Special Forces of the Israeli Army attacked The Freedom Theatre in Jenin Refugee Camp

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Isra

aka Tree2008
Asalamoalaikom wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu. . .

You know we should not forget Allaah as our Lord and Muhammad peace be upon him as our messenger. None would want you to talk with this language. He may be jew and with somewhat twisted Ideas, doesn't make him any less human.

Follow Allah's command, follow the sunnah of the prophet pace be upon him. Be polite. He's not too much a stranger. He's the follower of Prophet Musa (peace be upon him).

Besides it's ramadhan coming. May be use it to practice patience =)

Wa alaikome salam

I totally agree with this post by Sister Seeking Allahs Mercy. Very good reminder to us all. Things can get very heated in a debate such as this but we must always maintain our composure and manners because we are Muslims in service to Allah above anything else. Jazakallah khairan sister and may Allah reward you for reminding us. Ameen.

wa salam
 

rachamim

Banned
JenGiove: It is impossible to discern emotion outside of fiction. The written word is interpreted according to one's cultural and social context, even their mood of the moment. If you imagine yourself able to do so, as opposed to merely trying to defend brash and erroneous assumptions, you are sadly mistaken.

You portray yourself as an educated person and yet you seem unable to even grasp the concept of "peoplehood." Are the Kurds a "people" or a "religion"? Kurds can be Muslim, Christian, Jewish OR Yazidi, and yet no matter their "religion," they are part and parcel of the Kurdish "people." Israel is the nation of the Jewish PEOPLE, NOT RELIGION. It has no official religion. All religions are given protection by law and the right to worship is a personal choice. I do hope that this helps you to understand that very important distinction.

"People you don't know" referred to ME. See how your assumptions colour your views here?

"Labeling all Israelis as Nazis.": Now you are playing word games. You made a blanket statement. You didn't qualify it by saying "some Israelis," or even "the Israeli Government." You said "Israel." At least be adult enough to stand by your views, or mistakes, whatever the case may be. That you now qualify it in your last post shows you acknowledge your failure to do so before, so again, please stop the games. The adult thing would be to say, "I didn't mean all Israelis but rather the Israeli Govt." You end up doing it anyway while insisting I was wrong to see your first comment as a blanket statement. You said it, you wear it.

The Nazis did not act in the "name of religion." They were fascists and fascism elevates the state as a deity. Again, "peoplehood," in that case the fictitious Aryan Race. Israel on the other hand does not aim to take over the region in a quest of racial supremacy. It merely wishes to exist unmolested. Quite a difference, to say the least.

"Freedom Theater is inside Jenin Camp." Correct, it certainly is.

"How then can the theater be built upon public land?": You imagine that Jenin Camp is owned by an individual or specific entity? The land upon which it sits was Jordanian Government Land vis a vis the Jordanian Annexation of the entire so called "West Bank." In 1967 Israel defeated Jordan and captured the land. Jordan then relinquished all claims on the land during subsequent Armistice Talks. As such the entire camp became Israeli land. Israel, under UNRWA negotiation, then allowed camp residents to register parcels of land, IF a residence existed on said parcel. Lands without structures were then frozen as Public Lands upon which schools, clinics, etc were to be built.

The founder of the theater, with his mother, squatted a piece of Public Land as a political statement. They then constructed a theater there. Israel allowed it to transpire with the proviso that the theater be solely devoted to cultural pursuits. Of course nothing the founder did was ever devoid of politics but he couched it in art and so it exists until today despite vehement opposition from most of the camp. He was murdered after putting on "Animal Farm," and having Muslims dress up in pig costumes. This of course created a furor.

"In the US unused buildings aren't destroyed.": Absolutely wrong. Eminent Domain? Moreover, any building constructed without permits is destroyed post haste if the builder is unable to bring it into code and gain the permits after the fact. Israel is actually more lenient than your nation.

"In what ways does Israel provide for the needs of camp residents?": First, by camp you probably envision tents behind a fence. It is a regular town indistinguishable from Jenin Proper, save that UNRWA designated it a "camp" in 1949. In 1948 the average lifespan was 48. Today it is 74. A single high school existed for all of Gaza and the so called "West Bank." Today 7 universities exist. Not 1 hospital existed. Today 42 exist. Literacy was 9%, today it is 96 %. Electricity was non-existent and only 3% had running water. Today both utilities are enjoyed by more than 95% of the population. All this was from Israel. There are actually more universities and hospitals from non-Israeli sources as well, but you asked for Israeli.

"The Wiki on Communism.": First, Wiki is entirely consumer generated content and as such unreliable for factual research. However, I will point out that Communism also abhors religion, including Islam. Naturally you can see why most Muslims despise Communism.

"Who said anything about monetary support of HAMAS?": More word games. Give it a break.

"How is HAMAS' 'genocidal programme any different from what Israel is doing in Gaza?": Israel abandoned 100% of Gaza in 2005. Since then it has only even looked at it when attacked. Considered to be the world's most capable military, Gaza being the most densely populated land in existence and yet, Cast Lead killed less than 1,700 (HAMAS" inflated figures). Where is genocide? Surely, out of 2 million people, Israel would have killed more than 1,700 if it were aiming for genocide? I mean, do you think about these things before repeating them? How many Israelis have walked onto Gazan busses with bomb belts? Blown up souks? Pizza cafes? Launched 2 meter rockets without guidance systems?

HAMAS states that it aims to kill all Jews, everywhere. Israel on the other hand merely responds when attacked. Just a tad bit different.

"Hospital 500 feet from the gate.": WRONG. The nearest Israeli hospital is 16 kilometers (Soroka) from Gaza. Again, just a little different.

"Israel restricts food and medical supplies into Gaza.": WRONG. Never, on either. What WAS restricted was luxury goods and non-essential items. Israel mannned Gazan Crossings even under mortar fire to ensure that no less than 77 lorries full of food and medicine crossed into Gaza each and every day- and that was merely Israeli donayted goods. UNRWA, Oxfam, various Islamic charities and dozens of foreign governments ALSO donated on a daily basis. Evidently it will suprise you but at the height of the Blockade Gaza had a water park, 5 Star hotel, Michelin rated cafes, equestrian club, golf courses, and all were functioning. HAMAS and its supporters are quite efficient at generating propaganda.

"Children needing medical care were kept from leaving Gaza.": Soroka Hospital, only 1 of several serving Gazans, provided free medical care to literally thousands of people of all ages all during the Blockade. This despite the danger it caused...like the 19 year old Gazan woman who burned her face and chest when a propane tank exploded. She was taken to Soroka and her life was saved. Then, after returning home she was given an xpress pass to ease crossing out of Gaza. She then used this pass in an attempt to blow up Soroka's outpatient centre as a "Suicide Bomber." An IDF checkpoint stopped her. Even with that Israel continued helping others.

"Israel restricted essential building supplies.": Concrete is used to build re-inforced bunkers, rocket launch pads, smuggling tunnels and of course HAMAS infrastructure. Israel didn't deny concrete. It merely insisted that the UNRWA guarantee that it wouldn't be diverted by HAMAS. UNRWA agreed, HAMAS did NOT. HAMAS refused to allow the UNRWA to control distribution of cement. Of course that translates as, "Israel denies Gazans cement" but most are sophisticated enough to recognise the HAMAS propaganda machine.

"Someone who claims to know more about Islam than most Muslims should know that Islam forbids the killing innocent civilians.": I do know. Why would you imagine otherwise? I also know that some Salafi rationalise the killing of non-combatants as Collateral Damage. Islam is not a monolithic entity with a single outlook. You have everything from Ahmadiyyah and Alavi to Suffiyah and the outlook amongst them is incredibly diverse. If you would like to discuss Salafi exegis I would love to do so.

"Strict meaning of Salafi...": You are an English speaking American. "Salafist" in your world means what it means. I do not drive language currency. If you wish to enter into a theological discussion I can oblige you but my meaning was quite clear. Assuming you are naïve about Gaza and its geopolitical climate I will work under the assumption that you really have no clue, as opposed to playing silly word games. In Gaza the Salafi have certain characteristics; all aim to re-establish the Caliphate, all abhor HAMAS as corrupt and worldly, all advocate the use of violence in furtherance of their agenda. In the Summer of 2010 they attempted to overthrow HAMAS, with the culmination being the slaughter of nearly 400 Salafi by HAMAS in and aroung Khunis (Younis) Camp. Thousands were jailed and tortured and yet the movement grows. In fact is was a Salafi faction that kidnapped the Italian ISM activist before hanging him 2 months ago.

"Non-combatants doesn't appear anywhere in the UN Definition by Academic Consensus on Terrorism...": How can you use a paper from 1994 to understand something that wasn't even adopted until 1998? Remember "hubris"? Still, "general public" is synonymous with "non-combatants" in military and geopolitical terms. Are you sure you are really American? It would be like you educating me on an issue in Arabic. How bizarre.

As for your last phrase, "Seek a fight," how typical, how sad.
 

rachamim

Banned
SeekingAllah'sMercy: "If what you say is true..." I have used mine and my family's names so that you, and anyone who wishes, can easily research the validity. In fact the same massacrres took place in 11 other towns on the same day, including Gaza City. All 11 towns were Ethnically Cleansed of Jews.

"Jews only recognised Israel as their land after the Holocaust.": My family lived there since at least the 9th Century so no, wrong. Zionism formally began in 1878. The Holocaust took place from 1939 to 1945. You are wrong. Jews have continously lived in Israel since at least 1600 BCE/BC, that is 3,500 years. We pray towards it, we bury our dead facing it, we build our homes facing it and each day we voice our wish to live in our homeland as we recite our prayers. The Jewish connection to Israel has nothing to do with Nazis though the Holocaust does show why we need our own homeland.

"The leader of the Zionist Movement...": You mean Theodore Herzl. He wasn't the "leader" nor did he found it. It began ideologically in the 1780s. By 1878 there were Zionist villages in Israel, 20 years before Herzl joined the movement. Israel is the historic Jewish Homeland. Jews like my family never left the land. In the 3rd Century CE/AD the Romans overran our nation. Since then vatious invaders ruled it but until thre 18th Crntury CE/AD it had always had a Jewish majority.

Since we lost control of our land in the 3rd Century we have always worked to regain control. Zionism is simply the belief that Jews have a right and responsibility to determine their own futures in their own land. It is not elitist or prejudicial. Just as France is a country for Frenchmen, while allowing non-French to co-exist, so does Israel allow co-existence with non-Jews. Unfortunately some Arabs refuse to co-exist, despite their already having 21 nations.

"White Phosphorous as a Chemical Weapon.": Please research the issue. You are wrong for reasons explained. See, a Chemical Weapon is designed to hurt people. White Phosphorous is only used for the reasons described. If an Israeli took a shell of White Phosphorous and purposefully fired into a group of people there would be no survivors.

Thank you for advising others to respect my humanity. It is sad that it was even neccessary and yet it was a bright and hopeful wish.
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
White phosphorous in Gaza 2009

wp-gaza-2009-image01.jpg


large_Israeli-Shell-White-Smoke-Gaza-Jan3-09.jpg


I have stories from Gazans what it looks when it came from sky.

You don´t want to read them.
 

rachamim

Banned
It is being used for "Smoke" in your photos. It is neccessary to avoid HAMAS Anti-Tank Teams. If we did not use it we would have to flatten entire neighbourhoods to root out the Teams. In the end it saves Gazan lives.
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
It is being used for "Smoke" in your photos. It is neccessary to avoid HAMAS Anti-Tank Teams. If we did not use it we would have to flatten entire neighbourhoods to root out the Teams. In the end it saves Gazan lives.

How using white phosporous in civilian areas can save lives of civilians?
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Warriors of Allah do not recede from the battleground.

I am reminded of the pious and righteous brother who threw down his dates.

No-one has answered my question. I posted a question on a similar thread, if you have an answer just PM please. I am shy about repeating my question. And the other thread was closed. However, my question remains unanswered.
 

Wannabemuslim

Junior Member
It is being used for "Smoke" in your photos. It is neccessary to avoid HAMAS Anti-Tank Teams. If we did not use it we would have to flatten entire neighbourhoods to root out the Teams. In the end it saves Gazan lives.

:salam2: lol, wut?

Im sitting here reflecting on what you where trying to say,

You see there arnt just two options for israel, like you seem to think its either you gas them or you flatten entire villages, thats a really narrow minded perspective, What about leaving them alone?

Hamas is because of the israeli state, and many of the problems in the middle east are also from israel, wouldnt less people be killed with the peace full de-stablishment of israel?

Im beggining to think why your comming to this forum, its main porpus is to learn about islam, im begining to wonder if these political threads should be allowed.
 

Isra

aka Tree2008
Assalaam walaikum,

Warriors of Allah do not recede from the battleground.

I am reminded of the pious and righteous brother who threw down his dates.

No-one has answered my question. I posted a question on a similar thread, if you have an answer just PM please. I am shy about repeating my question. And the other thread was closed. However, my question remains unanswered.

Wa alaikome salam

Dear sister Aapa considering there are 56,175 threads and 428,946 posts with you yourself having 6,844 posts according to the main page stats would you mind please giving us a clue as to which thread you posted your question in?

wa salam
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Brother,

He has no understanding of why he is coming to the forum.

Please allow me to explain.

He is of the age that marks a man, a man.
He is confused, thus in exile, about what life has given him.
He is begining to see that the duyna took from him but sold him short. The paradise on Earth that they had promised, they did not mention to him, was for themselves. He was just a tool.
He is of no use to those he served.

He is going to attack us on the level that the duyna had sold Muslims to him.

He is trying to tell me..my brothers in faith, those who Allah loves are going to kill me. Please!!!

I urge you to sit and read the Quran. And think of the mere fact that in Islam you have just reached full maturity. You are now at the perfect time in your life to serve Allah. And that which is with Allah is Better.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

I apologize for the number of threads. It was a very recent response to a thread on the Taliban. I posted a question as a ps. The thread is closed. Sorry.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Wa alaikome salam

I totally agree with this post by Sister Seeking Allahs Mercy. Very good reminder to us all. Things can get very heated in a debate such as this but we must always maintain our composure and manners because we are Muslims in service to Allah above anything else. Jazakallah khairan sister and may Allah reward you for reminding us. Ameen.

wa salam

Jazakallah khair wa barakallah fiki ya ukhti! Shaitan is always around us and it becomes very easy to forget that we are MUSLIMS i.e those who have submitted. Submitted to everything Allah ordered and everything the prophet of Allah taught.

SeekingAllah'sMercy: "If what you say is true..." I have used mine and my family's names so that you, and anyone who wishes, can easily research the validity. In fact the same massacrres took place in 11 other towns on the same day, including Gaza City. All 11 towns were Ethnically Cleansed of Jews.

"Jews only recognised Israel as their land after the Holocaust.": My family lived there since at least the 9th Century so no, wrong. Zionism formally began in 1878. The Holocaust took place from 1939 to 1945. You are wrong. Jews have continously lived in Israel since at least 1600 BCE/BC, that is 3,500 years. We pray towards it, we bury our dead facing it, we build our homes facing it and each day we voice our wish to live in our homeland as we recite our prayers. The Jewish connection to Israel has nothing to do with Nazis though the Holocaust does show why we need our own homeland.

"The leader of the Zionist Movement...": You mean Theodore Herzl. He wasn't the "leader" nor did he found it. It began ideologically in the 1780s. By 1878 there were Zionist villages in Israel, 20 years before Herzl joined the movement. Israel is the historic Jewish Homeland. Jews like my family never left the land. In the 3rd Century CE/AD the Romans overran our nation. Since then vatious invaders ruled it but until thre 18th Crntury CE/AD it had always had a Jewish majority.

Since we lost control of our land in the 3rd Century we have always worked to regain control. Zionism is simply the belief that Jews have a right and responsibility to determine their own futures in their own land. It is not elitist or prejudicial. Just as France is a country for Frenchmen, while allowing non-French to co-exist, so does Israel allow co-existence with non-Jews. Unfortunately some Arabs refuse to co-exist, despite their already having 21 nations.

"White Phosphorous as a Chemical Weapon.": Please research the issue. You are wrong for reasons explained. See, a Chemical Weapon is designed to hurt people. White Phosphorous is only used for the reasons described. If an Israeli took a shell of White Phosphorous and purposefully fired into a group of people there would be no survivors.

Thank you for advising others to respect my humanity. It is sad that it was even neccessary and yet it was a bright and hopeful wish.

Brother, if you take into consideration the genocide committed by your armies against my Muslim family, I believe I would have been insulting and abusing you to just let out the feeling and be fair. But being Muslim, I'm left with no choice but to prove what I am and following my Prophet peace be upon him. You are a Jew. Follower of Musa and Haroon (may peace and blessings be upon them). The Qur'aan and sunnah of the prophet peace be upon him teaches me to show you respect.

You may be telling the truth. But I have no resources to prove it to myself that it's true. We don't believe in news unless it's proven to be true. If you say Google. You should know we don't trust Google. That's why I said "If". Other than that if that's true it's RIDICULOUSLY INHUMAN and PATHETIC! Like I said no less than the Israel forces. If it's not true, you'll face your trail on the day of resurrection.

You keep on saying your land, your land, your land. Akhi no land belongs to no one except Allaah. If you are a true mono atheist you must have no issue over this. Exactly what is it about that place that it makes it yours? Christians will say it's theres as the Christ was born and lived there. We Muslims will say it's ours as we follow Ibraheem and Musa and Haroon (peace and blessing be upon them) and Isa the Christ, that was their land. This is no excuse to KILL kids and women! Blockading them and depriving them of most basic human rights.

As shown in the Video WP burns and hurts. It is not a legal weapon, you should know better about it than me. Secondly, lets just say for argument sake that it is for smoke. In a well populated area, you believe it's alright to use such a thing?

I may not have issues with you being a Jew, as I or anyone else for that matter, shouldn't. But you'll fine EVERY single person on this forum having issues with you for supporting Jews occupation of Palestine.
 

Isra

aka Tree2008
Assalaam walaikum,

I apologize for the number of threads. It was a very recent response to a thread on the Taliban. I posted a question as a ps. The thread is closed. Sorry.

Wa alaikome salam

Ok I followed the bread crumbs and went to your question. I am at a loss for words to be honest. I mean really sister REALLY? Do you seriously want to bring that particular question from a closed thread to this one? Can we please move on?! Using some of the words I have read you say a million times "lets stick to the topic at hand please"!!!

The day before Ramadan lets not try to incite an arguement can we please?

wa salam
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Assalaam walaikum,

Someone answer this to me:

Everyone here feels that is perfectly acceptable for a man who has killed innocent Muslims to be most welcomed. We are willing to humiliate our elder sister to keep the presence of a man who hates that which we Believe?

We have offered him belief. He has not accepted. What is going on here?

That poor man is not even an Ashkenazi.
 

Isra

aka Tree2008
Assalaam walaikum,

Someone answer this to me:

Everyone here feels that is perfectly acceptable for a man who has killed innocent Muslims to be most welcomed. We are willing to humiliate our elder sister to keep the presence of a man who hates that which we Believe?

We have offered him belief. He has not accepted. What is going on here?

That poor man is not even an Ashkenazi.

Wa alaikome salam

Dear sister Aapa EVERYONE on this website has supported you to the point of even stretching the limits of being a good Muslim themselves BUT when you are right you are right and if you are wrong you are wrong! Im sorry but sister Seeking Allahs Mercy was pointing something out to you about manners which I KNOW you are big on having good manners! It is not against you sister so please dont take it personally! It is our duty as Muslims to point out mistakes that our brothers or sisters are doing.

Nobody is defending or welcoming with open arms someone who has killed innocent Muslims! We as Muslims should be able to argue our point and debate our issues without being disrespectful to another human being regardless of their history or religion!

Nobody is trying to humiliate you dear sister! We are simply trying to remind you that we Muslims must remain within the boundaries of Islam when interacting with other humans regardless of their ethnicity, religious affiliation or personal background. Its very simple........say whatever you wish as your opinions are very much appreciated however you must say it with respect regardless of your personal feelings in the matter.
 

rachamim

Banned
SisterHarb: "How can using White Phosphorous in civilian areas save civilian livesv": I already explained. I will explain once more. When Israeli soldiers and vehichles enter Gaza, Gaans attack them. White Phosphorous is used as "Smoke" so that Gazans cannot see Israeli soldiers or vehichles. It creates a thick fog. If we did not use it we would need to drop bombs on entire neighbourhoods to remove the threat of attack and the cover used by attackers. If we aerial bomb, or artillery bomb a neighbourhood, thousands of civilians will die. Instead we fire a burst of White Phosphorous which creates a thick fog allowing us to move more safely.
 

rachamim

Banned
WannaBeMuslim: "Israel doesn't just have 2 options, why doesn't it exercise the 3rd option and leave Gaza alone?": Israel abandoned 100% of Gaza in September of 2005. It DID leave Gaza alone. Unfortunately HAMAS seized power in a bloody coup against the PA in June of 2007. Israel withstood, literally, 3,000 rocket and mortar attacks since the coup, in addition to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier on Israeli soil, 2 other attempted kidnappings on Israeli soil, and literally more than 120 attempted and successful "Suicide Bombings." Israel did not antagonise Gaza. It sat on its hands for more than 3 years before attacking. Gaza.

If 2 meter long rockets carrying 24 kilo payloads of explosive crashed into your neighbourhood on a daily basis would you "do nothing"? Would you want your government to ignore it?

"HAMAS only exists because of Israel, therefore if Israel ceased to exist there wouldn't be a problem.": Are you a refugee? Jews have been stateless for 1,700 years. Pardon us if we wish to have a tiny sliver of land, land that has only EVER held. Jewish nations by the way. If a new ethnic group moved into your town and wanted you to leave, you would simply oblige them?

As for your last question, I am responding to THIS particular thread because of views such as yours. A diversity of opinion is not evil, nor is it haram. What is haram is the maltreatment of fellow humans so perhaps you would be better served asking yourself why you posted here. If you don't wish to discuss political issues there are of course plenty of religion centered threads. Food for thought.
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
SisterHarb: "How can using White Phosphorous in civilian areas save civilian livesv": I already explained. I will explain once more. When Israeli soldiers and vehichles enter Gaza, Gaans attack them. White Phosphorous is used as "Smoke" so that Gazans cannot see Israeli soldiers or vehichles. It creates a thick fog. If we did not use it we would need to drop bombs on entire neighbourhoods to remove the threat of attack and the cover used by attackers. If we aerial bomb, or artillery bomb a neighbourhood, thousands of civilians will die. Instead we fire a burst of White Phosphorous which creates a thick fog allowing us to move more safely.

Israelis so called solders (actually terrorist) killed civilians and even they own soldiersin Gaza 2008 - 2009. Before Gaza they had killed over 2000 civilians in Lebanon using also white phosporous, cluster bombs againts civilians, DIME and DU weapons.


Don´t try to come here tell lies.
 

rachamim

Banned
SisterHarb: "Are you a Zionist?" Absolutely.

"300 kids died in Gaza." Actually 130 but even one is too much. However Israel didn't want OR try to kill children. They died during a military operation against HAMAS. HAMAS on the other hand HAS killed Israeli children DELIBERATELY. This is why the military operation took place.
 
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