Rapists have visitation right in 31 states

Discussion in 'New and Current Affairs' started by Hajjerr, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. uniqueskates
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    uniqueskates Rabbe Zidni Illma

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    Assalaamualaikum..

    To sister Casiva - Pls calm down.. Please..

    To Aapa and Sister Harb - I no where out-rightly made a statement that you and sister harb were fighting nor did i point my finger at you, Aapa. It was a statement for all the people who where commenting on this thread and also on the whole forum[Includes me too]. In my opinion, the thread started sounding more like a battlefield with only difference instead of guns, bullets and missiles, we are using words..

    With all due respect to you both, if i have hurt you and sister harb[or anyone out here].. I do apologise and request you to please forgive me[couldn't sleep yesterday night].. I am just 22 and might not behave properly at times.. And you guys have got all rights to knock some in me..

    9.473 [Bukhari]:
    Narrated Jarir bin `Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind."

    "To err is human, to forgive is divine"

    Peace :)
  2. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    I dedicate this to Aapa and Sister Harb

    [video=youtube;kvzjjgpm1cY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvzjjgpm1cY[/video]


    :girl3:sometimes I wish I was a girl
  3. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    In the end, it is the victims that have to make the choices, whether she can forgive the man or not. We have not gone through what they did. It is a personal choice.

    The victim will usually be abandoned by the family (most of the time), so we, the observer/the friend/the activist can only empathy, give emotional supports and help as much as we can. But not make the choice for them.

    Thank you, brothers for the reminder.
  4. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    Salam alaykum

    after gang raped sisters I made work with tortured people, both men and women. I have to say it was hardest job ever. With them too I asked forgiveness. Forgiveness were only way they get out from they pain. I saw torturing is quite similar as rape, coming some very sensitive area of human.
  5. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    Assalaamu Alaikum,
    Usually in such trauma the question "why me" could arise. Am told, often they are not able to forgive (the situation, the circumstance, even themselves ) and that it takes years to recover. Forgiving the perpetrator, is at a different level. Like Sister Aisya said, choice.

    Its basal and essential for family, community and society to offer the traumatized - emotional support, empathy, time to recover and move ahead in life.

    Law and society has to change, to lay a strong working foundation to prevent these and many other crimes. Hopeful... Ameen.
  6. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    Assalamualaikum,
    Please don't missunderstand me,Brothers/Sisters. I didn't intend to hurt anyone here. I was being stritch so people could see that defending sinners were wrong and not Islamic. The truth must be told whatever it takes. But if you thought my words were offensive,I will try to be calmer from now on

    I think "hate" is still needed in this world,but in certain matters only. For example : do you not hate tyranny or theft or murder or racist or all bad things in the world?Do you see them as tolerable and loveable?If so,I advise you to go to Belarus to feel what is like to be ruled by dictator.
    I,on the other hand,don't think that we should tolerate any sinners because it will create chaos. And Allah doesn't like sinners either. Read this verse:

    'But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: but do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: for Allah loves not those who do mischief.' (Al-Quran 28:77)

    Besides, if He likes sinners,there will be no hell or judgement day.
    And you can't just ask people to not hate anyone,moreover if they have been hurt badly like rapists' victims. It is their rights to hate. If you think that rapists,great sinners,have rights towards anyone they hurt,why can't the victims have rights to hate?What crazy world will prefer sinners to victims?How can we tolerate sinners' rights if we can't tolerate victims' feelings?Please think rationally!

    I didn't say to HATE christians and jews, but to AVOID them,because Allah said in Quran:

    'O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.' (Al-Quran 5:51)

    Verse above told us that we should not befriend them,but doesn't mean we must act violent towards them without reason. We respect them as long as they respect us but not too close. This is not promoting hate, but precautions againts potential enemies. This life is not as innocent and full of love as you think. Perhaps you see them outside as caring and kind people,but do you know what lies inside of their hearts? Do you know who creates Islamohobia worldwide?Do you know who burns Quran? Do you know who oppresses muslims in Palestine?
    So,it is true that we must be compassionate but not lowering our guards down. If not,we will be ridiculed by our enemies and wiped out easily.For example: you know about this person who hates you so much. One day,he invites you to dine in his house. Since you think every people is INNOCENT AND LOVEABLE,you go there,ignoring warning from your friends about the danger. You eat whatever he offers you at the dinner without any suspicion. What happens then?You die because he gives deathly poison to your food. That's what you get if don't take precautions towards someone who has great chance to be your enemy.
    And I must remind you that this is Quran's verse,there is no doubt in it for muslims since who knows better than Allah,who knows what lies in every person's heart?

    If forgiveness is so useful,why is there police,law,court,or punishment?
    If we live according to your forgiveness rule,so the world should be like this:
    -If people rob you,don't be mad or go to police or file a lawsuit. JUST FORGIVE THEM
    -If someone kills your beloved one,don't be mad or go to police or file a lawsuit. JUST FORGIVE THEM
    -If people destroy a building full of innocent people,don't be mad or go to police or file a lawsuit.JUST FORGIVE THEM
    -If your mortal enemy cut both of your legs so you can't walk forever,don't be mad or go to police or file a lawsuit. JUST FORGIVE THEM
    And so on... BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN HURT US,BUT WE CAN'T FIGHT THEM BACK. EVEN WE CAN'T HATE THEM BECAUSE WE ARE TOLD TO BE FORGIVING EVEN IF THEY DESTROY OUR WHOLE LIFE
    Do you think the world will be a better place after that?Yes,if all of us are ANGELS. Sadly we are humans that filled with emotions and desires. This treatment won't make the world become peaceful,but full of chaos because we think all of us will be forgiven NO MATTER WHAT WE HAVE DONE. Bad people will roam everywhere. Is this community that you want?
    Moreover if sinners get rights to access their victims' properties,they will get MOTIVATED to do sinful actions because it benefits them! For example : a drunkard thug loves a beautiful nice girl but he knows she won't be with him. So he rapes her so he can get child from her and later can visit his child,because even government has facilitated his sinful actions! While the nice beautiful girl's life has been destroyed because she has a child outside marriage but who cares for her? Every people around tell her to FORGIVE the rapist! And even the government has FORCED her to SHARE her child with him! What a pity life. But I am sure you won't be touched. Why?Because you only know the word "forgiveness" as solution in every crime and think that every human has angel heart,without realizing that human has a limit to what can be done or not. If the victims can forgive the sinners,it is good. But don't force them or give them doctrine as if "forgiveness" is the only salvation. It is NOT the ONLY way to get past traumatic experience. By getting close to Allah,we can get ultimate peaceful mind. And the government or us SHOULD NOT FACILITATE OR TOLERATE THE SINNERS that can spread crime everywhere!
    Islam's way of life is much better. Islam is compassionate but stritch to sinners. Your hands will be cut if you steal. You will be killed if you kill another person without reason. Sadist? Yes. But what is the purpose?So PEOPLE WON'T DO BAD THINGS. Who wants to forever lose hands or life?
    And Islam is fair: if people wrong you,you have every right to fight back,don't force you to forgive if you can't,even Allah guarantees to grant your wish if you are oppressed by people. And in Islam,SINNERS DON'T HAVE RIGHTS TOWARDS THEIR VICTIMS' PROPERTIES,even if they are blood related. If you kill your father,you can't inherit his property,even if you are his trueborn child. It is according to a hadith by H.R. Nasai. Rasulullah SAW said, "The killer can inherit something from the one killed by him/her."
    And from that,it is clear that the rapists' rights contradict with Islam's rule and if you are a muslim,you have to accept that.
    See,Sharia is fair! Not this love-without-a-limit even to sinners. With Sharia, crime won't roam in society.
    That's it. Hope you will understand
  7. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    We have laws that are just and fair.

    We have to hate that which Allah subhana wa taala hates. Now, by doing that we have to be very strong and firm in our faith. This comes with knowledge of our faith. It takes much time to study this. That is why we have scholars who help us to comprehend the enormity of hating that which Allah subhana wa taala hates. It is a most serious matter.

    Now, on an equally serious matter we have to tread very lightly on sinners. We are all sinners. That is the reason we pray; to wash away our minor sins. Is it not written that Allah subhana wa taala will forgive your sins even if they reach the sky? Is it not in our laws that if a person promises to refrain and begs forgiveness we leave it be?

    Equally, we are to live our lives but not in isolated locked up communities. We are told that Allah subhana wa taala will Judge, as only He can, so we must not keep spite or rancor in our hearts.

    There is a thread about forgiving murderers right now. Here are two Believers who forgave those who took the lives of their blood.

    Sister, do not put limits on the human heart.
  8. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    No,that is WRONG. In Islam, every sinners must be punished severely. You know from my post above that stealing will be punished by cutting hands. Is it lightly? The reason is there in my post above. Besides,Allah is very stritch in punishment. Red verse below:

    'What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.' (Al-Quran 59:7)

    Note to you that adultery (and also rape) will be punished by death if the culprit(s) married. No bargaining or tolerance. No matter how much the culprit (s) beg(s) that he/they will repent,HE/THEY WILL BE STILL STONED TO DEATH. And are not we discussing about rape here?So,why is this still tolerable if even Allah made His law couldn't tolerate it?

    No,human can make judgement as well based on Sharia. Why did Allah mention so many rules in Quran if they are not applicable?
    Allah will make judgement in afterlife about all actions in our lifes,because in the world we will only judged by our wrongdoings,but not the depth of our faith

    It is true that human has limitation. We are not God that has no limitation in everything. Even as forgiving as He can be,He still can't tolerate sinners at certain level.
    As I wrote above,I don't reject forgiveness. But don't expect everybody to do it since everybody's capability to forgive is not the same. And there is no sin to not forgive someone,as even Allah gives us choice to do so or not because He knows human's limitation in forgiving. If human's heart without limitation,then Allah will surely orders us to have to forgive anyone,but it doesn't happen,does it?
    Open your mind. Don't follow westerner's way of thinking. If you are muslim,you will prioritize your religion above anything. Easy punishments and acknowledgement of sinners' rights will make people go astray and go to hell in afterlife
  9. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    Sister, I believe you're neglecting the remainder of the Quranic verses in your argument. Allah gave you the right to punish someone does not mean you would go ahead and carry out such punishments. Allah only gave us the RIGHT. For instance:

    And the male thief and the female thief: then cut (off) the hands of both, as a recompense for what they (both) have earned, as a torture from Allah; and Allah is Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise. Yet whoever repents, even after his injustice, and acts righteously, then surely Allah relents towards (i.e. accepts his repentance) him; surely Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Ever-Merciful. 5:38-39

    You can amputate a thief's hand if you wish. But Allah then says that He is Willing to forgive, so why can't we? You might never know...perhaps sparing the thief's hands may one day come to your benefit. What if that thief becomes a righteous Muslim and builds a Mosque with his hands :)
  10. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    Masya Allah,first you DEFENDED the sinners' rights. Second,you thought that Sharia WAS NOT TO BE APPLIED. What are you up to?Are you really muslim?
    Read this story:

    Fatimah, a lady from Bani Makhzum,
    had committed theft. The Quraish
    became worried, fearing her
    consequent punishment. To prevent
    this from occurring, they sent Usama
    bin Zaid, knowing he was beloved to
    the Prophet s.a.w, to intercede for
    her. Allah's Apostle said, "Do
    you intercede (with me) to violate one
    of the legal punishment of Allah?" Then
    he got up and addressed the people,
    saying, "O people! The nations before
    you went astray because if a noble
    person committed theft, they used to
    leave him, but if a weak person among
    them committed theft, they used to
    inflict the legal punishment on him. By
    Allah, if Fatimah, the daughter of
    Muhammad committed theft,
    Muhammad will cut off her hand!"

    Can you see that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) NEVER said that,"but if Fatimah repent,I will forgive her and not cut her hands!"
    Fatimah (the second one mentioned in the story) was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s dearest daughter. If he could save anyone from cutting hands,Fatimah would be the one! But he didn't say that,so DON'T MAKE INTERPRETATION BY YOUR OWN!
    I think forgiveness of Allah will come AFTER the law applied.
    And it will be funny if Sharia can't be applied just because the sinners say that they repent. NO LAW CAN BE APPLIED THAT WAY,because everytime sinners will get their punishments,they can just say,"I repent!" and they are free without punishment for their crimes! What new craziness is this? Besides who knows there will be liars amongst them?
    No tolerance for sinners in Sharia. Tolerance for sinners is the same evil as what the sinners have done.
    And do you know that defending sinners is a GREAT SIN? Read this hadith:

    "Allah curses people who slaughter animals to whoever besides Allah, Allah curses people who curse their parents, Allah curses people who defend the sinners, and Allah curse people who change this earth's signs." (Muslim)

    So,do you want Allah curse you just for the sake of man-made law and western way of thinking? It is up to you
  11. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    You're using a hadeeth against the Quran. I'm not saying the hadeeth is weak or strong. I'm just saying, there is no book or words that can be greater than the book and Words of Allah. I can see why the Prophet pbuh would punish his daughter. She is the one of the closest humans to Allah's revelation. She knows whats right and whats wrong. If she chose to do wrong, then a major punishment justifies her action.


    But the rest of the world is not like the Daughter of Mohammad. The rest of the world consists of some people who weren't taught right and wrong. Don't give the world that high status of Fatimah (RA)
  12. Abd_Al_Hadi
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    Abd_Al_Hadi لبيك يا الله

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    Misconception: Islam and The Quran orders hands to be cut off for theft

    The verse in question will be given then a discussion will be presented. It should be noted that like all punishments relating to members of a society, they are only enforceable if such a society is governed by the laws of The Quran. In such a society, it is a requirement for believers to provide for those in need [2:177, 2:215, 2:219, 5:89, 59:7].

    The male thief, and the female thief, you shall mark, cut, or cut-off their hands/means as a recompense for what they earned, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise. Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, then God will relent on him. Truly, God is Forgiving, Merciful. [5:38-39]

    The above verses are commonly translated to mean physical cutting off the thief's hand or hands, however whilst this understanding is a theoretical possibility, when all the information is reviewed it is only one of several possibilities, hence the above translation. Firstly, it should be noted that the verse makes clear whoever commits theft but repents after and makes amends, then this is acceptable to God, thus no punishment can be administered in this case. This of course would only apply to those who do this before they have to be tried and found guilty. To prove this, see the verse below in which being punished is contrasted to relenting:

    There are some who await God's decree whether He will punish them or relent on them. God is All Knower, All Wise. [9:106]

    And how repenting and making amends shows a true repentance, thus reinforces the notion that a true/sincere repentance is accepted:

    And whoever repents and takes corrective action, certainly he turns toward God with true repentance. [25:71]

    The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 5:38 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, and with the exception of 59:5 and possibly 69:46 all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of "cutting off relationship" or "ending" [2:27, 3:127, 6:45, 7:72, 8:7, 9:121, 13:25, 15:66, 22:15, 27:32, 29:29, 56:33].

    The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off [5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31] and metaphorical cutting off [2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53] as well as physically cutting/marking [12:31, 12:50]. It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 5:38.

    Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner [some examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1], and often has a meaning of power/means. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.

    Thus, it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in three alternative ways, (1) cutting off their hands, or (2) cutting or marking their hands, or (3) cutting their means to steal, or cutting their hands from committing the crime. It is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending on the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty.

    It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.

    They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
    He said, "What shall be its recompense, if you are not truthful?"
    They said, "Its recompense is that he who has it in his bag, then he is its recompense. Like that do we recompense the wrongdoers."
    [12:73-75]

    Furthermore, 12:79 makes it clear that Joseph (described in 6:84 as one of the guided and a good doer) was acting in accordance with God's law in detaining only the one guilty of theft:

    Joseph said: “God forbid that we would detain anyone except he whom we found our belongings with. Indeed, we would then be wrong doers.” [12:79]

    Thus, one possible meaning of 5:38 is to apply it in the manner provided by Joseph's example.

    One other potential problem is created if 5:38 means to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief, when we consider what were to happen if a person had no hands or had been punished before hence had no more hands to cut/mark or cut off.
    Also, when lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment [24:2], but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many consider this punishment to be worse. This adds to the possibility that it should not be taken to mean this.

    Lastly, whatever interpretation is chosen, it is important to keep in mind the recurring theme of equivalence in The Quran, thus the punishment should be proportionate to the crime:

    And those who, when gross injustice befalls them, they seek justice. The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers. [42:40]

    To conclude, when all the above information is taken into account, it is clear that to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief is not the only possible understanding and taking into account the law of equivalence would perhaps only be reserved for significant theft which led to harming others, hence harming the perpetrator. If a Muslim in authority, like Joseph was, were to apply the punishment for theft like Joseph did, then they would be following the example of one of the guided and a good doer, as stated by The Quran.

    http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/
  13. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    You are wrong. Quran and hadith compliment at each other. We should see the application of Quran in what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did. And as far as I know Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never canceled Sharia just because the sinners repented.Also The Four Rightly Guided Caliph (Abu Bakar,Umar,Uthman,and Ali) did the same thing.
    So,you will say that someone has to be knowledgeable to be punished? No,that is not right. Everyone who commits crime must be punished severely. If we apply what you said, everyone will play fool so they won't be punished. Another problem. Besides,no hadith or Quran that support your argument
  14. Casiva
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    Casiva A Servant of Allah

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    Your reference is not valid at all. I have visited it and seems that it was not created by muslims. Read this sentences I took in their introduction page:

    "For those interested in sincerely seeking the truth, we have prepared an easy to read and verify list using the book that Muslims regard as a divine guidance and final revelation to humanity: The Quran (sometimes referred to as 'The Koran')."

    It is like the words used to judge another people,not themselves. If it is made by muslims,it will use the world "we"not "muslims". Besides,many misleadings and misinterpretations there. We can't take it as the the truth. Besides,I don't know who is the administrator. Receiving guidance from anonymous?I doubt that!
    I still in my conclusion that Sharia must be applied and we can not tolerate sinners just like rapists,moreover give them rights! That is sickening!
  15. Abu-Talha
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    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

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    the child of rape dosnt belong to the father, rape is zina with force for that person, and the child dont belong to him, he is not the father of the child, child belongs to the mother, this is well know hukm-ruling in islam
  16. Aisya al-Humaira
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    Aisya al-Humaira الحمدلله على كل حال

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    Sister Casiva, I agree that Sharia must be applied if it was a Muslim that raped and happened in a Muslims' country but the laws established that were posted by the OP happened in a non-Muslim country. Surely we can't expect them to apply the Sharia laws, no?

    And yes, it's true that as Muslims, we believe that the Sharia Laws that comes from Allaah is the best punishment to carry out to the rapists, criminals, murderers, thieves. The laws of hudood, qisas and ta`dhir are there for a reason, for the benefits of the Muslims. As in the case of a murder, if the victims' family are able to forgive the murderer (as sometimes, a murder can occur unintentionally), then the family can request diyah from the murderer.

    It, however, does not mean we can simply neglect the laws of Allaah and merely give forgiveness because the victims has rights to want the rapists to be punished. The laws of Allaah also serve as a lesson so that others won't even have the guts to commit the crime, providing that the punishment is done in public.

    But one thing we must believe is that if the rapists or all the crimes done in this world do not receive the equal punishment here, Allaah The Best Judge and The Most Just shall judge every single small crime in the Hereafter.
  17. Abu-Talha
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    Abu-Talha Brother in Deen

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    i dont think that is honest and from adab-good maners to change the meaning of the thread wich was made by sister-may Allah reward her with good, she just whanted to show how evil and unjust are in general the nonmuslim contries, thats all

    if somebody whants to speak about something, let he/she make their own thread about the issue wich they think its beneficial to talk, no need to put obstacles betwen muslims heart with talk wich dosnt bring benefit but just anger and misconception
  18. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam alaikum,

    In the US IF a man has to give child support in some states he may get visitation and custody rights. The matter is financial.

    Now, Quran is absolute. We qualify hadiths.

    Rape does not belong to zina in Islam.

    We need a thread on forgiveness.
  19. azad.ahmed
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    azad.ahmed Junior Member

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    Assalamualaikum,

    if you are talking about USA only then rapist in USA already have too much rights . 54%-60% sexual assault are not reported to police , among reported case there is an arrest rate 25% and in total arrest cases very few percentage convict in the court. If we add "FORGIVENESS" part then Allah knows what will be the result.....may be it becomes acceptable like marriage.
    [​IMG]
    http://www.rainn.org/images/get-information/Statistics/about_victims.jpg
    http://www.rainn.org/images/get-information/Statistics/sa-statistics-2012.jpg
  20. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assaalaam alaikum,

    Brother,

    If you had taken the time to read the posts you would know this has already been discussed.

    To reiterate: the laws in concern are specifically about money. When someone supports another they have rights. This is about money.

    Now everyone get off your high horses and go and pray.

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