...
 

samiha

---------
Staff member

Years and years, and could you tell me why they have not disputed then? Coz most of them amongst the scholars went deviated and hence they were busy promoting their own ideology of Islam, don’t you know how many deviant sects are present today in the name of Islam? Thanks to the years and years of INFILTRATIONs

And now, you have just lied against the scholars. This is low and disgusting. You are being ignorant and degrading decades of fiqh because you wish to speak from your desires and name them deviators. And I hope the reality of your statements are clear for everyone to see.

Because this is nothing but a lie, even if it's an ignorant one.


The terms, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah", "Sunni", saheeh, mawdu', da'eef, TURNTOISLAM, Aziboy does not exist in the authentic text, these are the names if you could know. A Muslim is brother to another Muslim by faith and not name, always remember that.

Similarly 'Taqleed' is a NAME given to a certain action - your argument is flawed. If you are going to accept all of the former names now associated with Islam, then you should have no problem at all accepting the word taqleed and not going about arrogantly as you have done saying that it's not part of Qur'an and Sunnah and should be rejected.

The term Sunni is used to separate the entire deviance community from the Rafidahs and a person who follows the revelation is called Sunni just to give you an example here
This is the way of Allah (sunnat Allah) with those who passed away before, and you will not find any alteration in the way of Allah (sunnat Allah). (33.62)

Sunnah - in Arabic has different meanings and connotations varying on their usage - but, the fact that we call ourselves 'Sunni' is not because it was a part of Qur'an and Sunnah to do so (and in fact the developing of the term had NOTHING to do with the ayah you quoted) - but because it became a necessary term. In the same way, when fiqh developed, terms such as 'Taqleed', 'Ijtihaad', 'Mujtaahid' - these are used to describe a certain act or people.


So you also doubt for Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, didn’t you get what exactly these set of books means by their very name?

Don't try to put words in my mouth, when clearly you have no idea what I'm saying and you're just bent on arguing. Sahih bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic texts on hadeeth out there - no doubt, this is not what I'm saying, but I'm replying to this:

and there is Sahih Hadith where in we can check it,

You are referring to only two books, but saheeh hadeeth exist OUTSIDE of these two books. What about Sunan Ibn Majah? An-Nisai, Bayhaqi, Imam Malik's Muwatta - these are also very well known, and yes among them there are authentic narrations and less authentic narrations - you cannot just say you can check saheeh hadith, as if I gave you from one of these collections, it's very possible that it's authentic but not a part of either Bukhari or Muslim.


Its you whoz a Laywoman coz you believe in whatever has been quoted in the name of scholars but you don’t believe in the authentic text, bad.

And now you have lied against me. I have NO problem in admitting I am a layperson.

My arrogance does not blind me.

I love the Qur'aan, and I love the Sunnah, and all of the authentic texts. To say I don't believe in them, you have slandered me.

The only difference between you and I, is that i know my limits when it comes to recognizing and understanding texts, and you clearly do not. You are a do-it-yourself mujtahid, and this is not going to aid you brother. I follow the scholars upon the Qur'an and Sunnah, known for their piety and righteousness, who may guide me in various areas where I do not have that knowledge.

If you are so much dependent on the scholarly quotes than I guess you believe in what each and every scholars says from the deviant sects based on Qur’an and Hadith which is even against the practices of Sahabas and our beloved Prophet [saw] himself…

Continue lying and twisting the truth. NOBODY said to believe in what each and every scholar said from the deviant sects. Why do you think it's important to verify if the scholar is following Qur'an and Sunnah? To check his trustworthiness, his piety? Nobody is advocating following someone with deviated Aqeedah.

Frankly, you're speaking like this because you don't have one scholar to back you.


Sorry I cant take your advice here since you are a Laywoman and a BLIND FOLLOWER

As are you. And I don't need to be a scholar to advise.

Could you please elaborate more as to how you come to know the Shaikh Al-Albaani [ra] said the above quote, once you answer this, I shall prove you where exactly you are heading based only on scholarly quotes.

I forgot to link the entire article but here it is: http://shaikhalbaani.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/shaikh-al-albaani-on-blind-following-taqleed/

The brother who compiles these sources does so from the direct arabic text or audio, and the source is clearly quoted at the bottom. Anyone can see that this is a legitimate translation from a legitimate source and nobody but you are disputing it.

The shaikh must have quoted the above statement in Arabic, isn’t it??? So now you did a BLIND FOLLOWING of BLIND FOLLOWING….

You fear ALLAH and don't misquote the scholars

Continue grasping for straws, you have nothing else to do, and any Muslim with a bit of sound knowledge will see through this facade. You want to use blind following as if it's a bad thing into people's faces, when with these levels of knowledge, a person will either blindly follow someone upon the Sunnah, or blindly follow their arrogance and desires.

Do you even agree with the article you have posted? Because Ibn Uthaymeen has clearly also upheld the same principle regarding this topic.

Wallahi, I say fear Allah, for a day when you will be held to account for your words.

And may Allah aid you, because without it, I - nor anyone else cannot.
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
@ Aapa, wa'alaykum salaam

I know you're trying to create peace, and for that, May Allah reward you. And I appreciate the advice to seek knowledge, that's well needed.

But I think you too would agree that even though we have tools to see much of the truth, we all also have limitations regarding that.

For instance, in this world -- if we could all Google our illnesses and diagnose ourselves, and give ourselves medicine - there'd be no need for doctors right? But what is the actuality of things? When we are ill, sometimes we can google things and think, "Oh I have xyz illness" - but unless it's minor, in most cases we still have to go to a doctor to get evaluated, to be tested and then prescribed medicine sah? Why? Because through their knowledge and experience they have attained that level where they can judge what actually might be going on, that even with some of our own research, we cannot. So what do we end up doing? We in some senses blindly follow what the doctor has diagnosed because we don't know any better - or seek another doctor to see what they say.

That is like our status in Islaam, as laypeople - we have a limit of knowledge. Some minor things, we can look at the dhaahir of the text and understand it's meaning with no problems, and we feel sufficient in that. But when it comes to greater issues, and intricacies in fiqh would it not be arrogant to assume that we can just look at Qur'an and Hadeeth, through a few books, through a search and judge ourselves to be correct?

We need the doctors of Islam (the fuqaha) to set us straight and go along by their expertise and guidance, because they are the ones that have studied Islaam far deeper than we have, and have a much better understanding of Qur'an and Sunnah.

And similarly sister, when the scholars then say, if they have said anything wrong, that their words should be discarded - this is also something they said to their students sah? So for instance, it would seem really odd if in real life, you had an adult who read a few medical books go up to doctors and begin criticizing them... but it would be a whole different matter if it was one of the interns, or even another doctor who was criticizing the other doctors. This is what is meant when a scholar says if his opinions are found to be 'wrong' - that if their students, or other scholars find that what they have said is not correct, then it should be disregarded, but not that general people can all of a sudden decide 'mistakes' in their words from only having read a few hadeeth collections or commentaries.

I hope that makes sense sis? This concept is not meant to be difficult, and it's not meant to degrade us, or our intellect. But give us intellectual humility when approaching our beautiful Deen.

wasalaam
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Excellent posts by Samiha and very clear points made by her. JazaahAllaahu khayraa

Can I ask Hammy and Aziboy one simple question: Do you both believe that all of us (you, me and every other common muslim- who has not studied anything) can derive rulings, by ourselves, from the Qur'aan and Sunnah? Why or why not?

Based on that, can I take the Qur'aan and Ahaadeeth and read anything I want, without consulting any scholar, and derive rulings? Yes or No?

I would apprecite if you guys can answer that question, as I am still confused as to the points you are trying to convey
 

Hammy

Banned
Oh Yeah! nice examples for doctors but let me just ring a bell... there are 73 different kinds of doctors here... each and every one is nice and tidy enough to decieve... now which one you'll trust.. all says we are on right path... so for a blind follower which doctor he would prefer... as a layman he dont know who is right and who is wrong... there you go sis... Allah (swt) has given us understanding and reason and logic... if the person wishes to continue to fall in the trap of "desires", that person will obviously dont care about the rightly guided... Sister you are so quick in saying in bad things for brother Aziboy that he will be held for his wordings? and now again you denied that Allah (Swt) is Oft-Forgining, Most Merciful...

Brother Thariq, atleast you got some back up... lol... not denying that we cannot derive ruling fom Qur'an and Hadith, if i go and ask any scholar about an Hadith and he give me a ruling according to Qur'an and Sunnah than i am not doing Taqleed im doing investigation... Allah (swt) will help you find the truth about that matter... Cuz guidance only comes from Allah (swt) and if you say i am blind follwing that sheikh for that matter than you are denying Allah's revelation... and i am aware about that matter which was practice approved by Prophet (saww) and if you still have a doubt, than your doubt will increase... you are confused and you making others confuse and you'll remain confuse unless come out of your egg shell and investigate...

Now what about my question??? if i continue to blind following than how will i answer Grave questions? why shall i not depend on the other quotes made by Abu Hanfia (rh).??? why not i follow shia'a who says they are authentic and they are there since the time of Ibrahim (as)??? come up with some logical answers and no blind folded ones...... plsss...
 

samiha

---------
Staff member
Hammy, brother, you need to stop getting emotional and take a little time to read what is being said. Because you're not reading properly.

The first part of your post has a point, and I'm going to try to address it. Please read it patiently and carefully without trying to think of arguments okay?

Yes, there very well may be 73 types of people who claim to be doctors - but when you go to a doctors office, you look into, "What kind of doctor am I going to?" - same way, when you decide to follow a scholar, you look to what kind of scholar you are following.

Is he sound in his Aqeedah? Does he love the Qur'an and Sunnah? Do I believe he will try to follow it to the best of his ability? Do I see taqwa and piety in him? Is he trustworthy?

If these questions are answered, and your heart feels content with it, then feel free to follow him. Each and every one cannot deceive, if you decide to investigate a little.

And yes, I used the same word you did, 'Investigate'. Being a layman, does not mean that you do not have knowledge, or investigate where you take your knowledge from, it just means you are not an expert in the areas of Fiqh and you do not have the knowledge to seek in-depth discussions. Let me give you the exact definition:

Wikipedia said:
A layperson or layman is a person who is not an expert in a given field of knowledge. The term originally meant a member of the laity, i.e. a non-clergymen, but over the centuries shifted in definition.[1]

The concept of describing something in layman's terms has come into wide use in the English-speaking world. To put something in layman's terms is to describe a complex or technical issue using words and terms that the average individual (someone without professional training in the subject area) can understand, so that they may comprehend the issue to some degree.

Layman, 'laity': In short: "laity" means "common people". The English word "laity" comes from the Greek laikos which meant "of the people", "common" (common, in the meaning "unholy", "unclean" and similar). The related verb laikoô meant "to make common", "to desecrate".

Free Dictionary said:
Definition of LAYMAN
1: a person who is not a member of the clergy
2: a person who does not belong to a particular profession or who is not expert in some field

Do you claim you are an expert in Fiqh?

If not, you are a layman, and there is no shame in this. However - there is certain knowledge that is obligatory upon the layman as well, such as understanding at least basic issues of Aqeedah, so that they can do well for themselves as Muslims, and look to who they take their knowledge from as well.

So the fact that you are a layman, does not mean that you do not have any knowledge, rather it means you do not have sufficient knowledge for many things. So:

Hammy said:
as a layman he dont know who is right and who is wrong... there you go sis... Allah (swt) has given us understanding and reason and logic...

The first part is not entirely correct, and the second part is. A layman does not mean that he or she does not know what is right or wrong, every person is accountable for their deeds and actions, what a layman does not know, is how to derive a ruling from just the sources that come to hand. He does not have the ability to look at two legitimate fiqh rulings and say from just the apparent, that this opinion is correct and this opinion is wrong.

BUT on his OWN he has every ability to use his intellect, learn Aqeedah (in fact some of this is obligatory on him), see who he is taking knowledge from, and even in the middle of two opinions, take the one he feels is closer to the Sunnah.

You and Aziboy both seem to feel like once you acknowledge you are a layman, and you do taqleed, that all of a sudden this makes you stupid. This is not true. On the contrary, what is doing that is not realizing the differences between Aqeedah and fiqh (as is apparent in the 'grave questions' - these are issues of aqeedah and belief - not FIQH), and assuming that as a layman you don't have the ability to understand this basic aqeedah and judge who you take your knowledge from.

So basically you are the only ones lowering your thresholds of intelligence and exposing your ignorance in these matters. How are you going to look at all sides of a fiqh issues in depth and investigate, such that you're not doing taqleed, when these basic issues of what is fiqh and what is not is confusing?

Humble yourselves, please.
 

Hammy

Banned
I would like to start with this verse:
Sura Nisa: 4.59: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Sister in Islam, i am reading your post word by word but i dont find any logic for Taqleed in it... there is no denying about being a Layman, whilst our focus is on Taqleed...

In the above verse stated Allah (swt) clearly says "to those in authority among you... and disagree than refer it back to.... Allah and His Messenger (Saww)... so if i find that scholar is not sound... i'll go to another one and go on... until i get answer which NOT my heart feels content with it, rather it should be ACCORDING TO QUR'AN AND SUNNAH, and practice of Sahabas (ra)... and that is "Tehkeek" (Investigation), which you guys are simply calling Taqleed...

Definition of Fiqh as per the Muqallids, is the mixture of Qur'an and Sunnah... Funny thing to be noted that Muqallids themselves are doing blind following and they found this definition "Authentic" leaving Qur'an and Sunnah behind and following Fiqh, whatever they please they made according to it...

Now coming to Grave question... on one hand you telling me that a Layman is a Blind Follower and on the other you telling me that Layman has a ability to understand Aqeeda related stuff... now here, i think you would require a dictionary or might need another wiki to open to understand what "BLIND FOLLWER" means...

If i were to accept your opinions than why don't i become a Shia'a? their claims can be found in Qur'an as well... they claim the word Shia'a is mentioned around 4-5 times... no word such as "Sunni" is there than how will justify my religion??? i am blind follower i'll be forced to accept that cuz their evidence is in Qur'an.... what are your opnions on this?
 

strive-may-i

Junior Member
should we not be Seeing the entire bigger picture not just the current generation in the heirarchy?

:salam2:

Some-one in the bottom of a pyramid, gets a set of instructions.There are many levels in pyramid, and there is some amount of loss and noise at each generation (level in heirarchy).

Next, when the leader at the top also gave alternate non contradicting instructions, along with the set of instructions. gives raise to more possibility of some of these instructions not reaching some parts of the base of pyramid. So two at the bottom of pyramid would have set of instructions , with some missing.

Next, as the instructions were propagating new situations cropped up and from the essence of original instructions (and alternative instructions ), some more instructions were added by the competent one's at different heirarchies... So two at the bottom of pyramid would have set of instructions , and a possibility of contradiction arises.

How does he make sure, that this set of instructions were the same one's sent by the leader at the top of the pyramid... How does one ensure that the instructions for new situations are not contradicting the original instructions (and alternative instructions).So a clear picture of what happened where, arises for some one at the bottom of the pyramid.

When this question arises, then seeing the bigger picture and tracing it back to source, starting top to bottom is more necessary and not just bottom to top.



When one uses the word blind, it could also mean unable to see, not based on evidence, it cannot be traced back to the original, .... But that's not the case, the deen from Prophet :saw: is well preserved. There are many who possess these preserved instructions (and alternatives and derived) and can be traced back irrefutably.

The spotlight right now is on blind following (no evidence, cannot be tracked back, unable to see type). So it seems to be not best choice of word. The one being followed at a given point of time is (known/proved to be one of reliable and is approved by the trusted of last generation ) possessor of the most authentic preserved instructions (and alternatives and derived), in our generation ( in our hierarchy of pyramid ) and hence is being followed, ( ie a leader/ Imaam or Scholar). A complete traceback to the top leader in Pyramid is possible, by an unprejudiced effort to verify it.

Non Blind chain of followers: So if one runs the eye from top of pyramid (leader, Prophet:saw: ) all the way down to the bottom [current reliable Imaams/scholars], some chains are not blind. some others are. So we have a Non blind chain of followers in the entire pyramid, traced back to the leader at the top, through many generations.

Tested and Trusted following in our generation: So whats happening is that since we have someone who is time tested and proven to be best reliable source for our generation and this point of time, the trust adds up and there is an unquestioned acceptance from the leader/scholar (Imaam).
 

Hammy

Banned
:salam2:

Some-one in the bottom of a pyramid, gets a set of instructions.There are many levels in pyramid, and there is some amount of loss and noise at each generation (level in heirarchy).

Next, when the leader at the top also gave alternate non contradicting instructions, along with the set of instructions. gives raise to more possibility of some of these instructions not reaching some parts of the base of pyramid. So two at the bottom of pyramid would have set of instructions , with some missing.

Next, as the instructions were propagating new situations cropped up and from the essence of original instructions (and alternative instructions ), some more instructions were added by the competent one's at different heirarchies... So two at the bottom of pyramid would have set of instructions , and a possibility of contradiction arises.

How does he make sure, that this set of instructions were the same one's sent by the leader at the top of the pyramid... How does one ensure that the instructions for new situations are not contradicting the original instructions (and alternative instructions).So a clear picture of what happened where, arises for some one at the bottom of the pyramid.

When this question arises, then seeing the bigger picture and tracing it back to source, starting top to bottom is more necessary and not just bottom to top.



When one uses the word blind, it could also mean unable to see, not based on evidence, it cannot be traced back to the original, .... But that's not the case, the deen from Prophet :saw: is well preserved. There are many who possess these preserved instructions (and alternatives and derived) and can be traced back irrefutably.

The spotlight right now is on blind following (no evidence, cannot be tracked back, unable to see type). So it seems to be not best choice of word. The one being followed at a given point of time is (known/proved to be one of reliable and is approved by the trusted of last generation ) possessor of the most authentic preserved instructions (and alternatives and derived), in our generation ( in our hierarchy of pyramid ) and hence is being followed, ( ie a leader/ Imaam or Scholar). A complete traceback to the top leader in Pyramid is possible, by an unprejudiced effort to verify it.

Non Blind chain of followers: So if one runs the eye from top of pyramid (leader, Prophet:saw: ) all the way down to the bottom [current reliable Imaams/scholars], some chains are not blind. some others are. So we have a Non blind chain of followers in the entire pyramid, traced back to the leader at the top, through many generations.

Tested and Trusted following in our generation: So whats happening is that since we have someone who is time tested and proven to be best reliable source for our generation and this point of time, the trust adds up and there is an unquestioned acceptance from the leader/scholar (Imaam).

:wasalam:
True! it is not possible that Allah (swt) will NOT preserve his devotees from BLIND FOLLOWING.... the thought which brother Thariq has quoted to stick to one of the 4 Imams is vain and boycott the sayings of our Beloved Prophet (saww).... cuz our Prophet (saww) has told us there will 73 sects and 72 will be in Fire except for 1 Jammte-Haqqa...

The Meaning of the Prophet's Statement: "...All of them will be in the Fire, except one."

Question: What is the meaning of the following Hadith: "My Ummah will be divided into 73 sects. All of them will be in the Hell-Fire except for one sect"?

Who is that sect? And will the seventy-two sects live forever in [the] Fire, as the Mushrik will or not? And does the term 'Ummah' of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) apply to those who follow him as well as to those who do not, or is it to the former only?

Answer by The Permanent Committee: What is meant by the term 'Ummah' in this Hadith is the Ummah of response which shall be divided into seventy-three sects; seventy-two of which are deviant who practice innovated religious practices that do not constitute apostasy. Each shall be tortured in accordance to its innovations, and deviation, except for those whom Allaah pardons and forgives. Their final abode will be Paradise. The only sect that will be safe is Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, who adhere to the Sunnah of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), and hold fast to what he and his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) were holding. It is they about whom the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said: "A group of my Ummah shall remain steadfast, on the truth, victorious, unharmed by those who oppose them, and do not support them, until the death or until the Day of Resurrection."

As for those whose innovation casts them out of Islam, they belong to the Ummah of invitation (mankind at large) not the Ummah of response. They shall remain in the Hell-Fire forever, and this is the most valid opinion.

It is also said that the term 'Ummah' in this Hadith means the Ummah of invitation, which is a general term including all those to whom the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) was sent (i.e., mankind) those who believe and those who do not believe. Whereas the term 'the saved sect' is the Ummah of response, which strictly applies to those who believe in the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), trustfully, and die on this condition. This is the sect that will be safe from [the] Fire; either by prior punishment or without prior punishment, and their final abode will Paradise.


Al-Bukhari nos. 71, 3641 and Muslim no. 1920.

The Permanent Committee

Source: Fatawa Islamiyah, Vol. 1
 

Aziboy

Banned
And now, you have just lied against the scholars. This is low and disgusting. You are being ignorant and degrading decades of fiqh because you wish to speak from your desires and name them deviators. And I hope the reality of your statements are clear for everyone to see.
Bad publicity stunt sister, lied against the scholars? Remember this and store it in your mind accurately that Qur’an will never contradict with Hadiths, and no hadiths with contradict with another hadiths. I guess so far we all are clear in this.
Likewise, the ruling of the respected scholars [ra] will never contradict with Qur’an and Hadiths, and even if it does we have to respect them but follow which is correct.

A person asking questions to the scholars should not be considerably a LAYMAN like ya’ll but he/she must have had questions like why are the things the way they are? And then ALLAH [swt] directs his servants.
You lied to the Guidance of ALLAH with your mockery and calling it a BLIND FOLLOWING, but ALLAH [swt] is our Lord the one who guides

Similarly 'Taqleed' is a NAME given to a certain action - your argument is flawed. If you are going to accept all of the former names now associated with Islam, then you should have no problem at all accepting the word taqleed and not going about arrogantly as you have done saying that it's not part of Qur'an and Sunnah and should be rejected.
Don’t you have common sense, ALLAH rightly said in the Glorious Qur’an “We have spelled out Our revelations very clearly for people of common sense.”

Now, there is a huge difference in accepting a NAME or TERM and making it a part of DEEN neither it’s a part of ur DEEDs

This is where the deviants differs, they think whatever came after ISLAM is a part of Islam and following it religiously because they doubted the revelation of ALLAH and trusted their Scholars and Saints….

May ALLAH guide us and protect our Emaan…. Ameen Ya Al-Arshil Qareem!

You are referring to only two books, but saheeh hadeeth exist OUTSIDE of these two books. What about Sunan Ibn Majah? An-Nisai, Bayhaqi, Imam Malik's Muwatta - these are also very well known, and yes among them there are authentic narrations and less authentic narrations - you cannot just say you can check saheeh hadith, as if I gave you from one of these collections, it's very possible that it's authentic but not a part of either Bukhari or Muslim.
Alhamdulillah, good to know that you are aware of all these books, and yes I agreed to what you wrote next above.

The only difference between you and I, is that i know my limits when it comes to recognizing and understanding texts, and you clearly do not. You are a do-it-yourself mujtahid, and this is not going to aid you brother.
Again, you gave out ur own decision, you don’t know ur limits, that’s why you are arguing and wasting ur time here.

You are a Close-urs-Eyes and follow mujtahid, whereas ALLAH is the one who guides.

“If Allah wanted, He could have made you all one nation, but He lets go astray whom He wants and guides whom He pleases: but most certainly you will be questioned about all your actions.” [16:93]
Continue lying and twisting the truth. NOBODY said to believe in what each and every scholar said from the deviant sects. Why do you think it's important to verify if the scholar is following Qur'an and Sunnah? To check his trustworthiness, his piety? Nobody is advocating following someone with deviated Aqeedah.
Frankly, you're speaking like this because you don't have one scholar to back you.

I don’t have a scholar? How come you know that, but one thing is sure, the scholar you have must be from the Rafidahs :D
As are you. And I don't need to be a scholar to advise.
Aha, but u r a Layman already and a blind follower, and you shall neva gona be a scholar for that matter.
Continue grasping for straws, you have nothing else to do, and any Muslim with a bit of sound knowledge will see through this facade
I agree to the article I have posted but sticking to it is not recommended.

The Reason behind posting this thread was to make some really good people visiting this wondering site aware of what the matter of Taqleed is.

And the big challenge and obstacle in today’s world for a Muslim [who is striving to follow Qur’an and Sunnah] the word TAQLEED.

If some from your present times dedicated scholrs says to a layman that loving your wife means ZINA, will he adopt that word and start considering it

Open ur Eyes all of ya'll who are BLIND FOLLOWERS

And let me make it clear for the last time coz I wana wave you sister after this:

Asking as scholar does not means TAQLEED

The below ayah is not for you or me, but for the deviant scholars:
Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance) - سورةالتوبة 9:34
9_34.png


O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah . And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment.


 

Aziboy

Banned
Excellent posts by Samiha and very clear points made by her. JazaahAllaahu khayraa

Can I ask Hammy and Aziboy one simple question: Do you both believe that all of us (you, me and every other common muslim- who has not studied anything) can derive rulings, by ourselves, from the Qur'aan and Sunnah? Why or why not?

Based on that, can I take the Qur'aan and Ahaadeeth and read anything I want, without consulting any scholar, and derive rulings? Yes or No?

I would apprecite if you guys can answer that question, as I am still confused as to the points you are trying to convey
Good to see the discarded Referee taking his place in the stands and cheering for his patron

Do not outcry pls

Did you mean asking Hanafis, Rafidah, Sufis, Qadianis, Nasqbandis, Qadris, Chistis, Jarudiyah, Sulaimaniah / Jaririyah, Butriyah / Hurariyah, Yaqubiyya, Karibiyah, Kamiliyah, Baqiriyah, Nadisiyah, Sha'iyah, Ammaliyah, Ismailiyah, Musawiyah / Mamturah, Mubarikiyah, Kathiyah / Ithn 'Ashariya (the Twelvers), Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah, Zarariyah, Younasiyah. How do you know on what basis your scholar is giving out his rulings???

Alhamdulillah, I believe in ALLAH and his commandment of asking the Scholars, but for that you have to have some knowledge, and if you are asking anything in hurry like a Layman which you said you are, and if the scholars gives you the rulings based on traditions [year over year as samiha wrote] and you follow it without even thinking about it, then its a plain BLIND FOLLOWING.

Nice to have you here ......Happy Journey bro :SMILY139:

and this is on behalf of bro Hammy :SMILY139: :SMILY139: :SMILY139:

WE LOVE YOU MAN
 

Itqan Ullah

Time is Running!!
If some from your present times dedicated scholrs says to a layman that loving your wife means ZINA, will he adopt that word and start considering it

:salam2:
Brother are you sure you get the definition 'Taqleed', 'Blameworthy Taqleed' & 'Layman' which is being described here correctly? I don't think they mean Taqleed= if shaikh says crow is white, you should say crow is white & Layman= one can't even recite kalima properly.

Please try to ponder over why sheikh uthaymeen used word 'taqleed' in the article and try to balance things a bit. When we say 'salafi' I think all will agree it means following Quran and sunnah according to understanding of Salaf. but nobody objects with the Question if Salaf are Masoom?
Also read:
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=12467
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=6153
http://www.assimalhakeem.net/node/1909

@Samiha Sister, Brother Aziboy is saying what he learnt from ahle-hadeeth scholars of indo-pak (i dunno about senior scholars among them like Sheikh Wasiullah Abbas,etc though). So I think its a bit extreme on your part to call him a liar.
 

Aziboy

Banned
:wasalam:

Anyone who goes to a priest or a fortune-teller and believes him in what he says, he has disbelieved in what was sent down to Muhammad (saw)
[narrated by Ahmad]

Abdullah ibn Mas’ud radhi Allahu anhu said “We emulate and do not set precedents, we follow and do not innovate, and we will not deviate as long as we hold on to the narrations.”
(Sharh Usul Itiqad Ahl al-Sunnah of al-Lalaka’i, narration number 115)

ALLAHU AKBAR
 

Harris Hammam

Junior Member
Salam `Alaykum

I'm attending on the request of some. Insha'allah, I can benefit from you, esp. from Aziboy and Hammy.

To the pair of you - I have a few questions. Can you answer them for us?

Format will be I will quote you, then the quoted person comes forward and answers insha'allah.

Wassalam
HH
 
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