Discussion on Deobandis

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by mohammadyunus, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Yes, same. I personally don't hold the view of doing Tawassul, but as this is more of a personal matter rather than something to do "forbidding the evil" over. These are the words of the shaykh, the mujaddid, Muhammad b. `Abd al-Wahhab on this matter:

    فكون بعضٍ يرخِّص بالتوسل بالصالحين وبعضهم يخصُّه بالنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، وأكثر العلماء ينهي عن ذلك ويكرهه ، فهذه المسألة من مسائل الفقه ، ولو كان الصواب عندنا قول الجمهور إنه مكروه فلا ننكر على من فعله ، ولا إنكار في مسائل الاجتهاد
    "Some of the scholars allowed Tawassul through the righteous people and other (scholars) only allowed tawassul through the Prophet :saw2: (The shaykh attributed this to Imam Ahmad just before this) and most of the scholars prohibited Tawassul and disliked it. This matter is from the matters of Fiqh and although the correct opinion according to us is the opinion of the majority, that it is disliked- we do not rebuke the one who performs it (Tawassul) as there is no censuring in matters of Ijtihad."

    Then the shaykh goes on to say, which is very important to note:

    لكن إنكارنا على من دعا لمخلوق أعظم مما يدعو الله تعالى ، ويقصد القبر يتضرع عند ضريح الشيخ عبد القادر أو غيره يطلب فيه تفريج الكربات ، وإغاثة اللهفات ، وإعطاء الرغبات فأين هذا ممن يدعو الله مخلصاً له الدين لا يدعو مع الله أحداً ، ولكن يقول في دعائه : أسألك بنبيك ، أو بالمرسلين ، أو بعبادك الصالحين ، أو يقصد قبر معروف أو غيره يدعو عنده ، لكن لا يدعو ( إلا ) الله مخلصاً له الدين ، فأين هذا مما نحن فيه ؟

    "However, our rebuking upon those who make du`a to the creation is greater than the one who calls upon Allah Ta`ala- as he (the one who calls upon the creation) travels to the grave whilst beseeching, (like) at the grave of sh. `Abd al-Qadir or other than him and seeking for hardships to be removed, (or) seeking aid from grief, (or) seeking to attain what is desired- and where is all this from the one who calls upon Allah, sincerely devoting his (entire) religion purely for the sake of Allah (and) not calling upon anyone other than Allah and says in his du`a: "I ask you (O' Allah) by your Prophet, or by the messengers, or by your righteous slaves" or he travels to Ma`ruf's grave or other than him to make du`a at the grave but he does not make du`a to anyone other than Allah, sincerely devoting his religion to Allah; where is this with regards to what we are upon (i.e. censuring those who make du`a to other than Allah)?"

    Reference: مجموع مؤلفات الشيخ محمد بن عبدالوهاب (2/ 41) ط 1 ، دار القاسم
  2. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Just had a skim through some of the posts and I advise everyone with one thing: Please be fair and just in your criticisms and base your 'refutations' upon knowledge

    Just like you have jahil Salafis, you will have jahil Deobandis. Just because they did something, does not mean the whole group can be painted with the same brush. I have over 3 deobandi mosques around my house (all within a distance of 10 minutes walk) and I have never seen any sort of dancing, grave worship, milad al-nabi etc. Nor have I come across the main-stream deobandi scholars to call towards such things.

    I hope people research and comment on matters based ON KNOWLEDGE before labeling things as "Shirk". I hope people take this seriously and start speaking with knowledge rather than based on their 'thoughts'.

    I leave you all with a profound statement by Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah:

    قال ابن تيمية رحمه الله: "من تكلم في الدين بلا علم= كان كاذبا، وإن كان لا يتعمد الكذب.. مجموع الفتاوى 10/449
    "Whoever speaks about the deen without knowledge is a liar, even if he did not intend to lie" [Majmu` al-Fatawa]
  3. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Seeking Allah's Mercy Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!

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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    JazaakAllahu khayraa brother thariq. Those were some simple, easy to understand posts.
  4. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Brother Tariq,

    Help me out, please.

    What is it about the Deobandi that makes them so compelling and the numbers are growing? Are the Deobandi masjids primarily made up of peoples who are of the subcontinent or is it a more cosmopolitan congregation.

    What spiritual nourishment are they supplying?
  5. John Smith
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    John Smith Junior Member

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    Now where is that Hadith where the prophet (pbuh) stated that knowledge would decrease and ignorance increase? maybe that's why the numbers are growing?
  6. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Yes, you are correct.

    I might be a little slow. I need someone to explain to me what is the sweetness that is used to gather crowds. I think I understand the history of the movement. But, I do not understand the current growth. It has exploded.

    Or let me pose my question this way: What is missing in the masjids that would make Muslims turn to a movement such as the Deobandi.
  7. John Smith
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    John Smith Junior Member

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    That would depend on what Masjid you go to to be honnest or your school of thought, im pretty content with the isalm i follow its not difficult to understand the basics 5 daily prayers,Shahdah,Angels,no Idol Worship,Fasting,Charity,Hajj,beleive in the Punishment of the Grave,Heaven & Hell,pre destination,Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) final messenger etc etc.

    So ther is nothing missing but to some who would like to add to the religion they will find something thats missing,maybe bringing in a practice from thier days of ignorance?
  8. mohammadyunus
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    mohammadyunus Junior Member

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    *EDITED*
    Sister Aapa., why do you keep asking here when all that you need to know is in the links I have given?
  9. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Brother

    Please...I keep asking because the sites did not answer my questions. If they did I would ask other questions. I read the links. I read and read. But there is nothing that is simple.

    Remember, the Prophet, swas, was a patient man. He would answer questions until people understood. That is the way of Sunnah.

    Please brother, answer this for me, too...why do members start slurring insults onto others? What gives you the right to suggest to Brother John Smith to seek a neurologist? I do not understand this? I am a product of the west. We don't do that here. Where I come from we call slurring insult fighting words.
    It occurs with sisters, too. Help me with this, please.

    He simply answered a question I posed. He gave me a simple and direct reply.

    I understand the historical and political antecedents. I am unable to understand the current explosion. In simple words how did we get from Point A to Point B. What is so attractive about the Deobandi.
  10. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    All the members here are requested to respond respectfully. Any sort of insult will be removed and further warnings will be issued.

    No two person is going to agree on every single thing and if all of us are going to fight over every single thing we disagree then the Ummah will get up to no good.
  11. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Yes.

    Simple question...are the Deobandis associated with any political movements, in present times?

    The Ash`ari/Maturidi Creed...those are intellectual issues are they not. The Hands of Allah..kind of thing?
  12. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    It seems like you are attaching ignorance to Deobandis. If you did mean to what it seems, then bear in mind that you are passing a judgement on a very large amount of muslims for which you will be accountable, on the day of Judgement, for every word you say.

    The Deobandis have done a lot of good and carry on to do a lot of good. In the U.K, they are the most active community against the Qadiyanis, the disbelievers. I have not seen any community in the U.K being as active as them or even come close to them in this regard. This is just in the U.K.

    People have changed their lives and accepted Islam or started practicing through their efforts (by the permission of Allah).

    At a time, when so many people and groups started to give their own interpretation to Islam (i.e. modernists)- their community, generally, are pretty orthodox by following the Hanafi madh-hab.

    They were known for fighting against the British, when their land was invaded in India.

    In the UK they produce the most number of Huffaz (memorizers of the Qur'an).

    And much more. These are what I can think of, where they have outdone the salafis, brelwis etc.

    Yes, you are missing a lot of things. How do you pray your 5 times prayer? How do you give zakah? How do you fast?

    Yes, the basic belief of every Muslim is to believe in the 6 pillars of Eman (Belief in Allah, the angels, His Books, His Prophets, The day of judgement, The Divine Destiny) and perform the 5 pillars of Islam. But each pillar of Eman and Islam have very deep details attached to it, so it is not as simple as you make it out to be.
  13. John Smith
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    John Smith Junior Member

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    Can someone tell me where the influence came from for the founders of Deobandi sect?
  14. Tabassum07
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    Tabassum07 Smile for Allah

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    :salam2:

    Here's another question to throw in: Why do they call themselves Deobandis anyway? Why not just muslims? Do they *need* to have a separate name, if they're on the right aqeedah?
  15. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Wa `alaykum salam wa rahmatullah

    It's just that their scholars are from Deoband and they have certain principles like: A person HAS to follow a madh-hab and he has to follow the Ash`ari/Maturidi `Aqidah.

    I personally, only have issues with Ash`ari/ Maturidi `Aqidah (which many of their scholars ascribe to)- although there are deobandi scholars who disassociate from that as well. So, we cannot generalize the issue of `Aqidah here.

    One thing you need to remember as well is that most of the people who go to Deobandi run masajid, don't have clue about Ash`ari/Maturidi or anything else.
  16. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    Assalamua`alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    Brother Thariq, I'll just be perfectly honest and blunt here. Hope you don't mind, inshaa Allaah.

    Basically are you saying that it's OK to follow the Deobandi? What is your stance about this matter since many are asking you? Not that one's stance is important but I just fear that the members here understand it differently than to what you really want to convey. That's the point to highlight: people understand it differently (let alone, wrongly) with what you are trying to say.

    Also because as a mod who many look up to in this site (I know it's not something that the mods wish, but it's just a given that the mods are supposedly more knowledgeable than the other members here) and have influence, people who might be totally ignorant on an issue can sometimes just conclude by saying, "OK, this mod said A, so I'll just follow him since I trust him".

    So yeah, kindly give a detailed, understandable stance on this issue to clear things up.

    BarakaAllaahu feeka.

    Wa`alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullah.
  17. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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  18. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Wa `alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullah

    I don't recall alluding to that. Rather what I am requesting members to do is to criticize based on knowledge and clarity. One cannot simply make tabdi' on an ijtihadi matter (the issue of tawassul through the Prophet :saw2:).

    I already mentioned that I have issues with certain deobandi principles, like being Maturudi in 'Aqidah.

    Wassalamu 'alaykum
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  19. Abu Talib
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    Abu Talib Feeling low

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    Wa`alaykumassalam

    They call themselves that to differentiate themselves from Barelvis in India. Barelvis are opponents to deobandis as they don't propagate going to shrines etc
  20. user expired!
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    Brother Tariq, just want you to clarify one thing so people don't get confused, from what i remember the tawassul through the prophet that some scholars allowed was only via the honor of the prophet ie.

    Acceptable tawassul (some Ahlussnah scholars)- Oh Allaah i ask you by the honor and status of the prophet....!

    Not acceptable (all scholars)- Oh prophet we ask you to ask Allah...!

    wold you agree to the above?

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