Assalaam alaikum,
You are not convincing.
And the drug argument is not valid.
Two men who kill are not counted as killers necessarily. Please think about the case of the one who kills in a just manner.
There is no aggression in zina.
Sister,
I am not rejecting anything. If I were a person contemplating to revert to Islam I would need decisive definitions. If the rulers of Islam are men who have little regard for women they are unfair. Sister, why don't you dig up the differences in the punishments for zina and rape. They are different. If the punishment is different than the core of the sin is different. Or they would not be in two different categories. The fact that rape is under the same umbrella as robbery determines that it is a crime against a person. Zina is not robbery. It is not a crime against another.
Rape by definition is not limited to the sexual act. It is an act of violence. Zina is not violent, unless the parties are into S&M etc. but the choice is to seek sexual pleasure for BOTH parties using violence. Rape is the act of an individual against another being; the victim has no choice.
But, I am through.
As for those that are throwing shame on me. How can I feel shame when I want objective authoritative answers to the questions I have posed. How is rape illegal sexual intercourse in the same context as zina. That is apples and oranges. They are both fruit. The context of rape is not the same as zina.
:salam2:
You are our Sister and we are family so we can neither make our Sister feel bad or shameful. If we are not agreeing then the fault is in my way of explaining and not in my Sister’s intellect or grasp of the truth so let’s be clear about that.
This is a public form and the point of it is to have an open and candid discussion and not to shoot people down so Insha’Allah I hope that you will reconsider your decision and continue to enlighten your brother and discuss further.
I was hoping that you would have read Fatawa which I originally quoted and everything around it but in any case here is my understanding from it.
All crimes of sexual perversion in Islam outside of legitimate marital contact are classed as “Zina” but then they are sub classified (pertinent to our discussion) and linguistically defined as follows:
“Normal” Zina: Pardon the word normal but this is consensual
Zina Bil-Jab’r (Jareematul-Ightisaab): Coerced and forced sexual encounter i.e. RAPE
The similarities in punishments are
firstly that the offender(s) are punished via Hadd which requires four (4) witnesses and that the prosecution,
secondly collection of evidence, processing and due legal process is the responsibility of the Islamic state and
thirdly In the absence of minimum evidence for Hadd (i.e. four witnesses etc) Tazeer is awarded based on circumstantial evidence.
The differences in punishments are between “Normal” Zina & Zina Bil-Jab’r (Jareematul-Ightisaab) (rape) are as follows:
Firstly, Victim faces no criminal punishment versus in “Normal” Zina both parties are punished because it’s consensual.
Secondly, Victim gets financial compensation (in Meh’r) versus in “Normal” Zina there is no compensation because its consensual
Thirdly, If the victim was abducted or forced from his/her place of living then additional charge of highway banditry (and terrorism) is applied and the implementation of Hadd for this charge only requires 2 witnesses (and not four) and then the second Hadd of Zina is applied (which requires 4 witnesses)
Fourthly, If the required witnesses are not present then circumstantial evidence (DNA, finger prints, medical tests) is taken into account and Taz’eer applied.
To put Islamic Shariah aside and explain this to you in legal terms, consider the umbrella of “manslaughter” . In general if you kill someone and the evidence is less culpable then murder then prosecution will charge a person with “manslaughter”. But, is shooting dead a person at point blank range the same as running over a pedestrian while driving under the influence of Alcohol?
Off course not so this shows that there are degrees of “manslaughter” and wherever there is a loss of life legally the charge of “manslaughter” can be used but then it has categories and subdivisions based on circumstances.
Similarly, sexual contact outside of marriage is “Zina” in general but then the Shariah clearly distinguishes casual sex from rape and also adds the charges of abduction etc to this despicable and heinous crime.
So my Sister in Islam, I request that you zoom out and overlook the categorization of rape as “Zina” and look further and you will clearly spot differences some of which I have summarized for you.
Don't think that Tazeer is leniency otherwise you will have a rude awakening!
As Gandhi said to the British at the time of his last imprisonment, “I hope that our disagreements won’t stand between us forever” :shake:
:shake:
Finally, I know that when it comes to paedophilia, rape and other such as despicable acts we would like to come up with our painful punishment but the Shariah has stipulated “Hadd” in the Qur’aan & Sunnah and Taz’eer is upto whatever has been legislated by the legislative Shura of the Islamic state. Generally, all crimes of such nature are punishment by “Firing Squad” (through Ta'zeer) and where Hadd is applicable then it is applied.
Mullah Omar of Taliban came to power after killing a rapist and hanging his dead body on a tree because he was powerful and the village were powerless to charge let alone apprehend and punish the victim and in this case Tazeer was more painful then Hadd.