Hi

[The Skeptic]

You do have an option to Edit your posts. No?

Erm..

May be because you have less than a certain no of posts as yet.

No I don't have that option yet.

I hope it's not because I'm an atheist LOL

 

[BinKhadija]

No I don't have that option yet.

I hope it's not because I'm an atheist LOL

No, OF COURSE not! Actually, now I remember why is that - everyone who has less than, ermmm, about 36 posts have limited profile options. You soon will have this option too. No worries at all..

So, post MORE from now on. LOL

 

[hqudrat]

:salam,
welcome to TTI you will get to learn from the brothers and sisters here insha Allah. enjoy your stay



:tti_sister::tti_sister:

 

[FreedomFighter]

:salam2:

woah welcome to TTI, brother The Skeptic . i hope you benefit and learn a lot from here

 

[SisterKaneez]

And how exactly does an Atheist think, or act in discussions?

Peace be upon you,
From what I have seen rather "mechanical " ; to be honest, if they are not open minded.

 

[SisterKaneez]

Well an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods. I presume you're a Muslim so there for you and I are both atheists too. You are an atheist towards Zeus, Plato, Yahweh, and all the other 3000 gods man kind every cooked up.

Most Atheists are actually agnostic as well. Personally I refer to myself as an Agnostic-Atheist. Gnosticism means "to know" and Theism is the belief in something. So when I say I'm an Agnostic-Atheist, I'm simply stating that I have not knowledge/evidence (scientific, and physical evidence) for the existence of a god, so there for I have no reason to believe he exists. A god very may well exist, I'm not denying that, but I have no evidence to believe in one. And again, by evidence I mean physical/scientific evidence. In other words, I have to see it to believe it. We hold this same type of skepticism when it comes to things like the tooth fairy or the Loch Ness monster, but a lot of us are afraid to hold the same against religions. I'm simply declaring that religion isn't immune to such skepticism, and under the light of hard rationality, it breaks down to be the same as other myths.

Asalaam Aluakum;

You are sadly misguided. If this is how you feel.
We cannot "give" you God. You must first "open" yourself up and find him yourself. No forum can help you find him. You need to do some soul searching and prayer or meditation.

Good luck on your journey.
I have been their and its not easy, but you can do it .
:tti_sister:

 

[abubaseer]

Hello Skeptic,

You say you deny that God exists because noone have proved you that God exists. Which is fair enough.

However, the problem (for Atheists) is that God cannot be seen.

Just as many many things which cannot be seen.
But we don't deny their existence because of their effect.

Similiarly, noone can show you God (in this Life ). But, there are enough proof that God exists. We will go one by one, I request you to have patience and not deviate from the topic.

Shall we start from the creation of the Universe?

1. I ask you if there is no God who created this Universe?

A typical reply of atheist is that creation of Universe is mere coincidence.
However, Modern Science has refuted this beyond shadow of doubt.

Lets get down to the proofs.

Proof given by Atheists
Atheists who claim that creation of Universe is a mere coincidence presented steady state theory as a reason for the exitsence of Universe.
(Please google steady state theory to find out what it is)
Proof given by Modern Science

But, Modern Science has proved this to be totally unscientific theory just as Theory held by Church that Earth is Flat.

And the reason for the creation of Universe is Big Bang. The first explosion that created Universe out nothing.

And according to scientists the explosion was so meticulously controlled that if there was a deviation of a 1/million the Universe as we know today would not exist.

Who was controlling this when there was no one around ?

It was actually proved by two US scientists Pinzias and Wilson to had put some conditions if the the theory was true.

And observations made my US satellite called COBE sent to space proved them right in less than 10 minutes.

They got Nobel prize for it.

Frankly, I think today Atheists donot have any Scientific proof to deny the existence of God. That does not mean i'm saying that they ever had.

Some Verses from Quran on the Topic:


1.Who created all that exists around us?
اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا
It is Allaah Who has created the heavens, the earth and all that is between them. (32:4)

2.What is the argument against those who deny the existence of God?
أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لا يُوقِنُونَ
Were they created without a Creator? Or were they their own creators? Did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay! They will never be convinced. (52:35-36)


It is a fact that man is a creation .How can a creation come into existence without a creator? It is both unimaginable and incorrect to suggest that man is his own creator. For again there arises a question: How could man create himself when he did not exist? In fact, the belief in a creator having divine attributes is an undeniable fact.


3.What are the signs that prove the existence of Allaah?
إِنَّ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ لايَاتٍ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَفِي خَلْقِكُمْ وَمَا يَبُثُّ مِن دَابَّةٍ آيَاتٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ وَاخْتِلافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ وَمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنَ السَّمَاء مِن رِّزْقٍ فَأَحْيَا بِهِ الْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا وَتَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ آيَاتٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Surely in the heavens and the earth there are signs for the true believers;
and in your own creation and that of animals which are scattered through the earth, there are signs for those who are firm in faith, and in the alternation of night and day, in the sustenance that Allaah sends down from heaven with which He revives the earth after its death and in the changing of the winds, there are signs for those who use their common sense. These are the revelations of Allaah, which We are reciting to you in all truth. Then, in what report will they believe if not Allaah and His revelations? (45:3-6)

The creation of the universe and the perfection in its design and governing is a proof that there is Someone who is governing it.

4.The perfect physical structure man has is a proof that there is some creator who created him.
The physical structure of the animals being exactly in harmony with their surrounding proves that there is some Creator who knows their requirements. Also it is a Sign of the existence of God that huge animals are domesticated so easily as if they were created for man only.
The constant system of the alternation of day and night and the benefit in it points to the existence of a Creator. Also the psychological, social and physical benefits in the alternation of days and nights show that there is someone who knows.
The water cycle, the dependency of all the creatures on water, the abundance of water on the earth, the co-ordination of the sun, the winds in the rain system points to the unity of God.
In fact every creature in itself is an evident proof of the existence, wisdom and power of the true god, Allaah.

4. Why, then, people do not believe in Allaah when there are so many signs of his existence and oneness?
وَكَأَيِّن مِّن آيَةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ يَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهَا وَهُمْ عَنْهَا مُعْرِضُونَ
There are many signs in the heavens and the earth, which they pass by; yet they turn (their faces) away from them! (i.e. they pay no attention to them!) (12:105)
Man is so busy that he has no time to ponder upon the Signs spread throughout the universe. Then, how can he benefit from them? Even when he comes across something, he turns away his eyes from them.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Hello The Skeptic,

Welcome to this global Islamic forum. I hope you've had a positive experience so far. I believe the brothers & sisters have answered many of your questions. I'd like to refer you to this article by a prominent scholar in Islam, which I pray you will find benenficial, inshallah (God willing).

by Dr. Zakir Naik

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST


Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.


LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD


My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE


The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY


In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.



The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN


The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.


QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE


Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD


Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Source: http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

 

[The Skeptic]

Not all of the laws. Many laws have evolved differently to suit each community. God says He is the only one who knows what's right and what's wrong and that's why He's telling us. In addition, He warns us from making laws that violate His.

Absolutely! Many laws have evolved differently to suit each community, but the fundamental values these laws are based on are the moral blueprints each culture share. This is why I brought up the ten commandments as the ten commandments are really very simple laws. The need for our laws to evolve is necessary as we as societies become more ethically aware of what's is just. Any law that is resistant to change over time is pretty backwards. In this regard of being backwards, the Sharia Law is a really good example.

Both! No dilemma necessary. All of God's commands are good for us. He tells us in the Quran that He does not benefit from any good we do; that we are the only beneficiaries. And the Hadeeth tells us "God is good. He does not accept unto Him but what's good."

With all due respect, you are missing the point of the question. Let me re-word the dilemma:

Is an act right because god says so, or is an act right because you(personally) and god say it's right?

So in other words, if you commit an act, do you have to wait for god to tell you that it was moral or immoral, or are you capable of personally judging an action for being moral or immoral?

Nop. Educated faith. Blind faith is faith despite evidence to the contrary. Educated faith is admission of a knowledge superior to yours aided by signs testifying to its divinity. That is why God calls verses of the Quran signs (Aayaat) and all things around us signs. All inviting us to reflect on who made them.

Well that's just a matter of semantics...

Faith is belief in something without evidence. Why would you have faith, if you have the knowledge to know something exists? I mean you brought up "educated faith" which I think doesn't make any sense. If a person is educated, that is educated scientifically, then he shouldn't claim something exists for certain based on mere signs. If you have evidence for something, then it's a fact, you wouldn't need faith to believe in it since you have the evidence already...

And there is no reason either to think that we will ever know. Especially when God says we won't in a Book that stood the test of time.

So likewise you shouldn't claim you do know then...

I never said I think we'll know. I used the word "may". So we may or may not know what happens after we die, I'm not holding any faith to that. Just because a book says it knows what happens after we die, isn't really evidence. I say this because Quran isn't the only book that gives a satisfactory answer for what happens after we die.

The questions I posed are like the one you did. Questions to ponder things and realize that we don't know the answer, until God told us. "How come we exist?" is a basic question atheists don't seem to bother with. Millions of people sat under apple trees and observed apples falling on their heads. Most didn't bother to ask, "how come apples fall from trees?" Many may have asked but could never think of an answer. Newton was determined to find out and he did. The question, "how come we exist?" should be treated the same way.

Well I mean no disrespect, but that's an incredibly absurd.

So in other words what you just said is: "I didn't know what happens after we die, but I do now because the Quran says so."

If only everything was this easy...

And I'm not sure why you think as an Atheist, I'd never ask "How come we exist?" I'm a philosophy major, that's one of the major question philosophers ponder over.

The second question I posed, "Why are natural laws so consistent?" is another one to ponder. No explanation was ever given except in the scriptures. Random mutation cannot suddenly become orderly for no apparent reason.

The third question I posed, "Why are so many things in nature so beautiful?" ought to cause one pause. What is the utility of beauty? Did things have to be so beautiful for humans to survive? The only good answer was given in the Hadeeth, "God is beautiful. He loves beauty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Now you're dismissing a reality realized by billions of people over millennia as imagination. You're forming your own theory which you have no proof of.

So the more people believe in something, the truer something is? Long ago, people held to believe the earth was flat, it was a reality realized by billions of people over a millennia....

Is the world flat then?

You mentioned in another post that you read the Quran. If so, then my religious obligation toward you as a human being has ended, unless there are specific questions about the Quran that you'd like us to answer. The Quran is that miraculous sign from God bearing witness to His existence. If it did not move your heart or provoke your mind then there's nothing else we can offer you.

Well yeah it's true, I have read the Quran,hadiths and taffsirs multiple times. My father is Muslim so he made me read the Quran when I was younger. After my parent's divorce I read the hadiths, taffsirs and the Quran again out of curiosity. Alas, it didn't prove anything to me. But, I'm not here for conversion. I'm mainly here because of my friend who asked me to join this site, and I just wanted to converse with a Muslim community over the net.

 

[The Skeptic]

Asalaam Aluakum;


We cannot "give" you God. You must first "open" yourself up and find him yourself.
:tti_sister:

Sounds a lot like what that christian preacher told me about accepting Jesus as my lord and savior the other day when we had a small debate in front of my apartment...

 

[diplomaticmuslim]

interesting arguments. according to islam, muslims cannot 'convert' you. only Allah, God Almighty, can give you hidayah or guidance.

millions of muslims come to islam thru millions of ways. some have dreams, some thru their own prayers, some thru astronomy, some thru medical sciences. not everyone comes thru scientific study and not everyone comes thru mere belief in God. maybe Allah will give guide you maybe not. nobody on earth has the power to convert you to islam.

what i m interested in is finding out where do atheists get their sense of right and wrong? does it come from laws? but the laws are man-made and God does not exist, according to the atheist. is stealing wrong? is lying right? should the public pay for the mistakes of bank managers? who decides? rich people? politicians who have shares and securities in the banks? who decides what is right and wrong?

"Verily in the creation of the Heavens and the Earth are signs for men of understanding..." (surah aale-imran)

 

[mhamzah]

Faith is belief in something without evidence. Why would you have faith, if you have the knowledge to know something exists? I mean you brought up "educated faith" which I think doesn't make any sense. If a person is educated, that is educated scientifically, then he shouldn't claim something exists for certain based on mere signs. If you have evidence for something, then it's a fact, you wouldn't need faith to believe in it since you have the evidence already....

Quran does not demand belief, the Quran invites belief. It is not simply delivered as: here is what you are to believe, but throughout the Quran the statements are always: Have you O man thought of such and such, have you considered so and so. It is always an invitation for you to look at the evidence; now what you believe.

Thats why Muslims are required to have 'Iman' and not faith. Often the word Iman is translated into english as Faith, but thats a feeble translation. Iman means to 'to learn' and to confirm. So when a Muslim has Iman he has checked up on various things and have exhausted all the possibilities and he/she is supposed to arrive at a conclusion based on evidence and not blind faith.

You want evidence, those 4 lectures will give you evidence.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Any law that is resistant to change over time is pretty backwards. In this regard of being backwards, the Sharia Law is a really good example.

Hello The Skeptic,

Please read my post #53 . A skeptical person like yourself seems to have incorrect information and misconceptions about Islam. The laws in Islam does not change! What was revealed over 1400 years ago still applies today! Did you know women in Islam were given voting rights since the revelation of the Quran, while in the U.S. women were given voting rights less than 100 years ago?

You tell me who is "backwards"?

Did you know the Quran revealed that the earth is a spherical celestial body with an orbit? Did you know that the Quran revealed that the Pharoah died while drowning and was recently found true by modern scientists. Did you know that Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings be upon him) split the moon in half for those who rejected his prophecy - but in 1969 Neil Armstrong made a statement that the moon had been split at some point in time.

You tell me who is "backwards"?

For the sake of arguement, let's just say you are "advanced" - are you better than your ancestors? Will your future kids regard you as "backwards"? Will their kids regard their parents "backwards"? This is an endless cycle. Furthermore, as a hypothetical example, let's say there are some creatures in some distant planet today who are more advanced than you, your duty would be endless....you better get going on a shuttle to space and discover the universe or you'll be unfortunate and live backwards all your life! And even if you discovered their advances, then you might have to go back to Earth or some other planet where they upgraded their laws and became advanced than them and even if you discovered the most advanced society, when you die you'll become backwards because they might become further advanced than before. You have a tough duty ahead of you my friend.

You seem to have vast knowledge of sharia law, please enlighten us, give us the source to where you attain your information regarding Islam/sharia law.

You live in a democratic society which changes it's laws every single day! Why do you think laws are ratified & amended? Because they follow their own desires & whims. You would just be a follower of some men who want you to follow their views. We Muslims stick only with God's law because God is perfect and so are His laws! Even if you oppose the democratic system, by nature you are still following your own whims because you are creating man-made guidlines for yourself to follow. You see you claim to be a "free" thinker, but in reality you are not free from your brain, the air you breathe, or even death. Try and free yourself from those. The fact is, God gave you those and you are not grateful of what has been given to you. How can a "free" thinker deny himself as a creation? A creation can not be made without a Creator

If I may ask you, what is the purpose of life?

 

[massi]

With all due respect, you are missing the point of the question. Let me re-word the dilemma:

Is an act right because god says so, or is an act right because you(personally) and god say it's right?

So in other words, if you commit an act, do you have to wait for god to tell you that it was moral or immoral, or are you capable of personally judging an action for being moral or immoral?
................................................................................................................................................................................................................
hi there
1/ prove there is no God exist , then let's talk about moral and immoral !

2/I don't see where is the dilemma for us (as Muslims)!!!
can you tell me why !!!
we believe in God who is All knowing and All wisdom ! so give us an example that our God is wrong in any kind of Law (sharia) as you have good knowledge in Islam !!!

3/ before we answer you : what's the rule to call an act is moral or immoral
from your view .

 

[mhamzah]

:salam2:

Once you are done with listening to those lecture, maybe you can see these videos as well.

http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

 

[The Skeptic]

Hello Skeptic,

You say you deny that God exists because noone have proved you that God exists. Which is fair enough.

However, the problem (for Atheists) is that God cannot be seen.

Just as many many things which cannot be seen.
But we don't deny their existence because of their effect.

Similiarly, noone can show you God (in this Life ). But, there are enough proof that God exists. We will go one by one, I request you to have patience and not deviate from the topic.

Shall we start from the creation of the Universe?

1. I ask you if there is no God who created this Universe?

A typical reply of atheist is that creation of Universe is mere coincidence.
However, Modern Science has refuted this beyond shadow of doubt.

Lets get down to the proofs.

Proof given by Atheists
Atheists who claim that creation of Universe is a mere coincidence presented steady state theory as a reason for the exitsence of Universe.
(Please google steady state theory to find out what it is)
Proof given by Modern Science

But, Modern Science has proved this to be totally unscientific theory just as Theory held by Church that Earth is Flat.

And the reason for the creation of Universe is Big Bang. The first explosion that created Universe out nothing.

And according to scientists the explosion was so meticulously controlled that if there was a deviation of a 1/million the Universe as we know today would not exist.

Who was controlling this when there was no one around ?

It was actually proved by two US scientists Pinzias and Wilson to had put some conditions if the the theory was true.

And observations made my US satellite called COBE sent to space proved them right in less than 10 minutes.

They got Nobel prize for it.

Frankly, I think today Atheists donot have any Scientific proof to deny the existence of God. That does not mean i'm saying that they ever had.

Some Verses from Quran on the Topic:


1.Who created all that exists around us?
اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا
It is Allaah Who has created the heavens, the earth and all that is between them. (32:4)

2.What is the argument against those who deny the existence of God?
أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لا يُوقِنُونَ
Were they created without a Creator? Or were they their own creators? Did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay! They will never be convinced. (52:35-36)


It is a fact that man is a creation .How can a creation come into existence without a creator? It is both unimaginable and incorrect to suggest that man is his own creator. For again there arises a question: How could man create himself when he did not exist? In fact, the belief in a creator having divine attributes is an undeniable fact.


3.What are the signs that prove the existence of Allaah?
إِنَّ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ لايَاتٍ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَفِي خَلْقِكُمْ وَمَا يَبُثُّ مِن دَابَّةٍ آيَاتٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ وَاخْتِلافِ اللَّيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ وَمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنَ السَّمَاء مِن رِّزْقٍ فَأَحْيَا بِهِ الْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا وَتَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ آيَاتٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Surely in the heavens and the earth there are signs for the true believers;
and in your own creation and that of animals which are scattered through the earth, there are signs for those who are firm in faith, and in the alternation of night and day, in the sustenance that Allaah sends down from heaven with which He revives the earth after its death and in the changing of the winds, there are signs for those who use their common sense. These are the revelations of Allaah, which We are reciting to you in all truth. Then, in what report will they believe if not Allaah and His revelations? (45:3-6)

The creation of the universe and the perfection in its design and governing is a proof that there is Someone who is governing it.

4.The perfect physical structure man has is a proof that there is some creator who created him.
The physical structure of the animals being exactly in harmony with their surrounding proves that there is some Creator who knows their requirements. Also it is a Sign of the existence of God that huge animals are domesticated so easily as if they were created for man only.
The constant system of the alternation of day and night and the benefit in it points to the existence of a Creator. Also the psychological, social and physical benefits in the alternation of days and nights show that there is someone who knows.
The water cycle, the dependency of all the creatures on water, the abundance of water on the earth, the co-ordination of the sun, the winds in the rain system points to the unity of God.
In fact every creature in itself is an evident proof of the existence, wisdom and power of the true god, Allaah.

4. Why, then, people do not believe in Allaah when there are so many signs of his existence and oneness?
وَكَأَيِّن مِّن آيَةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ يَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهَا وَهُمْ عَنْهَا مُعْرِضُونَ
There are many signs in the heavens and the earth, which they pass by; yet they turn (their faces) away from them! (i.e. they pay no attention to them!) (12:105)
Man is so busy that he has no time to ponder upon the Signs spread throughout the universe. Then, how can he benefit from them? Even when he comes across something, he turns away his eyes from them.

Hi,

I've replied to your PM regarding this post. Just wanted to give you a heads up. I don't wanna repost my response here since I already PM'd it to you. The 2nd message you gave me, I'll respond to it a bit later. I'm fairly busy with other things. Thanks!

 

[stiks]

Welcome to TTI

 

[The Skeptic]

Hello The Skeptic,

Welcome to this global Islamic forum. I hope you've had a positive experience so far. I believe the brothers & sisters have answered many of your questions. I'd like to refer you to this article by a prominent scholar in Islam, which I pray you will find benenficial, inshallah (God willing).

Thanks for the welcome! I appreciate it!

Source: http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

LOL Yeah I read this before. This isn't new to me. There are many sources out there that debunks this man, but I'll take the time to go by point to point refuting of this as I have the time in the near future.

 

[The Skeptic]

what i m interested in is finding out where do atheists get their sense of right and wrong? does it come from laws? but the laws are man-made and God does not exist, according to the atheist. is stealing wrong? is lying right? should the public pay for the mistakes of bank managers? who decides? rich people? politicians who have shares and securities in the banks? who decides what is right and wrong?

It's a bit sad isn't it to think that without the belief in a god, you would just break down completely and become the most immoral person imaginable? By your own quote that's really what you're implying.

Where do Atheists get their sense of morality?

I can only speak for myself, and not other Atheists. My sense of right and wrong comes from my mother, and just basic observations of life. The world's holy books aren't the only source for a child to learn a sense of right and wrong. Though I disagree that the Quran and the Bible can be used to shape our complete moral compass.

Ever read children books? They are filled with stories that teach moral values.

What makes an Atheist keep these moral values?

Well, as I said before I can only speak for myself. What makes me keep these moral values are simply the love for life. I know that this is the only life I get, so I can either live it immorally, or morally. I choose to live it morally. I think when it comes to moral values, Jesus summarized it best. "Do onto those, as you would have done onto you."

Another quote I live by is "Live and let live." I don't go out and murder someone because I value this life and I don't want to take it away from anyone else.

All of these things is what keeps me morally sane. I don't need god for that.

 

[The Skeptic]

Welcome to TTI

Thank you very much