Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by uniqueskates, Nov 15, 2012.
There goes my thread into the bin. *Sad*
salam 'alikum brother,I just answer using my own experience,and forgive me if I seem too much "egocentric".
before discovering what Islam was,I too was a total unbeliever.I gave to everything a logical sense.about the creation of Adam and Hawwa,I was sceptic,above all because I couldn't realize how could they spread the message and how did the do to make mankind to increase.Now we are about 7 billion(miliardi) human beings on the Earth.it seems impossible that we all came from Adam and Hawwa,but it's so,even if people don't beleive it,do you know why?because everybody knows to have an origin,but he denies it,because of his pride.A disbeliever can ask 1000 questions about his life,but if in the deep of his heart there is not the"seed"of faith,all what he supposes is just fantasy.What is arrived after all the prophets,is fruit of human's desire to "reach the sky",as it made in the past,when the disbelievers build the tower of Babel to reach Allah.Allah then punished them for their disobedience.Nowdays there is the same desire to demonstrate that humans can "create" humans through scientific technics,they also are trying to give an answer to the origin of Mankind after the Big Bang!it's surprising,but it's only their theory,that will be obviously NOT demonstrated,because Allah has the power over everything,and I think that He now is letting them believe it.If that person you mentioned doesn't believe in Islam,it's useless to explain what he can't understand.It should happen to him that so called "miracle" which suddendly opens the eyes to him.
What I've understood in these years is that reading too many books about the theory of evolution,about the Universe,about the afterlife,contributes to confuse the mind.To give an answer to the basical question,it's needed to start from a firm point.I had the chance since my childhood to be open-minded and in my heart I never believed that worshipping statues was the right way.In this way Allah opened my eyes and guided me making me start from new.Your friend needs to be put in front of the evidence.give him a proof of the strenght of Islam:I suppose he doesn't practise his religion(if he has one).when it comes the time for the prayer,start praying and involve him to this practise.This could "programmate" his brain and he maybe will stop confusing himself
My brother, I'm going to talk things that will not be in agreement with your posts. However this will not mean I do not respect you, or that I look down upon you, that I'm judging your or that I'm trying to offend you. So if any of this happens, I ask for your forgiveness ahead of time.
I as a Muslim take the Qur'an and Sunnah as the final word. Period. If it appears that it's in contradiction to something, I doubt that something and not the Qur'an and Sunnah. True, that I ask question regarding the Qur'an and Sunnah because I lack understanding of it too, but if so happens that I have to "choose" between this and "anything else", my choice will be the Qur'an and sunnah. And I ask Allah to grant me more strength and commitment on it.
Evolution is a subject I'm interested in and have studied often, but not too deeply, partly because it is largely used to negate the idea of Allah. I'm more into genetics. I know, both are sorta inter related slightly. Khair, I've also taken my time and studied the other side i.e Creationism. Their points are solid. They are just not "on air".
I advice you to go through a Book called "Islam in the east and west". It's by a Bosian/Herzigovnian writer and their ex president, `Alijah `Ali Izet begovic. I have a hard copy of this book. It's a sad thing you don't live here, I would let you borrow mine. He explains how the "primitive man" doesn't fit into the "most advanced biological animal's" category for several reasons. When you read that book you'll realise how the most intelligent animal i.e ape is different from human in ways that science cannot explain.
My knowledge is lacking, all I know is that Allaah has told us He's created Adam with his own hands like a potter makes pottery from sticky clay. And if anything that contradicts it. It's the "anything" that has a problem and needs more research. I intend to do that research once I'm qualified, until then there is a lot to prepare for. First and foremost, Jannah.
Also, please do go through Hamza tzortzies videos and articals. He's good.
I very much appreciate that. JazaakAllahu khayraa.
A couple of things:
It's a given that whatever happens, happens by the will of Allah. Even the simplest of all genetic combinations are too complex to just queue up on their own. My problem with theory of evolution starts here:
Allah says He's created man with His own hands i.e directly with his hands from clay. Unless, I'm very much mistaken that means there was nothing made in between from which man evolved. There was clay then there was Adam created from it.
What you are talking about may be Miller–Urey experiment (may be, because I can't watch that video, youtube doesn't work here). I have no problem accepting that. That can have happened, let's just say that even life originated that way (as far as I know, experiments until has not been able to produce life, say a simple bacteria. I encourage you to correct me if I'm wrong.) I have no problem believing in that too, because we know from the Qur'an that everything on this earth was present as are now before Adam `Alaihi Salam was sent down to earth. My issue, or most muslims' issue begins with man evolving from ape. It is/appears in contradiction with the verse.
I forgot to mention: My next problem starts after I read the book I mentioned. Alhumdulillah, I found it online:
Read the first chapter: Creation And Evolution
Akh, you leave or stay, is your choice. What you've been called is uncalled for. I don't remember coming across it Alhumdulillah, but I will say TTI is going down some roller coaster rides. If you can, forgive and overlook it.
Okie, dokie. I just wanted to be sure. It's too bad you're leaving. Have a nice day. May Allah (SWT) forgive you, have mercy on you and bless you. Bye.
Yep. We agree on that.
Not bad. You've put a lot of thought into it. However, I'll be forming my opinion on your theory of evolution with caution. It's matter of the deen. I prefer to being very cautious as this is what the case of my eternal life depends on. I would like to see the people of knowledge have a discussion on it. You can actually help me since I'll be a lil caught up soon. I'll PM you in case you want to.
Also, I'm not sure if you've read the chapter from the book I shared. I'd like to see your take on that, because that still something that's prevents me from taking the "science of evolution". My take on it is, evolution only explains the "mass" of a living being. Not the "being" itself.
It's not clear for me. I get you, I get the theory, but like I said, for me it explains the mass not the being itself. After that I do agree with your paragraph above. Science does increases one's awe and admiration of Allah and His power.
Again. Not bad.
Only those who don't want to take Qur'an as the final revelation, don't agree with this.
Wa 'alaikumassalam warahmatullah,
I hope u got the answers to your questions insha'Allah @uniquestates bro...please let us know if there's anything confusing insha'Allah.
People may say things about evolution or Darwinian evolution and I am not sure as I haven't studied evolution in detail,but there is not a single shred of doubt that there is a designer behind the universe and human beings,which is clearly evident from the way things exist around us.In brief,enough for a believer are ayaats,outside signs are need for a bit covered fitrah.
aslam o aliakum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu,
Bhai something i was listening to today i got reminded from ur conversation an american doctor p yes u can be education and not believe in evolution) he mentions alot while explaining human physiology how he doesn't believe in evolution and how it couldn't be but does say that natural selection exist thou. Anyways he was mentioning something like, there is no way, its impossible someone so unique and complicated like me (human) can come to existence just randomly lol bunch of hydrogen ions smashing into each other, making helium blah blah Lol
education doesn't equal agnostic or atheist approach it makes u know Allah (swt) creation better
Wa 'alaikumassalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu,
Indeed brother there are many contradictions even amongst scientist over issues ,I asked our professor a question,whether the thing is that way or are we assuming it,lol you should have been there bhai to see that how he opened the face of how people theorise things just sometimes to save their faces,when there is no way to find out exactly what happened and how,it's almost like ilmul kalam in the conference when they dont have any explanation,thus so far my [email protected] smashing into each other..
Science can be cold and calculated yeah,how can an element which in itself in the last part of analysis comes out to be a part of the equation it is trying to solve,solve the equation?
aslam o alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu
Bhai there are words of two non muslims (from wat i can tell) im listening to them and SubhanAllah its really true what they spoke, alot of people say we are blinded by faith so we dont see the truth well what about them:
same guy comment "
SubhanAllah, you gotto understand the evolution theory thou how everything came from one rna molecule, no matter how many flaws there are or proof against human coming from apes, they are still going to promote it so it fits into their phylogenetic tree or dogma of life
Critical thought is important for Muslims, and indeed all mankind. Allāh discourages ignorance, and rewards those who thrive for knowledge. Never be afraid to challenge your beliefs. The truth can never be faulted. The testing of principles can only strengthen them, if they are indeed correct. Scotty is a great example of critical thought. A true academic. I concur with the views he has expressed. I must however, offer a correction in regards to the human appendix. The human appendix has long been understood to hold no function, and simply be an evolutionary throwback. Whilst there are plenty of good examples of evolutionary throwbacks (i.e. the vestigial tail, which Scotty also referenced), the truth of the human appendix (which was only discovered and confirmed in recent years) is as follows:
[This has been taken from The Scientific American publication.]
Question: What is the function of the human appendix? Did it once have a purpose that has since been lost?
Loren G. Martin, professor of physiology at Oklahoma State University, replies:
"For years, the appendix was credited with very little physiological function. We now know, however, that the appendix serves an important role in the fetus and in young adults. Endocrine cells appear in the appendix of the human fetus at around the 11th week of development. These endocrine cells of the fetal appendix have been shown to produce various biogenic amines and peptide hormones, compounds that assist with various biological control (homeostatic) mechanisms. There had been little prior evidence of this or any other role of the appendix in animal research, because the appendix does not exist in domestic mammals.
"Among adult humans, the appendix is now thought to be involved primarily in immune functions. Lymphoid tissue begins to accumulate in the appendix shortly after birth and reaches a peak between the second and third decades of life, decreasing rapidly thereafter and practically disappearing after the age of 60. During the early years of development, however, the appendix has been shown to function as a lymphoid organ, assisting with the maturation of B lymphocytes (one variety of white blood cell) and in the production of the class of antibodies known as immunoglobulin A (IgA) antibodies. Researchers have also shown that the appendix is involved in the production of molecules that help to direct the movement of lymphocytes to various other locations in the body.
"In this context, the function of the appendix appears to be to expose white blood cells to the wide variety of antigens, or foreign substances, present in the gastrointestinal tract. Thus, the appendix probably helps to suppress potentially destructive humoral (blood- and lymph-borne) antibody responses while promoting local immunity. The appendix--like the tiny structures called Peyer's patches in other areas of the gastrointestinal tract--takes up antigens from the contents of the intestines and reacts to these contents. This local immune system plays a vital role in the physiological immune response and in the control of food, drug, microbial or viral antigens. The connection between these local immune reactions and inflammatory bowel diseases, as well as autoimmune reactions in which the individual's own tissues are attacked by the immune system, is currently under investigation.
"In the past, the appendix was often routinely removed and discarded during other abdominal surgeries to prevent any possibility of a later attack of appendicitis; the appendix is now spared in case it is needed later for reconstructive surgery if the urinary bladder is removed. In such surgery, a section of the intestine is formed into a replacement bladder, and the appendix is used to re-create a 'sphincter muscle' so that the patient remains continent (able to retain urine). In addition, the appendix has been successfully fashioned into a makeshift replacement for a diseased ureter, allowing urine to flow from the kidneys to the bladder. As a result, the appendix, once regarded as a nonfunctional tissue, is now regarded as an important 'back-up' that can be used in a variety of reconstructive surgical techniques. It is no longer routinely removed and discarded if it is healthy.
That's right. You are asking for logical answer but end up some members settling their score at each other. I'm weak in science, that's why I avoid giving suggestion how to tackle this question. Perhaps it will come later from me.
Thanks for this. Allah never creates anything in vain. It was bound to take time for scientists to find the real function of the appendix, but it just wasn't possible that Allah would've created something as a complete useless thing.
wa 'alaikumassalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu,
indeed bhai,intelligent design is very much pointing towards a creator.It's amazing how some people dismiss information in the dna as "redundant",cloaking their philosophies with science.
Also speaking about blind faith,Max Planck the father of quantum physics said,"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words:Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with."
Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,
JazaakAllahu khayraa for the article. There is something similar for tonsils too. Which has been a "vestige" for quite sometime.
However, this is what the "evolutionist" say:
I read this on wiki if I recall correctly. It was in response to Kent Hovind's "Lies in the textbook". I am not able to find it right now.
I'm not sure what to say about that. Is it that they've actually changed the definition of vestigial organs to fit "the new bill" or was it actually this and was largely misunderstood.
Kent Hovind isn't someone I'd take on evolution very seriously but the following is relevent so I'm sharing it:
Time for the old one to step in.
First, all these questions have been discussed in detail through the years on TTI.
Definitions are so important in discussions.
Faith is not merely hope. When you submit yourself, willingly to Allah subhana wa taala you do so without any compulsion. Faith is total submission to Allah subhana wa taala.
Allah subhana wa taala created Adam. And we are all from Adam. He created Eve from the rib of Adam. ( there is a thread on that here, too). Adam needed Eve. Our purpose is twofold. One is to worship Allah subhana wa taala. The second is to be the caretaker of His Creation. We promised Him that. Adam named the ape, ape.
That which was given the soul is not the same as that which has no soul.
As for the human population increasing it is quite simple. Humans can not add..we multiply. Read up on Noah.
Science is a good thing. We can take things apart. We try to control things. We try to understand. In the Quran we are told to seek knowledge. The more we learn about ourselves and our universe the more we have to go back to worshiping Him.
Think for a minute about those who are behind the theory of evolution. Look at the major players at the time. Think of the social and political agenda.
I am always bemused when those who have doubts use the give me scientific evidence. Do not be beguiled by theories. Theories are theories because they are not absolute. They are not laws.
The god-particle experiments are not even theories.
Pharaoh called his high priests did he not. We just have different names.
He says Be and it is. There is no Power except Him.
Let's take gravity. Now, we are rethinking gravity are we not. All that I was taught back in school is invalid about gravity.
How am I stupid if all that I was taught about the law of gravity is now up in smoke?
You did not respond to the capitalistic racist nature of the theory of evolution.
JazaakAllahu khayraa. I wanted something like that. Like I said:
I searched to verify his claims and I came across a page I can't find now. Some of the stuff you shared weren't there as far as I recall. I prefer cross checking. It's always useful.
First and foremost..you are absolutely wrong about Islam and Muslims. The only thing in life that is 100% Absolute is the Quran.
Do not take science to be your god. It helps us to discover the beauty of Creation and the unity of creation.
Gravity. It is the weakest of the forces. What we knew about gravity is changing. Einstein, the atheist, was wrong. Science can be used for propaganda. What do you think Einstein did?! He was not innocent.
Do not belittle the faith of a person if they disagree with you. There is no mention of evolution in the Quran. In the Quran it clearly explains to us how Adam was created. As a Believer that is it.
For many the cure of diseases is found in the first sura of the Quran.
I sincerely believe that you need to take the time to educate yourself in Islam to develop a more sound understanding of the love that Muslims have for science.
Currently, you are coming across as an arrogant youth. Do not do that. It is well and good to be educated. It is good to have a Ph.D. For some it is not necessary. It is not the sign of intelligence. It is a sign of a person who has limited knowledge in a field. The next candidate has the full opportunity in gaining a Ph.D by tearing apart yours.
And you have no qualifications to point fingers at Muslims.
I wish you the best in your endeavor.
please dont fight with our brother mohammed. he is a newly revert who is very kind and sweet. he is also right and i agree with his thinking. just because you cannot comprehend sophistication does not mean it is wrong.
also brother mohaamed (scotty) is not leaving. this is his home and many of us enjoy waht him contribute to website
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