In Search Of Logical Answers?

Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by uniqueskates, Nov 15, 2012.

  1. Tabassum07
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    Tabassum07 Smile for Allah

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    :salam2:

    Something else occurred to me today.. Adam alayhis salaam was 60 cubits tall. I'm not sure how much a cubit is, but that's really tall. How could all those tall giant-sized men have evolved from itty bitty monkeys?

    Okay, I probably opened a can of worms here, but just thinking logically.
  2. Hana Askar
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    Hana Askar Junior Member

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    Evolution does not disprove Allah and certainly science cannot prove or disprove Allah. The methods used are very accurate and hard to deny. Personally, I do not hold evolution as a fundamental aspect determining my faith and I encourage fellow Muslims to reflect upon the verses of the Quran and decide whether the literal rule should be applied.

    The problem isn't evolution but the calling to atheism and accepting that science provides the complete set of answers.
    Islam has always been and will be in harmony with science and the two do not clash in essence; just the perceptions and interpretations we hold.
  3. xAllahKnowsBestx
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    xAllahKnowsBestx Junior Member

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    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:

    "Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adam, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.

    (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 040, Number 6809)"

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said,

    "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.

    (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543)"


    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said,

    "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."

    (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544)"
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  4. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    You capture the problem very nicely! Using evolutionary study, which has not yet fully evolved (pre-mature), to dispute .... and a belief that everything can be explained without a creator. An Agnostic, is uncertain about everything, and is different from atheist.


    Here is a sample, of how arguments go, example using big bang to justify atheism:
    Now whats classical theism! All believers swear - 'God Created Everything'. So the universe was created, it had a beginning. but the creator always existed. So is the debates to justify atheism using evolution.


    All Logical debates. If one goes to courts around the world, they use logic too, and the victim is victimized. Of course, extreme logic... Same applies to logical discussion around evolution, people pump/jump in with their preconceived notion... and it quickly snowballs to something unmanageable.

    Reminds me of a quote, which goes like
    "Heart has a reason, which reason does not know about"
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  5. Hana Askar
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    Hana Askar Junior Member

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    Me neither and I was not implying anything against atheists. I admire seekers of knowledge and scientists fascinate me to say the least. I remember watching a video in which Dr Zakir Naik said that he congratulates atheists as they've completed half of the shahada "there is no god".

    Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God and the reason scientists are inclined towards the belief that God does not exist is because religion does not seem to stand under scrutiny. So, since religion clashes with proven and scrutinised evidence it only further shifts the weight towards the view that God doesn't exist. Of course, the logical conclusion since religion appears to be false in various ways is to leave and dismiss the concept of God.

    From my point of view, we Muslims have nothing to worry about in terms of evolution and firmly standing under scrutiny as Islam is not contrary to science and it is evident in the Quran that Islam does not hold a strict sense of creationism (to the extent in which it clashes with evolution).

    The science and religion debate was an attempt to challenge Christians during the time of Western development in many fields including philosophy. Muslims, however, attained "secular" advancement through Islamic institutions and never faced the clash between the knowledge of God and science/knowledge of the world as was the case in in the West.Throughout time, the two (Islam and science) were and still are in harmony.
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  6. Hassan
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    Hassan Laa ilaha ilaa Allah Staff Member

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    :bismillah1:
    :salam2:

    I'm going to chip in with my 2 cents, maybe more like a nickel.

    Muslims, Christians and so on, we believe. Scientists don't. We cannot logically prove to them that God exists. They cannot logically prove He doesn't. Either you have faith or you don't. Simples

    Scientists don't seem to appreciate how many leaps of faith they take though. They can make observations, and very good observations, there is very interesting stuff in Science. But they do not like to say when they do not know, they will not settle for an interesting phenomena, and are hasty in drawing their conclusions sometimes. I am prepared to give examples. Cut short, they are prepared to add 2 + 2 and get 5, and that is not logical, and is not Science.

    Evolution. My understanding is nobody is saying Man evolved from Apes. The theory is that Man and Ape descended from a common ancestor. Every new pile of bones that is discovered is hailed as the missing link - because there are still links missing. Admittedly Evolution is looking more likely, but fact is, there may never be enough evidence to incontrovertibly prove the theory

    So what if Science says the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Alhamdulillah I learned something. Scientific method shows the planet is very old, that contradicts nothing I read in Qur'an, so no problem. Science shows Man and Ape may have a common ancestor? Alhamdulillah. Evolved, created, Allah swt brought us forward from the dust to which we will surely return. Correct me if I am misguided, I am sure someone will. :)

    I am a scientist, and I am a muslim. There is no conflict - each new scientific discovery only shows how amazing every detail of this Creation is. Islam tells me to read and learn - I only really got down to Science after I came to Islam. In my opinion, religious people who deny Science are closing themselves off from a lot of wonderful knowledge. And Scientists who leave process and take Science as dogma are misguided. Puts me in mind of another favoured quote of Dr Naik :)

    May Allah swt guide us all, and keep us on the path of Truth. Ameen
  7. uniqueskates
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    uniqueskates Rabbe Zidni Illma

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    Bismillah
    AssalaamuAlaikum,
    Do animals have soul? Just a ques that popped suddenly. Forgive me for my ignorance
  8. a_stranger
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    a_stranger Junior Member

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    Assalamu alaikim

    As a muslem I should make things clear in my mind , I believe that Allah is the creator , sustainer , originator of everything else the whole being , people , their minds which think and make mistakes sometimes. A very big gab between the creator and the creation .

    Hearts are lightened by such knowledge , but arrogance put dark spots in hearts .....let us humiliate ourselves praying to our creator with sincere hearts to clear the mist. How can a heart that know the creator most glorified turn back to darkness and doubts?
  9. a_stranger
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    Charles Darwin: "Long before the reader has arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to him. Some of them are so serious that to this day I can hardly reflect on them without being in some degree staggered; but, to the best of my judgment, the greater number are only apparent, and those that are real are not, I think fatal to the theory."
    Toward the end of his life, Darwin openly admitted: "Not one change of species into another is on record.... We cannot prove that a single species has changed into another." (Darwin, Charles, My Life and Letters, Vol. 1. Page 2 10).

    Thomas Huxley said that "evolution was not an established theory but a tentative hypothesis, an extremely valuable and even probable hypothesis, but a hypothesis none the less." (Himmelfarb, Gertrude, Darwin and the Darwinian Revolution, Doubleday and Co., New York, 1859, page 366).

    Dr. Austin H. Clark, noted biologist of the Smithsonian Institute, stated: "There is no evidence which would show man developing step by step from lower forms of life. There is nothing to show that man was in any way connected with monkeys.... He appeared SUDDENLY and in substantially the same form as he is today.... There are no such things as missing links."
    He also said, "So far as concerns the major groups of animals, the creationists appear to have the best of the argument. There is NOT THE SLIGHTEST EVIDENCE THAT ANY ONE OF THE MAJOR GROUPS AROSE FROM ANY OTHER. Each is a special animal complex, related more or less closely to all the rest, and appearing therefore as a species and distinct creation." (Meldau, Fred John, Witness Against Evolution, Christian Victory Publishing Co., Denver, Colo., 1953, page 39, 40, 73).



    Professor Albert Fleishman, professor of Comparative Anatomy at Erlangen University, said, "The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are becoming more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge, nor does it suffice for our theoretical grasp of the facts. The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the product of imagination." (Fleishman, Albert, Victoria Institute, Vol. 65, pages 194, 195).

    Sir William Dawson, Canada's great geologist, said of evolution: "It is one of the strangest phenomena of humanity; it is utterly destitute of proof." (Dawson, Sir William, Story of Earth and Man, page 317).

    And some more quotes:*!

    "In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to `bend' their observations to fit in with it."—*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.*!

    "The problem of the origin of species has not advanced in the last 150 years. One hundred and fifty years have already passed during which it has been said that the evolution of the species is a fact but, without giving real proofs of it and without even a principle of explaining it. During the last one hundred and fifty years of research that has been carried out along this line [in order to prove the theory], there has been no discovery of anything. It is simply a repetition in different ways of what Darwin said in 1859. This lack of results is unforgivable in a day when molecular biology has really opened the veil covering the mystery of reproduction and heredity . . "Finally, there is only one attitude which is possible as I have just shown: It consists in affirming that intelligence comes before life. Many people will say this is not science, it is philosophy. The only thing I am interested in is fact, and this conclusion comes out of an analysis and observation of the facts."—*G. Salet, Hasard et Certitude: Le Transformisme devant la Biologie Actuelle (1973), p. 331.*!

    " `Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact.' A tangled mishmash of guessing games and figure juggling [Tahmisian called it]."—*The Fresno Bee, August 20, 1959, p. 1-B [quoting T.N. Tahmisian, physiologist for the Atomic Energy Commission].*!

    " `The theory [of evolution] is a scientific mistake.' "—*Louis Agassiz, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation, (1966), p. 139. [Agassiz was a Harvard University professor and the pioneer in glaciation.]*!

    "As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?"—*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139.*!

    "It has been estimated that no fewer than 800 phrases in the subjunctive mood (such as `Let us assume,' or `We may well suppose,' etc.) are to be found between the covers of Darwin's Origin of Species alone."—L. Merson Davies [British scientist], Modern Science (1953), p. 7.*!


    In an address to the American Chemical Society, he said: "The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no scientists can do."


    Richard Goldschmidt, Ph.D., Professor of Zoology, University of California, said, "Geographic variation as a model of species formation will not stand under thorough scientific investigation. Darwin's theory of natural selection has never had any proof .. yet it has been universally accepted. There may be wide diversification within the species ... but the gap (between species) cannot be bridged .... Sub-species do not merge into the species either actually or ideally." (Keith, Bill, Scopes II the Great Debate, Huntington House, 1985, pages 55-56).
  10. xAllahKnowsBestx
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    xAllahKnowsBestx Junior Member

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    Let me just swoop in with a reminder from Mufti Menk..

    "It is not necessary for others to think exactly like you, or to agree with everything you say or do and you can still get along very well with them.

    Learn to listen to others and try to understand their views. Then remember that they have their own minds just like you do and they may disagree with you just like you may disagree with them.

    All this does not have to create hatred in the heart."


    Now that's just in general considering this has been a heated discussion. Lets try not to make our differences create hatred in the heart.
  11. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    Scotty, Good that you are getting angry again. Here is something for you. Try it... Disengage your burning anger

    The prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: "Anger is a burning coal. Don't you see your eyebrows wide and eyes reddish? So when one of you feels angry, let him sit down if standing, and lie down if sitting."

    Scotty, I told you this before, I will tell you again, by getting angry, you burn yourself (I know it sounds like am preaching, but if you think its your right to correct others understanding, i feel its my duty to just give you a tip, to calm down.). You must understand that knowledge has different branches. People have different levels of understanding, expertise in these branches. Not all are blessed equally in each sphere. Some are jack of all trades, some are specialists in few areas. Some have a faith that will survive new developments/events (i.e. discoveries, calamities or trials in life). So please, accept this and add yourself humbly, among seekers of knowledge.

    Prophet :saw: said something like the first casualty to a rebel is knowledge.

    And after going through everything you have written today in this post, you give the impression you have learnt in a protected environment. The world outside is different. There are many scientists (atheist), who will fire you from their forums, if you point out to them, "Concluding there is no God using evolution, is a statement of hope". Would you abandon methods and reasoning?
  12. xAllahKnowsBestx
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    xAllahKnowsBestx Junior Member

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    Oh no, brother Mohammed, I hope you didn't misunderstand my post.

    This thread was getting heated and it was just a reminder everyone can benefit from. We can always have discussions without resorting to insults or insulting each other's intelligence. Sister a_stranger is a great sister, and so are you, everyone here is. We can work out our differences with kindness and patience insha'Allaah. That would be better for us. That's all I'm saying.

    I do find the things you say to be enlightening by the way.
  13. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    'Theory of evolution' is a 'work in progress', From the known part of evolution it has a scope, it has limits to what can be explained, what cannot be accounted for. Evolution has been used most often to mis-guide the believers (including muslims) who had no exposure to what evolution has to say. The general opinion of this theory, has a historical baggage. There were court cases in US, disputing whether (evolution theory/ Gods creation ) should be taught to children or not. The secular ie evolutionist was favored.

    Lay mans' understanding of word theory (a guess) is different from academic theories, And all theories gain strength, when the survive scrutiny of methods. Often, theories when applied and probed further, start to show exceptions. This happens late in the cycle, or it takes lab experiments, to find these exceptions. It could take generations sometimes to uncover the exceptions. That's when a dead end of understanding is reached. Big Bang was a theory, it now is accepted as true. It lead to a dead end, that meant universe had a beginning and it matched with creation argument. To address the gaps in reasoning, we have a new multi-verse theory emerging, That will be used again to mis-guide.

    There is a perfect understanding evolutionary findings does not contradict Islamic teachings, but drawing premature conclusions, should be resisted. Using evolution to tell spontaneity of life and that all life variety seen on earth formed on its own, without a creator, is a hopeful statement, but it can turn to a belief subconsciously. The line is thin. The arguments back and forth, futile.

    Evolution is pulled into everything. Usually the mis-coneptions around what evolution says and does not say is much. Heard of terms "survival of fittest", "Might wins" etc. All inspired from evolution the slogan shouters will point.... And some will argue, wrong conclusions. There was once even a Social Darwinism.. premature...

    Strange, no, thats the evolution baggage!
  14. a_stranger
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    Ok son , I am sorry if I lied ,(I didn't this what have been said and taught in other places).......... but believe me one day you will discover that there are people who chooses what to teach, and promote according to their own point of view .......the truth can be decorated , can be twisted .......human mind is not sacred .......
    Islam was revealed from the creator of All . Many muslems believe their is no contraction between Islam and evolution but ........it is out of logic that we are descendent of apes , those who want us to believe so they want to be less human .

    Again I am sorry I didn't want to loose you and I hope I will not.
  15. a_stranger
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    Scotty

    I think you can give us better understanding to the developing science, be patient with us , we have our own points of view . We saw by our own eyes how science continue to grow.......it is not a certain firm facts otherwise it will never change or develop it is human efforts I hope that you forgive our ignorance .....we are not liers , this is the way we believe......I hope you try to understand us.......educate us but please open your mind .....to the fact that science changed through centuries and it will continue to change. As humans we need a solid ground to settle on .....this I think Islam can offer .
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  16. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    Aslam o alaikum scotty i got a question for u not to start a debate but its one of my reasons for not belieiving that we all came from a single ancestor
    Im sure u would knw the genetic code is universal correct? All organism share the same genetic code as evolution says now they also say that in order for eukaryotes to manifest into big organism huge amount of ATP is required so they say in order to do that one of the eukaryotic ancestor engulfed a prokaryote - mitochondria which is really similar to bacteria having circular dna etc now tell me if its all same ancestors why is the genetic code of mitochondria diff, there are other exceptions in mitochondria and also the tRna molecule has sigma, Cm etc diff nucleotide which r not found in the DNA , how do u account for that?
    Btw im still skipping over the fact thats its not possible for endocytosis to take place without the cell lyzome to destroy the cell or organism it engulfed ...
    Again its just a question not a personal attack just showing u somethings :)
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  17. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    bro u missed out on the big ahh (jaw drop!) lol,
    deoxynucleotides are used for DNA they are consisted with the eukaroyotes and prokaryotes

    and the point u missed out was the different nucleotides ...

    http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/Codons.html#Exceptions

    Look the nucleotide in nucleus (normal DNA) encodes specific protein same in prokaryotes n eukaryotes as far as i know BUT mitochondria DNA doesn't follow it

    basically MITOCHONDRIA DNA DOESN"T FOLLOW UNIVERSAL GENETIC CODE

    how can we be from one thing if the genetic code doesn't follow it properly?

    and if you got free time here is something for u to scratch ur head to

    http://www.genetics.org/content/150/1/331/F1/graphic-1.large.jpg

    its the mitochondria genome look at the AA with the specific codons hopefully you see it this time
  18. Hana Askar
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    I'm currently reading this book and I can't put it down. The author does not deny evolution nor does he suggest it is faulty. He points to the aspect of man that is denied and dismissed by atheistic approaches that use evolution to deny God. He suggests that "Man is more than all the sciences together can say about him". He critical analyses various schools of thought including religions and accordingly in the final chapter of the book draws the conclusion why Islam is what we need.
  19. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    aslam o alaikum wr wb


    we are so evolving ;) hehe

    awrah.png

    again nothing personal lol :)

    btw i edited it had to hide their awrah im sure almost everyone knws the real pic here :)
  20. John Smith
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    I look like the one in the middle after a late night and early morning start!

    Jokes apart,

    Is it possible the roles could have been reversed and the Ape came from the man?, basically Man for his sins turned into a monkey? i read that somewhere? Hint Hint :D

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