Nature or by Nurture?

[Shamim56]

:salam2: everyone,

Hope everyone is at their best. Has anyone here taken a psychology class? If they have im sure they have heard of this debate. I just got introduced to it, however its very mind-boggling.

A big topic, Does the key to who we are lie in our Genes, or in our family, friends, and expieriences?

I believe it is by both, however its very surprising when you see evidence that it is by our genetics. It is supported by darwinism and evolution, which is why i am against it.

This debate conflicts and goes along with many other debates including Homosexuality.

"In 1993 biologists found a variation on the X chromosomes of 33 out of 40 pairs of brothers who were gay-evidence that genes might play a part in sexual orientation. (A comparable marker has not been found in lesbians.) Some denounced the findings as part of a homophobic conspiracy. Others said the genetic link showed homosexuality is natural. 'It makes sense there might be a gene for this' says Micheal Joseph Kaymcgrail. 'Im left handed. Im also gay. I see them on the same level-that i was created this way."

It begs the question if being homosexual is by choice or naturally being born like that. It also goes into if people are obese, that theres a 70% chance of it being inherited.

"The moment the scales began to tip towards nature can be traced back to a 1979 meeting between a steelworker named Jim Lewis and a clerical worker named Jim Springer. Identical twins seperated five weeks after birth, they were raised by families 80 miles apart in Ohio. Reunited 39 years later, they would have strained the credulity of the editors of Ripleys Believe it or Not. Not only did both have dark hair, stand six feet tall and weigh 180 pounds, but they spoke with the same inflections, moved with the same gait and made the same gestures. Both loved stock car racing and hated baseball. Both married women named Linda, divorced them and married women named Betty. Both drove chevrolets, drank Miller Lite, chain-smoked salems and vacationed on the same half-mile stretch of Florida beach. Both had elevated blood pressure, severe migraines and had undergone vesectomies. Both bit their nails. Their heart rates, brain waves and IQ's were nearly identical. Their scores on personality tests were as close as if one person had taken the same test twice"

What is your view and opinion on this?

source:Life Magazine April 1998

 

[dna1987]

Walaikum Assalam.
I also believe it to be both nature and nurture that influences who we are. For example, a person might born with the genes of a possible 1.95cm (6'6'') athlete, but he might grow up for the first 20 years of his life deprived of the right nutrition and physical exercise and turn out to be a 1.85cm (6'1") potato couch. That's a physical example. The example of the twins in the Life Magazine article, I'd say, is an exception. Marrying the same person called "Linda" and then the same person called "Betty" would be more of a coincidence.

Anyways, I think gay people can be gay both due to nature and nurture. There are a lot of cases where (especially women) are abused and beaten by men while they are growing up, and when they are a young adult, they start hating the male gender.

Is it possible to be born gay? Yes it is. Some people are born with their spines not fused completely; some are born with Down Syndrome; and some can be born with hormonal imbalances, which might possibly make the person gay when they grow up. Just because something occurs naturally does not make it "right". If everyone in the world were gay today, then the human race would die out within the next 110 years. The process might occur due to nature, but it is ABNORMAL.

Anyways, most gay people argue that they are "born that way", which by definition means that there is a genetic cause; yet they get super fussed and offended if people try and research the genetics and find a cure for it to stop them being gay.

 

[Tabassum07]

I've pondered about this idea, and I think a person's genetics, a person's environment, and a person's own inner nature (different from genetics) all play a part in determining what kind of individual he/she is.

Someone can go through the same type of hardship but one person chooses to learn and make the best of what life has given them, while another may choose to be angry at life and rebel.

 

[kayleigh]

It's an interesting debate and I think it's a little of both. I definitely don't believe it's all nature, and even though nature does play a role, I think the way you're socialized and your environment play the biggest role.

as for whether or not someone is born gay... I don't really believe they are. I don't believe in the "gay gene". I know for a fact that being homosexual is NOT a conscious choice that someone makes but I don't think that necessarily means that someone is born gay. Sexuality is very fluid and changes over time for many people, so I think it's a bit silly to take something psychological like sexuality and try to pin it to genetics. It really bothers and offends me when people say its a choice though.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

Walaikum Assalam.
I also believe it to be both nature and nurture that influences who we are. For example, a person might born with the genes of a possible 1.95cm (6'6'') athlete, but he might grow up for the first 20 years of his life deprived of the right nutrition and physical exercise and turn out to be a 1.85cm (6'1") potato couch. That's a physical example. The example of the twins in the Life Magazine article, I'd say, is an exception. Marrying the same person called "Linda" and then the same person called "Betty" would be more of a coincidence.

Anyways, I think gay people can be gay both due to nature and nurture. There are a lot of cases where (especially women) are abused and beaten by men while they are growing up, and when they are a young adult, they start hating the male gender.

Is it possible to be born gay? Yes it is. Some people are born with their spines not fused completely; some are born with Down Syndrome; and some can be born with hormonal imbalances, which might possibly make the person gay when they grow up. Just because something occurs naturally does not make it "right". If everyone in the world were gay today, then the human race would die out within the next 110 years. The process might occur due to nature, but it is ABNORMAL.

Anyways, most gay people argue that they are "born that way", which by definition means that there is a genetic cause; yet they get super fussed and offended if people try and research the genetics and find a cure for it to stop them being gay.

:salam2:

No one is gay by nature. This is not even supported by scientific research. Identical twins (with same sets of genes) were tested in one case study. One had homosexual tendencies while the other was totally normal. None of this *homosexuality* was attributed to genetics at the end of the day by these scientists. The joke was that the gene was 'hiding in the closet' as well (if you follow the pun here).

Allah azz zawajal doesn't put a curse on someone by punishing him for something that was in his/her nature itself (such as genes).

Homosexuality is a psychological disorder and was listed as a psychological disorder up until the late 1970s I believe. They were 'gay equality rights' zealots who forced the APA (American Psychiatric Association) to take out the listing of *homosexuality* as a mental disorder. Thereby depriving many individuals from understanding why they had such tendencies and seeking treatment.

There have been numerous success stories of people with homosexual tendencies who visit psychiatric clinics across the states and undergo therapy. They are able to rid themselves of 'homosexuality' if I may put it that way.

No one is born gay. Instead it is a lifestyle choice taken up by certain individuals who may or may not suffer from certain mental disorders. Most of the recent researches show absence of care from male guardian (father) during youth can lead to such tendencies and disorders.

Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi

 

[arzafar]

there is no gay gene. if there was one we could identify gay people from straight ones by doing some kind of test.

comparing homosexual behavior to genetic characteristics like height and color doesnt prove anything.

also i find it strange that homosexual behavior if genetic should survive. natural selection should mean that straight people are able to pass on their genes in overwhelmingly large quantity compared to gay gene. so after millions of years any existing homosexual behavior should be gone or become extremely rare. But it turns out that homosexual behavior is rising! either natural selection is wrong or homosexual behavior is learned. actually i think it's both.

i believe that humans are born straight but their surroundings can change them.

eg. many straight people turn gay in prison; after coming out of prison they become straight again. could it be possible that gay people living with the opposite sex for a prolonged period of time could become straight?

i think the rise in homosexuality may be attributed to the loss of gender in the society. women wear men's clothes, behave like men; men shave and dress up and behave like women. there are few feminine women and masculine men left.

similarly the media circus supports homosexuality. Female models resemble prepubescent boys more than women. (short hair, very thin body etc). many other popular models have masculine face and frame. the male models are competing in becoming beautiful, wearing fitted clothing etc.

widespread nudity and sexual freedom are also important factors.

the 'choice' debate is typical western philosophical, pseudo-scientific bs to misguide people and hide the real issue.
when you drive fast you risk an accident. FACT!
do you injure yourself by choice? NO
can the injury be prevented? YES

homosexuality is a bit like that.
if you have public baths/swimming pools, nude beaches, gender neutral society and sexual freedom from a young age (or conversely sexual deprivation for a long time), dont be surprised to see a rise in homosexual behavior.

homosexual behavior can be reduced drastically by taking necessary precautions but it cannot be totally prevented. There will always be the odd exception. this doesnt mean that it's natural!!!

 

[saif]

I've pondered about this idea, and I think a person's genetics, a person's environment, and a person's own inner nature (different from genetics) all play a part in determining what kind of individual he/she is.

Someone can go through the same type of hardship but one person chooses to learn and make the best of what life has given them, while another may choose to be angry at life and rebel.

:salam2:

I don't think, there is a need to distinguish between genetic qualities, which include character qualities of persons, and that what you call inner nature. If the genes can determine, if you will be agile or slow, aggressive or peaceful, then to me, it is the inner nature.

From an islamic perspective, I think, we are forgetting the most important factor, and that is the self-determination. This is dehumanizing, if we define human beings merely a product of genetic qualities and social upbringing. Human being is a much more wonderful creature. Even a son of robbers and robber himself can always change himself by a sincere repentence and a strong self-determination. Now a simple question will make the islamic perspective on that subject very clear. Think of an adult, born in the house of robbers. Will he not get punished for his robberies, just because his parents did the same? No matter, how bad the parents were, the responsibility of a person merely lies on himself. And if there is some concession because of that, then only Allah knows about it.

So here is my list:

1. Self determination
2. Social upbringing
3. Genetic qualities

No one is gay by nature. This is not even supported by scientific research. Identical twins (with same sets of genes) were tested in one case study. One had homosexual tendencies while the other was totally normal. None of this *homosexuality* was attributed to genetics at the end of the day by these scientists. The joke was that the gene was 'hiding in the closet' as well (if you follow the pun here).

Allah azz zawajal doesn't put a curse on someone by punishing him for something that was in his/her nature itself (such as genes).

Dear brother, you seem to be confusing two different things: (1.) having homosexual tendencies, which can be caused by a pychological disorder (as you put it) or genetic disorder and (2.) being homosexual. No matter, if the homesexual tendencies are caused by a person's self determination or by any disorder, for which he or she cannot be blamed, homosexuality remains haram and its punishment remains the same. So there is a difference between being a born gay (which makes as less sense as being born robber) or having homosexual tendencies because of a disorder from birth on (genetic) or caused by some later circumstances (psychological).

Certainly Allah does not punish for having something in nature but punishes or rewards us for what we do out of our nature. One simple example will elaborate it: It is well known observation, that some people are brave and some are cowards ( And they cannot always be blamed for that). Yet, is that an excuse for a muslim to turn his back from the enemy in Jihaad? Certainly not. Certainly, for some it is a bigger test than others, and accordingly, we hope, there will be reward for them.

In the same analogy, for some even the thought of homosexuality is disgusting, and for some it can be a hard test to avoid it, and accordingly, we hope, there will be reward for them.

 

[dna1987]

as for whether or not someone is born gay... I don't really believe they are. I don't believe in the "gay gene". I know for a fact that being homosexual is NOT a conscious choice that someone makes but I don't think that necessarily means that someone is born gay. Sexuality is very fluid and changes over time for many people, so I think it's a bit silly to take something psychological like sexuality and try to pin it to genetics. It really bothers and offends me when people say its a choice though.

Genetics and biochemistry affect the "psychology" of a person. When we feel "happy" or "sad", the changes in certain chemicals have already been discovered. For example, low levels of serotonin and dopamine in the body can make a person depressed. Now, if a person is born with a gene that causes them to produce less of these chemicals (neurotransmitters), then such a person will be more likely to be depressed over events that happen in life than others in the identical situation (note: generally, no two cases are every identical).

If you say that a person is not "choosing" to be gay and that they are born with it, then by definition there is a genetic and hereditary cause for it. If a person's sexuality changes over time or as they age, then that should also be able to be detected. For example, a lady's libido (and sexuality) changes a lot as she ages and then eventually goes through menopause. It's not just psychological, and it's not the same for every woman, but you can see and predict the general hormonal changes in most women.

:salam2:i

No one is gay by nature. This is not even supported by scientific research. Identical twins (with same sets of genes) were tested in one case study. One had homosexual tendencies while the other was totally normal. None of this *homosexuality* was attributed to genetics at the end of the day by these scientists. The joke was that the gene was 'hiding in the closet' as well (if you follow the pun here).

Allah azz zawajal doesn't put a curse on someone by punishing him for something that was in his/her nature itself (such as genes).

Homosexuality is a psychological disorder and was listed as a psychological disorder up until the late 1970s I believe. They were 'gay equality rights' zealots who forced the APA (American Psychiatric Association) to take out the listing of *homosexuality* as a mental disorder. Thereby depriving many individuals from understanding why they had such tendencies and seeking treatment.

There have been numerous success stories of people with homosexual tendencies who visit psychiatric clinics across the states and undergo therapy. They are able to rid themselves of 'homosexuality' if I may put it that way.

No one is born gay. Instead it is a lifestyle choice taken up by certain individuals who may or may not suffer from certain mental disorders. Most of the recent researches show absence of care from male guardian (father) during youth can lead to such tendencies and disorders.

Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi

Dear BrotherInIslam7, please read this. Also the second paragraph is good for sister kayleigh. (You both have opposing view by the way, brotherinislam, you're saying that you can't be born with it, and sister kayleigh, you're saying that you don't think it's a matter of choice).
From a Neurology textbook:

The favored hypothesis for homosexuality is that differences or variations in genetic patterning of the nervous system (possibly of the hypothalamus) set the sexual predilection during early life. Several morphologic studies of the hypothalamus are significant in this regard. Swaab and Hofman have reported that the preoptic zone is three times larger in heterosexual males than it is in females, but it is about the same size in homosexual males as it is in females. As mentioned in LeVay found that an aggregate of neurons in the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus is 2 to 3 times larger in heterosexual men than it is in women, and also 2 to 3 times larger in heterosexual than in homosexual men. If confirmed, these findings, which have been disputed by Byne and others, would support the view that homosexuality has a biologic basis. Genetic studies point in the same direction. Pooled data from 5 studies in men show that approximately 57 percent of identical twins (and 13 percent of brothers) of homosexual men are also homosexual. The figures for lesbians are much the same. In most studies, the inheritance pattern of male homosexuality comes from the maternal side, implicating a gene on the X chromosome.

Psychoanalytic explanations of homosexuality have never been substantiated. Attempts to demonstrate an endocrine basis for homosexuality have also failed. The most widely held current view is that homosexuality is not a mental or a personality disorder, though it may at times lead to secondary reactive disturbances. The studies of Kinsey and colleagues indicate that a homosexual orientation cannot be traced to a single social or psychologic root. Instead, as indicated above, homosexuality seems to arise from a deep-seated predisposition, biologic in origin and as ingrained as heterosexuality. The status of bisexuality is undetermined.

Thus based on this, I believe that in most cases, there is a genetic cause for being gay. I also believe that in some cases, people can be forced by nurture and their upbringing to be gay. Just like with diabetes, you can get it from having an unhealthy lifestyle; you can get be at a higher risk of getting it than others who have the same lifestyle; or you could just be born with a genetic defect that prevents you from making insulin and have it from a very young age.

A case study looking at only one set of twins is not accurate enough for a definitive conclusion. Also, Allah subhannawatala has allowed other people to be born with a whole range of genetic abnormalities. Like hundreds of thousands, why wouldn't this one be in that category too? It'd just be another test.

The most important factor here is, whether this is a normal or abnormal thing; and it is most definitely an abnormal phenomenon. Sjorgren's sydnrome, Down's syndrome, autism, etc, can call occur due to nature, but doesn't mean it is normal or good to have them.

 

[dna1987]

there is no gay gene. if there was one we could identify gay people from straight ones by doing some kind of test.

It's not that simple. A genetic cause does not mean that there is a one single "gay gene" that some people have and some people do not. It could be a combination of genes together that makes part of the brain develop abnormally.

:salam2:
So here is my list:

1. Self determination
2. Social upbringing
3. Genetic qualities

Good list. Though my list, in order of significance, would be:
1. Genetic qualities
2. Social upbringing
3. Self determination

The point you made is a very good one. Whether it's a genetic cause or it's due to upbringing (and I believe it's both, it depends on the situation), the fact is that being gay is abnormal. Even an atheist should agree with that. For Muslims, we know it to be abnormal and a sin. If a person has homosexual urges, they should still refrain from committing homosexual acts. Perhaps, that is their test in this life.
Assalam alaikum.

 

[al-fajr]

The curse of democratic societies: Normal is redefine-able.

Whether it's a genetic cause or it's due to upbringing (and I believe it's both, it depends on the situation), the fact is that being gay is abnormal. Even an atheist should agree with that.

Abnormality is just the deviation from the majority; the majority is a changeable entity. There are no set rules and regulations which clearly states how or what is okay and what is not. The decline of the influence religion (Christianity) has on the moral basis of western society is really stark. Currently for example, assisted suicide isn’t accepted, but I predict in around 50 years or so it’ll be accepted as norm.

Homosexuality can’t be likened to Downs, Patau’s or whatever other genetically related syndrome in existence because the essential difference between homosexuality and these syndromes is that it is readily accepted as a norm and life style ‘choice’ which is why, as you stated yourself, its taboo to base research on finding a cure or even to say that its ‘abnormal’.

Watch a couple of minutes of this, after 14:30: Starkly demonstrates what democracy and atheism has brought about ..for the people, by the people of the people or whatever it is, is all dandy until it comes to determining morality ethics and anything important. (Lol, they all need Islaam ..)

Note: the majority in that audience are supposed to be highly educated intellectuals (mostly science type people), look how they all raised their hands for the motion! So, whether or not Homosexuality is genetics based or not, in my estimation it doesn't carry much weight for the future, its already well beyond the point of being seen as a disorder.

Wa-alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

 

[arzafar]

It's not that simple. A genetic cause does not mean that there is a one single "gay gene" that some people have and some people do not. It could be a combination of genes together that makes part of the brain develop abnormally.

yeah so the the combination of genes should be distinguishable enough to be able to differentiate between gay and straight. sine that's not the case, homosexuality is not genetic.

anyways let's suppose it is genetic. since gays cant reproduce, shouldn't the number of gay reduce over time. Only straight pairs will reproduce so why is gay population increasing. obviously there is more freedom for homosexuals in the last few decades but it seems to me that homosexuality is increasing exponentially. how would you explain that?

 

[DanyalSAC]

I also do not believe that there is a "gay gene" or that homosexuals are born that way. I have had this discussion with my mother, she said "I was there!" (meaning when I was born, she knew what I was "from day one!"). She also argues against "nurture"; using my older brother as an example. We had the same environment and he grew up hetero...though, I think in his case he was "messed up" too as he's been married almost half a dozen times and is carrying a horrible anger problem.

However, I also have to disagree with what my esteemed BrotherInIslam7 said up above "There have been numerous success stories of people with homosexual tendencies who visit psychiatric clinics across the states and undergo therapy. They are able to rid themselves of 'homosexuality' if I may put it that way."

That is a misconception. They are not able to "rid" themselves of their orientation, but they are able to suppress it and have it not be the driving force behind their lives. Many of them are happily married with the ONLY person of the opposite gender they are sexually attracted to - their spouse.

Its no secret that for almost four decades I lived that lifestyle. I stepped away from it before I became Muslim. When I embraced Islam I turned my back on it for good. It will always be part of me though; its my personal jihad that I deal with daily. Am I complaining? Nope. I am happier now as a practicing Muslim than I ever was as a practicing gay man. I don't want to make this tread about me though. I do have other Muslim brothers - friends who I've known for years and years - who also have embraced Islam and are struggling with self hate because of this.

I guess in a rambling way I am saying that in my experience its not something that one chooses however it is something one can avoid. With a bit of self determination.

If any have been offended by this, I ask forgiveness.

Peace
D.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

If you say that a person is not "choosing" to be gay and that they are born with it, then by definition there is a genetic and hereditary cause for it.

This hasn't been proven by any research study that there is either a hereditary or a genetic cause that can make one to be most likely to be homosexual. As brother arzafar mentioned, since gays don't reproduce their numbers should be substantially decreasing as they won't have off springs who can carry on their genes etc. This logic is flawed and not proven by any honest scientific study.

A case study looking at only one set of twins is not accurate enough for a definitive conclusion. Also, Allah subhannawatala has allowed other people to be born with a whole range of genetic abnormalities. Like hundreds of thousands, why wouldn't this one be in that category too? It'd just be another test.

You are missing the point. The case study was designed this way as both twins have the same identical set of chromosomes. One of the twin was gay while the other wasn't. They tried to find out a gene or *supposedly * chromosome X that led to homosexuality. At the end of research they concluded that they found absolutely nothing different genetically between the pair. This lead them to conclude that homosexuality can't be treated or understood through research in genetics.

I hope this makes it clear.

As I mentioned there are certain psychiatric clinics in the USA that claim 95%+ success rate with therapies designed for people seeking treatment with homosexuality.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

However, I also have to disagree with what my esteemed BrotherInIslam7 said up above "There have been numerous success stories of people with homosexual tendencies who visit psychiatric clinics across the states and undergo therapy. They are able to rid themselves of 'homosexuality' if I may put it that way."

That is a misconception. They are not able to "rid" themselves of their orientation, but they are able to suppress it and have it not be the driving force behind their lives. Many of them are happily married with the ONLY person of the opposite gender they are sexually attracted to - their spouse.

:salam2:

Thanks for correcting me and providing your input, respected brother. I should have left it at seeking treatment and not used that phrase. Anyhow, I can understand how treatment would assist someone to suppress such tendencies.

And I hope that I haven't offended anyone either. I wouldn't have posted on this thread had it not been for one of the posts linking homosexuality to genetics which I have read and heard to have no scientific basis. I just wanted to point that out..

 

[arzafar]

I also do not believe that there is a "gay gene" or that homosexuals are born that way. I have had this discussion with my mother, she said "I was there!" (meaning when I was born, she knew what I was "from day one!"). She also argues against "nurture"; using my older brother as an example. We had the same environment and he grew up hetero...though, I think in his case he was "messed up" too as he's been married almost half a dozen times and is carrying a horrible anger problem.

However, I also have to disagree with what my esteemed BrotherInIslam7 said up above "There have been numerous success stories of people with homosexual tendencies who visit psychiatric clinics across the states and undergo therapy. They are able to rid themselves of 'homosexuality' if I may put it that way."

That is a misconception. They are not able to "rid" themselves of their orientation, but they are able to suppress it and have it not be the driving force behind their lives. Many of them are happily married with the ONLY person of the opposite gender they are sexually attracted to - their spouse.

Its no secret that for almost four decades I lived that lifestyle. I stepped away from it before I became Muslim. When I embraced Islam I turned my back on it for good. It will always be part of me though; its my personal jihad that I deal with daily. Am I complaining? Nope. I am happier now as a practicing Muslim than I ever was as a practicing gay man. I don't want to make this tread about me though. I do have other Muslim brothers - friends who I've known for years and years - who also have embraced Islam and are struggling with self hate because of this.

I guess in a rambling way I am saying that in my experience its not something that one chooses however it is something one can avoid. With a bit of self determination.

If any have been offended by this, I ask forgiveness.

Peace
D.

that's exactly what i was saying with driving fast analogy. however, id also think that the family/society has a part to play in this, perhaps that's why the whole nation of Lut (as) was punished.

moreover sexual orientation is not fixed per say and in fact depends upon the environment. eg in prison straight become attracted to same sex but then become straight once they are released. british brainwashing corporation did a documentary on this. Indeed Islam tells us to hide our private parts from everyone apart from our spouses (which are opposite sex off course).

This leads me to conclude that homosexuality is learned and therefore can be avoided. btw you should help your brother if your fear he is suffering.

 

[dna1987]

This hasn't been proven by any research study that there is either a hereditary or a genetic cause that can make one to be most likely to be homosexual.

Yes there is, I just posted a whole chapter with a conclusion based on a range of studies done on a large sample of participants. Part of the hypothalamus in the brain is larger in straight men (2 to 3 times bigger) than gay men. I don't understand how you can make such a statement right after I posted a few studies. Part of the chapter is in my last post, please read it. The question now lies as to why that part of the brain does not develop fully in gay males. Are their a group of genes that cause it? Is it because the mother is under a lot of stress during pregnancy? More research needs to be done on that.

Also, hormonal imbalances can occur. The gender of a baby is not confirmed till a few months into the pregnancy. Females born with too much male hormones often turn out to be more masculine, and males born with female hormones often turn out to be more feminine.

As brother arzafar mentioned, since gays don't reproduce their numbers should be substantially decreasing as they won't have off springs who can carry on their genes etc. This logic is flawed and not proven by any honest scientific study

That is a very simplistic approach to genetics. Using the same logic, there should be no more infertile people left in this planet, as they cannot reproduce either, how are their genes passed on? I'll tell you how, it could be that a person is has a recessive gene and their husband or wife also has such a gene, and in combination their children are more likely to be gay. It could be that there is a group of genes and not an individual "gay gene" that may cause part of the brain to develop abnormally. Perhaps it's a spontaneous random mutation, similar to many other diseases.

You are missing the point. The case study was designed this way as both twins have the same identical set of chromosomes. One of the twin was gay while the other wasn't. They tried to find out a gene or *supposedly * chromosome X that led to homosexuality. At the end of research they concluded that they found absolutely nothing different genetically between the pair. This lead them to conclude that homosexuality can't be treated or understood through research in genetics.

No, you are missing the point. Even if this case study you mention is true (reference?), it does not disprove the genetic theory. They are not polar opposites, and that's why I said it's possible to be gay due to both nature or nurture.

I used the analogy of diabetes earlier; the treatment is not the same for everybody. Some people have it due to their lifestyle and the treatment includes eduction and a range of drugs that increase insulin sensitivity in the body (there body produces enough insulin). While another portion of diabetics have a genetic cause where they don't produce any insulin at all. What you are doing is talking about a possible research paper saying that an unhealthy lifestyle causes diabetes, and therefore there can't be a genetic cause, which is not true.

Also, I agree with what brother arzafar is saying about how homosexuality is being promoted and modern society might shape more and more people up to be gay. Instead of encouraging treatment, they are trying to normalise something that is abnormal. But to be honest, I think the vast majority of people do NOT want to be gay, who in their right mind would? They are obviously not choosing to be gay if they had the choice to be straight, it doesn't take a lot of common sense to work that out. Something in their system is making them turn off from people of the opposite gender. I remember when I first joined TTI back in 2006, there was a poster here who was a devout Muslim from Pakistan who said he was attracted to males and not to females, and asked everyone to make dua for him to get better - I'd say he has had some developmental problems, and he's not choosing to feel that way as a lifestyle choice.

As I mentioned there are certain psychiatric clinics in the USA that claim 95%+ success rate with therapies designed for people seeking treatment with homosexuality.

If there is a 95%+ success rate, then that's a good thing. Psychiatry clinics don't just provide counseling by the way, but also can provide a person with a whole range of drugs for the brain. Such drugs and the development of more specialised and specific drugs may help those gay people that had abnormal brain development as a fetus.

Assalam alaikum.

 

[dna1987]

yeah so the the combination of genes should be distinguishable enough to be able to differentiate between gay and straight. sine that's not the case, homosexuality is not genetic.

anyways let's suppose it is genetic. since gays cant reproduce, shouldn't the number of gay reduce over time. Only straight pairs will reproduce so why is gay population increasing. obviously there is more freedom for homosexuals in the last few decades but it seems to me that homosexuality is increasing exponentially. how would you explain that?

To the first paragraph, I'd say more research needs to be done. The facts are that gay people do have different brain development from those people that are straight. Why do they have different brain development? We don't know yet. A huge problem is that a lot of people against gay people don't even want to spend time/money/effort to do the research, and the even bigger problem is that a lot of actual gay people get offended if anyone suggests that perhaps they can "cure" homosexuality. It's been normalised so much, that they actually want to remain gay! Crazy nuts.

My concern is those people, specifically Muslims, that do not choose to feel attracted to people of the same gender. What if it's not only due to the environment and what they are exposed to, but also how they develop? Perhaps with medication they can be cured over time. Perhaps potential children at risk of becoming gay after puberty can be identified, and then initiated on said treatment to make sure they are better by the time they are adults.

Second paragraph. Let's assume it's genetic, why are their more gay people now? Well let's break it down into bits. Firstly, are the numbers increasing exponentially? One European study (Schmidt, G. 2004) showed that the number of gay people in Hamburg actually dropped from 19% in the 1970s to 2% in the 1990s.

Maybe though, the answer has already been mentioned. Gay people have become more public and vocal and being gay over the last 50 years; where they would hide their abnormal preferences in the past, they are feeling more comfortable about "coming out of the closet". Also, there is a lot more talk about gay stuff and gay issues today than ever before, it's in the news all the time. That doesn't mean that there are more gay people.

Lastly, in a lot of places, being gay is promoted as a possible lifestyle or "something to try out". That could also be a theory. That doesn't mean that others can't be born abnormally.

Anyways, in the end I think we all agree that it is abnormal, haram and forbidden in Islam.

Assalam alaikum.

 

[besmiralalbani]

salam alaykum

As a Muslim I can say about our nature:

‘Every new-born child is born in a state of fitrah. Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian or a Magian, just as an animal is born intact. Do you observe any among them that are maimed (at birth)?’
(I. M. Hanîf, Sahîh Muslim bisharh al-Nawawî, Book of Qadr, Vol. 16 (al-Matba‘at al-Misriyyah bi al-Azhari, 1930) p. 207.)

So it is for the Gay, who is being influenced by all this stuff we hear from television, magazines, internet, and this are the 'weapons' of shaytan, that makes the persons think: It is normal... It is his nature... It is love...
Different names for the same purpose: MISLEADING MANKIND

You can read more about FITRAH in this thread:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12911

salam alaykum

 

[kayleigh]

Genetics and biochemistry affect the "psychology" of a person. When we feel "happy" or "sad", the changes in certain chemicals have already been discovered. For example, low levels of serotonin and dopamine in the body can make a person depressed. Now, if a person is born with a gene that causes them to produce less of these chemicals (neurotransmitters), then such a person will be more likely to be depressed over events that happen in life than others in the identical situation (note: generally, no two cases are every identical).

If you say that a person is not "choosing" to be gay and that they are born with it, then by definition there is a genetic and hereditary cause for it. If a person's sexuality changes over time or as they age, then that should also be able to be detected. For example, a lady's libido (and sexuality) changes a lot as she ages and then eventually goes through menopause. It's not just psychological, and it's not the same for every woman, but you can see and predict the general hormonal changes in most women.

I said that I don't believe someone is born homosexual, either. I don't think anyone is ever going to find a reason for it. I don't think sexuality can be pinned down to specific genes. You're right - genetics can effect how the brain works, but there's a whole lot about the brain that can't be explained yet. You can't look at someone's genes and know how they will react in a given situation.

To be honest, I don't see the purpose of putting so much thought into it either. If someone is gay then they're gay. If someone isn't, then they aren't. I don't see why people need to find something to "blame" for it or justify it.

I don't personally know any homosexuals that believe in a gay gene, though I'm sure they exist and it seems kind of strange. It seems to me like they're looking for a reason to apologize and explain away why they are the way they are, which is sad because they don't really owe anyone an explanation since its their own personal business.

as for finding medication to "cure" homosexuals... that sounds like a disaster. Diagnosing and prescribing medication for mental health is just educated guess work - you keep guessing, prescribing a drug, and then changing it when you get no results or bad results. In many cases it does more harm than good. Giving medication to people to "cure" homosexuality sounds like it would damage people mentally and emotionally more than anything else.

 

[arzafar]

brother dna thanks for responding, however you didnt address the following

why do perfectly straight men and women become gay in prison? im not talking about rape but attraction to the same sex that many prisoners have reported. after being released some of them become straight again while others remain gay. what do you reckon? dont tell me they were born gay and discovered later in life, because clearly they were not.

and cmon bro you provide % numbers of gays in Hamburg. The immigrants from muslim lands to germany may well be one of the main reasons for the reduction in the % of gays. id like to see the number of native gays expressed as a percentage of native populace of the city.

as far as the 'cure' goes i have no idea. However, changing the environment and self control should do good.