Marriage without a wali for the girl || Hanafi fiqh

Discussion in 'TurnToIslam Lounge !' started by slaveofAllah88, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    as I told, in our families kind of idea is absurd. Reverts families are not islamic and they will never understand it. Thanks anyways about your explanation.

    Sorry if I expressed myself badly by my English. It is not my first language.
  2. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    Firstly, what brother Ershad said, BaraakAllaahu feeha. I was told it isn't advised to take figh from those of deviant Aqeedah.

    Secondly, Marriage without wali as in (Father, Brother, Uncle's) consent is permissible in Hanafi Madhahab and this view is valid. I mean the court marriage, they are absolutely valid according to the madhab of Imaam Abu Haneefa and thus halal for all those who believe in this view. So if it was this you were trying to address, it wasn't required as the view followed is a valid view.

    Thirdly, One fatwa from one scholar does not mean all else is wrong.

    This is what I've read on mulatqa and other forums. I'll post the source if I find it. However, you do a quick search the Hanafi view on the matter.

    EDIT:

    The topic was lightly touched in these two posts. The first poster is a student from Ummal Qura. The second, we all know.


    Absolutely wrong.

    A virgin can marry without the wali's consent in hanafi's madhab

    And a previously married lady cannot be married UNLESS she gives consent. It is HER permission which is required and not the other way around.
  3. Hard Rock Moslem
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    Hard Rock Moslem I'm your brother

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  4. islamerica
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    islamerica 1 Ummah under God

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    This is taken from that muttaqun website.

    "Women who have previously had marital relations with a man, can represent themselves and do not have to have a wali for seeking the husband, but they WILL need a wali for the actual marriage contract"



    As for virings marrying without wali in hanafi madhab. Here' something from OP:

    "The Hanafi position is that a sane, adult woman can marry of her own accord without the consent of her guardian. They use numerous Qur'anic verses that they see as decisive, and prophetic narrations in conformity with such verses. The proofs that seem to indicate the condition of the guardian as necessary for the validity of the marriage contract are seen in light of such decisive proof. Since they are probabalistic and cannot condition the decisive they are interpreted to refer mainly to recommendation rather than a necessary condition. This is true of all the proof brought against the Hanafi position."

    Basically they are talking of comparing their decisive proof vs those requiring a wali and "interpreting" it as "highly recommended" but still not required. If you are going to put the logic of hanafi madhab allows it then the question that comes up is that are we going to be like the Jews and Christians and be pickers and choosers of our religion? Are we going to jump from one madhab to another because it serves our desires? For those who follow the hanafi madhab, they can follow that view point but for everybody else they have to follow the view of the madhab they belong to or what is said in light of the Quran and the Sunnah. Which states (from muttaqun website):


    Women who are virgins must have a wali when getting married.
    "No marriage is valid without a wali." [related by Ahmed and others and deemed sound by Ahmed, Ibn Hajar and others]

    The Prophet SAAWS said: "There is no marriage without the permission of a guardian." [Sunan of Abu Dawood 2080, Narrated Abu Musa]

    "When a woman marries without the permission of her wali, then her marriage is not valid, not valid, not valid." [Related by Ahmad, Tirmidhi and others. Tirmidhi said, this is a hasan Hadith]
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  5. slaveofAllah88
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    walaikum salam Wa rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

    feel like we will get into a fiqh related issue without going into that just some of clarification

    the aqeedah of the person who wrote the fatwa is sound according to the hanafi student (his aqeedah is sound from wat i know) and the person mentioned by the brother before didn't write the fatwa

    2nd, consent is permissible in Hanafi Madhahab and this view is valid
    this statement, that was the reason for the fatwa, its not as black and white as people put it,InshAllah ill post another fatwa below which should clear things up beautifully

    If you dont want to read the whole thing inshALlah this sums it up really well

    and something very similar to this you will find on islamqa as well , as far as i remember inshAllah

    walaikum salam wa rahamatuAllahi wa barakatuhu


  6. slaveofAllah88
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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh,

    Ukhti, you should look into the hanafi fiqh as well, they are lenient on the issue (read my above post inshAllah) and there is a reason for it and they have their own proof, JazakAllah khair for the hadith, but its better to study the hadith under a scholar who can look at all the evidence and derive fiqh from that, inshAllah.
  7. hayat84
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    hayat84 I'm not what you believe

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    my husband told me that the so called Wali was his aunt.the place where we got married is called "'adhoul",a man who knows very good the Quran,cherged himself with the responsibility of the marriage,he asked me if I accepted my marriage and while he was reading the rights and the duties of the marriage,he finally made me sign the act.it testiefies that our marriege is more than valid.an Imam is a good wali,but the best one was Allah.I don't think that a knowledgeable man could allow me or not to get married,if at first I didn't wear hijab,or I wasn't ready or so on...my parents agreed and I as only one wanted that marriege.it was made me an echography to demonstrate if there was a pregnancy(I was scandalized at first,but this was the procedure,because an arabian girl it's pretty sure she'll be "pure" at the ceremony,while a "stranger"not.)the wali for our daughters will be their parents,they don't need any other permission from anyone.
  8. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    I hope you will be happy in your marriage dear sister hayat84. Don´t worry as your marriage is surely legal also by islamic means.

    *hugs*
  9. hayat84
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    hayat84 I'm not what you believe

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    dear sister Harb,I'm really happy and realized,alhamdulillah.All my husband's relatives love me as part of their family.my mother in law cried when I left her home,everybody there thinks that I'm a good and honest woman,more than they espected;)
  10. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    May Allah bless you and your family.

    :hijabi:
  11. slaveofAllah88
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    slaveofAllah88 Slave of Allah (swt)

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    aslam o aliakum wr wb

    this is wat my friend replied who is studying hanafi fiqh, rest ALlah (swt) knows best ukhti, i really dont want to give you anything from myself cause i dont know much

  12. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    So this is about hanafi only? Many reverts are unsure what kind of madhab they even should follow. Many follow nothing but try to be "just a muslim". As don´t follow any or all.

    Kind of matter is confusing to them. What madhab people normally follow? Same than they family? Or as revert who is marriage then madhab of husband?

    I talked years ago with sister from hanafi madhab and she told person has to decide it by himself, not to follow just because it is common in his family.
  13. slaveofAllah88
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    walaikum salam wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu,

    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/21420/taqleed

    inshAllah that answers your question, most of the people do follow a madhab, the best thing or the rule of thumb as i have heard when i was researching about this matter is to follow the local reliable scholar , reliable meaning he is known to have correct aqeedah, follow quran and sunnah, doesn't belong to any of the deviant sects etc ...
    as muslims its fard, infact its the 1st condition of la ilaha illah to seek knowledge we should have enough knowledge to know sound aqeedah . The fatwa explained things really well.
    Regardless of the madhab, you follow the bottomline is to seek the pleasure of Allah (swt) and not to follow your own desires inshAllah

    regarding conditions of marriage this should help inshAllah, and the wali issue has already been discussed

    marriage.png
  14. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    I don´t respect this very much used IslamQA site but this goes to sense:

    "It is not obligatory for a Muslim to follow any particular madhhab among these four. People vary in their level of understanding and ability to derive rulings from the evidence. There are some for whom it is permissible to follow (taqleed), and indeed it may be obligatory in their case. There are others who can only follow the shar’i evidence."

    Thanks about answer.
  15. slaveofAllah88
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    walaikum salam wa rahmatuALlahi wa barakatuhu

    please take the fatwa as a whole,

    the part you mention, i hope you fully understand it, its not right for layman like us to derive rulings from quran and hadith, the person who has studied islam to such a degree, that he has the ijaza from scholars and he is now at a level to be able to derive rulings from quran and sunnah (mujtahid), and that takes years to get to that point, not anyone can read quran or hadith and derive ruling , thats not the correct approach.
    And i strongly advice against that cause alot of people have been misguided by this approach, you need to understand the quran and hadith as it was understood by people of that time (sahaba (ra)) and how they follow and how the salaf followed it, that requires alot of understand.
    In our case, we will be doing taqleed (Taqlid or taklid (Arabic تَقْليد taqlīd) is an Arabic term in Islamic legal terminology. It literally means "to follow (someone)",), you might not follow the ulema of IslamQA but other respectful scholar as i have explained above.
  16. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    As I wrote; thanks about answer. When I need to know something important about islam I contact to imam, not only take all what is written in internet.

    Hopely you others do the same too.
  17. islamerica
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    islamerica 1 Ummah under God

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    Dear sister,

    was your husband's aunt made a wali or the imam? it seems conflicting and confusing from your post. If it was the aunt then that is not possible, only a male can be wali. As for Allah, He cannot be anybody's wali. It is His rules that we need a wali and two witness and any other stipulations required. In the east many naive young couple run away and get "married" having Allah as their witness or wali or whatever. This is the incorrect way as this is not part of Islam or sunnah. This is a serious matter, you really should talk to a scholar or imam about this to confirm the status of your nikkah rather then listening to people online saying it's ok without any knowledge about these matters. Invalid marriage means one is living a life of zina, which is why it's important to talk to someone of islamic authority to confirm everything.
  18. slaveofAllah88
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    aslam o alikum wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu,

    I second what the sister said, it is something very serious, you should talk to a scholar explain ur situation and confirm.
    May Allah (swt) bless you and make it easy on u - ameen
  19. mezeren
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    Marriage Testimony

    The Glorified Allah commands: “Do not prevent the women from marrying their husbands when they agree among themselves in a lawful manner (in compliance with the Maruf).” (Baqara/ The Cow 2/232)



    Obviously, the word ‘husbands’ in this verse has been used in a metaphorical sense pointing to the candidates, as a woman is naturally married to her husband.

    In another verse the Glorified Allah commands:

    “(And as for those women whose husbands are dead), when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner(in compliance with the Maruf).” (Baqara/ The Cow 2/234)



    The most important step this woman might undertake in her life is to remarry.

    For a marriage the agreement made between a man and a woman hasn’t been considered sufficient. In relation to this issue, every single society has settled its own criteria, which are in accordance with this society’s tradition, beliefs and customs. This is what ‘Maruf’ stands for in these verses. According to the ancient Arabic tradition the daughter was asked in marriage from her father or custodian, the dowry[1] was paid and later the marriage ceremony was done[2]. The Christians made their ceremony under the church’s supervision, while the Jewish ceremony was made under the havra’a tending. In secular societies the ceremony was done with the permission and custody of the civil body n charge.

    The verses forbid the obstruction of women whose marriage decision is in compliance with the ‘Maruf.’- the society’s tradition, beliefs, and customs. The definition of Maruf is a known, familiar, and obvious subject. This knowledge is the one obtained by the customs, traditions, the Book, or the Prophet’s Sunnah. If this knowledge has been obtained by the traditional founts, it is necessary for it not to be contradicting the Quran and the Sunnah. Such knowledge is considered appropriate by both the reason and the religion. Several commands are found in both the Quran and the Sunnah in relation to this issue. The words of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.v.) point out the fact the legitimacy and accuracy of the marriage in relation with the Maruf can be testified by the janitors. He said:



    “There is no marital ceremony without custody![3]”

    “Whoever the woman, who marries without the permission of her custodian, her marriage is batil, her marriage is batil, and her marriage is batil. If the man has a sexual relationship with her, the woman has the right of dowry from this man. If their togetherness is problematic the sultan –the person in charge- is the custodian of those who have no custodian[4].

    The custodian is the person who has the right to make decisions and accomplish them for another person, even without considering the wishes and desires of the person under his custody, what is the name given to this privilege[5].

    Once a man called Hizam had wedded his widowed daughter Hasna. She did not want this marriage; this was why she went to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.v.) and explained everything. He evaluated the marriage imposed by her father as unacceptable. Later, the woman married Abu Lubabe b. Abdi’l-munzir[6].

    Once a maid came to Aysha and told her: “My father wedded me to the son of his brother, so that he can improve his position. I don’t like this.” Aysha asked the young woman to wait till the Messenger of Allah was back. When the Messenger of Allah came, she explained him everything. He sent a man to get this woman’s father and, later, gave her the privilege to decide for this issue. It was then, when the young said:



    “Messenger of Allah! In fact, I had already given my consent for what my father did. I wanted to know if women had any right at all in this issue[7].”

    In a considerable number of countries women do not prefer to be one of the constituent parts in a marriage agreement. Sometimes it might even be difficult to learn if the woman gives her consent for this marriage or otherwise. The advice of the Prophet (s.a.v.) on this issue is: “The widowed woman has more right than her custodian to make a decision while the maid’s consent is mandatory.” Then he was told: “The maids are shy and cannot speak because of their embarrassment.” He replied: “Her silence is her consent[8].”

    “The widow is frank while giving her opinion. While the maid’s silence is the way she shows her consent[9].”



    The well-known sects were skeptic and prejudicial while analyzing the verses and the hadiths, what made them develop different views in relation to this issue. The Hanefi sect with its liberal approach claims that a marriage without the custodian’s consent is quite possible[10]. The Maliki, Shafii, and Hanbeli sects, conservative as they are, have taken the custodian from its original testifying position to a higher position as that of the agreement part is. According to them if the custodian is not a part of the marriage agreement as the representative of the woman side, the agreement cannot be made.



    In a marriage agreement the woman can represent neither herself, nor any other. She doesn’t even have the right to be represented by any other envoy beside her custodian. The father has the authority to wed his maid daughter without even asking her[11].



    The Zahiri sect’s attitude has differed from the others by giving to the hadiths a bigger importance that the one given to the verses of Quran. According to them the woman, no matter if a widow or a maid, cannot marry without her custodian’s permission. If the custodians don’t give their consent the woman can be wedded by the person in charge. “The marital agreement of the maid can be made only if the father and his daughter both give their consent[12].”

    Let’s analyze the evidences these views rely on.
  20. mezeren
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    30.1 The Evidences the Hanefi Sect Relies On

    30.1 The Evidences the Hanefi Sect Relies On

    The sect based all its view upon the ideas of Abu Hanife. His opinion relied on these three verses:

    “(The woman divorced by her husband for the third time) she shall not be lawful to him afterwards until she marries another husband.” (Baqara/The Cow 2/230)

    “(And as for those women whose husbands are dead), when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do[13].”

    “Do not prevent the women from marrying their husbands[14].”



    In these verses, from a lingual perspective the woman is the active subject of the action showed by the verb; in other words Abu Hanife has considered the woman as an active side of the marital agreement, but he has not taken in consideration the condition mentioned in the following part of the two last verses which both point to the agreement’s being ‘in compliance with Maruf’. This has led to the omission of the related hadiths from the analyzing ground and to the misinterpretation of the third verse: “the prevention in the verse is an active prevention of the woman from remarrying, a direct attempt to imprison at home. The command in the verse is directed to husbands, as the verse starts with these words ‘When you divorce your wives’[15].



    As some men try to prevent their wives from remarrying this statement seems quite appropriate. However, this analysis is not complete, if we consider those men who are prevented as well. At the same time, the woman who has completed the prescribed time has no connection to her previous husband, so her new marriage can’t possibly be supervised by him –the ex-husband. This is why it is rather difficult to agree with Abu Hanefi’s viewpoint.



    The Hanefi sect, in relation to the woman who marries without her custodian’s consent, state: “If the woman married without permission, the people in charge consider if the man she chose is her equivalent and if her dowry is compatible to and not less than the dowry given by their husbands to the women of her level. If so there is no right of repudiation from her custodians. If the woman marries a man that is not her equivalent, she has set her family under turmoil, what gives them the right to repudiate the marriage. This is a right known to be of the custodian; the woman cannot turn down such a right[16].



    If the dowry given to the woman by her husband is less than the dowry amount widely accepted to be the right amount for a woman of that level, the janitors have the right to ask for the augmentation of the dowry, or for the couple’s divorce. The reason is that the custodians are proud by a high dowry and embarrassed by a low one. Furthermore, a low dowry is an adversity over the women of that tribe (family), because from that day on, if they marry without agreeing for the dowry, their dowry is going to be as high as the one taken by this woman. As the men are the ones who defend the women’s rights, the repudiation right is theirs[17].

    If careful, it would be noticed that there is no verse or hadith they rely on.

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