Discussion on Deobandis

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam alaikum,

We know the Deobandi was a movement to unify Muslims and return them to the correct path. The movement was a little political but the focus turned to education more than politics. If I understand this most of the Deobandi concentrated on education and dawah.
The Deobandi have attracted students from all over the world. The link I posted actually has broken down the countries and number of students from those countries.
Although there is some Sufi thought that is not the primary directive. The Deobandi post fatawas. They encourage the growth of the community. The reasons for the expansion of the Deboandi is simply the numbers of Muslims from the Subcontinent who have migrated all over the world. Thus, it makes sense wherever there is a large group from the Subcontient you will see the Deobandi. The UK, South Africa and some parts of the US. The students come to the universities. The curriculum is classical. Students are coming from all over the world.

Back to the discussion.
 

sachin4islam

Junior Member
Salafism rotates only around Aqeedah. Deobandism stresses on spirituality. Deobandis work practically and that too at gross root level. They have spread Islam across the globe promoting Islah to Muslims and Dawah to Non-Muslims.

BTW,as far as Aqeedah is concerned I am an Ahle-Hadees.

Regards.
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
Brother,

I know majority of Indian are Hanafis, I'm Indian too but not Hanafi. Perhaps majority of Hanafis are following the creed of Ash'ari and/or Maturidi school but do you what is the creed of Imam Abu Hanifah? What is the creed as understood by all four Imams?

aslam o alaikum wr wb

Abu Hanifa says in his book Al-wassiya

"we agree that Allah is established on the throne without his needing it or resting on it and he is the guardian of the throne and all besides the throne. If He were in need, He would not have been able to bring into existence the universe or administrate over its affairs, Just as created beings cannot. If he was in need of settling on it, then before the creation of the Throne, Where was He most High? in effect, he transcendent of all this." (fiqh al akbar of imam Abu Hanifa rahimullah)
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Salafism rotates only around Aqeedah. Deobandism stresses on spirituality. Deobandis work practically and that too at gross root level. They have spread Islam across the globe promoting Islah to Muslims and Dawah to Non-Muslims.

BTW,as far as Aqeedah is concerned I am an Ahle-Hadees.

Regards.

Assalamu'alaikum brother,

I'm nothing against Deoband. I support and will defend any Islamic organisation. Aqeedah is the root of Islam, without correct understanding of aqeedah, your iman will be at stake. Spiritual may help to make your iman stronger but any deviation from aqeedah spirituality will be no use.

I've read many books about aqeedah and spoken to many sheikh, there are 3 kind of answers I'm getting from these books and the sheikh regarding our Creed:

1) Incline towards creed as per Ash'ris / Maturidi school (most books / sheikh in favour)
2) Incline towards creed of the Salaf (such book hardly available in my country)
3) Discuss both and says "the safest is to follow the creed of Salaf" (very few books / sheikh)

Then, I was convinced that we must follow the Salaf after reading following hadeeth:

"I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

"The best of people is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims)." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim- Mutawaatir. Muslim, Narrated 'Aisha - Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it Hasan in Saheeh Al Jaami' no.3288].


"The best of people are my generation, then the second, then the third, then there will come a people, having no good in them." [[related by Ibn Mas'ood] [Tabaraanee in Al-Kabeer] Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it to be Hasan. See Silsilatul Ahaadeeth ad-Da'eefah no.3569, and Saheeh Al Jaami' no. 3293.]

"My Ummah will not unite upon error." [Reported by at-Tirmidhee and Haakim - Sahih]

The best of people are my generation, then those who follow after them, then those who follow after them, then there will come after them a people who will be fat, and they will love obesity, bearing witness before being asked to."[related by the Umars, sons of Husayn(r)] [Tirmidthee, authenticated by Imaam Al Haakim] Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it to be Saheeh. See Silsilatul Ahaadeeth As-Saheehah no. 699, and Saheeh Al Jaami' no. 3294.

"Islam began as a stranger and shall return as a stranger as it began. So give glad tidings to the strangers." [Reported by Muslim - Sahih].
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
aslam o alaikum wr wb

Abu Hanifa says in his book Al-wassiya

"we agree that Allah is established on the throne without his needing it or resting on it and he is the guardian of the throne and all besides the throne. If He were in need, He would not have been able to bring into existence the universe or administrate over its affairs, Just as created beings cannot. If he was in need of settling on it, then before the creation of the Throne, Where was He most High? in effect, he transcendent of all this." (fiqh al akbar of imam Abu Hanifa rahimullah)

That's right brother.
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
Assalamu'alaikum brother,

I'm nothing against Deoband. I support and will defend any Islamic organisation. Aqeedah is the root of Islam, without correct understanding of aqeedah, your iman will be at stake. Spiritual may help to make your iman stronger but any deviation from aqeedah spirituality will be no use.

I've read many books about aqeedah and spoken to many sheikh, there are 3 kind of answers I'm getting from these books and the sheikh regarding our Creed:

1) Incline towards creed as per Ash'ris / Maturidi school (most books / sheikh in favour)
2) Incline towards creed of the Salaf (such book hardly available in my country)
3) Discuss both and says "the safest is to follow the creed of Salaf" (very few books / sheikh)

Then, I was convinced that we must follow the Salaf after reading following hadeeth:

"I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

"The best of people is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims)." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim- Mutawaatir. Muslim, Narrated 'Aisha - Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it Hasan in Saheeh Al Jaami' no.3288].


"The best of people are my generation, then the second, then the third, then there will come a people, having no good in them." [[related by Ibn Mas'ood] [Tabaraanee in Al-Kabeer] Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it to be Hasan. See Silsilatul Ahaadeeth ad-Da'eefah no.3569, and Saheeh Al Jaami' no. 3293.]

"My Ummah will not unite upon error." [Reported by at-Tirmidhee and Haakim - Sahih]

The best of people are my generation, then those who follow after them, then those who follow after them, then there will come after them a people who will be fat, and they will love obesity, bearing witness before being asked to."[related by the Umars, sons of Husayn(r)] [Tirmidthee, authenticated by Imaam Al Haakim] Shaykh Al Albaanee declares it to be Saheeh. See Silsilatul Ahaadeeth As-Saheehah no. 699, and Saheeh Al Jaami' no. 3294.

"Islam began as a stranger and shall return as a stranger as it began. So give glad tidings to the strangers." [Reported by Muslim - Sahih].


aslam o aliakum wr wb

Akhi what you said is correct so thats why i say follow the salaf vs salafi, having said that i dont want to say anything against salafi movement, but every movement has its black sheep so just know ur aqeedah and if you find someone with correct aqeedah and proper understand of islam u can gain knowledge from him, whether it was a salafi deobandi or a common muslim
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baarakaatuh,

My questions:

1) Are `Ashari and maturidi one and the same? If not, what's the difference between them?

2) Has anyone heard of the "Dahriyah"? Is it the distorted version of Zahiris?
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Baarakaatuh,

My questions:

1) Are `Ashari and maturidi one and the same? If not, what's the difference between them?

2) Has anyone heard of the "Dahriyah"? Is it the distorted version of Zahiris?

We must be scholars to understand all this. Imagine 10 year old kids playing with the theory of relativity and publishing their thoughts based on assumptions.
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Brother Tariq, just want you to clarify one thing so people don't get confused, from what i remember the tawassul through the prophet that some scholars allowed was only via the honor of the prophet ie.

Acceptable tawassul (some Ahlussnah scholars)- Oh Allaah i ask you by the honor and status of the prophet....!

Not acceptable (all scholars)- Oh prophet we ask you to ask Allah...!

wold you agree to the above?

Apologies, just realized that you asked a question directed at me.

Yes, not acceptable and is al-Shirk al-Akbar by the consensus of all the scholars. I already mentioned about this in my first post in this thread:

Azad.Ahmed: When you say Tawassul is permissible, do you mean to say that a person makes the du`a to ALLAH 'through' the Prophet :saw2: as such: "O Allah, through the station of Your Prophet...", if yes- then there is a difference of opinion on this and this is a fiqhi matter. This is the tawassul that classical scholars meant.

If you mean by Tawassul (as brelwis understand, and I really hope you don't mean this) that it means you can make du`a to the Prophet :saw2: directly. Like: "Ya Rasul Allah, give us food..." or along those lines. This would be shirk by the consensus of all the scholars.

If you meant the first, then this is not a major issue. And some of the classical scholars held the view it is bid`ah like Ibn Taymiyyah, but again as I mentioned this is a difference of opinion in Fiqh and does not need to be fought over.
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Here is a simple one to start off with: `Uluww of Allah

The Salaf affirmed the `Uluww of Allah, whilst the modern day ashaa`irah don't.

Can you explain why?

When it is mentioned that Allah is everywhere present, it means He is present with his attributes, His knowledge, Seeing, Will etc.
Not that Allah's dhaat is actually residing in the creation
The meaning is that the signs of the Power and Oneness of Allah is present in every single thing in the universe
Salafis don't have one set of beliefs. They differ amongst each other.
one of the best books on the subject is by Imam Ghazzali which succinctly explains the whole issue. It is, "A Return to Purity in Creed: Imam Ghazali's ilJam al-awwami" (www.kitaabun.com). It places the whole matter into perspective and anybody who acts on it will be safe.
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
When it is mentioned that Allah is everywhere present, it means He is present with his attributes, His knowledge, Seeing, Will etc.
Not that Allah's dhaat is actually residing in the creation
The meaning is that the signs of the Power and Oneness of Allah is present in every single thing in the universe
Salafis don't have one set of beliefs. They differ amongst each other.
one of the best books on the subject is by Imam Ghazzali which succinctly explains the whole issue. It is, "A Return to Purity in Creed: Imam Ghazali's ilJam al-awwami" (www.kitaabun.com). It places the whole matter into perspective and anybody who acts on it will be safe.

Brother you haven't answered my question.
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Ok. Bring it on....

Bring it on?

Brother I don't know if you understand my question. I said the salaf (Sahabah, Tabi`in and those who followed them like the 4 imams etc.) believed in the `Uluww of Allah and the Ash`aris don't. Why is this so?

Why do deobandis want to the follow the Ash`aris in `Aqidah and not follow the Salaf? Just like how they want to follow the salaf in Fiqh, they should want to follow the salaf in `aqidah too right?
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Bring it on?

Sorry, wrong choice of words. when i read this myself, it doesnt seem right.

I said the salaf (Sahabah, Tabi`in and those who followed them like the 4 imams etc.) believed in the `Uluww of Allah and the Ash`aris don't. Why is this so?

Why do deobandis want to the follow the Ash`aris in `Aqidah and not follow the Salaf? Just like how they want to follow the salaf in Fiqh, they should want to follow the salaf in `aqidah too right?

your daleel for the the above ??
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
your daleel for the the above ??

Sure, here is a start:

Mujahid's (A Tabi`i) statement as reported by al-Bukhari in his Sahih: He said concerning the verse
الرَّحْمَٰنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَىٰ

He said: اسْتَوَى علا على العرش
"Istawa (meaning): He above the Throne"

Bish b. `Umar made a similar statement, and said he heard from this from more than one commentator of the Qur'an: قال إسحاق بن راهويه : سمعت بشر بن عمر يقول : سمعت غير واحد من المفسرين يقولون : الرحمن على العرش استوى أي : ارتفع
(Reported by al-Lalaka'i)

And so did Abu al-`Aliyah say as reported by al-Bukhari in his Sahih: ارتفع

Al-Tabari said in his tafsir: ثم استوى على العرش أي : علا وارتفع.

That should be enough for now

Wassalamu `alaykum
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Ash'aris believe in the 'Uluww of Allah. What they and Salafis may differ on, however, is the definition of 'Uluww. The word 'Uluww is mentioned verbatim in the Qur'an with reference to Allah . Even the word "Ta'ala" (when used as a suffix for respect) has the root form of 'Uluww. One of the 99 names of Allah is Al-'Aliyy... which the root form is 'Uluww.
 

thariq2005

Praise be to Allah!
Ash'aris believe in the 'Uluww of Allah. What they and Salafis may differ on, however, is the definition of 'Uluww. The word 'Uluww is mentioned verbatim in the Qur'an with reference to Allah . Even the word "Ta'ala" (when used as a suffix for respect) has the root form of 'Uluww. One of the 99 names of Allah is Al-'Aliyy... which the root form is 'Uluww.

Firstly, I don't know why you are talking about "salafis". This is a discussion that you intiated to discuss about deobandis and we are raising issues related to deobandis. Please stick to the discussion. If you want to discuss about salafis, you are free to open another thread.

Secondly, just to make it clear: when I mentioned that the Salaf affirmed the `Uluww of Allah then I meant that they (i.e. the Salaf) believed in the Dhahir (Apparent meaning) of the `Uluww of Allaah and did not do Ta'weel or Tafwidh. They believed that Allah is literally above His Creation and above His Throne. And thus, I quoted the words of the Salaf (which you simply chose to ignore).

Can I please request you to address all the necessary points of the discussion, so that the discussion may be fruitful.
 
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