Dawah with a Born-Again Christian

[Bluegazer]

Thank you, Elizabeth, for your explanation.


There are a lot of things that could be said regarding what you posted. However, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Therefore, I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I will rephrase my question:


Do Christians believe that the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" [found in 1 John 5:7-8 according to the King James Version] is part of the Holy Scriptures?

 

[Bluegazer]

I know this question [even after I rephrased it] might seem very strange [frankly it might sound stupid to most Christians], but I'd be very grateful for your answer.

 

[justoneofmillion]

jews and christians join the muslims in prayer

born-again christians are people who have left the traditional christianity and born-again with the Spirit of God!! These people claim that they have different "gifts"..such as talking in different languages, having visions, intrepreting dreams and visions etc...

Hope it clarifies...

walaikum assalam

:salam2:[yt]HualOlrlksY[/yt]
spirit or not this how the prophets prayed all of them sister
allah swt guide us all

 

[TheHumbleWun]

the word would be jesus christ. in christian belief the word of God or what God says becomes flesh. as we know someone's words or thoughts is something that is part of that person and if not documented or expressed essentially doesnt exist to anyone else. with the history of God's interaction with mankind; man has never seen God, touched God etc; because his essence is too perfect.God could answer your prayers and talk back, but man could not see God and at a point in the bible only one person could even come into the presence of God on earth, the high priest at the temple.

since humans are naturally physical people, meaning they need love, touch - this is even how young infants thrive; development is delayed if this doesnt occur. we believe Jesus , who we believe is God incarnate( not a reincarnation of God but God himself) came in a form we could tolerate, so when we get to heaven, we can hug God, look him in the eye, get close to him and it not destroy our essence, its personal. i.e when an adult is talking to a child they kneel down so they can connect with them, its a personal connection. thats why you will hear xtians say i have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ ( God) ill be able 2 look him in the eye, give him a hand five w/e.

so when you think about going to heaven to see God, we call that God the father , when God interacts with humans but humans cant see him - we call that holy spirit, spirit - is a being you cant see, holy because its God invisible i.e God talking to abraham, and Jesus - God at a level you can see. so its the same person- you hear them on the phone (holy spirit), you see them in person at your house( Jesus), you go to visit them at their own house(God the father) same person , 3 ways of interacting

Hello BlackIvy,

No disrespect, but I find your statements puzzling and confusing.

Let me get this right, so you know what God looks like, right? You must of, because Christians have these so called (various & different) "pictures" of Jesus (pbuh) in their homes. Just curious, do you have "pictures" of Jesus in your home? If you know what God looks like doesn't that take one of the most important purposes of life away? Let's go back in time now, so when the first Christians saw Jesus, whom they thought was God, they must of seen him, touched him, right? This goes against what you said on top.

Before Christianity, what did the messengers before Jesus (pbuh) say about God? If you say Jesus (whom you call God) sent messengers before himself, then what did he have to prove that the other messengers couldn't?

I'm sorry if I overwhelmed you with questions. I will be more than interested to read your thoughts.

You see, Islam is very simple. God is not a creation (human being) but a Creator.

 

[blackivy393]

Hello BlackIvy,

No disrespect, but I find your statements puzzling and confusing.

Let me get this right, so you know what God looks like, right? You must of, because Christians have these so called (various & different) "pictures" of Jesus (pbuh) in their homes. Just curious, do you have "pictures" of Jesus in your home? If you know what God looks like doesn't that take one of the most important purposes of life away? Let's go back in time now, so when the first Christians saw Jesus, whom they thought was God, they must of seen him, touched him, right? This goes against what you said on top.

Before Christianity, what did the messengers before Jesus (pbuh) say about God? If you say Jesus (whom you call God) sent messengers before himself, then what did he have to prove that the other messengers couldn't?

I'm sorry if I overwhelmed you with questions. I will be more than interested to read your thoughts.

You see, Islam is very simple. God is not a creation (human being) but a Creator.

maybe i used the wrong tense, when you get to heaven you will see God and then see what he looks like. no the pictures going around people have is not accurate, because portraits were not done in that day. no i dont have pictures of Jesus, thats more of a catholic thing, protestants tend not to have pictures, you cant make a graven image of God . "you know what God looks like doesn't that take one of the most important purposes of life away?" the most important purpose of life is to worship God and live a Godly lifestyle.... so what are you referring to? What did the prophets say about God before the coming of Jesus, check the whole old testament.

well if you're asking what did Jesus do in order to distinguish himself as not just being a prophet and showed himself asGod. there are list of prophecies that the messiah is to complete, prophesized over 1500 years + before christ, psalms which is written over 1000+ years before christ, describes a crucifixion ( yes this 1000+ version is in the worlds posession currently) qualities etc. there are also a list of prophecies, Jesus has yet to fulfill- the prophecies which the main identifications for the Jews, for them to recognize the messiah. God is separate from his creation but he can walk, live and interact among it; as christians we dont say what God can't do, we'll say what he said he wont do. but someone saying well God is not going to become human because he cant, is someone putting themselves in possesion of being higher than God. and if man is not perfect, and can never be perfect, a sinless prophet is a contradiction to the existence of mankind. there is a passage in a bible, to paraphase Jesus was stating you should only worship God, and a man fell down and started worshipping him, and he did not correct this man or tell him to stop.

im not trying to convert or witness to you people, but just explain why us christians believe they way we do, since some think we just have pulled it out of God knows where.

Jesus had to do many things...........

if you look at the history for the penalty of sins, certain sacrifices commanded by God had to be performed, and this was a blood sacrifice done at the temple(wailing wall currently in Israel). the punishment of sins is death and separation from God, but then he realized that no matter how hard mankind tried, they would never make it; but a rule is a rule. so God decided as long as a human said he would try his hardest to do good , God could would come to earth live a human life( not be tempted and fall to the devil, do what adam couldnt do in the garden of eden), shed his body and go to the realm of the dead take on all of mankinds sins, so that if they believed God served their punishment for sins, God did.

this world doesnt run on the time that they do in the afterlife; in the realm of the dead all there is, is forever. so God served forever came back not violating human prinicple of death, or God's principle of death. they would go to heaven and not have to worry about sacrificing animals, because i.e what if you dont have an animal, God is not changing his rule, so this makes it fair for everyone in a numerous ways.

 

[blackivy393]

Thank you, Elizabeth, for your explanation.


There are a lot of things that could be said regarding what you posted. However, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Therefore, I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. I will rephrase my question:


Do Christians believe that the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" [found in 1 John 5:7-8 according to the King James Version] is part of the Holy Scriptures?

oh okay i get were you saying, many people try to state this passage was added later in order to justify the theology of the trinity, but the phrase, the father, son, and holy spirit was the phrase used in order to discuss the trinity; John called Jesus the word and not the Son, so people stating fictional people involved or fictional meetings that some think must of occured in order to had snippets here and have no historical proof to ever occuring; this is the language of John, so it is consistent in the way he described Jesus, by this time of "fictional meeting" occured the language already have been updated as father, son, holy spirit. trinity is a vocab word, dont trip; its not a debate, it wasnt in the bible.

 

[Sweet Insanity]

the funny thing is that when i talk to Christians I'm like "why do you worship a man?"
and theyre like "hes (Jesus (PBUH)) not a man, hes God"
so then I ask "If hes (JESUS (PBUH)) God, then why did he pray to himself?"
then they answer "because on earth he's man"
so i ask "then if hes a man, he cant die for the sins of mankind"

so far noone has ever answered that..

if Mary (PBUH) gave birth to Jesus (God) then doesnt that make her more superior then God, like ur parents are to u?

and if Jesus "came back to life" as the Holy Spirit from what I have understood... is it so hard for u to believe that he was a ghost?
Christians do believe in ghosts..

plus the death of Jesus (PBUH) didnt make anyone any less of sinners...
it actually made the Christians preach more hatred towards the Jews... would Jesus (PBUH) be happy to know you're killing his own people?

and if Jesus was jewish, doesnt that mean God is Jewish? therefore Judaism is the proper religion, NOT Christanity?

please explain
ive been to church a lot.. and studied bout Christianity.. but noone, not even priests have actually answered those questions.. which are just a few from what i have hey im still a child im allowed to be annoying and ask heaps of questions lol

-God Bless

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello Elizabeth [balckivy393],


You wrote the following in post #227 [in response to my post #222]:

oh okay i get were you saying, many people try to state this passage was added later in order to justify the theology of the trinity, but the phrase, the father, son, and holy spirit was the phrase used in order to discuss the trinity; John called Jesus the word and not the Son, so people stating fictional people involved or fictional meetings that some think must of occured in order to had snippets here and have no historical proof to ever occuring; this is the language of John, so it is consistent in the way he described Jesus, by this time of "fictional meeting" occured the language already have been updated as father, son, holy spirit. trinity is a vocab word, dont trip; its not a debate, it wasnt in the bible.

To begin with, I'd like to thank you for your response.


You wrote -about the passage I wrote in bold type and coloured red in my post #220- that:

many people try to state this passage was added later in order to justify the theology of the trinity

Actually, you've got part of the answer.


The full answer is that the "many people" you're referring to are actually very devout Christians. And they even expunged -i.e., deleted- the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" from 1 John 5:7-8 in most of the recent English versions of the Bible.


The following is a list of those versions that do not contain the disputed phrase in the text of 1 John 5:7-8:

1- New American Bible [the official English version of the Roman Catholic Church]
2- New International Version
3- New American Standard Bible
4- Amplified Bible
5- New Living Translation
6- English Standard Version
7- Contemporary English Version
8- New King James Version
9- New Century Version
10- American Standard Version
11- Darby Translation
12- Holman Christian Standard Bible
13- New International Version - UK
14- Today's New International Version
15- Ferrar Fenton Bible


If you want proof, then please click on the following link:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127


That means that all these editors of the above versions admitted that the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" was a forgery.

 

[blackivy393]

the funny thing is that when i talk to Christians I'm like "why do you worship a man?"
and theyre like "hes (Jesus (PBUH)) not a man, hes God"
so then I ask "If hes (JESUS (PBUH)) God, then why did he pray to himself?"
then they answer "because on earth he's man"
so i ask "then if hes a man, he cant die for the sins of mankind"so far noone has ever answered that..



if Mary (PBUH) gave birth to Jesus (God) then doesnt that make her more superior then God, like ur parents are to u?

and if Jesus "came back to life" as the Holy Spirit from what I have understood... is it so hard for u to believe that he was a ghost?
Christians do believe in ghosts..

plus the death of Jesus (PBUH) didnt make anyone any less of sinners...
it actually made the Christians preach more hatred towards the Jews... would Jesus (PBUH) be happy to know you're killing his own people?

and if Jesus was jewish, doesnt that mean God is Jewish? therefore Judaism is the proper religion, NOT Christanity?

please explain
ive been to church a lot.. and studied bout Christianity.. but noone, not even priests have actually answered those questions.. which are just a few from what i have hey im still a child im allowed to be annoying and ask heaps of questions lol

-God Bless

Jesus didnt come back as the holy spirit because in chrisitian belief Jesus resurrrected he came back from the realm of the dead, reinhabited his body was seen by some people and went to heaven whole.

Jesus was the tribe of Judea, direct descendant of david. Judaism is the religion that belonged to the people from this region; there was only Jews, some believed that the messiah had appeared(later called xtians) and some didnt. some people who were not ethnically Jewish seen i like this new version of Judaism, and when people started converting than they as well started to feel discrimination as if they were ethnically Jewish; this is where this desire to have a unique identiy started. because xtians dont believe you have to follow mosaic law in order 2 guarantee salvation, but all still practiced, but later mixed with the politics of making the religion appear simple and not wanting to be discriminated as Jews; some made sure to be more unique. and after the destruction of the 2nd temple there was no 1 place of worship, relations fell out. and plus you just have the childish jealously of people wanting to be the chosen people of God first. because we believe Jews are the chosen people of God- the tribe God choose to interact with; and has Chrisitans you become part of this family as well, but people want to be part of the club first etc etc. its pretty common knowledge now about the separation of the early church from judaism, thats why now its becoming popular for xtians (mostly protestants) to do haunkkah, wear the israel flags, buy tefillin or ram's horns because they're going back to the roots of xtianity. theres many documentaries and books about it out now. throughout the whole bible, it talks about you have to be nice to Jews spirtually they're our older brother but he always getting beaten up by other people, so we got help them since its more of us, we know we totally worship God becasue of the Jews; if it wasnt for struggle, Jesus couldnt of even been birth into existence throught the tribe of Judea. and of course there are always different governments that had political agendas that fronted under the claim of religion in order to gain political/social/and economic backing; we all know the story about that. but now xtians, are becoming part of the family again, why you ask because when we help Jews in any kind of way here in US/europe or Israel, or wherever terrorist want to kill the Jew and us too, its like old times again lol.


Jesus was resurrected , he reinhabited his body, no he wasnt a ghost or see through; everyone was hand-fiving him. Mary was not higher than God, she just gave physical human birth to Jesus, which i believe is not yet to be a supernatural act; she didnt have life any easier, she didnt get any special powers, she didnt get any special abilities, she didnt even become rich.

in each realm, there are certain rules, this is also certain things we are capable of doing and not doing because we are human. one of these cant-do things is come into direct presence of God. God is perfect anything less will get drestroyed, anything coming in human form will be destroyed, your human body is even so awful when you die it must be left here unless it is perfect(sinless). lets say Jesus is like i want to go to my own house(heaven) and just think, leave this realm go back home for a quick second, o wait he cant because hes in awful human body which plans on taking on all of mankinds sins,before you go to a very nice place

its like a CEO of a company he's rich and dresses nice, goes to the places he owns very upscale, where everyone else has to pay to enter, he gets in for free. he decides maybe to pretend to be homeless for a week(lesser than what he is) looks very poor, very different and tries to enter this very upscale place; bouncer says wheres your money. CEO says what are you talking about i own this company. Bouncer says doesnt look like you own this company, plus you look to messed up,you have to pay to enter like everyone else. if someone pretending to be homeless but than is going to 5 star hotels, 5 star this in that and is not doing everything homeless people do, than you're not really living as a homeless. you kind of get now, God is not going to break the rules he has set for mankind if he's trying to live as human

 

[blackivy393]

Hello Elizabeth [balckivy393],


You wrote the following in post #227 [in response to my post #222]:




To begin with, I'd like to thank you for your response.


You wrote -about the passage I wrote in bold type and coloured red in my post #220- that:




Actually, you've got part of the answer.


The full answer is that the "many people" you're referring to are actually very devout Christians. And they even expunged -i.e., deleted- the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" from 1 John 5:7-8 in most of the recent English versions of the Bible.


The following is a list of those versions that do not contain the disputed phrase in the text of 1 John 5:7-8:

1- New American Bible [the official English version of the Roman Catholic Church]
2- New International Version
3- New American Standard Bible
4- Amplified Bible
5- New Living Translation
6- English Standard Version
7- Contemporary English Version
8- New King James Version
9- New Century Version
10- American Standard Version
11- Darby Translation
12- Holman Christian Standard Bible
13- New International Version - UK
14- Today's New International Version
15- Ferrar Fenton Bible


If you want proof, then please click on the following link:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127


That means that all these editors of the above versions admitted that the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" was a forgery.

have u went out 2 the library or bookstore and checked 2 see if 1 John 5:7-8 is in the various translations of all listed, or did you just copy paste and this from else where; its in the NIV version i own you want to check the rest of the list ?

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

When I browsed I had to laugh. This has to be one of the longest running posts. Brother Bluegazer if I were younger I would have proposed to you by now. You make a Muslim woman proud. You show good manners, you are so filled with knowledge and you have patience. Indeed, you are blessed.
I would have lost it about 150 posts ago.

The New International Version of the Bible is used excuslively by your off-shoot protestant, non-mainstream, semi-affliliated with the Southern Baptists bootleg churches. The mainstream churches and the synods do not use this version. There is heavy political propaganda assoicated with this incorrect version. How do I know..a long time ago I used to work for a seminary and I used to sell Bibles and give reviews to an organization known as the Consortium of Greater Churches. It was my job to know Bibles. I was in graduate school and the pay and benefits were excellent. It beat flipping burgers.
The mainstream theologians would not use the NIV as a text..it was not of scholarly value...and it was considered not intellectual enough for any coursework. My point being if the mainstream Christians do not consider this version to be exact it makes it very difficult to argue/discuss the significance of the version with a non-Christian.

 

[blackivy393]

Salaam,

When I browsed I had to laugh. This has to be one of the longest running posts. Brother Bluegazer if I were younger I would have proposed to you by now. You make a Muslim woman proud. You show good manners, you are so filled with knowledge and you have patience. Indeed, you are blessed.
I would have lost it about 150 posts ago.

The New International Version of the Bible is used excuslively by your off-shoot protestant, non-mainstream, semi-affliliated with the Southern Baptists bootleg churches. The mainstream churches and the synods do not use this version. There is heavy political propaganda assoicated with this incorrect version. How do I know..a long time ago I used to work for a seminary and I used to sell Bibles and give reviews to an organization known as the Consortium of Greater Churches. It was my job to know Bibles. I was in graduate school and the pay and benefits were excellent. It beat flipping burgers.
The mainstream theologians would not use the NIV as a text..it was not of scholarly value...and it was considered not intellectual enough for any coursework. My point being if the mainstream Christians do not consider this version to be exact it makes it very difficult to argue/discuss the significance of the version with a non-Christian.

the different translations of the bible is personal preference of which dialect of english is most suitable to one's choosing, i have over 10 different translations in my personal possession. muslims argument is something had to be changed it justifies out their religious text doesnt match jews/xtians

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello Elizabeth [balckivy393],


In response to my post #229, you wrote the following in post #231:

have u went out 2 the library or bookstore and checked 2 see if 1 John 5:7-8 is in the various translations of all listed, or did you just copy paste and this from else where; its in the NIV version i own you want to check the rest of the list ?

It's very evident, Elizabeth, that you didn't even bother to click on the link I provided at the end of my post #229. Here it is again:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127


Let me state this clearly. The phrase coloured in red and set in bold type [like so] is not found in the main text of 1 John 5:7-8 in all of the versions I listed in my post #229:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The 15 versions I mentioned in my post #229 either mention the above emphasized phrase in the footnote, saying that it's not found in the earliest manuscripts [or something very close to that meaning], or they simply deleted the phrase without mentioning anything at all in any footnote.


And to answer your question; No, I did not got to a library to check out these versions, but I did something that's almost [or is] as good as seeing the New International Version of the Bible and the other books myself.


How can I boldly say that?


For three reasons:

1- The website I pasted from is the following is www.biblegateway.com. They're obviously a Christian website, as the following sentences show:

ABOUT THE BIBLE GATEWAY SEARCHABLE ONLINE BIBLE.

What it is

The Bible Gateway is a tool for reading and researching scripture online -- all in the language or translation of your choice! It provides advanced searching capabilities, which allow readers to find and compare particular passages in scripture based on keywords, phrases, or scripture reference.

History

The Bible Gateway was first started in 1993 by Nick Hengeveld while attending Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI.

In 1995 Nick became the first webmaster at Gospelcom.net. He brought the Bible Gateway with him, and since then it has been one of the favorite resources provided by Gospel Communications International (the parent company of Gospelcom.net). The Gospelcom.net team has been maintaining and developing the Bible Gateway and continues to add new translations, languages, and functionality.

Gospelcom.net is extremely grateful to many publishers and Christian organizations that have contributed their many Bible resources and translations for use in the Bible Gateway, including Gospelcom.net alliance ministries such as International Bible Society and The Lockman Foundation.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/about/


2- I googled "New International Version" [using the quotation marks " "], and the third result that came up -after the Bibleway.com website mentioned in point 1- was the following:

NIV Bible :: New International Version :: Official Site
The online NIV Bible :: New International Version Official Translation Site by International Bible Society.
www.ibs.org/niv/index.php - 74k - Cached - Similar pages

I clicked on it, and I was taken to the International Bible Society's website. The following is what I got when I entered "1 John 5:7-8" in the search field[marked "NIV Passage (Verse) Search"] found in the following website:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/index.php


And this is the result I got is the following:

7For there are three that testify: 8 the [a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.


Footnotes:

a. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1+John+5:7-8&niv=yes


3- I went to the amazon.com website, and I searched for the New International Version. I selected the following book:

Mass Market Paperback: 1120 pages
Publisher: HarperTorch (April 1, 1993)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0061042579
ISBN-13: 978-0061042577

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-Ne...bs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201381042&sr=1-3


If you click on the above link [next to "Source"] you'll see a picture of the NIV cover with the words "SEARCH INSIDE!" above it. Click on the picture, and you'll find yourself accessing the Amazon Online Reader. In the search box, enter the phrase "there are three that testify".


You'll get the following result as the last paragraph:

8. on Page 1082:

"...He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimo- ny, but..."

As you can see, you can't find the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" in the main text of 1 John 5:7-8


Is that good enough for you to be so kind as to click on the following link and read what I had written on this subject?:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello again Elizbath[blackivy393],


I forgot to add that I did not read all of the 15 Bible versions I mentioned from the biblegateway.com website. There are two [New American Bible and Fenton Ferrar Bible] that were from other sources.


The New American Bible quotation was taken from the Vatican website itself. Here it is:

So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

[New American Bible, 1 John 5:7-8]

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12F.HTM


Is the Roman Catholic Church's official website good enough for you?

 

[blackivy393]

Hello Elizabeth [balckivy393],


In response to my post #229, you wrote the following in post #231:




It's very evident, Elizabeth, that you didn't even bother to click on the link I provided at the end of my post #229. Here it is again:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127


Let me state this clearly. The phrase coloured in red and set in bold type [like so] is not found in the main text of 1 John 5:7-8 in all of the versions I listed in my post #229:




The 15 versions I mentioned in my post #229 either mention the above emphasized phrase in the footnote, saying that it's not found in the earliest manuscripts [or something very close to that meaning], or they simply deleted the phrase without mentioning anything at all in any footnote.


And to answer your question; No, I did not got to a library to check out these versions, but I did something that's almost [or is] as good as seeing the New International Version of the Bible and the other books myself.


How can I boldly say that?


For three reasons:

1- The website I pasted from is the following is www.biblegateway.com. They're obviously a Christian website, as the following sentences show:



Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/about/


2- I googled "New International Version" [using the quotation marks " "], and the third result that came up -after the Bibleway.com website mentioned in point 1- was the following:




I clicked on it, and I was taken to the International Bible Society's website. The following is what I got when I entered 1 John 5:7-8 in the search field[marked "NIV Passage (Verse) Search"] found in the following website:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/index.php


And this is the result I got is the following:



Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1+John+5:7-8&niv=yes


3- I went to the amazon.com website, and I searched for the New International Version. I selected the following book:



Source: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-Ne...bs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201381042&sr=1-3


If you click on the above link [next to "Source"] you'll see a picture of the NIV cover with the words "SEARCH INSIDE!" above it. Click on the picture, and you'll find yourself accessing the Amazon Online Reader. In the search box, enter the phrase "there are three that testify".


You'll get the following result as the last paragraph:




As you can see, you can't find the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" in the main text of 1 John 5:7-8


Is that good enough for you to be so kind as to click on the following link and read what I had written on this subject?:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=127

i know what you are trying to suggest that the trinity is something that has been fabricated because in 1 John 5:7-8, depending on the translation of which bible you had, sometimes, Holy ghost, is said, or the holy spirit, water; Jesus is either called son, blood or messiah or word. its different translations. and no the trinity is not just based on this scripture, its deeper than that

 

[blackivy393]

http://bible.cc/1_john/5-8.htm

http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Versions/johannine.htm

 

[Bluegazer]

There are 15 versions of the Bible in English that do not contain the phrase ""in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" in the main text of 1 John 5:7, and that doesn't bother you?


It's a clear case of forgery.


And one should not base his or her salvation on a Book that devout Christians themselves [i.e., the editors of the 15 versions and the Churches that back many of them] admit contains fabricated verses.

 

[Bluegazer]

The following is from the website you mentioned:

There is nothing in the Johannine Comma that goes against the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It is thoroughly Biblical and theologically accurate in its Trinitarian statement. There is no good reason why we should not regard it as authentic and employ it as the clearest proof-text in the Scripture for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Source: http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Versions/johannine.htm


The article says that "is no good reason why we should not regard it as authentic and employ it as the clearest proof-text in the Scripture for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity."


The New International Version you use has a very good reason:

Footnotes:

a. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)

Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1+John+5:7-8&niv=yes

 

[Bluegazer]

And if you think that's the only case of fabrication, then you'd better think again.


You know the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11], where Christians for many centuries believed that Jesus [peace be upon him] said "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" and " "Then neither do I condemn you"?


You know what the New International Version says about this story?:

((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))

Source: http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearc...John+7:53-8:11&niv=yes&display_option=columns


If you want to know about the other versions of the Bible that say the same thing, then click on the following link:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153171&postcount=126

 

[Aapa]

Hello,

I have to praise brother bluegazer once again. In your response to me you did not read what I wrote. Reread it, dear. I stated that mainstream branches of Christians do not use the NIV for its faulty interpertations and language. This is not my opinion. This is the opinion of the churches i.e mainstream Protestant and Catholic. It has nothing to do with Muslims.

And as I always tell others: You are on a forum..watch the language. It is rude not to use appropriate grammar. It lessens the quality of your status quo. You want to win an argument..do not make us lose interest by using sloppy language..it weakens your credibility.