Rapists have visitation right in 31 states

Discussion in 'New and Current Affairs' started by Hajjerr, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. Hajjerr
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    Hajjerr He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram

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    Wa aleykum salam

    Dear sister, i hope you dont bring these statistics to show that women put themselfs in situations like this, to be a rape victim....these women are not as worthy of mercy as the men are ?
    That is not a fair share of forgivness.
    And is about the choice of the woman, not of the society.
    She may have forgiven him, but that does not mean to let a criminal in your life and next to your child.
  2. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Sister,

    Several issues going on here:

    1. You are discussing the laws of country that is not Muslim. It has nothing to do with us.

    2. You are discussing forgiveness. Once a society deems an appropriate punishment and it has been served by the definition of forgiveness it is over.

    3. I do not understand what you mean by a fair share of forgiveness. That makes no sense. You are discussing a legal issue and conflating it with a psychological issue. Furthermore, in the legal world if a woman accepts money for child support there are custodial issues. In the case of the Massachusetts man, the victim's lawyer is asking for restitution and not child support. That makes sense.

    4. What is upsetting with this thread is the finger-pointing of what is wrong in the kufr world. It is a no brainer that there is a lot wrong. But, we have the same issues in the Muslim world. We have women who are raped and placed in prisons. We have the honor killings. And, I do not wish to go there. Thus, making the comparison is of little use. Rape is a horrific crime. It is devastating to the victim. It is a crime that places blame on the victim. He/She is the one who carries the shame. And it is under reported.
  3. Hajjerr
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    Hajjerr He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram

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    Wa alykum salam

    Yes sister, i knew from the start that this upsets you but only moderators can decide what subjects are not suitable for this site.
    Thank you and Allah knows best.
  4. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    It should be upsetting to all Believers. It is not dignified for Believers to finger-point. We have too much within our world to look at. Is that not what is written. Is that not what we pray every morn at fajr?

    Instead of thanking me take the time to think of why this is of no benefit whatsoever. And funny thing you did not respond to honor killings for women accused of being raped? How do you respond to that?

    Islam hides nothing.

    The post has been answered quite sufficiently. If the man pays restitution than there are no visitation/custody issues. If there is child support that is a different ball game. The court sent the decision to family court and not criminal court. But, the laws vary from state to state, as they should.

    In Islam a man pays restitution to the victim.
  5. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    Well said,Sister. I totally agree with your opinion.
    I don't think those who have secular views and never been raped will understand. It is so easy for them to say, "Just forgive the rapists and give them rights to do whatever they want."
    Well,it is not that easy. For victims of rape, eventhough the event only take one night,their sufferings can last FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFES.
    First,they have very traumatic and unforgettable worst experience that can haunt them forever.
    Second,if they are pregnant,they must bear the hardship of pregnancy FOR NINE MONTHS! This can lead to many things : losing a job,losing a dream,stopping from school/college,neglected by family,friends,relatives,etc. They will be in a lot of pain that can lead to DIE in childbirth. Do you still think it is that simple?IT IS THE MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH! If the mother and child survive,the mother must take care of this child as single parent. This is A LIFE TIME ROLE! The mother must think of a way to feed, educate also entertaint the child. They must work but also take care of the child at the same time. What a heavy burden. The burden will be heavier if the child look like the rapist because the child will always remind the victims of that event.
    For the conclusion,it is sufficient to say that RAPE WILL CHANGE THEIR VICTIM'S LIFES DRASTICALLY. It is not that simple crime like theft. If we are robbed,we can search for money again to recover what is lost,but can you recover the rape victims' life 100%,moreover the ones with children?NO WAY!
    And you will agree to increase their sufferings by making the child's dad or the bastard whose life isn't affected by any of sufferings above to claim as the child's father? I can't say anything better than "beastly law"!
    I think the punishment of rapists isn't worth the pain they have caused to the victims. Moreover, the sick men are still allowed to ask for rights to "destroy" the victims' life once more by trying to claim the children as theirs. What a shameless ones and the country or men who agree with them are no better.
    This "beastly law" makes me sure that Islam is indeed the best way of life
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  6. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Once again..if you read what I wrote and drop the emotionalism the victim needs restitution and not child support payments. Child support is from family courts and restitution is from criminal courts. If you ask for child support it comes with visitation rights and custody. And you totally ignored the fact that once the time is served it is over. That is the social contract. That is what is agreed upon.

    Islam states restitution.

    As for the emotional scars that victims bear it takes years and years to heal. They have to forgive themselves first and foremost. And they have to ask for forgiveness from the Creator. This is where peace comes in. If a woman decides to keep the child love does replace the pain. They have to move forward.

    Why does the mother have to remain a single parent. That is irrational.

    Many victims of rape often keep a relationship with the abuser for many years. They may even marry but go back to the rapist and bear more children. The bond is complex. In simple terms the woman becomes the property of the abuser. And that is why the crime is so horrific.



    Once again we are only looking at the decision of one judge's ruling.
  7. Seeking Allah's Mercy
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    Asalamo`Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh.

    BaraakAllahu feeki ukhti.

    I'm hoping these girls have a way out of this mess. Can these monstrous laws be changed?
  8. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Let me spoon feed you: The victim can request her lawyer to make sure the case is in criminal court and not domestic/family court. Then the ruling becomes restitution and not custody. In family court child support...that which a parent pays to maintain the child up to 18 years of age...has entanglements. Visitation...when and how often you see the child..becomes a major issue.

    So the laws can be changed. I wrote that in one of the first responses. The law is elastic. Legal decisions in the US are based on precedent. I am sure there are many organizations that will fight for the rights of the victim and her family. This is a case of fine tuning a law. It is not concrete.

    And in Islam it is restitution in the case of rape.
  9. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    Salam alaykum

    I have a question about this... even if child has born by rape, isn´t child still right to have father? If laws demand father never has any right to meet his child, isn´t it against rights of child?

    Just thinking.
  10. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Much of the uproar of this is stemming from a paper written by Shauna Prewitt ( Georgetown University, 2010). She was raped and conceived. She discovered the custodial laws in many of the states. There are no definitive laws. She is trying to make changes.

    Much opinion is being thrown around. Most children when they feel the curiosity bug seek to find the fathers on their own. It is suggested when a mother hides the facts the children turn their rage onto her.

    A child is innocent and probably glad to be alive.

    In an era where we have television shows whose venue is to find my baby's daddy and women will bring as many as five men for DNA tests to prove fathership, this is the converse.

    A child has the right to know the truth. When the child is told the truth is a deep question. And it should be up to the child to decide who to love. We can not control who a child loves.

    Keep in mind this is not the Islamic answer. It is a just thinking response. Children need the father in ways that differ from the child's need for the mother.
  11. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    Salam alaykum

    thanks about your answer dear Aapa.
  12. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Sister,

    You are taking this thread to a very deep level.

    Whereas the popular view is to feel empathy for the victim, and there is no doubt that the victim deserves at the least empathy. However, should she decided to keep the child well we enter another ball park. The welfare of the child becomes the key issue. And this is where the problems lie. In a world that is governed by secular law
    there is no absolute. Everyone has an opinion and can change the law.

    So we come back to what does the Absolute Law say. And I am simply addressing what does Sharia have to teach us. When we obey the Absolute there is no wronging of anyone. All I know is in the case of rape the victim can demand restitution. But, Islam always puts the welfare of the child first. So I will seek some answers.

    If we do not discuss Islamic law here we are doing a disservice to ourselves.
  13. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum

    I understood that. Thats why I turned this to rights of child.

    Child is innocent what has happened between parents and we have to think also rights of child.

    I made before work with ICR in one conflict and met many raped women... muslim women.
  14. Hajjerr
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    Hajjerr He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram

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    Salam aleykum

    When i made this thread to be honest i was bit angry...because you see dear sister, the men will never know how it is to be a woman...we are the bearers of so many responsabilities and when things go wrong, even if is not our fault, the beares of shame. There are less excuses for women and i am sure you know what i mean.

    But when it comes to the child, i think you are right. The baby has a father, even if is one father of bad character, when he will grow is better for him to know what are his options, the truth is the truth and the lie can not take place of the truth, like Quran says. If you find those answers i will be happy to read them.
    And Allah knows best.
  15. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    Waalaikumsalam,
    I think any human-made law can be changed,but it will be very difficult

    What rights? So you wanna say that a killer have rights over his victim? VERY FUNNY!
    And what law are you talking about?If it is non-Islamic,better not writing here. Just want to remind you that this is Islamic forum,not a common forum.
    Perhaps the children can know about their fathers but in appropriate time,for example if they have reached adulthood so they have been ready mentally and emotionally.
    But I think just know by storytelling is enough. No need to give rights to rapists like they are the real fathers that can visit their "accidental" children anytime they want. It hurts so much. Just imagine someone who destroys your whole life and you hate the most has full access towards your children! How do you feel? Yeah,it SUCKS!
    Alhamdulillah,I am not living in that "sick country". I hope Allah will change that unjust laws and protect all muslimah in the world
  16. Aapa
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    Assalaam alaikum,

    Slow it down sister. Sister Harb is a Believer and a warrior.

    What she is addressing is more than your emotional banter. Who put you in charge of when a child is ready for the truth? Children mature at different times. And one thing I have learned in life is you can not lie to a child.

    As for your claim it will be difficult to change laws..I know you did not read any of my responses. It is done all the time. That is why I wrote that laws are elastic.

    Why are you so negative. Sometimes in life the worst that can happen to you turns out to be very good for you. Women do get over rape. They do find light in their hearts. You move forward. Your life is never destroyed by one event.

    And if a man can humble himself to reach out to a child that he fathered under those circumstances it gives us something to ponder. And in Islam often a rapist will marry the victim.

    Slow it down and think. One of the evils of our society is that we have too many children raised by women without fathers and it takes a toll.
  17. Casiva
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    I am not emotional. It is you who seem to think that every problem is as easy as you think. If sharing children with rapists so easy,why did the woman on article above refuse to do it?
    About the child,I merely judge from children's physchology. The explanation about rape will confuse them and lower their self-esteem,also will make them shock. But if you think telling 8 year old child about rape is suitable,I think I know what kind of person you are : the one I won't come for suggestion.
    Law can be changed,but to change it need much work and take time. If it doesn't,then Sharia will apply easily in all countries that have muslim community. But in fact,it doesn't happen. That's why, according to me, it is difficult.
    Why am I so negative? Well,I won't take any sinful actions positively. It is the same as taking theft positively. What craziness can ensue from that!
    And about your"easy comment" again about how easy is the rape victim's sufferings,I really disagree. If rape is so easily to be forgotten,why doing that is including criminal?Why does Islam punish rapists to death if it is that simple?
    You must learn how to be like one if you want to understand. Now imagine that you are being raped, get pregnant and raise your child in good surrounding but suddenly the rapist claim "his rights" to meet your child as father. Even in imagination,I am burnt with anger!
    But from your post,I can see that it's hard for you to understand all the sufferings the rape victims felt. It makes me wonder : have you been wronged by someone before?Or your world is so beautiful that you don't know that sometimes the misery is so painful and making people want to die right away?
    And I don't think the rapists humble themselves. They just make use of the situation to gain "profit" or take the children after all they have done.
    If you are muslim,you will see that Allah's law is the best. But if you believe in human's law more,even supporting this beastly law, surely I won't follow your lead,and I hope the others won't either. I believe in Islam, not in human's creation,including law.
  18. Um Ibrahim
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    "And in Islam often a rapist will marry the victim."

    whoa hold on there, is this your own opinion or do you have prove? I'm not sure where you got that from. Please don't mix cultural and traditional customs with Islam. Islam protects the honor of women. letting a rapist marry his victim is not protecting or honoring that woman
  19. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Wa`alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh,

    Unfortunately, Appa, one's life can be destroyed by ONE event. Why was the raped woman that you mentioned is so enthusiastic to change the laws? Where did she get the strengths? Because she was raped, first hand. Because her life was destroyed by that ONE event.

    The emotional pain that the victim has to go through is unimaginable. Their dignity was degraded to the lowest level when they were raped. So yeah, just one, short event can do much to one's life. It actually depends on the inner strengths of the victims whether they'll move forward in life or not.

    Are you sure about that? Often times, rapist marry the victim? Being raped and fornication isn't the same thing. As far as I know, often times, in Islaam, those who have committed zina marry each other after they have repented. But rarely/not rape, Appa.

    Very few sane women are able to forgive the rapist AND even become his wife. To be the wife to the man who raped her. There's no such thing as rape in marital relations but how will the woman ever be secured the man won't treat her as harsh when they're married?

    That's why I feel that among the hardest forgiveness to give to someone is to the person who has destroyed one's life completely. It takes a very, very big heart to do that.

    Am not painting the same brush on every men nor am I a feminism activist whatsoever. Many women are single moms today because too many men are lacking in responsibilities, immature even if they're old enough to be called a dad, didn't think of raising a child in the first place or just too focused on work. This is to obvious within the kuffar world but it happens even in the Muslims' world.

    Apart from that, I agree with you that the child has every right to know the father and that we can't force the child to hate/love anyone. It is not a matter for the mother to decide.

    Allaahu musta`an.
  20. sister herb
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    Salam alaykum;

    in my post before I was talking about rights of child. Child has and he/she has to have rights to know his origin. He/She has right to has father as well mother. Maybe in kind of situations father never will raise that child but as well mother has no right to put hate and anger to mind of child against his/hers father because of crime what father has done.

    Other thing, pure islamic, is forgiveness. If man who has raped and made horrible sin, will ask truely forgiveness from Allah, Allah can forgive him. Why we people couldn´t also forgive?

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