female circumsision

[kayleigh]

Salam,

The problem is, this topic has been beaten into the ground and every time someone makes a thread on this, it turns into about 9+ pages of drama.

I'm completely against it in all forms. I think it's disgusting, and morally reprehensible, and I really wish there was a way to educate people and stop such a barbaric practice. But I'll leave it at that because I (for once, lol) don't feel like participating in 8 pages of drama over some slicing and dicing.

Oh, and, by the way, don't take medical advice from a scholar, unless he used to be a doctor himself. From personal observation, the vast majority of "medical advice" given out in these fatwas is absolutely laughable. Those "benefits" that someone posted are not medically proven facts at all. The person who issued it (or wrote the article - didn't notice if it was just a fatwa or an article or what) is either lying on purpose, or the poor guy has been severely miseducated. I'm sure any nurses or doctors can elaborate.

 

[MubarekMuslimah]

Salaams

yes but I think the question is did Rasoulallah pbuh RECOMMEND it or did he just say there was no harm in it....there is a difference you see. Recommending it is encouraging it - and would therefore mean that the women close to him were encouraged by him to be circumcised. Saying there is no harm in it would mean that he pbuh did not object to it within limits - but its not the same as actively encouraging it.

As some one else on this thread said - one is Sunnah ( i.e. following his example of actions and words, things he pbuh chose to do ) and the other is his allowance of something that is not from his OWN actions and words.

Hope no-one becomes offended by this subject......please could someone post full evidneces from the hadith WITH their gradings and also the opinion of the 4 Great Scholars.

Wasalaams

p.s. I agree with sis Kayleigh - some of the medical stuff cited by some scholars, is NOT correct or reliable. be careful of the actual medical advice and knowledge you take from them - the actual medical detail should be taken from a qualified doctor insha'allah. The ruling in Islam with Islamic evidneces from the Scholar and the medical advice with the medical evidences from a Doctor insha'allah.

p.p.s - we should be able to discuss this subject insha'allah - it concerns sisters and brothers since some brothers will have daughters insha'allah and in addition we should all learn about all aspects of our faith insha'allah and what is culture and what is not as well as we ALL need to be able to defend our Deen from the criticims of the Unbelievers. we are all grown ups insha'allah there is no shame in this subject as long as doesnt become personal. Any sisters wanting more exact advice can seek it in the Sister's sensitive section insha'allah.

 

[Amir_of_spain]

asalam wailkium.
So far i have not read any clear evidences from hadith that specifically says female circumcision should be practised, promoted and the reasons/logical behind it. Furthermore there is absolutely NO evidence that tells that the prophet carried this practise out on his wives and his daughters, same with the sahabiyat. As for the scientific reasons given, theyre in reality flawed and can be applied to those without circumcision, eg i just read one point saying it reduces UTI's well UTI's are caused because by bacteria and due to the women having a longer uretha. I also read in here someone saying a hadith about circumcision should be done -al bukhari, which was correct BUT it was in reference to men, as it was the practise of our forefather abraham, so again both religious and scientific reasons for this practise has been totally out of context and people are already are promoting this as sunnah when it is not been proven, the evidences given so far in here are extremely poor. If it was sunnah then where is the hadith saying it was carried out on fatima and aisha and so on. The reality is female circumcision is a practise that was carried out even before the time of the prophet, in the times of ignorance, it stretches back to the time of the pharoahs in ancient egypt, and it was practised to prevent young women getting arousal by damaging their sexual organ thus reducing sexual sensation and thus would discourage them from going with men. It was never a religious practise, only a cultural one, I will try to find out more info through research if time permits.

 

[ShyHijabi]

It takes away excessive libido from women

It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system

Salaam,

First of all I take issue with "excessive libido" being considered a "problem." If a woman desires sex with her husband that is not sinful nor shameful. Frigidity can be many time more devastating to a marriage than "excessive libido."

There is absolutely no research that backs the point that female circ'ing reduces or even prevents incidence of UTIs. As a matter of fact it reveals a profound lack of knowledge of female human anatomy on the person who wrote the article. UTIs are caused by bacteria entering the urethra, usually from improper cleaning after urinating. The area circumcised on a female is too far "north" to have any interaction in this process. It's like saying lips can give you a sinus infection. The same applies to infections of the female reproductive system....there is no interaction between the organs in question.

There are also no unpleasant odour beneath the pupice as there isn't any space for bacteria to become trapped. If we practice the fitra of rinsing ourselves with water after using the bathroom it will remove any odors produced from anywhere...barring infection.

Most importantly, Rasoolullah never said he had this procedure performed on his daughters. When it was brought up he simply told the woman performing the procedure to use extreme restraint so the child in question was not harmed. He put limitations on it but never encouraged it. So to call it a Sunnah seems wrong to me...sunnahs are to be encouraged not expresssed with only limitations.

If I come across rather passionate in this subject please forgive me, I have researched this very deeply from all mahdabs and feel strngly about this. The brothers should be involved in this discussion because they will most likely have daughters some day (Inshallah) and they can't hide from this forever. It is our obligation to increase our knowledge in Islam and I feel this is a subject where ignorance reigns due to cultural practices and no real analysis done on the fiqh of the matter.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

 

[ShaTTereDreaMer]

wow...from my view...this IS NOT a tradition in islam...its a tradition of people...the sad thing is...people have mixed the religion and culture so much...its like they cant differenciate this from that!

people....open your eyes~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[BintMuhammad]

:salam2:

I don't understand why people would still debate on this issue when it's already clearly stated in one of our brother's posts that this is recommended by the Prophet Muhammad SAW..so are you saying that what the Prophet SAW said is disgusting? SubhanAllaah! I've heard of sisters who have had been circumcised and they're perfectly normal and happy with it. No one is saying that it is required (correct me if I'm wrong) so what's the big deal? If you don't like it then don't do it to yourself, don't do it to your daughters and stop saying it's disgusting or what not because you know who you are insulting. May Allaah swt forgive us and may He bless our Prophet Muhammad Ameen.

 

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

:salam2:

I don't understand why people would still debate on this issue when it's already clearly stated in one of our brother's posts that this is recommended by the Prophet Muhammad SAW..so are you saying that what the Prophet SAW said is disgusting? SubhanAllaah! I've heard of sisters who have had been circumcised and they're perfectly normal and happy with it. No one is saying that it is required (correct me if I'm wrong) so what's the big deal? If you don't like it then don't do it to yourself, don't do it to your daughters and stop saying it's disgusting or what not because you know who you are insulting. May Allaah swt forgive us and may He bless our Prophet Muhammad Ameen.

:salam2:

Jazakee Allahu khayran Sister! May Allah SWT forgive us!

Please allow me to one last elaboration.

The question of female circumcision in Muslim lands attracts considerable media attention. This is probably due to the negative reactions and condemnation that the practice provokes – especially in European countries that have large Muslim communities. This attention grew considerably after one African Muslim discussed on television the way that this circumcision is carried out and declared that the practice was recommended by Islamic Law. This led certain countries to pass legislation prohibiting female circumcision on the grounds that it is harmful to women and a violation of their rights.



Pre-Islamic Arabia

Before discussing this practice in light of Islamic teachings, it behooves us to consider that the circumcision of girls is a custom that has been practiced since ancient times in parts of Africa, particularly in Egypt, Nubia, Sudan, and their surroundings. The prevalent type of female circumcision practiced in that region is known as Pharaonic circumcision, and it seems that the reason for it was the desire of the men in those societies to weaken the sexual desire of women in order to ensure their chastity.

It is quite possible that this practice spread to neighboring Arab countries from Egypt and practiced on occasion or that Arabs were at least aware of this custom before the advent of Islam, since customs can spread from one society to another. However, I have not come across any verifiable evidence that the Arabs of pre-Islamic times were in the practice of circumcising their daughters. Among them were those who killed their daughters fearing the shame that they brought and had no need for circumcision.


What is reported in the Sunnah

There are some narrations attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) concerning female circumcision. The most important of which are the following:

1. “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and an honorable thing for women.” [Musnad Ahmad (19794)]

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalâni discusses this hadîth in al-Talkhîs al-Habîr (4/1407):
Ahmad and al-Bayhaqî narrate this hadîth from al-Hajjâj b. Arta’ah who narrates it from Abû al-Mulayh from Usâmah from his father.

This al-Hajjâj is one who is known to use ambiguous terms in conveying his chain of transmission, and moreover he is inconsistent in this narration. Sometimes he cites his chain of transmission as given above and at other times he mentions an additional narrator named Shidâd b. `Aws after Abû Mulayh’s father. This is how we find the hadîth being narrated in Musannaf Ibn Abî Shaybah, Ibn Abî Hâtim’s `Ilal, and Mu`jam al-Tabarânî al-Kabîr.

At other times, he narrates the hadîth from Makhûl from Abû Ayyûb. This narration can be found in Musnad Ahmad. Ibn Abî Hâtim mentions this in al-`Ilal and quotes his father as laying the blame for the mistake on either al-Hajjâj or the narrator who relates it from him `Abd al-Wâhid b. Ziyâd. Al-Bayhaqî says about `Abd al-Wâhid b. Ziyâd: “He is a weak narrator and his narrations are incomplete.”

In al-Tamhîd, Ibn `Abd al-Barr says: “This hadîth depends upon the narration of al-Hajjâj b. Arta’ah whose narrations cannot be used as evidence for anything.”

The hadîth is in fact related by a narrator other than al-Hajjâj b. Arta’ah. This statement is related in Mu`jam al-Tabarânî al-Kabîr and in Sunan al-Bayhaqî on the authority of Ibn `Abbâs back to the Prophet (peace be upon him). However, al-Bayhaqî himself declares it to be a weak hadîth when he mentions it in Sunan al-Bayhaqî. He says in his work al-Ma`rifah: “It is not authentic as a statement of the Prophet (peace be upon him).”
Therefore, this is a weak hadîth.

2. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is reported to have passed by a woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by saying: “Trim, but do not cut into it, for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband.” [Mu`jam al-Tabarânî al-Awsat (2274)]

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalâni discusses this hadîth as well in al-Talkhîs al-Habîr (4/1407-1408):
Al-Hâkim relates it in al-Mustadrak from `Ubayd Allah b. `Amr who narrates it from Zayd b. Abî Usayd from `Abd al-Malik b. `Umayr from al-Dahhâk b. Qays that in Madînah there was a woman called Umm `Atiyyah who used to circumcise the slave girls, so Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said to her: “O Umm `Atiyyah! Trim, but do not cut into it, for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband.”

It likewise related by al-Tabarânî, by Abû Nu`aym in al-Ma`rifah, and by al-Bayhaqî with essentially the same chain of transmission except that narrator `Ubayd Allah b. `Amr narrates it from “a man from the city of Kufah” from `Abd al-Malik b. `Umayr.

Al-Mufdil al-`Ulâ’î says : “I asked Ibn Ma`în about this hadîth and he told me that its narrator al-Dahhâk b. Qays is not al-Fahrî.”

However, al-Hâkim and Abû Nu`âym discuss him under the biographical entry of “al-Fahrî”.

`Abd al-Malik b. `Umayr is inconsistent in how he narrates this hadîth. Sometimes it is narrated from him as mentioned above. At other times, he is allegedly relating it from `Atiyyah al-Qurazî as beginning with the words: “In Madînah, there used to be a practitioner of circumcision called Umm `Atiyyah…” It is related in this way by Abû Nu`aym in al-Ma`rifah. At other times he allegedly relates it with Umm `Atiyyah being the narrator [and not the practitioner]. This is how it is related in Sunan Abî Dâwûd.

Abû Dâwûd [in Sûnan Abî Dâwûd (5271)] declares the hadîth to be defective on account of the narrator Muhammad b. Hassân, saying: “Muhammad b. Hassân is an unknown narrator and this hadîth is weak.”

Ibn `Adiyy and al-Bayhaqî confirm Abû Dâwûd’s judgment that Muhammad b. Hassân is an unknown narrator. `Abd al-Ghanî b. Sa`îd, the author of Îdâh al-Shakk, disagrees, saying: “He is Muhammad b. Sa`îd al-Maslûb.” He goes on to narrate this hadîth from Muhammad b. Sa`îd al-Maslûb in his biographical entry for that narrator.

There are two other lines of transmission for this hadîth:

1. Ibn `Adiyy narrates it from Sâlim b. `Abd Allah b. `Umar – and al-Bazzar relaes it from Nâfi` - from `Abd Allah b. `Umar that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “O women of Madînah! Do it lightly, trim and do not cut into it, for it is more favorable with your husbands. And do not deny Allah’s grace.” This wording is from al-Bazzar. In al-Bazzâr’s chain of transmission, there is the narrator Mandal b. `Alî who is a weak narrator. In Ibn `Adiyy’s chain of transmission, there is the narrator Khâlid b. `Amr al-Qurashî who is even weaker.

2. Al-Tabarânî relates it in al-Mu`jam al-Saghîr – and Ibn `Adiyy relates it as well – from Abî Khalîfah who narrates it from Muhammad b. Salâm al-Jamhî from Zâ’idah b. Abî Ruqqâd from Thâbit from Anas with a text like the one found in Sunan Abî Dâwûd.

Ibn `Adiyy comments on this line of transmission, saying: “Zâ’idah is the only narrator to relate his hadîth from Thâbit.”

Al-Tabarânî says: “Muhammad b. Salâm is the only one to relate it like this.”

Tha`lab says: “I saw Yahyâ b. Ma`în among some people with Muhammad b. Salâm right in front of me and he asked him about this hadîth.”

Al-Bukhârî says about Zâ’idah: “His hadîth are false.”

Ibn al-Mundhir says: “There is no report about circumcision that can be relied upon and no chain of transmission that can be followed.”
In Nayl al-Awtâr (1/137-139), al-Shawkâni discusses the hadîth of Umm `Atiyyah and says basically the same things about its weakness that Ibn Hajar says above.


Female circumcision according to the scholars of Islamic Law

Due to the weakness of the hadîth that refer to female circumcision – with some of their narrators being known for deceptiveness and others whose narrations carry no weight – scholars of Islamic Law have differed widely regarding its legal ruling.

In the Hanafî school of law there are two different opinions. Some Hanafî scholars consider it to be a Sunnah for women. Others consider it to be merely an honorable thing. [refer to: al-Fatâwâ al-Hindiyyah and al-Ikhtiyâr li-Tahlîl al-Mukhtâr]

It is considered a preferred act (mandûb) for women in the Mâlikî school of law. They rely upon the hadîth of Umm `Atiyyah for this ruling. [refer to: Bulghah al-Sâlik li-Aqrab al-Masâlik and Ashal al-Madârik Sharh Irshâd al-Sâlik]

In the Shâfi`î school of law, circumcision is considered an obligation for both men and women. This is the official ruling of that school of thought. Some Shâfi`î scholars express the view that circumcision is obligatory for men and merely Sunnah for women. [refer to: al-Majmû`]

In the Hanbalî school of law, circumcision is obligatory for men and merely an honorable thing for women. It is not obligatory for them. The Hanbalî jurist Ibn Qudâmah observes: “This is the view of many people of knowledge. Imam Ahmad said that it is more emphatic for men.” [al-Mughnî (1/115)]

Among contemporary legal scholars, al-Sayyid Sâbiq writes: “The hadîth that call for female circumcision are all weak. Nothing among them is authentic” [Fiqh al-Sunnah (1/36)]


Conclusions:

It appears that female circumcision is more a cultural practice than a matter of Islamic teachings. We have seen that the hadîth which refer to the practice are all weak. The presence of that practice in Egypt an Nubia up to this day is just a continuation of a practice that has been around since the time of the Pharaohs. It is often hard for people to give up deeply ingrained customs and cultural practiced. They continue to be passed down from generation to generation.

Another example of the tenacity of custom is the practice among Indian Muslims where the woman pays a dowry to the husband. This is a pre-Islamic Indian custom that Islam declares false. Islam requires the husband to pay a dowry to the wife. Nevertheless, this custom persists among Muslims in both India and Pakistan, even though the history of Islam in India goes back for many long centuries.

Likewise, Islam put an end to many pre-Islamic customs that marginalized women and denied them their rights. It put an end to people condemning each other’s lineages. It put an end to the practice of wailing at a person’s burial. Nonetheless, these practices can still be seen in some Muslim societies and are often regarded by the people of those societies to be part and parcel of Islamic Law.

The Shâfi`î school of law has been the prevalent legal school in Egypt since its formative years. It may be that the scholars of the Shâfi`î school who promoted the view that female circumcision is obligatory had been influenced by the prevailing culture of the region.

There is no evidence that this practice was widespread among the Pious Predecessors. Moreover, the practice has never been prevalent in the regions where Islam originated – Mecca and Madinah and the surrounding areas of Arabia. It is extremely rare. If female circumcision had truly been endorsed by Islamic Law, it would certainly have been practiced and perpetuated in those regions. Only male circumcision is practiced, due to the authentic evidence in the Sunnah that it is part of the natural way (fitrah).

We conclude that female circumcision is merely a cultural practice that has no prescribed Islamic ruling for it and that is supported by no decisive textual evidence. It is simply a regional custom in the places where it is practiced. We must then take into consideration that many medical professionals consider it to have detrimental affects for the girls who undergo the operation. On that basis, it would be impermissible to allow this custom to continue. In Islamic Law, preservation of the person – the life and bodily soundness of the person – is a legal necessity. Anything that compromises this legal necessity by bringing harm to the person is unlawful.

And Allah knows best.

:salam2: