The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Aziboy, May 16, 2012.

  1. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Hmm ok.

    I wanted to point at that people may think they may have discarded Taqleed when in fact they have just departed from the Taqleed of one person to another.

    Combined with the perception that they are following 'Kitab and Sunnah', that can lead to a dangerous mix of Mu`tazili-Khariji-like tendencies when dealing with other Muslims who disagree with them.

    Almost all of these people who come out all-guns-blazing against the concept of Taqleed these days are brainwashed into thinking so, and technically they are doing Taqleed of someone else. And when they run out of ideas, they resort to another type of Taqleed - copying and pasting all sorts of articles without knowing what they actually mean.

    Some even copy articles that flatly contradict their own position! Like Aziboy quoting Sheikh al-`Uthaymeen!

    Even though if he doesn't come round to his senses on this thread, the fact of the matter is one day he will. He just needs to experience life a bit more. His finances are still his guardian's responsibility. Aziboy doesn't know what responsibility and accountability is. His intentions are misguided, and he is isolated in the world of scholarship, quoting Ibn Mas`ud as if nobody before Aziboy ever understood what Ibn Mas`ud was saying until he came along to this forum.

    My estimation is he hasn't studied any Fiqh or Usool text methodically, long enough to save himself from academic blunders that only an arrogant layman can perpetrate.

    My hope is that one day he'll at least understand where the other side of the argument is coming from.
  2. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Al-Zarkashi said in al-Bahr al-Muhit:

    فذهب بعض المعتزلة إلى تحريم التقليد مطلقا ، كالتقليد في الأصول
    Some Mu`tazilites took the opinion that Taqleed is absolutely Haram [like what Aziboy thinks], just like Taqleed [is Haram] in theology

    He went on to mention:
    ومنع منه بعض معتزلة بغداد ، كالتقليد في الأصول ، وقالوا : يجب عليه الوقوف على طريق الحكم وعلته ، ولا يرجع إلى العالم ، إلا لتنبيهه على أصولها
    Some Mu`tazilites of Baghdad prevented [Taqleed], juts like Taqleed in theology. They said, "He must learn of the way the law is established and its reason. and he should not refer to the scholar except that [the scholar] shows him the principles behind [the legal reasoning, like Aziboy thinks].

    Aziboy, Ibn Mas`ud ain't your Salaf; rather it is the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites. Get a grip pal.
  3. Hammy
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    Hammy Banned

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    Aah!!! One more Muqallid.... busy in finding spell checks and based on scholarly opinions presenting his fatwas... how can even you think of asking questions to us Huh buddy? without answering our questions you think you'll get away so easily...!!! indeed i had exhausted my attempts in asking questions to Sister Samiha, brother thariq but they are just running hither thither to answer n finding excuses and coming up with whole bunch of scholarly article without cross check and now all of a sudden a new guy... with a new account... interesting...

    i'll ask you that simple question once again... if i continue to blind following than how will i answer Grave questions? why shall i not depend on the other quotes made by Abu Hanfia (rh).??? why not i follow shia'a who says they are authentic and they are there since the time of Ibrahim (as)?? even in qur'an their name is mentioned....

    i think this is a new account created by thariq as he got caught up in his "FALSE BELIEF" so he is coming up with this... nice attempt bro.... you wasting your time bro... advise to you bro... ask some scholar don't depend upon google sheikh......
  4. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    Yep bro Hammy, this guys wasting our time Man !!! Poor LAYMANs Ooops I mean Blind Followers, or maybe Muqallids?

    Whatever, each goes for ya'll
  5. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Salam
    Hammy, I haven't even started advising you, and you come up with this absurd allegation!? You are in the need of Allah's help against your own ill-thoughts. Read Surat 'l-Hujuraat as a start.


    I think you are just intimidated. You have no response to the quotes I have brought from the scholars. I guess you agree with Aziboy that all the scholars, including S. al-`Uthaymeen, are mistaken in obliging Taqleed on laymen like you.


    1. Grave questions? Are you serious? Is it now Haram to be a Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali? Were all the scholars in the books of Tabaqaat unable to answer the 'grave questions'? Give us a list of scholars between 300 A.H. and 600 A.H. you think were on your method, come on. Just name a few.

    2. What quote from Imam Abu Hanifah? The one where he said that authentic Hadith is my Madhhab? FYI, he was talking to scholars and advanced students of knowledge, not laypeople like you who don't even understand what Adab 'l-Khilaf is. Read Ibn Taymiyyah's Raf`ul Malam to start yourself off on a good dose of Fiqhi rectification.

    3. Our differences with the Rafidis are in the fundamentals of Deen; Taqleed is about Furoo`, not theology. So your comparison does not stack up. Besides, it was the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad - whom you are following as I quoted from al-Bahr al-Muhit for you - who said that Taqleed in Furoo` is not allowed by extending the ruling of prohibition in Taqleed in theology. You are doing the same pal - "Taqleed of Rafidis is is not allowed hence Taqleed in Fiqh is not allowed!"

    I'll see what you have to say in your posts now. Until then, try to make your posts less spammy in nature. Everybody is going to forget the heat of the moment, and two years from now, people reading this thread won't be too impressed by your antics. Step up in your game, and discard your Taqleedi copying and pasting - the blindest form of Taqleed.
  6. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Digested the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites reference yet?

    You quoted from Multaqa Ahl al-Hadith in one of your posts. Do you know what the main posters say about Taqleed on that forum!?
  7. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Mods, I still can't edit my posts, but Aziboy did change his opening post when he realised that he made a massive blunder by doing Taqleed of S. al-`Uthaymeen!

    And look at his blunders:
    Ibn Hammam
    Ibn Qayyam
    Lilkai
    Zarr
    Muzni
    Dahabi


    Talk about copy-and-paste Taqleed! The blindest Taqleed is when you don't admit you are copying-pasting!

    You didn't mention anything that proves there is a difference between Taqleed and Ittiba` by the way - but you did mention this from Ibn Mas`ud:
    لا تقلدوا دينكم الرجال، فإنْ أبَيْتُمْ فبالأمواتِ لا بالأحياءِ
    Don't do Taqleed in the Deen; if you insist, then [follow] the deceased, not the people who are alive.

    So thanks for this, Aziboy, I'll make sure I follow the Salaf in their way of Fiqh, not yours.

  8. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    But you have provided zero evidence from the Kitab or Sunnah that says using the word Taqleed is Haram. You are the claimant, you bring evidence and we'll decide for ourselves without doing your Taqleed.


    You bring us the evidence that using the word Taqleed is Haram. Did you understand the Shariah better than over a 1000 years of Islamic scholarship? And you expect us to buy your copy-paste Taqleed?


    1. Why are you so against Taqleed? Since you changed the opening post and made it about Taqleed versus Ittiba`, you should know that there is evidence in the Quran AGAINST Ittiba`! It has been used for the Kuffar who end up in the fire of Hell! Now why are you running to Ittba` all of a sudden? None of the scholars in Usool 'l-Fiqh - our authorities in Deen, perhaps not yours - ever mentioned that Ittiba` exists a a sub-category between Ijtihad and Taqleed.

    2. I gave you about 9 meanings and usage for the term Taqleed. It seems that you think it only means one thing and one thing only: [following a madhab blindly]. Who blind are you!?
  9. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    But why do you as an anti-Taqleedi Muqallid copy-paster need to ask them in the first place if you are still going to judge them on the Quran and Sunnah!?

    Why don't you go directly to Quran and Sunnah? Are you lazy? I can bring you tonnes of Nusoos that prove not to follow people. You are now telling us to go to people. Why don't you discard this as well if you are true to your anti-Taqleed fetish?

    And how is a common person like you going to decide if the scholar is basing his ruling on the authentic text?


    That's a question we are asking you. You have failed to answer.


    Why do you want to use Ittiba`?


    Finally, I loved this when a brother asked why you are quoting S. al-`Uthaymeen when he goes against you - you said:
    No, you're the crazy one, blindly copying-pasting, only to realise that S. al-`Uthaymeen must be a deviant in Taqleed, hence you deleted his whole fatwa on Taqleed from the opening post!

    Now let is see how much support you have left.
  10. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    This is all nonsense, because we all know we are talking about laymen here, like you. The proof for following a scholar is in the Quran:

    Ask the people of Dhikr if you do not know.

    The terminology we use for this is Taqleed, Istiftaa', Su'aal, etc. What terminology do you use, Hammy?
  11. Harris Hammam
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    The only people who differed with Taqleed in Fiqh are the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad, then you and Aziboy. Anybody in between? Tell us, please.


    And you think 'grave questions' will consist of where you put your hands in Salah!? I thank Allah that he did not test us with the intellectual affliction the two of you are suffering from.


    ok we are making progress here. So when you as a common person who doesn't even know Arabic asks a scholar, then not only you demand a Hadith, but also its chain of narrators? That's a first.

    Have you ever opened the Musannafs of Ibn Abu Shaybah and `Abd 'l-Razzaq? You'll find ruling upon rulings upon rulings without any evidences provided. Let's discard all of this, shall we?


    Your English is terrible, I don't understand what you are saying, nor do I want to understand.


    Why are you doing Taqleed of the Hanafi Fiqh wesbite!? I would never do Taqleed of any Hanafi Fiqh website. Why do you become a Muqallid when convenient?


    Help from a scholar? Well that's what we did - we consulted S. al-`Uthaymeen, and we thank Aziboy that he provided the reference for us. Too bad that he deleted S. al-`Uthaymeen's fatwa from the opening post though!

    So Hammy, can we take the understanding of Taqleed from S. al-`Uthaymeen? Yes or no?
  12. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Sorry, we don't do Taqleed of Zakir Naik here, so there's no point quoting him. You might be his Muqallid - we aren't.

    Why are you allowed to quote ZN, but Aziboy deletes the fatwa from S. al-`Uthaymeen? Is that fairness? Is that justice? You are violating the principles of justice and fairness that have been set out in the Quran - you are violating the Quran itself. What is going to happen to you when you face the 'grave questions', I wonder.
  13. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    So when the Sahabah differed in the inheritance of brothers in the presence of half-brothers, who should we follow? There isn't any Hadith. Tell us which opinion do you take:
    - The brothers get inheritance
    - The brothers don't get inheritance

    I would like to understand whose opinion you would like to impose on the rest of the Ummah, and how you arrived at that conclusion. Your methodology is important. As if yet, you have failed to explain your method to us, because you are coming up with all this anti-Taqleed slogans yet you appear to doing the worst form of blind Taqleed - of your own ignorance.


    Are you serious? Firstly, these are not Hanafi-only fatwas. Secondly, Hidayah is not a primary source in locating the Imam's opinions. Thirdly, you are still copy-pasting, which is Taqleed. Fourthly, you seem to be based in the Indian Sub-Continent who knows nothing about non-Hanafi Fiqh; try quoting Maliki, Shafi`i and Hanbali Fiqh for a change.


    And what Da`wah are you going to give? That Taqleed is Haram? All what this poor new Muslim will end up doing is Taqleed of YOU and YOUR IGNORANCE! But if you are true to your call, you will tell the new Muslim not to even follow you, and just leave him/her with a copy of the Quran and Saheeh 'l-Bukhari - he/she should then be able to figure out how to read Salah from there, right?

    See where your anti-Taqleed ignorance is landing you - in the pits of humiliation, ignorance, and further bigotry.
  14. Harris Hammam
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    Nor does guidance come from you, a big Muqallid who loves to copy-paste. In fact, it is Haram for you to come here anyway and speak of your opinion, because if you want us to follow it, we will be doing your Taqleed, which is Haram for us. Log off insha'allah and you can save us from falling into your Taqleed.
  15. Aziboy
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    How strange your faith is, you believe and understand our respected scholars' [ra] ruling whereas there has surely came to us the guidance from your Lord which you are denying in understanding?

    You are only wasting your time here in misquoting the respected scholars, and designing our statements like Thariq did [I think u r the one] and spell checking.

    you are never gonna attain this coz you are simply deceiving our fellow readers who I am sure are now confused as to whether they should do Taqleed or not?

    Remember A Muslim revert is a person who perform enormous amount of study in Islam and then takes the Shahada and if they read your lame comments, they're only gonna laugh like we are doing always ;)

    You do not worry about our Answers in Grave brother, We are Muslims, isn't it? and we should pray for eachother rather than throwing negative comments out of arrogance.

    One thing is for sure, neither you nor we are going to agree upon what Taqleed means, coz we both have different under standing of this word...

    You ask questions rather than answering one and rely much of the scholarly Quotes without even verifying it whether they are true or not?

    You have the sense to understand the Scholars sayings whereas you are Stupid to understand Qur'an and Sunnah.

    Go read more Usul books.. and log off
  16. samiha
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    Assalaamu 'alaykum

    Brother I'm not sure why you cannot edit yet - it should be applied much earlier. I'll look into it insha'Allah, but it should appear soon for you anyway if it's because of post limitations.

    Even if these two are not learning much and decide to stay firmly upon their own mindsets, this is surely helping some, so may Allah reward you greatly.

    Silence from the rest is certainly not agreement, as I'm sure they can read and discern emotion from facts. As for Hammy or whoever saying we are running away, this is certainly not true - rather my part in the involvement in the discussion became fruitless, so alhamdulillah I would rather learn myself here.

    Brother HH, I had a question. After broaching this topic with some sisters, who also seem to be allergic to this word, they also began voicing similar concerns, somewhere along the lines of:

    So if it's okay to take from any scholar (such as Hanafi ones) - then the way the women pray in the sub-continentals you're going to say is okay?! The way they pray like dogs and stick their arms to the ground and their rukoo' is not complete, and we know all of this is against the Qur'an and Sunnah but because they are following a scholar you are going to say it's okay?

    Or what about if some person decides they want to do taqleed of Ibn Hazm's opinion on music?? You're going to say this is legitimate?

    And they won't get past that point. That if you allow a layman to follow whichever person they find trustworthy and do taqleed of them, people will take 'strange opinions' from the scholars and follow them. I've replied to this in my own way, and I've read some of your threads before. But I thought I would ask personally. Ibn Hazm's can be said to be an odd opinion yes, but what about the prayer?

    And some of this is the same rhetoric it seems Hammy and Aziboy are repeating. I don't know why this becomes such a big issue - but what's the best response to these?

    Furthermore, these women in the subcontinental areas who have learned like this, the sisters feel a 'duty' to bring them out of their 'blindness' into Qur'an and Sunnah - but how much responsibility would you say is on the layman to contradict opinions they don't feel are correct towards other laymen - or what is the method in doing so?

    I hope those make sense? I'd like to ask to clear the air, as I truly appreciate your presence here and would like to gain myself.

    And lastly brother, do you feel translating taqleed as 'blind following' is the best choice? Sometimes I feel it doesn't do justice to the word, but confuses people instead and makes them adverse to being called 'blind' - even though in some senses it is true.
  17. Aziboy
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    Wa Alaykum as salam,

    Thank you so much sister for the great concern, looking forward to here from HH.

    This is where exactly the confusion is
  18. samiha
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    Don't get me wrong Aziboy, I am asking to learn; I am not asking because I agree with what you have said. If you had asked to learn in the same way, this discussion would have gotten much further. Instead you keep pushing yourself higher and higher and making absurd claims. This is why from the beginning I've asked you to humble yourself.

    But if you want to learn, this is better for you - however, don't avoid the fact that you've been asked many questions, none of which you have answered.

    One of the greatest traits of a Muslim is acknowledging when they don't know, and then humbling themselves to learning. So unless you want to be like the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites, drop the immaturity and sarcasm and be sincere.

    I'm saying this because your attitude right now is an improvement, at least now you acknowledge there is confusion. Confusion can be cleared insha'Allah.

    Just ask with the intention to learn.
  19. Aziboy
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    I didn't get ya wrong sister, but you took me otherwise.

    and wud appreciate if you could avoid comparing me with those sick Baghdadi Mu`tazilites.
  20. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Seeking Allah's Mercy Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!

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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baraakaatuh,

    Brother, please know that I have whatsoever no intentions of offending you or that I'm picking on you for fun. But your posts have shocked me!

    I've always seen goodness in your posts and threads, and I've learned quite a lot from them, but your recent posts are not quite like you or like a Muslim. I can understand where you are coming from, but I cannot understand where all this rude childish behaviour is coming from. Even by my standards your posts are extremely rude, no, they are harsh.

    You follow the Ahlal hadeeth and you come from the sub continent, it's understandable what you think of us, even though you are no different. For you, it's the famous one liner "Taqleed is the Religion of Shaytan" and we all here, are saying we are muqallids, spare yourself and a brother. By your standards we are following the religion of shaytan and are foolish nutheads. We don't believe in that signature line so we are fine with it.

    All of us have our differences, all of us debate. Debates are good and fruitful but there is a way to debate. Your opponent is your "opponent" not your identical twin. Being rude and impolite is no way to debate. Please, do not take it personally, I don't wish to hurt your feelings. I just wasn't expecting to read this sort of posts from you directed towards some of our most respected members. To you, they may be attention seeking "Muqallids" or whatever, to us they are honorable brothers and sisters and we look up to them.

    I hope I don't come across as offensive. I just want to remind you, when you write whatever you write, bear in mind that it stay for quite sometime, perhaps it'll be on the record even after you are dead. How many sins will be added to your account because many people have witnessed this behaviour and will witness sometime even after you are not alive. May Allaah have mercy on us all. I seek his refuge from such a miserable state of affairs.

    BaraakAllaahu feek.

    Brother hammy, being a Muqallid is not an insult or an abuse. Abusive is your manner of addressing others.

    And brother I'll request you not to talk about my sister with that "See I'm the Champ!!" tone. You may have no respect for your brothers simply because they disagree with you, but you will not pick on our sisters here. You are new and seem not to know how things are here, now that you've found out, I say this place is not for you. You are under no compulsion to be at TTI. If you cannot be polite and respect our brothers and sisters 'cos we are those "Shaytan Muqallids" please log out and find yourself a forum that suits you.

    Otherwise, we'd love to have you with us.

    BaraakAllaahu feek.
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