Dawah with a Born-Again Christian

[blackivy393]

Hi BlackIvy,
I really like seeing young people such as yourself searching out God and studying religion. I am curious, what do you think about Islam now? Is there something that is holding you back, or something that has changed in your life, to keep you from wanting to convert at this point in time? From some of your posts it sounds almost like you are trying to combine your Christian beliefs with Islam? I myself also studied many different religions, and did not become Muslim until more than 10 years after my first introduction to Islam.

I wish you the best in your search, May God guide you on the straight path.

Mairo

oh the only thing that holds back is the Jesus is God thing, cuz i actually believe that it makes sense to me that "whole thing" cuz i was like oh yea im going 2 convert 2 islam, since muslims state they worship the same God as Christians and Jews. so i assumed there was a portion of muslims who believed Jesus is God incarnate, just like there are very small portions of Jews who do; but of course i found out differently lol.


but yea some times i wear hijab because some guys are so annoying, aggressive and assertive ^_-. and you can be wearing long sleeve and ankle skirt and still get the most horrible things said to you; but no one bothers you if they think you're muslim. and in the african american community since there has always been a presence of muslims, if you're female no matter how you wear your scarve others will think you're muslim, so they dont bother you lol

 

[blackivy393]

I like to be brief ...

Dear blackivy, if I understood you correctly then your belief is similar to what we call "wahdat alwojood" which I think probably stands for pantheism. It simply states that God is everywhere in the literal sense (not that He is in control of everything). This will of course include human beings. The belief was promoted by a deviated group of "muslim scholars". Nearly all scholars of recognised standing consider this group totally out of Islam. This is because in Islam we belief that Allah is seperate from his creation. Those who called for pantheism ended up considering worshipping idols similar to worshipping Allah because .... "ALLAh is everywhere" in their belief ! (I seek refuge from Allah from such belief). Some of them even claimed that Allah is inside their turbans ... etc (I seek refuge from Allah from such belief). They ended up rejecting the scriptures and putting themselves in a position where they did not need to follow any guidance or do any worship because ... they have a "Godly" part of them so they simply assumed this authority.

This is a distorted view of God and completely nullifies monotheism. It is in fact the worst type of polytheism because according to this belief *God is in everything* ... and just imagine what everything can be (I seek refuge from Allah from such belief).

I'd recommend you dont focus on politics. Politics are murky and will lead you nowhere as people never agree. I have seen many converts on youtube and not once I've heard them saying that we came to Islam because we thought muslims were abused or we thougt their cause is just ... etc.

This article is a good start.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=135816

I pray that Allah SWT guide us all to the right path.

ooops ... that's lengthy !

oh no not like that , christians dont believe God is the trees and that squirrel over there. we just believe God influence or spirit can be in people and he's everywhere in the sense he sees and hears everything.

 

[Optimist]

OK, I'll take that. but really, there is no difference between saying "God is in me" and "I'm God" because you will still consider whatever you do as a "Godly" thing. Take "speaking in tongue" for example. How do you know it is a good thing (i.e. God ordered it ?). Just assuming this authority of deciding what is good & bad without guidance means you have assumed God position. This is shirk (polytheism). In Islam we measure everything against the Quran and the Sunnah of our beloved prophet (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him).

Read about tawhid (monotheism in Islam). To me it is the most beautiful part of our faith. It is so pure & simple. There is nothing like knowing your God because this is the purpose of our creation. May Allah guide us all to the right path.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/index2.php?vPart=57&startno=1&thelang=E

 

[blackivy393]

OK, I'll take that. but really, there is no difference between saying "God is in me" and "I'm God" because you will still consider whatever you do as a "Godly" thing. Take "speaking in tongue" for example. How do you know it is a good thing (i.e. God ordered it ?). Just assuming this authority of deciding what is good & bad without guidance means you have assumed God position. This is shirk (polytheism). In Islam we measure everything against the Quran and the Sunnah of our beloved prophet (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him).

Read about tawhid (monotheism in Islam). To me it is the most beautiful part of our faith. It is so pure & simple. There is nothing like knowing your God because this is the purpose of our creation. May Allah guide us all to the right path.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/index2.php?vPart=57&startno=1&thelang=E

but yea, christians measure everything they do against the bible, its not requirement to be baptised in the holy spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, but its an ability you can choose 2 develop and it discusses in the new testament , but muslims dont acknowledge that part of the gospel


there is no difference between saying "God is in me" and "I'm God" because you will still consider whatever you do as a "Godly" thing

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One." so when some1 says something like this , you interpret this person as saying they're God or that God is part of them ? if you so when you read the bible you would interpret Jesus as saying he is God.

 

[nobbyv]

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One." so when some1 says something like this , you interpret this person as saying they're God or that God is part of them ? if you so when you read the bible you would interpret Jesus as saying he is God.

What about John 17:20-22, in which Jesus (pbuh) says "THat ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us"

Does this mean that the disciples are also GOD's since they are ONE with Jesus and GOD?

 

[blackivy393]

What about John 17:20-22, in which Jesus (pbuh) says "THat ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us"

Does this mean that the disciples are also GOD's since they are ONE with Jesus and GOD?

this means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God


if you take the whole scripture and not just cut it in half, you see theyre talking about the agreement of the same message

this is a prayer from Jesus and he is saying
I
pray not only for these,
but also for those who believe in Me

through their message.

21 May they all be one, (A) <--- church unified in their message

as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. (B) <---- Jesus saying him and the father are one, he's in God and God is in him

May they also be one [a] in Us, <----- that believers are agreence with with God(trinity)

so the world may believe You sent Me.

22 I have given them the glory (C) You have given Me.

May they be one as We are one.


God in the hebrew is often referred to as elohim, the plural form of God through out the bible and old testament. God is often quoted as saying "US" through the old testament

 

[nobbyv]

this means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God

Its simply amazing how one verse can be taken literally and the other verse figuratively...

 

[blackivy393]

Its simply amazing how one verse can be taken literally and the other verse figuratively...

well, its just in the context of some what is saying. if one person is saying i have allowed God to come into my heart , we know this person obviously is not trying to say they are God.

but if some one else is saying me and the father are the same, and you cant see the heavenly father or get to heaven but through me , you can savely interpret as this person trying to say their God. this is why through out the ministry of Jesus , Jews were saying he was practicing blasphemy because they interpret what he was saying to him alluding to the fact he was God.

if i say God is in me and im talkin God leading my decisions in life and me feeling his guidance, in this statement christians are not saying they are then in God
it
s much different than

the father is in me and i am in the father

you see the difference

God is in me

and

God is in me and I am in God ???

2 clearly different statments

 

[nobbyv]

if i say God is in me and im talkin God leading my decisions in life and me feeling his guidance, in this statement christians are not saying they are then in God
it
s much different than the father is in me and i am in the father

you see the difference

God is in me and God is in me and I am in God ???

2 clearly different statments

Yes, ofcourse...I see and respect your point of view. I was a Christian too...
Thank you for your comments...

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,


Everyone has grazed over the fact that according to Balckivy many born againers are supporters of Israel. Many have ignored her statement that born againers give money for resettlement projects. I asked to tell me about the Purim rituals and she has not. Please I beg you to reaseach this. I think many will be shocked to see what happens to this day and time.
I have also asked people to communicate in a language that is readable.
It is sad that Muslims are so busy ignoring the realities of the political nature of the born again movement. Think people. Think and make the connections between zionism and the born again movement.
I am amazed that not one has made the connection. There are threads all over this website on the heinious actions of the zionists and if you do not believe me look at how many Muslims were killed just yesterday because American born againers are giving money to support the killing of Mulisms.
As for me I will support the need to help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. I am quite ashamed of many people who are so busy being pious they forget we need to assist our Muslims first. This is our duty.
Wake up Muslims as you sit here and write in defense of zionism our brothers and sisters are being murdered while you communicate with a girl who states although she is not a zionist she supports the need for born againers to raise money for Israel.
How many of you read the posts of Sister Harb. How many of you are concerened about the prisoners who are detained in States to please Isreal?
Make the connection, read and research...wake up and help the ummath.

 

[dianek]

As a Southern Baptist growing up I had only been to one "born again" Pentecostal church with my aunt and only once. They scared the heck out of me. But as a Southern Baptist, the women in my church were very PIOUS and were not revealing at all, granted they were mostly elderly women and men. But they were pure in spirit and meant only good intentions in every word they spoke or everything they did.

 

[BrotherZak]

well, its just in the context of some what is saying. if one person is saying i have allowed God to come into my heart , we know this person obviously is not trying to say they are God.

but if some one else is saying me and the father are the same, and you cant see the heavenly father or get to heaven but through me , you can savely interpret as this person trying to say their God. this is why through out the ministry of Jesus , Jews were saying he was practicing blasphemy because they interpret what he was saying to him alluding to the fact he was God.

if i say God is in me and im talkin God leading my decisions in life and me feeling his guidance, in this statement christians are not saying they are then in God
it
s much different than

the father is in me and i am in the father

you see the difference

God is in me

and

God is in me and I am in God ???

2 clearly different statments

Here is the difference sister, you totally disregarded the hebrew word for "one" which is "hen"..when Jesus apparently says I and God are One the same word is used just as it is used in the verse where Jesus says that disciples and i and God are One. You cannot take one verse literary and the other figuratively, you simple cannot pick and choose. If you read the context before and after Jesus referring to God and Him being one in goal or in purpose and the Jews surrounding him did not understand it as well.

 

[Optimist]

Dear mirajmom. I fully appreciate your sentiments. No one here have given up on our brothers and sisters in Palestine just because we are being "nice" to blackivy (I think polite is a better word - nice is factually incorrect). Even if she was Israel PM then she would still be entitled to discuss her belief here with respect. Firstly because we -as Muslims- are ordered to use good manners and secondly because this is the purpose of this forum. The fact that she -or her community- pay "charity" to Israel would not change that. Things are rather more complicated than this. In this age where Muslims are 1500 millions spread across nearly all world countries, things are complicated. Part of the taxes that I -or you- pay perhaps go to Israel. Should we ban ourselves ?

Please note that I don't want to start an argument about this. I just want to state my POV and I fully respect yours.

Now to blackivy ...

you are confusing me ... so those born again have the "holy spirit" in them ... isn't the "holy spirit" part of the Christian trinity ? So does that not mean that they have *God* inside them ?

The fact that it is optional in the faith is irrelevant. This kind of belief is still accepted within the born again faith and it is polytheism. I don't buy your claim that born agains follow the bible. Where is the evidence from the bible that "talking in tongues" has to do with the faith ? Do they ban usury ? Do they cover their heads ? Do women talk in church ? Do they call for punishing adulterers ? ... etc. and most important of all: where is the evidence that the "holy spirit" is within them ? They apply the same pick & choose approach although they might be less picky than other groups and therefore *relatively* seen as modest and commited. Would they take the bible as a yard-stick instead of other's opinion ?

I'm not an expert in Christianity -nor Islam- for that purpose. However, I know full well that anyone who claim that God -or part of it- is inside him have left monotheism. It is nonesens & blasphemy. Inside us there some unclean organs that contain stuff ... if you see what I mean.

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

Brother I thank you for your point of view. I never want to argue. I do want an understanding that although a person has a right to a point of view it in polite for them to be honest and upfront from the get-go.
Secondly, if one is going to be a supporter of a movement..you need to have your ducks in a row. Remember the political right is in bed with the evangelical movements of the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Oral Roberts to name a few. They are co-conspritors of zionism.
When you come on forum you must be prepared to defend your logic. You can not make blanket statements without defending them.
Too, it is critical for the sake of dialogue that they be grounded in the thelogical verbage of the movement they support. Many of the born againers have no sound philosophy to select from..they are jackrabbit preachers..many of the ministers are not graduates from certified semanries.
In addition, Blackivy bypassed all my questions. I am waiting for some answers.
Once again I urge everyone to read the ritual of Purim.
As to someone giving charity to Israel. Hello, why would I want to spend time with someone like that. I need to spend time with Sister Harb who is urging us to give money to our brothers and sisters in need in Palestine. As for my tax-dollars...please read the posts of Brother Taxhonesty and vote for Ron Paul.
Yes, we need to be polite. However, if you are in the ring with a heavyweight you better be perpared...I took lessons from the great one.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Fly Like a Butterfly, Sting Like A Bee!

Salaam,

However, if you are in the ring with a heavyweight you better be perpared...I took lessons from the great one.

Salaam,

I just love your sense of passion.

 

[dianek]

Here is the difference sister, you totally disregarded the hebrew word for "one" which is "hen"..when Jesus apparently says I and God are One the same word is used just as it is used in the verse where Jesus says that disciples and i and God are One. You cannot take one verse literary and the other figuratively, you simple cannot pick and choose. If you read the context before and after Jesus referring to God and Him being one in goal or in purpose and the Jews surrounding him did not understand it as well.

But isn't her quote from the Bible similar to Qu'ran Chapter 2 verse 32:
"My servant draws near to me by means of nothing dearer to me than that which I have established as a duty to him. And my servant continues drawing nearer to me through supererogatory acts until I love him: and when I love him, I become his ear through which he hears, his eye with which he sees, his hand with which he grasps and his foot whereon he walks."

 

[Optimist]

Dear Diane. Quran verse 2:32 reads as follow:

"They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

The text you mentioned is Hadith, which is different. This hadith is a sound one and is narrated in Sahih Bukhari. The hadith indicates that the the cirteria by which people achieve closeness to Allah is by OBEYING Allah's comand, which starts off by doing obligatory duties and then supererogatory acts. Few people will achieve the grade where they are so sincere and pious that Allah SWT will love them and be with them (but not part of them - no muslim will say that) wherever and whenever they are. This hadith indicates that if you see people making super-natural things and claim that they are pious men (v. common - I can tell you) then use the Quran and Sunnah as a yard-stick to measure them against. If they don't follow Quran & Sunnah then they are liars even if they walk on water or fly in the air.

The Islamic position toward Jesus (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) can be summarised by this Quranic verse:

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." 4:171.

You can clearly see the difference between this and the "God incarnate" or "father, son and holy spirit" position of Christianity. It is blasphemy and they cant wriggle out of it. I guess this acceptance of God figure in human shape that led those born agains to the current position of beliving that God (or holy spirit) is in them. You can clearly see the consequences. They start thinking that whatever they do is "Godly" and just take this "talking in tongue" as an example. Did Jesus (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) do that ? They take the position of God authority and this will give them the ability to reject the scripture of parts of it and this is just inevitable. I guess the presumed infallibility of the Pope in Catholicism is rather similar to this position.

I urge you guys to read the articles I've posted before. The importance of understanding monotheism cannot be overstated.

 

[dianek]

Oops, my bad, still learning and got myself confused as to that which I was reading. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[nobbyv]

I personally don't think this manifestations (speaking in tongues, visions, dreams, even prophesys!) come from Allah, at least 99.9% of the times ( Allah konws best). I've been there, I've done that , and I think this is just an 'emotional crowd response' . My family keeps telling me that the spirit told them this and that and they even seem to say 'prophesies' which actually I have never seen to be fullfilled.

I also must admit that there are also very genuine and commited christians who follow a very 'clean' life and truly love God with their heart, so I'm sure Allah will manifest somehow in their life as Allah does with true muslims. Allah knows best. I just don't believe Allah manifests Himself as being in a 'circus' kind of show.

I think if those manifestations were 100% from God I and many muslims would still be having them! But as soon as I converted to Islam, I didn't like them or need them anymore, even more they sound very out of place and 'wrong' for me now. Allah know best.

Assalamualaikum dear Gazkour,

You are exactly the person i was looking for when i started this thread...Maybe you can help me out here...

I have a very close friend who has recently accepted Jesus (pbuh) as his personal savior and lord...he says that he is able to talk in tongues and his life has changed from Evil to GOOD after he became Born Again.

How can i tell him that his personal experiences (like speaking in tongues etc...) are not from GOD? He is convinced that it is from GOD because his life changed from Evil to Good!! PLEASE ADVICE...

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Dear mirajmom. I fully appreciate your sentiments. No one here have given up on our brothers and sisters in Palestine just because we are being "nice" to blackivy (I think polite is a better word - nice is factually incorrect). Even if she was Israel PM then she would still be entitled to discuss her belief here with respect. Firstly because we -as Muslims- are ordered to use good manners and secondly because this is the purpose of this forum. The fact that she -or her community- pay "charity" to Israel would not change that. Things are rather more complicated than this. In this age where Muslims are 1500 millions spread across nearly all world countries, things are complicated. Part of the taxes that I -or you- pay perhaps go to Israel. Should we ban ourselves ?

Please note that I don't want to start an argument about this. I just want to state my POV and I fully respect yours.

Now to blackivy ...

you are confusing me ... so those born again have the "holy spirit" in them ... isn't the "holy spirit" part of the Christian trinity ? So does that not mean that they have *God* inside them ?

The fact that it is optional in the faith is irrelevant. This kind of belief is still accepted within the born again faith and it is polytheism. I don't buy your claim that born agains follow the bible. Where is the evidence from the bible that "talking in tongues" has to do with the faith ? Do they ban usury ? Do they cover their heads ? Do women talk in church ? Do they call for punishing adulterers ? ... etc. and most important of all: where is the evidence that the "holy spirit" is within them ? They apply the same pick & choose approach although they might be less picky than other groups and therefore *relatively* seen as modest and commited. Would they take the bible as a yard-stick instead of other's opinion ?

I'm not an expert in Christianity -nor Islam- for that purpose. However, I know full well that anyone who claim that God -or part of it- is inside him have left monotheism. It is nonesens & blasphemy. Inside us there some unclean organs that contain stuff ... if you see what I mean.

Salaam akhi,

You've made an astute and subtle approach. I'm anticipating for some answers.