Dawah with a Born-Again Christian

[TheHumbleWun]

Hello Blackivy,

Please read carefully:

maybe i used the wrong tense, when you get to heaven you will see God and then see what he looks like.

If you say Jesus is God, then what about the people who witnessed and saw him during the time when He was alive? They must of seen & touched him, correct? I guess they were lets say more "advantaged" than you. Why would God reveal himself to some but not to you or the rest of humanity? Is this a Fair & Just God?

You said the following to brother Bluegazer in your post #221:

so when you think about going to heaven to see God, we call that God the father , when God interacts with humans but humans cant see him - we call that holy spirit, spirit - is a being you cant see, holy because its God invisible i.e God talking to abraham, and Jesus - God at a level you can see. so its the same person- you hear them on the phone (holy spirit), you see them in person at your house( Jesus), you go to visit them at their own house(God the father) same person , 3 ways of interacting

You are incorrect with your above statement.

If you believe Jesus is God, then what do you call someone during the time of Jesus (pbuh) who lived, saw, and interacted with him???

With those questions in mind - I asked you in post# 226:

If you know what God looks like doesn't that take one of the most important purposes of life away?

If you knew what God looked like, it would make us weak humans not have that drive, thirst, & curiosity to further worship the Creator. Of course the purpose of life is to worship God, I am merely saying, if you knew what God looked like, people would strive less to worship Him. Not knowing what God looks like is a motivation factor of faith and striving harder to do good and finally be able to see the Creator (your reward). I hope you understand what I'm saying.

In your post #230 to Sweet Insanity, you said:

Mary was not higher than God, she just gave physical human birth to Jesus

Your very own statement says that Jesus was a human not God! If you are given a physical human birth then you are a phyiscal human being!

shed his body and go to the realm of the dead take on all of mankinds sins, so that if they believed God served their punishment for sins, God did.

How can a physical human being die for another physical human beings sins? Is a person in Africa responsible for the sins of someone lets say in New York who committed murder? The two has never seen or talked to each other ever. You see, Islam says every individual is accountable for their own thoughts & actions.

"Every individual is a pledge for that which he has earned" (52:21)

"No burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another" (53:38)

"One Day every soul will come up struggling for itself, and every soul will be recompensed (fully) for all its actions, and none will be unjustly dealt with." (16:111)

And to every soul will be paid in full (the fruit) of its deeds; and Allah knoweth best all that they do" (39:70)

You also said to me in your post# 226:

and if man is not perfect, and can never be perfect, a sinless prophet is a contradiction to the existence of mankind

Of course human beings are not perfect, man knows that himself. The Quran states:

"Man was created weak" (4:28)

You see God doesn't need to physically reveal to humans that we are not perfect, every human being knows that. God does not need to come in as a physical human being to prove man is not perfect (or to die for his sins); man already has knowledge of this. Therefore; it's a weak arguement to say Jesus died for your sins.

You are incorrect about prophets as well. Prophets were sinless.

Prophets of God, are people selected by God Himself to deliver His message to mankind. The Muslim belief that Prophets are sinless primarily relates to the fact that the Prophets of God delivered His message in its purest form. They did not add anything to it, on their own, and neither did they hold anything back from it. The Quran says that because Muhammad (pbuh) is a true Prophet of God, therefore, if this true Prophet falsely ascribes something to God, he shall then be punished like no other individual. The Quran says:

"Had he invented lies concerning Us, We would have seized him by the right hand and severed his heart's vein; and no one from amongst you could have protected him (from Us)" (69:44-47)

The Quran also tells us that to supervise the unadulterated deliverance of the message, the prophets are closely observed by God. It says:

"As for the messengers whom He has chosen, He guards them from the front and from behind to make sure that they have delivered the messages of their Lord" (72:27-28)

Besides this, Muslims also believe that because God Himself, on the basis of His all encompassing knowledge, selected these prophets for delivering His message and to become a model for their followers, therefore these prophets must have been the best of mankind living in their particular times and societies. But this does not mean that the prophets do not commit any mistakes. Mistake, as we know is not synonymous with sin. These prophets may commit mistakes, which are corrected by God, but these mistakes are not sins. Even these mistakes are in the way of righteousness.

 

[Sweet Insanity]

Jesus didnt come back as the holy spirit because in chrisitian belief Jesus resurrrected he came back from the realm of the dead, reinhabited his body was seen by some people and went to heaven whole.

Jesus was the tribe of Judea, direct descendant of david. Judaism is the religion that belonged to the people from this region; there was only Jews, some believed that the messiah had appeared(later called xtians) and some didnt. some people who were not ethnically Jewish seen i like this new version of Judaism, and when people started converting than they as well started to feel discrimination as if they were ethnically Jewish; this is where this desire to have a unique identiy started. because xtians dont believe you have to follow mosaic law in order 2 guarantee salvation, but all still practiced, but later mixed with the politics of making the religion appear simple and not wanting to be discriminated as Jews; some made sure to be more unique. and after the destruction of the 2nd temple there was no 1 place of worship, relations fell out. and plus you just have the childish jealously of people wanting to be the chosen people of God first. because we believe Jews are the chosen people of God- the tribe God choose to interact with; and has Chrisitans you become part of this family as well, but people want to be part of the club first etc etc. its pretty common knowledge now about the separation of the early church from judaism, thats why now its becoming popular for xtians (mostly protestants) to do haunkkah, wear the israel flags, buy tefillin or ram's horns because they're going back to the roots of xtianity. theres many documentaries and books about it out now. throughout the whole bible, it talks about you have to be nice to Jews spirtually they're our older brother but he always getting beaten up by other people, so we got help them since its more of us, we know we totally worship God becasue of the Jews; if it wasnt for struggle, Jesus couldnt of even been birth into existence throught the tribe of Judea. and of course there are always different governments that had political agendas that fronted under the claim of religion in order to gain political/social/and economic backing; we all know the story about that. but now xtians, are becoming part of the family again, why you ask because when we help Jews in any kind of way here in US/europe or Israel, or wherever terrorist want to kill the Jew and us too, its like old times again lol.


Jesus was resurrected , he reinhabited his body, no he wasnt a ghost or see through; everyone was hand-fiving him. Mary was not higher than God, she just gave physical human birth to Jesus, which i believe is not yet to be a supernatural act; she didnt have life any easier, she didnt get any special powers, she didnt get any special abilities, she didnt even become rich.

in each realm, there are certain rules, this is also certain things we are capable of doing and not doing because we are human. one of these cant-do things is come into direct presence of God. God is perfect anything less will get drestroyed, anything coming in human form will be destroyed, your human body is even so awful when you die it must be left here unless it is perfect(sinless). lets say Jesus is like i want to go to my own house(heaven) and just think, leave this realm go back home for a quick second, o wait he cant because hes in awful human body which plans on taking on all of mankinds sins,before you go to a very nice place

its like a CEO of a company he's rich and dresses nice, goes to the places he owns very upscale, where everyone else has to pay to enter, he gets in for free. he decides maybe to pretend to be homeless for a week(lesser than what he is) looks very poor, very different and tries to enter this very upscale place; bouncer says wheres your money. CEO says what are you talking about i own this company. Bouncer says doesnt look like you own this company, plus you look to messed up,you have to pay to enter like everyone else. if someone pretending to be homeless but than is going to 5 star hotels, 5 star this in that and is not doing everything homeless people do, than you're not really living as a homeless. you kind of get now, God is not going to break the rules he has set for mankind if he's trying to live as human

well i guess u need to tell the churches in new zealand to preach the religion properly because thats what they told me.

how can u believe someone gave birth to God? isnt that even a bit weird to u? lol

well what did people do with his body after he was killed? was his body still there when he came back?

and r u saying that the Christianity preached nowadays was the Judaism preached back then?

plus, Jesus (PBUH) had very close friends.. is God choosing favorites now?

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello Elizabeth [blackivy393],


You wrote the following paragraph in post#226:

if you look at the history for the penalty of sins, certain sacrifices commanded by God had to be performed, and this was a blood sacrifice done at the temple(wailing wall currently in Israel). the punishment of sins is death and separation from God, but then he realized that no matter how hard mankind tried, they would never make it; but a rule is a rule. so God decided as long as a human said he would try his hardest to do good , God could would come to earth live a human life( not be tempted and fall to the devil, do what adam couldnt do in the garden of eden), shed his body and go to the realm of the dead take on all of mankinds sins, so that if they believed God served their punishment for sins, God did.

The following phrase is from the above paragraph. I have coloured a certain part of it in red and set it in bold type [like so]:

the punishment of sins is death and separation from God, but then he realized that no matter how hard mankind tried, they would never make it;

Tell me, Elizabeth, how is it that God Almighty -the All Knowing- did not already know that "that no matter how hard mankind tried, they would never make it"??


The Almighty only knew that suddenly around two thousand years ago [the time of the birth of Jesus, peace be upon him]?


Don't you find it a blasphemy to believe that God Almighty did not know that humans would "never make it" and then suddenly He "realized" this later on??!!


I seek refuge with the Almighty from all such blasphemous beliefs.

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother TheHumbleWun,


I hope that you and your family are in good health, and may Allah reward you for all your efforts -in the propagation and defense of Islam- in this life and the Hereafter.


Aameen.


You wrote the following in post #242 [addressing blackivy393]:

You are incorrect about prophets as well. Prophets were sinless.

And:

But this does not mean that the prophets do not commit any mistakes. Mistake, as we know is not synonymous with sin. These prophets may commit mistakes, which are corrected by God, but these mistakes are not sins. Even these mistakes are in the way of righteousness.

I would be very grateful if you could read a post of mine on another forum that dealt with this matter. It would be great if you could read the whole post, but if you're in a hurry, then please read the middle part only [the part after the first set of equal signs "==============================="]:

http://www.imanway.com/en/showpost.php?p=16715&postcount=2


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[beliefinone]

i know what you are trying to suggest that the trinity is something that has been fabricated because in 1 John 5:7-8, depending on the translation of which bible you had, sometimes, Holy ghost, is said, or the holy spirit, water; Jesus is either called son, blood or messiah or word. its different translations. and no the trinity is not just based on this scripture, its deeper than that

Yes, you are right it is much deeper. The trinity is not just based on the scripture. In fact, it is much deeper!!! It's based on man, a group of men to be exact that had the power and authority to implement such a thought. Wow, the obviously successfully deceived millions!!!

Great info brothers and sisters!


Five times a day
:tti_sister:
G

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Assalamu Alaikum brother TheHumbleWun,


I hope that you and your family are in good health, and may Allah reward you for all your efforts -in the propagation and defense of Islam- in this life and the Hereafter.


Aameen.


You wrote the following in post #242 [addressing blackivy393]:




And:




I would be very grateful if you could read a post of mine on another forum that dealt with this matter. It would be great if you could read the whole post, but if you're in a hurry, then please read the middle part only [the part after the first set of equal signs "==============================="]:

http://www.imanway.com/en/showpost.php?p=16715&postcount=2


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

Salaam akhi,

I am happy to still see you around. I enjoy reading all your posts. May Allah reward you for your dedicated work.

Jazakallah khair for the link. I've read it. Quite interesting I must say. It's true the prophets (peace be upon all of them) were infallible in regards to conveying the message of Allah swt and major sins (associating partners to Allah swt, adultery, etc) and it's true that the Prophet Adam (pbuh) did commit a minor sin but he repented quickly and God forgave him, for Allah is Most-Forgiving & Most Merciful. The Prophet (pbuh) did make a mistake in reagards to some wordly matters such as agriculture (to which he was entitled to his own opinion) but did not make mistakes in regards to religion.

There is a lesson here, even in these minor sins and mistakes, the Quran shows that we humans are weak and imperfect.

I found the following message in the fatwa very enlightening:

Repentance brings forgiveness of sin, and does not contradict perfection or bring blame upon a person

Thank you again brother Bluegazer.

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother TheHumbleWun and sister mirajmom,


I thank you both for your kind words in your last posts. I ask Allah the Almighty to increase knowledge of His religion in all of us, accept our deeds and forgive us our sins.


To TheHumbleWun: I thank you for taking the time to read the link I gave you. I'm glad you benefited from it.


Regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[blackivy393]

well i guess u need to tell the churches in new zealand to preach the religion properly because thats what they told me.

how can u believe someone gave birth to God? isnt that even a bit weird to u? lol

well what did people do with his body after he was killed? was his body still there when he came back?

and r u saying that the Christianity preached nowadays was the Judaism preached back then?

plus, Jesus (PBUH) had very close friends.. is God choosing favorites now?

i think maybe thing would be for people to watch the veggie cartoons and christian cartoons in order to get it in a very simple way. after jesus died on the cross he was takin down, put in a room with a big boulder. after 3 days the boulder got pulled back by angels, people seen him walking around up to about 500 people did etc etc.

im saying chrisitians followed the laws of the jews and believed jesus was God, worshipped in synagouges and temples, before the establishment of the modern day church/christian that started during the time of constantine. everyone has friends on earth are they picking favorites when you have people you talk to all the time. no but God does play favorites when it comes to those who believe in him, God provides for those follow the way of the torah/bible.

 

[blackivy393]

Yes, you are right it is much deeper. The trinity is not just based on the scripture. In fact, it is much deeper!!! It's based on man, a group of men to be exact that had the power and authority to implement such a thought. Wow, the obviously successfully deceived millions!!!

Great info brothers and sisters!


Five times a day
:tti_sister:
G

well than i guess muslims really shouldnt be going around boasting that the quran agrees with the bible/torah "that has be so severly altered" by man; since the "real bible" has yet to be found

 

[blackivy393]

Hello Elizabeth [blackivy393],


You wrote the following paragraph in post#226:




The following phrase is from the above paragraph. I have coloured a certain part of it in red and set it in bold type [like so]:




Tell me, Elizabeth, how is it that God Almighty -the All Knowing- did not already know that "that no matter how hard mankind tried, they would never make it"??


The Almighty only knew that suddenly around two thousand years ago [the time of the birth of Jesus, peace be upon him]?


Don't you find it a blasphemy to believe that God Almighty did not know that humans would "never make it" and then suddenly He "realized" this later on??!!


I seek refuge with the Almighty from all such blasphemous beliefs.

well maybe i should of not said then realized, God always knew because some type of sacrifice has always been established for the forgiveness of sins, because humans have always been deemed as having a sin- like nature(originial sin)

 

[blackivy393]

There are 15 versions of the Bible in English that do not contain the phrase ""in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" in the main text of 1 John 5:7, and that doesn't bother you?


It's a clear case of forgery.


And one should not base his or her salvation on a Book that devout Christians themselves [i.e., the editors of the 15 versions and the Churches that back many of them] admit contains fabricated verses.

modern versions dont contain the exact words, but we do have the manuscipts of the ones that do.
its just like how in the bible when someone stated they had intercourse with them, they said they knew them; if someone updates the bible or translates it and puts well samuel had sex with joann. thats not changing the meaning but updating the language, but for some people i guess that demonstrates a forgery.

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello Elizabeth,


No knowledgeable Muslim would go around and say that the Qur'an totally agrees with the Bible. There are similarities, and there are differences.


If a Biblical verse is in accordance with a Qur'anic verse or an authentic saying of the Prophet [peace be upon him] then we believe in it. If a Biblical verse is not in accordance with a Qur'anic verse or an authentic saying of the Prophet [peace be upon him] then we disbelieve in it. If a Biblical verse neither supports nor goes against a Qur'anic verse or an authentic saying of the Prophet [peace be upon him], then we Muslims are neutral; we neither believe in these verses nor do we disbelieve in them.


There's an excellent article by an English convert to Islam who's name is Abdur Raheem Green. He used to be a Catholic. Please click on the following link to read it:

http://www.islamsgreen.org/islams_green/2006/03/quran_as_furqan.html


Regards,

Bluegazer

 

[blackivy393]

And if you think that's the only case of fabrication, then you'd better think again.


You know the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11], where Christians for many centuries believed that Jesus [peace be upon him] said "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" and " "Then neither do I condemn you"?


You know what the New International Version says about this story?:



Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearc...John+7:53-8:11&niv=yes&display_option=columns


If you want to know about the other versions of the Bible that say the same thing, then click on the following link:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153171&postcount=126

if one is looking at site thats not from some type of scholar website or university, museum; that actually posses the oldest copies of bible/torah that is in existence i probably wouldnt believe it. does everyone remember da vinici code, and how that whole story goes.... was that guy who wrote it a scholar no......... did the guy ever look at real secret manuscripts.......... or orignial........ text prob not. because since the original texts arent in english. because in order to view and analyze the originals in world possessionyou must know, hebrew, aramic,latin,greek, etc and not its modern version, what was spoken at that time. so i wouldnt believe some person on tv you see on tv who knows a little bit of arabic and english

 

[Bluegazer]

I have a request, Elizabeth.


1- Do you consider the editors and all the scholars who worked on the NIV [New International Version] as "some person on tv you see on tv who knows a little bit of arabic and english" ??


I find that very strange since you own a copy of the NIV Bible. So, when I post to you from the NIV that the Story of the Adulteress is not found in the earliset manuscripts, why don't you accept that?


2- Let's just assume that you totally lost all confidence in the NIV, do you consider the Vatican [and its Secret Archive] as a "scholar website or university, museum; that actually posses the oldest copies of bible/torah that is in existence" ?

 

[blackivy393]

like i said , if you dont have the credtentials or even knowledge would take a lifetime to be fluent in the languages of the ancient world, in thus how would you even be able to read the originial manuscripts in order to see what is and isnt there

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello Elizabeth,


In response to my post #238 you wrote the following in post #252:

modern versions dont contain the exact words, but we do have the manuscipts of the ones that do.
its just like how in the bible when someone stated they had intercourse with them, they said they knew them; if someone updates the bible or translates it and puts well samuel had sex with joann. thats not changing the meaning but updating the language, but for some people i guess that demonstrates a forgery.

I totally disagree with you.


It's not a case of translating an existing phrase in a different way. The phrase itself -"in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth"- is just totally missing from the main text of 1 John 5:7-8..


Here's an example of an old English version of the Bible [whose editors had no access to the oldest manuscripts of the Gospels] and a newer English version. Note the parts I colour red and set in bold type in the old version [like so] and note how it's missing in the newer version:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:7-8 (King James Version)

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5:7-8&version=9

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: [a] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Footnotes:

a. 1 John 5:8 NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

1 John 5:7-8 (New King James Version)

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5:7-8;&version=50;


I'll post the last sentence of the footnote -about the phrase "in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth"- again:

Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

It's not a case of a different translation. The whole phrase is missing from the earliest manuscripts.

 

[blackivy393]

Hello Elizabeth,


In response to my post #238 you wrote the following in post #252:




I totally disagree with you.


It's not a case of translating an existing phrase in a different way. The phrase itself -"in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth"- is just totally missing from the main text of 1 John 5:7-8..


Here's an example of an old English version of the Bible [whose editors had no access to the oldest manuscripts of the Gospels] and a newer English version. Note the parts I colour red and set in bold type in the old version [like so] and note how it's missing in the newer version:



1 John 5:7-8 (King James Version)

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5:7-8&version=9






1 John 5:7-8 (New King James Version)

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5:7-8;&version=50;


I'll post the last sentence of the footnote -about the phrase "in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth"- again:




It's not a case of a different translation. The whole phrase is missing from the earliest manuscripts.

eitheway since you keep trying to drill this, whats your point you trying to "prove" that the bible is forgery because one word is missing, or trinity is forgery because one word is missing ?

 

[Bluegazer]

In post #256 you said:

like i said , if you dont have the credtentials or even knowledge would take a lifetime to be fluent in the languages of the ancient world, in thus how would you even be able to read the originial manuscripts in order to see what is and isnt there

Do you think that the International Bible Society [which sponsored the New International Version] would not employ scholars who were fluent in the ancient languages and who would study the earliest manuscripts?


The NIV itself said:

((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))

Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearc...John+7:53-8:11&niv=yes&display_option=columns


And if you suddenly lost all confidence in the NIV [although it's the version of the Bible you currently use], then how about the following [from the official Vatican website] ?:

17 [⇒ 7:53-⇒ 8:11] The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after ⇒ John 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after ⇒ Luke 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Luke 21:but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to ⇒ Jeremiah 17:13 (cf the note on John ⇒ John 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in ⇒ John 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXF.HTM


The above is from the New American Bible and found on the official website of the Roman Catholic Church.


Is that good enough for you?

 

[Bluegazer]

In post #258 you wrote:

eitheway since you keep trying to drill this, whats your point you trying to "prove" that the bible is forgery because one word is missing, or trinity is forgery because one word is missing ?

So, it's alright for one word to go missing from the Book of God?


And who says it's one word?


The missing phrase is "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth"


That's 24 words.

 

[Bluegazer]

And let's not forget that the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11] is definitely not one or twenty four words. It's a whole lot more than that.